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Generally I don't have that problem at my table. Sometimes we get side tracked, but not usually. In my experience (every edition but 4th) the pace the DM uses sets the tone for the game, especially so in combat. If the DM is focused usually the players are, or can be made to be. If you ask several times what someone is doing and they refuse to give an answer I often will say, "thats fine, we'll put you in delay" trust me if the entire party wants to hang out thinking over what they want to do, the bad guys will not be so indecisive.
Combat in 3.5/pfrpg moves pretty slow in my group. If your experience is different, I'd be interested to see how you keep it moving along.
Fight from horseback? Going downhill, on Greased ice, with Haste.
Combat in 3.5/pfrpg moves pretty slow in my group. If your experience is different, I'd be interested to see how you keep it moving along.
For what it is worth, I've played with the same group for a long long time, and they're fairly respectful about moving the game along too. If anything slows the game down it is the amount of planning they will put into a situation. Most of my players have a print out of all spells and options in advance so there is very little looking through books. For example one, person plays a cleric and she can never remember her spells, and powers. So she keeps a sheet of her memorized spells (copy and pasted from the PDF).
Otherwise I keep an initiative sheet. That helps keep me focused as a DM, and eveyone knows when their turn is coming up. I rarely run into an issue of having to wait for someone to decide on their action.
I also try to keep my group to under 5 players.
We use a 30 second timer at the start of each players turn. It's reasonable to expect a player to have some plan of action given an entire round to decide. If after 30 seconds, the player hasn't decided a course of action, his turn gets skipped. He has the option of reinserting himself at a later point in the initiative, or he can wait until his next turn.
As DM, I have the players each fill out a 3x5 notecard with all pertinent combat info listed on it (Save spells or powers) and use those cards to keep place of the intiative order.
These two practices tend to keep our combat going quickly. We only meet once every 3 weeks to play for 5 hours, so time efficiency is a must!
We have some slow moving parts. But combat is never among them. People are eager to put their sword into the enemy.
For what it is worth, I've played with the same group for a long long time, and they're fairly respectful about moving the game along too. If anything slows the game down it is the amount of planning they will put into a situation. Most of my players have a print out of all spells and options in advance so there is very little looking through books. For example one, person plays a cleric and she can never remember her spells, and powers. So she keeps a sheet of her memorized spells (copy and pasted from the PDF).
Otherwise I keep an initiative sheet. That helps keep me focused as a DM, and eveyone knows when their turn is coming up. I rarely run into an issue of having to wait for someone to decide on their action.
I also try to keep my group to under 5 players.
Carbon copy of my group - there's generally only 3 plays and the DM, everyone tends to have "combat sheets" with additonal info relating to spells, maneuvers etc. Sounds simple but making sure everyone knows where to find what on their character sheets [I recently redesigned ours to make it very easy to find key info]
With us too the planning is what eats up the time, but we all enjoy that - so its all good :)
Initiative sheets are a necessity and i normally designate someone to keep track of it too - lessens my load when DMing.
All good points. Our group tends to appoint a player as Initiative Caption. The IC notifies players when their action is coming up, so they stop chatting and look at the board to think about what they'll do. Other good practices include rolling all relevant dice at once (remember that section of the 3.5 PH?) and not stopping combat for big rules lookups. If it's a question that can't be answered and tabled, someone looks up what the answer is while the DM moves forward (if possible) with the next person in the order. As a DM, I like to put all my monsters on one initiative so that I run through my entire list and get it done.
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Combat sheets play a big part in our group too.
For instance one of my players is the party barbarian, and she's wrote up a couple of tables on the back of her character sheet that shows all her combat modifiers/statistics while raging, and has another table that shows her complete breakdowns of her various power attacks, etc.
Our casters keep spell cards (recipe cards) that has all their damage, range, DC, etc pre-calculated for their spells at their level, as well as any that might be modified by casting feats.
We use a small section of our whiteboard/battlemap for keeping track of all global effects like bless, etc so player's can see the modifiers up close and personal.
We use the Game Mastery combat Pad for tracking initiative - those little magnets save a surprising amount of time by visually showing how has held actions, etc.
Finally, I think the DM sets a big part of the pace. During my prep time I'll usually come up with some basic tactics, and tend to pre-plan a general idea of what spells they might use, in what order, so i'm not looking up spell effects during combat.
It's not uncommon for us to go through a half dozen or more encounters in an evening.
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I use DM's Familiar program and a laptop. This has all my needed info, combat board with initiative tracking, and the program rolls all relevant attacks/damge saves etc for every NPC/monster (or PC is you want to) at the click of a button and does all calculations ahead of time.
some people allow 30 second timer; my table is 10 secs. If you can't figure it out by 10 I "delay" him/her and move to the next person.
Robert
Similar to others, one player uses the combat pad to keep track of initiative and marks when spells end.
We have our own version of character sheets that has all the information on a single page (including variants for rage, power attack, etc), except for spells.
Each spell caster also has a cheat sheet with their spells on it. This sheet (well a few when we get to high level) has all the pertinent info on it.
If I have to ask more than twice what a player is doing, then their character "delays".
As DM, I have the players each fill out a 3x5 notecard with all pertinent combat info listed on it (Save spells or powers) and use those cards to keep place of the intiative order.
That is how our group(includes Brutesquad07) use to do it as well, but we saw the magnetic initiative board and liked the idea that player's could SEE where they were in initiative in the long run speeding up decisions as well. I actually made our magnetic initiative board for under $10.00 using stuff purchased at Walmart, instead of purchasing one for $16+. (Small magnet board, magnet strips, super glue, ID badge holders cut in thirds to hold names/info, wire picture stand) It's not as pretty as the printed one, but it's twice the size and does the job more than adequately. The only issue I would have with a homemade one would be trasportability, the manufacturered one is 8.5x11 and more easily transported, but a lot less visible.
Currently as a spellcaster, timely decisions can still be rough, especially when monsters move and shuffle about right before my turn. They have a nasty habit of blowing my Area-of-Effect spell plans right out of the water, but if taking too long we have been trained to consider delay as long as monsters aren't immediately after us. Sometimes party members can more to more strategic advatages/positions for you.
These two practices tend to keep our combat going quickly. We only meet once every 3 weeks to play for 5 hours, so time efficiency is a must!
We have a similar setup, but have been able to keep a relatively steady schedule of every 2 weeks for 5 hours, minus various vacations out-of-state and such.
A cattle prod.
Don't believe him. Snorter is even worse as a DM in derailing the round with asides and anecdotes. I despair of ever getting through a round in less than 20 minutes.
Things that do work:
- Initiative sheets (counting down from 20 or 30 to start, and then rolling round)
- Prompting casters (you are up soon - look at the darned board)
- Helping out newbies (give them confidence in their decisions - let them know if a negative result was due to freaky dice rolls and should've really worked or that the party actually is completely outclassed)
- Encouraging action over inaction (you'll have to do something sooner or later)
- Enforcing a response time deadline (tick tick tick)
- Having a reason and a desired outcome for the fight (harder to come by than it seems - I don't just mean 'survival')
- Keeping it interesting (you swing, you hit, he swings, he misses, you swing, you miss, he swings, he hits... yawn)
Having me there asking "Ok then, who's next?" is also helpful, but less easy to have at your table :-)
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Don't believe him. Snorter is even worse as a DM in derailing the round with asides and anecdotes.
Sorry, but I just had to perform the Kenku 'Dance of Distraction'.
"It's just a jump to the left,
And then a step to the ri-i-i-i-ight!
You keep your guard up high,
And hold your bea-eak in ti-i-ight.
But it's the Sneak Ata-a-ack,
That really drives them insa-a-a-a-ane.
LET'S DO THE KENKU AGAIN!"
At least John found it amusing; up until the round they tag-teamed him into single hp.
First of all we use the Combat Pad from Game Mastery which has been an invaluable tool to keep track of initiative.
Second I have the house rule that my PC's have two minutes to decide what their character is going to do and if they have not decided by the end of two minutes then their character automatically assumes total defense. I had to implement this due to the fact that I have some smokers in my group and they seem to go outside for an "oxygen break" about every thirty minutes or so, which in the middle of combat slows things down.
Third I also try to have the creatures I'm using typed up on a sheet in front of me with all of their powers and abilities, it helps me decide what my creatures are going to do without having to flip through books thus increasing the speed of the combat session and with 9 players in my group speed is essential!
Forth would be that if combat is stretching out over several hours or even several game sessions (which has happened to me) exercise DM control, the next time one of your party members hits the 15th orc, come up with a spectacular description of what they did and let the mook die or if your players come up with an awesome description of their combat moves then award them extra bonuses to hit or damage or both to kill off the mooks quickly which in turn will speed up your combat. It also has the benefit of getting the players excited to see if the move they've come up with works, keeping them focused on the game.
For rules questions I would recommend the System Operational Reference Digest or (SORD plus) which is a low cost thirty five page, quick reference document for Pathfinder Beta that makes looking up the rules go so much faster, it's another invaluable resource that my group uses all the time.
Hope this helps
Second I have the house rule that my PC's have two minutes to decide what their character is going to do and if they have not decided by the end of two minutes then their character automatically assumes total defense. I had to implement this due to the fact that I have some smokers in my group and they seem to go outside for an "oxygen break" about every thirty minutes or so, which in the middle of combat slows things down.
I have been known to have smokers return to find their character unconscious.
Fine, you have an addiction. You just have to smoke. But you don't have to interrupt the game and make everyone wait. Combat takes a half hour, then the rogue starts searching for traps, the party starts looting corpses, and people start milling about looking for the next encounter. No go take care of that addiction. But don't do it in the middle of combat, forcing everyone to wati for you.
Sure, I'll show some leniencey if the smoker is outside when the barbarian kicks open a door and I tell everyone to roll initiative. That's not the smoker's fault.
But it is his fault when he wanders outside in round 3 of the combat and everyone sits around staring at the walls for 10 minutes.
Oh, and unconscious PCs get reduced XP for the combat (unless they were beaten into unconsciousness), since they missed most of the action and therefore had less chance to learn.
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Here's some stuff that helps us out:
> SORD Plus for Pathfinder - slipped into a slip cover sheet premade book. There is simply currently no better GM execution tool to run Pathfinder. This is five star ***** stellar, and has eliminated look up time.
>> Gamemastery Combat Pad or pen & scratchpaper. The first time initiative is rolled, jot down names & numbers. Each round - run the countdown, calling 25-30! 18-25, etc. Usually players need this only the first or second round.
>>> It isn't the length of combat (say in time or number of rounds) that makes for the perception that combat was long! A great combat can go a few hours, but this requires story set-up and smart thought about the denizen and monsters. Minions, side-kicks, grunts, and bbeg's make for a great scene that leave the players feeling great about the big combat, rather than feeling it took too long. Make your battles meaningful is my point.
>>>> Move through minor or less important combats swiftly! Make good judgment calls about enemy morale. Sometimes they route or die trying to escape from multiple AOOs. Move through the boring bits swiftly. Do NOT use miniatures for some combats, but DO USE minatures and detailed battlemaps for important or large epic battles!
>>>>> Try to get Tinkered Tactics' Combat Tiers for Aerial Combat. It really adds amazing 3d dynamics to your game.
>>>>>> OWN THE RULES AS THE GM. Train your players to know that YOU are the rulebook. When in doubt, ask them to see rule number 1. What this means is get a group understanding that in-the-moment, you will be making fair rulings, combat moves swiftly, and PCs will not be fully aware of all of their surrounding during the "reality" of combat. Get them to in-return, be prepared on their turn!
>>>>>>> I use and recommend Steel Squire's Spell Radius Templates for any spell radius displays. Also create a few paper templates for yourself for little things like cone of cold, web, channel negative energy (black), channel positive energy (white), etc. That way you can layer them if needed.
>>>>>>> Don't hold back. As the GM, if ideas come to you spontaneously - go with those ideas. As players have new ideas, be supportive. You'll find your combat dynamic fast, fun, and renewed with energy and memorable. Avoid, the feeling of boring "roll, hit, damage, next" syndrome by describing some actions in vivid detail, and breezing through others. You can't describe everything that happens, so the GM has to also show restraint to keep things flowing.
Good Luck!
P.s. I also use Hypertext d20 to quickly click and read spell descriptions for casting times and components, area of effect details.
If your players struggle with providing "courtesy" to each other... I once had them pass the Eldritch Giant miniature to each other after their turn. This helped them get into the routine of cueing each other, taking some of the owness off of me.
As a GM, look for ways to make your job easier - - using Pathfinder, for example for their simplified skill system, their enhanced CMB system, and cleric domain power and channel energy system and others have added both flavor, and refinement to my v.3.5 game!
Oh, I also use PAIZO Gamemastery Critical Hits/Fumble decks; I also "hand out" actual treasure and object Item Cards from PAIZO's Dragon's Trove, or Wondrous Treasure/Adventure Gear Decks, Equipment, etc. collections. On the back I attach a pre-made tiny yellow sticky note, and slip the whole card and sticky into a plastic baseball card jacket. I do this for ration consumption tracking as well. The players know that until they identify or otherwise spellcraft their way into knowing about the item, not to turn it over. But at that point - there is ongoing clarity about who has what at all times.
You don't need to do any of this stuff to make your combat move faster. However, at a minimum, I recommend SORD Plus for Pathfinder. It will shave about 15 minutes off any combat.
Good luck, again.
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30 second combat timer, pause for rules adjudication, but if a player hasn't declared their action (note this isn't roled dice this is jsut declared action) in 30 seconds then their character is too confused and takes no action in the round (this happens in real life combat situations, sometimes people just need a few seconds to get their bearings so it makes combat go faster and makes characters a little more realistic) After a while you'll find your players respond in combat quickly and you don't even need a timer.
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30 second combat timer, pause for rules adjudication, but if a player hasn't declared their action (note this isn't roled dice this is jsut declared action) in 30 seconds then their character is too confused and takes no action in the round (this happens in real life combat situations, sometimes people just need a few seconds to get their bearings so it makes combat go faster and makes characters a little more realistic) After a while you'll find your players respond in combat quickly and you don't even need a timer.
Well said. Gygax played this way too. He went in a semi-circle where everyone had to declare their actions for the round or lose them. Then the dice and other items were worked out PC by PC. Descriptions of this technique can be found in the first edition retro clone, OSRIC. Note: OSRIC is free.
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Very interesting..
Our Group is made of 3 vetrans.. with over 20 years exp. and two new comers but they still have 3 years experience... our problem is that its not that the DMG does not try to move things on.. its the inconsideration of about only 2 persons constantly distracted while using their laptops.. Albeit they use them for purpose while gaming but sometimes it takes one a little to long as she should of had her spells prepared or at least know what she wants to use
The other distraction in using the laptops is e-mail, and looking crap up on the internet while story is being read etc by our wonderful DMG.
He does not like to be a prick, but how would you go about telling a couple of people who are to distracted by their computers to stop? your being very rude..
I mean its like only 2 out of the 5 really listen, and the others are busy on the laptops Metagaming or looking at personal stuff. The DM is wonderful, great storyline, and very informative, excellent villans and descriptions of everything. I hate to see him just quit after so many years.
Well said. Gygax played this way too. He went in a semi-circle where everyone had to declare their actions for the round or lose them.
Don't like that. I like my fights dynamic. Let's say my cleric was just about to call down divine retribution inthe form of firestorm upon the enemies, when one of them is felled by one big blow that hammers him to -20.
Without the ability to change my action for that round in reaction to that, the guy is dead, even though there is a spell for that exact situation (breath of life).
Or I want to attack some guy, but he's felled before it's my turn.
its the inconsideration of about only 2 persons constantly distracted while using their laptops..
For that I have two easy courses of action:
1. Bring a strong magnet
2. Be not afraid to use it.
In my games, there's exactly one laptop allowed - the GM's. And that's because it's used to access the PDFs and display maps with map tool and a second screen. There's also the occasional showing of pictures to underscore something.
And I'm the first to admit that sometimes, we use it to watch something on youtube, but we keep that to a manageable level, and never during a fight.
I hate to see him just quit after so many years.
Make sure he won't quit. Playing with just two or three good players is better than playing with disruptive ones.
Tell the others to stop bringing their laps, and if they balk at that, tell them to stop bringing themselves. Don't let idiots destroy your game.
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Don't let idiots destroy your game.
Dude, I like your style. And, I agree - select your players c a r e f u l l y. And, as I do, each year on the anniversary of our group, I ask the players to "renew" their commitment, and also ask if anyone would like to opt-out of the next year. This way, they're reminded that nothing is a guarantee, nor forever, and don't take membership for granted. There is a lot that goes into making a kick-ass game. As KaeYoss says, "don't let idiots destroy your game."
>>>Also, KaeYoss: your new character sheet for Pathfinder Fantasy Role-playing Game is out of this world, awesome! My players actually prefer it to several other styles.
Here's a quote for your next commercial:
4 out of 5 Pathfinder gamers prefer KaeYoss' character sheet over any other!
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Well said. Gygax played this way too. He went in a semi-circle where everyone had to declare their actions for the round or lose them.Don't like that. I like my fights dynamic. Let's say my cleric was just about to call down divine retribution inthe form of firestorm upon the enemies, when one of them is felled by one big blow that hammers him to -20.
Without the ability to change my action for that round in reaction to that, the guy is dead, even though there is a spell for that exact situation (breath of life).
Or I want to attack some guy, but he's felled before it's my turn.
its the inconsideration of about only 2 persons constantly distracted while using their laptops..For that I have two easy courses of action:
1. Bring a strong magnet
2. Be not afraid to use it.In my games, there's exactly one laptop allowed - the GM's. And that's because it's used to access the PDFs and display maps with map tool and a second screen. There's also the occasional showing of pictures to underscore something.
And I'm the first to admit that sometimes, we use it to watch something on youtube, but we keep that to a manageable level, and never during a fight.
I hate to see him just quit after so many years.Make sure he won't quit. Playing with just two or three good players is better than playing with disruptive ones.
Tell the others to stop bringing their laps, and if they balk at that, tell them to stop bringing themselves. Don't let idiots destroy your game.
Thanks KaeYoss, I will reiterate that with him.. :) The problem is these people all know each other and are good freinds, myself and the DM really only know 2 of them well, so maybe its time to find like minded others in Seattle.. :) our DM spends so much time with story, Heiarchy etc its like your in a movie if its rolling smooth without interuptions.. I have no idea how many hours he spends creating his campaigns but they are very detailed.
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things to speed combat, especially at high levels:
Buff Tokens. We've used 3x5 cards, writing on the battlemat, white boards, and finally came up with an elegant and reusable solution. Small round plaques, about 3-4" in diameter (good stand ins for gargantuan and huge creatures) with whiteboard paint on one side and black on the rim.
That's it. You then write the buff on the whiteboard part, Inspire Courage, Haste, etc, and when you go to resolve your dice, you have an instant visual reminder on the board of whats up and ongoing.
Initiative cards. Been using them for years, they're a good solution, but I think i am going to have to make a magnetic battle board. I already do all my DM notes on a 11x17 whiteboard, so propping that up in the corner of the table wont be too hard, and I can definitely see the advantage of knowing the whole order.
Reminding someone who's next, especially in the deep part of a long combat, or when a lot of factors need to be taken into effect, can help prod their decision process. A few of my players are very hard to get focused when they're not rolling dice or listening to me, so "you're up after him" takes about 2 seconds, and makes a world of difference.
I'm too much of a softy to use a timer in my weekly games, but at Cons for sure. 30 sec is a good time frame, enough to really think through, or re-read a spell once, but not enough to kick through the index of the DMG. You delay is a common statement at my table.
Finally, Laptops (and other computer type stuff) are not forbidden when I DM. In fact, one of my more attentive players always uses his laptop. It's just too convenient to have something to roll up 12d4+24d6+36 or something, or have the D20Srd.org site up to quickly grab some random bit of info. If they get distracting though, or I catch em playing games, I will close the cover, throw something, or just ask em "So you wanna play DnD or no?". That usually works.
-t
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If it happens where things are going too slow and someone just doesn't know what they're going to do, they get forced into delaying. It may not be fair, but it does make sure everyone starts planning when it's not their turn.
Sounds good to me, I will help the DM and smack them around, or put my Boot up you know where.. or better yet.. break out my whip and crack a few.. LOL
Vampress!
Don't let idiots destroy your game.Dude, I like your style. And, I agree - select your players c a r e f u l l y.
Don't get me wrong: Normally I prefer "live and let live", and I'm willing to adapt to a certain extent.
But if it starts to frustrate others to the point where they want to quit playing, it's gone too far.
Before someone gets fed up to the point where he stops playing altogether, there will be busted heads and people being kicked out of the party (even if the party ends up being too small after that.)
>>>Also, KaeYoss: your new character sheet for Pathfinder Fantasy Role-playing Game is out of this world, awesome! My players actually prefer it to several other styles.
Glad to hear it. I made it to my own specifications, just the way I like it. There are no HP fields because I end up tracking them on the top of the sheet, anyway, for example. Glad someone else finds it useful, too.
Thanks KaeYoss, I will reiterate that with him.. :) The problem is these people all know each other and are good freinds, myself and the DM really only know 2 of them well, so maybe its time to find like minded others in Seattle.. :) our DM spends so much time with story, Heiarchy etc its like your in a movie if its rolling smooth without interuptions.. I have no idea how many hours he spends creating his campaigns but they are very detailed.
You should probably ask yourself whether it is still fun running a game like this. If it's not, quit. No game is better than a bad game.
And I'd totally look for new players. I've heard tell that Seattle isn't that small, so there's bound to be one or two decent players for you to find.
Thanks,
Everyone has been so helpful, as I am new to this message board, it is refreshing to hear from other experienced players, DM's etc.
Thanks everyone.. and happy exciting Roleplaying!
Welcome to the boards.
Thanks,
Everyone has been so helpful, as I am new to this message board, it is refreshing to hear from other experienced players, DM's etc.
Thanks everyone.. and happy exciting Roleplaying!
Glad to be of help, and hope you'll have a good time here.
Oh, and to warn you: Iomedaean priestesses are big fat liars. Don't believe the slander they spew forth about those in the comedy business or those with non-conformist anatomy! :)
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Thanks,
Everyone has been so helpful, as I am new to this message board, it is refreshing to hear from other experienced players, DM's etc.
Thanks everyone.. and happy exciting Roleplaying!
Glad to be of help, and hope you'll have a good time here.
Oh, and to warn you: Iomedaean priestesses are big fat liars. Don't believe the slander they spew forth about those in the comedy business or those with non-conformist anatomy! :)
LOL I will keep that in mind.. thanks KaeYoss :)