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From Interview With Pathfinder Publisher Erik Mona:
-I know you've asked for feedback for fans on what sort of supplements they'd like to see, but what add-on supplements do you think would be fun to do with Pathfinder?
<snikt>
For example, I'd be far less interested in an epic level book than I would be in a book that tightly focused on a level band (say 10-15), with lots of rules appropriate for campaigns at that level. Lots of info about hirelings and achieving fame and influence and nobility and hideouts and stuff. I also think such a book might include easy quick-start rules that explain how to build a high-level character in as simple terms as possible. Material that expands my use of the core rules garners my favor much more easily than quirky sub-systems, new forms of magic, and turning into gods and stuff.
What do you think of such an idea? I think such a supplement would be actually kewl. I could see a series of books, covering levels 1-5, 6-10, 11-15, etc., and all the fun stuff you can do at each power band.
I don't know if all levels really need help. A book that helps you play lv10+ with a short part at the back for building a setting where the pc's never pass level 10 would be nice.
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Five words:
Basic
Expert
Companion
Master
Immortal
LOL
Yes, I thought the same.[WARNING: NOSTALGIA ALERT!]
I don't think that's what Erik was implying though.
I believe it was an open question to the fans whether they would want supplements that dealt with specific issues that affect play at the higher levels. Such as running a political game, where the PCs are landholders with responsibilities.
Sure enough, there are players out there who just don't care for that style, and would rather play rootless hobos, teleporting round the globe, kicking ever-higher-CR monster butt, till they turn Epic, and 'take it outside', to kick butt round the outer planes.
Any discussion of political maneuvering or courtly intrigue would be wasted pages to them.
However, I believe such material should be in the core rules, if only in an abbreviated form, since it makes a statement that this is a 'grown-up' game, and that such a style is valid and welcome.
There is a tendency to view anything not in the core books as a marginal interest, and not the way most people play (look at the way Psionics is treated, despite being part of the SRD).
It would be a shame if many of the advances in campaign building and RP style were to be sidelined to supplemental books, leaving a casual browser to conclude that the main emphasis of the game were more and more powerful means of 'killing things and taking their stuff'.
Such books would also be a nice place to put some crucial infos/tips for DMs, like how to take into account f.e. the PCs ability to fly (starting at level 5), to teleport long distances (starting at level 9), to scry, etc. when writing adventures in those level regions.
I thought the same when I read Mona's description. Would it work? Or are folks now used to specific "splats" like class, race, environment, etc.?Five words:
Basic
Expert
Companion
Master
Immortal
Oh, I think that is an excellent "retro-concept" as it were - apply the tiering/banding approach to the core rules in fleshing out and expanding as Erik Mona mentioned briefly in that interview.
It's amazing how "kewl" old school stuff is when you blow off about a decade's worth of dust.
^_^
Liking this idea a lot.
Truthfully, I think this is a terrible idea from Paizo. If I was getting 1-2 system books a year (not including a new monster book), I don't want advice on how to build encounters at a certain level or advice on how to build a character a given level. This sounds more like a filler product than a system product. Frankly, something like that sounds better suited for a PDF product from a company I've never heard of (but am willing to give it a try because the premise sounds interesting) than a print product from the company putting out the core rules.
If I'm getting 1-2 system products a year, I'm interested in something that genuinely adds something to the system. If you want to focus on the planet that has psionics for an AP, put out a system book that uses psionics. If you want a series of PFS adventures that center around thieves, pirates, paladin organizations, and other types of groups, put out a book that focuses on the structure of organizations, group feats (similar to PHB II's concept), and a fame mechanic. How about a book that detail how to create new magical creatures/abominations ingame as well as the science of magic, the structure of magical universities, and what happens with a spell if you use a different material component (UA, but taken further). A divine focused supplement with a mechanic that details how to perform divine rituals, allowing lower level characters (or groups without a cleric/druid) access to (higher) healing spells (UA started this concept, but it only had like 4 incantations in it, a book with a great number of them would be excellent).
Just want to point out that with the exception of psionics, none of these require new classes/PrCs. Simply opitonal rules that groups can use to enhance their games in different directions.
I think this could be a good medium to help people grow into role playing, and roll playing. However I don't really think it would be likely to include new PrC's and the like. I like this new idea a lot, however I would still like more of the old "splat book" stuff too.
Five words:
Basic
Expert
Companion
Master
Immortal
Agreed, this would be awesome.
It's amazing how "kewl" old school stuff is when you blow off about a decade's worth of dust.Err...
By 'Kaeyoss', do you mean me?
O.o
Uhhh ... yeah ... :facepalm:
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There's nothing wrong with advice about playing certain levels, but it doesn't seem to mesh very well with the idea of an Adventure Path. The whole point of publishing an Adventure Path line is to provide GMs with enough material that they never need to create their own encounters. So which product does Paizo want me to buy? The one with lots of ready-made encounters or the one that gives me lots of advice for not relying on ready-made encounters?
While Paizo started out with Adeventure Paths (in Dungeon), it has graduated on through world building (with all the supplemental Golarion stuff) into gaming system design.
So I'll agree that the people who are just buying the AP's to run might not have interest in level books, and the people that use Golarion as a sandbox for their own adventures might not either. However, the people who buy into the PRPG system might like level books since they aren't necessarily interested in AP's or Golarion, but in the game system itself.
-Skeld
There's nothing wrong with advice about playing certain levels, but it doesn't seem to mesh very well with the idea of an Adventure Path. The whole point of publishing an Adventure Path line is to provide GMs with enough material that they never need to create their own encounters. So which product does Paizo want me to buy? The one with lots of ready-made encounters or the one that gives me lots of advice for not relying on ready-made encounters?
This makes perfect sense to me. While I like all the ready-made encounters, it would be nice to have extra ideas/concepts for expanding the role-playing aspects of those "title" levels. They could even be referenced from the AP.
Reminds me of the "Keeping up the Keep" article in PF3.
Is it #1 on my wishlist though? No.
I would like to see racial levels like are in the Savage Species book and the Savage Progressions online articles.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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If I was getting 1-2 system books a year... I don't want advice on how to build encounters at a certain level or advice on how to build a character a given level.There's nothing wrong with advice about playing certain levels, but it doesn't seem to mesh very well with the idea of an Adventure Path. The whole point of publishing an Adventure Path line is to provide GMs with enough material that they never need to create their own encounters. So which product does Paizo want me to buy? The one with lots of ready-made encounters or the one that gives me lots of advice for not relying on ready-made encounters?
That depends.
How much time do you have to devote to your hobby?
How much extra work do you like to put into fleshing out the details beyond the "script" of the campaign?
Yes, the Pathfinder Adventure Path is our biggest product line, but our assumption is that many people who purchase the Pathfinder RPG will want to create their own campaigns from scratch.
If it was just about the Adventure Paths, the campaign setting book would have only included information about Varisia, the Darklands, and Katapesh.
Yes, the Pathfinder Adventure Path is our biggest product line, but our assumption is that many people who purchase the Pathfinder RPG will want to create their own campaigns from scratch.
And bizarrely enough PFRG makes me want to do both, use golarion and make a homebrew.
I think that there should be 3 level band books, or rather, GM's guides.
GMG 1 or "Low-level Adventure Guide" (1st to 5th): The first GMG should contain the "lite" version of the PRPG rules, making it a stand-alone manual that people can use to pick up role-playing for the first time. This should include a photocopy-worthy handout of the basic rules for players, meaning a newbie could buy just this book, teach his players, and run a few levels. (sort of the reverse of PHB 3.0... a lot of info for the GM, and let the players get by on the basics, their GM can reveal the rules to them a little at a time.)
The new GM is the most critical force in bringing new players to the game. PHBs are actually irrelevant if you want to lower the entry cost (in both money and effort) all you need to do is empower the GM to run for newbies. You can fit the rules for first level PCs on 3 or 4 pages as a handout, and let them rejoice with each new feat or spell revealed by the GM.
GMG 2 "Mid-level Adventure Guide" (6th to 12th): The mid level guide should be the first to presume the entire group has access to the Core rulebook. It should give the GM the tools you need to survive as the game suddenly gets a lot more complex. Modular treasure systems, not treasure tables. Expanded encounter balance algorithms that account for the party, not the "generic" party.
GMG 3 or "High-level Adventure Guide" (12th-20th+): The final level band book should include a sizable section of "epic" rules for continuation past 20th, but I don't think epic rules should have their own book. I am in the camp that believes a page of advice on how to explain to your players that 20th is the "end" would be more useful. But primarily this book is about giving the GM standard tools to keep the high-level game fun.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I certainly understand your concerns and share many of them.
We have not yet formally announced any follow-up "rules" books beyond the Bestiary precisely because of the concerns you raise. Such books _will_ happen (because demand is obviously there for them), but we are going to try to go about it as responsibly as possible.
I certainly understand your concerns and share many of them.
We have not yet formally announced any follow-up "rules" books beyond the Bestiary precisely because of the concerns you raise. Such books _will_ happen (because demand is obviously there for them), but we are going to try to go about it as responsibly as possible.
NO!!! Don't do it resposibly! Because if you do so, then we will have less for us to whine about! As it is, I LIKE to whine!
~grins~ J/K! I know you all will do a good job with whatever you all do!
I very rarely post on these boards (mostly because I'm out of the loop so many times, and really, it just seems like you're either part of the conversation near the beginning, or you're just lost). But this one in particular piked my interest. Mostly because I think something like this would be AMAZING.
I'm all for ways to expand my game and have more monsters and areas detailed and all such and so forth. But from both a Player and a GM perspective, I would love to have something like this. From a GM perspective, it would fantastic to say "Hey, Fly becomes available at these levels. Ways to counter it are..." or even better "Some ways to incorporate this is..." Things that would interest a GM at those levels. Ways to create challenging encounters, both combat and non-combat. Details about running noble houses, or guilds. And having one for each 5-level tiers would be fantastic, and the challenges that exist.
From a player perspective, it would be awesome as well. Becoming a part of a guild, running a keep, varying treasures. I played a 3.5e Bard in a 2-year campaign. Combat was fun, but all the other stuff was vastly more interesting (obviously). And for a product to have things that happen during certain levels, or things about level-specific groups and peoples, I think that such a thing would be far more valuable in the roleplaying department than most other things I've seen so far.
My vote is for something such as this. I have the APs, and I've loved them, but have yet to play fully through any (the people here have a really bad habit of starting something and never finishing it). And I really love Golarion. But a product that has more level-relevant information that isn't tied to an AP would be awesome.
I very rarely post on these boards (mostly because I'm out of the loop so many times, and really, it just seems like you're either part of the conversation near the beginning, or you're just lost). But this one in particular piked my interest. Mostly because I think something like this would be AMAZING.
etc.
I totally agree, I'm fascinated by this idea of a dissection of how the rules change and grow organically and the challenges and combats change to match as levels increase.
I certainly understand your concerns and share many of them.
We have not yet formally announced any follow-up "rules" books beyond the Bestiary precisely because of the concerns you raise. Such books _will_ happen (because demand is obviously there for them), but we are going to try to go about it as responsibly as possible.
Glad to hear it.
Given recent events elsewhere in the industry, I'd almost forgotten what it was like to have an RPG company that actually thinks things through before implementing them.
Ditto this. I apologize for my emotionally charged post upthread. I read it and am like, "Did I actually write that? Uh!"
From a GM perspective, it would fantastic to say "Hey, Fly becomes available at these levels. Ways to counter it are..." or even better "Some ways to incorporate this is..." Things that would interest a GM at those levels.
Even better: Give us other "Ways to counter" AND "ways to incorporate". Sometimes people have ideas that can only work by nerfing a power, and some are looking for ways to showcase powers. This kind of book should attempt to give us the wisdom to know when to do which.
I totally agree, I'm fascinated by this idea of a dissection of how the rules change and grow organically and the challenges and combats change to match as levels increase.
Exactly.
Its one of the things I feel 3.75e has over other edition, it feels like it grows organically as the characters get more powerful.
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I too think that this would be an awesome line of products, both useful and unique (unlike, say, the calls for the Complete books redux, which I admit I wouldn't mind seeing either); one thing that would be worth remembering though is that GM-oriented books tend to sell quite poorly (only one person in a group needs to buy one rather than 4-6 people needing a copy), and most of the suggestions made so far have been GM-aimed.
To look at it from a player's perspective, I'd suggest game elements that specifically tie into the relevant level band: alternate class features that apply to those levels, spells of levels that apply to those class levels, feats that have restrictions that would be met in those levels, etc. 5-level PrCs (that fit entirely within the level band described in the book) might also be possibilities.
I'm not quite sure how I feel about this to be completely honest. I mean how big are the supplements going to be or what media (PDF - by this I mean really low page count - like Nick's "Indulgence: Art of the Duel", soft cover or hard cover book)? I can't imagine something meant for supplemental "advice" for running levels 1-5 could be very large without maybe being a little redundant in someways. Obviously if geared towards a beginner player/DM it would be of more use but many of the people here are "experienced" players who have been doing it for years so the supplement ends up being of little to no use to them, probably being a book of common sense. This ends up limiting the potential target consumer by a lot. Is there enough extra information for low levels that actually demands a supplemental if it doesn't target beginning players? Obviously there are going to be loyal Paizo buyers who will buy it just because Paizo published it but I'm not sure that would be a large enough base to really devote a large amount of resources to. I would hope to avoid books that amount to "How to play [Insert Class] ..." Official rules on how to role-play are a huge pet peeve of mine, but I guess you could use a low level supplement to introduce "alternative class features" ala PHB2 to help fill it out.
Even moving away to the "mid levels" there would definitely be more useful information to offer, the game develops and changes at this point. More options, more abilities, more things a DM will run into problems with as well. With that extra power more role-playing potential on the PC's end is possible. Here more explanation on Leadership would be a huge boon for the game, it is a core feat in the PFRPG and preparing a new DM for how it alters the game could help immensely. A natural extension of that seems to be creation of a "headquarters" (the old keep on the hill, a wizards tower, underground thieves guild, etc.) where the cohorts (and party possibly) would be stationed/lived and expanded rules for that. Expanded crafting rules even, 12 cohorts working round the clock crafting a masterwork sword for their Lord makes sense to me, but doesn't really work for the current rule set.
High to Epic levels is a whole new world and despite the comment I saw above, it probably out of all the level ranges deserves if not requires a great deal more information than the previous level ranges. It is at this point many of the rules start to fall apart (looking at you CR and "Class Balance") and things like challenging/becoming demigods starts becoming possible (depending on your DM). A beginning DM used to playing the previous levels is in for a rude awakening if they are just going to be using the core rules. Regardless of you opinion on the subject I'm fairly sure we can all agree epic levels are different than the lower levels. Addressing all the concerns and epic level rules could easily stand to be a significantly sized book in itself.
Now that all said, our group has the Epic Level Handbook, Deities and Demigods, Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, PHB2 and World Builder's Guidebook so basically we have all of this already. Paizo rehashing the same rules with the PFRPG slant isn't going to get our money as we already have working rules for established characters. Even if it is 75% of the same rules and 25% something new it would be iffy. New doesn't mean worthwhile. Of course there will probably be some neat rules that might be worth pilfering but that select 8-9 paragraphs probably isn't going to be enough to get the majority to buy the book. The neat rules will be discussed on the boards/internet and the mechanics of it will be available if you spend the time reading about them on the boards or going to your FLGS and reading them there.
One of the things Paizo does have going for it (and probably why this subject is being "felt out") is that WotC has nixed the PDF sales. Many of these books (Epic, World Builder, Stronghold Builder) probably had a relatively low total print count. No PDF sales means not having these books available to future customers and these supplements can be used by Paizo to capitalize on that. Also I'm not sure "social/political" supplemental rules really fit in a specific level range and should probably be their own book. While people may have favorite level ranges to play, everyone can use rules/options that pertain to certain levels. You may like playing levels 6-12 and only ever do that, you still have a use for options/alternate class features that are available at 1st level. Politics are usually a significant part of a groups campaign or not, regardless of the level.
Put me down as heavily in favor of a product geared towards DM'ing high level (levels 12-20) play. I would appreciate both pointers towards spells that powerful NPC's would use to protect their lairs, quick tips on generating high level NPC's, maybe even include photocopiable encounter prep-sheets, chapters on how to DM PC's who want to establish strongholds and begin to build their own fiefdoms etc. I am all for something like that.
I think I'm in the camp that isn't excited about this concept.
To be clear, I love the concept. I really really do.
But when we consider the benefits of thses supplements, we also have to consider the costs.
In business we talk about "opportunity costs" which in simple terms is the cost of not doing something we could have done because we were doing something else.
So let's ask ourselves, if Paizo will only put out a couple books a year, are these the books we want the most? What books could they put out that they won't, because they're releasing these books instead?
While I think these books would be really cool, I think there are other things I would rather see. Many other things.
A Paizo version of the Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium, Arms and Equipment, Complete Class books, Complete Race books, PHB II, DMG II, Psionics, Epic. Just to name a few (not necessarily in that order).
I would rather have any of those, than having these tiered level books.
So yeah, if Paizo wants to expand their staff and expand their planned release cycles, I'm all for these books. But if it's to be these instead of the more useful books, then I have to admit that I'm not willing to pay the opportunity cost for them.
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I think that there should be 3 level band books, or rather, GM's guides.
Now I wonder. Could such guides be incorporated into the theme books like psionics, races, classes, etc.? Maybe such books could be divided in to two sections, with one for the players and the second for the DM. The latter would then discuss using the subject matter (e.g., clerics) at the various levels and providing tips, suggestions, fluff, and crunch that's normal DM specific (e.g., land management, how to counter Fly, etc.).
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Well I'm all for additional supplements beyonds the upcoming core book and bestiary, but only as long as the market isn't flooded with them. We've all seen and learned what happens in the past when this happens!
Quality over Quantity is definately the way to go, and Paizo and it's Pathfinder line have definately been that of quality! As long as this path continues then we're all good to go.
Just my two GP ;)
Wise man once say: Patience is a virtue!
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The idea of levels books is completely unexciting, to me, but maybe it'll turn out to be cool. If not, well, one crappy rules book won't put me off purchasing a rulesbook subscription (that I gather we can expect to be able to get) but if it went like BECMI (in which I had no interest at the time and still have no interest; I went from Blue Dragon Basic, whose main purpose appeared to be printing an advertisement for AD&D wrapped in a crappy little game, to AD&D as per Gygax's Evil Plan) and we had something like 5 of the godamned things, I'm not so sure. And I own everything Pathfinder/Gamemastery.
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When I first saw this, I though meh.. But now that I am thinking about it, I think this would be a great idea if geared toward GMs. If it includes advice on using certain adventures in certain levels, etc. EX, a first level dungeon should Be way diff than a lvl 6 dungeon, which should be diff from a lvl 13 dungeon. The resources of the players change. Also the same with NPC attitudes and how they treat the character. Common NPC will treat lvl 13's diff as they have a rep and carry magic item, and in general give off that "bada$$" persona. Then there is room for advice on choosing treasure, maybe a list of thing the PCs should each have, so if one doesn't, you could put it in a treasure horde. How to handle animal companion, or followers, etc. The higher books can talk about players responsibility in the community, stronghold, maybe even how to play a king, lord, etc and what kinds of adventures work, or how to tailor stuff to them. I think there is really a lot of potential, if it is geared toward a GM. I think players would better be served by splat type book with option, and cool changes, and role playing tips, etc.
Heck I am beginning to like it so much, if pathfinder doesn't pick it up, I hope someone does. :)
I just wanted to say, I didn't mean that in any negative way to paizo at all... I just hope to see something like this.That's...a very good idea.
Heck I am beginning to like it so much, if pathfinder doesn't pick it up, I hope someone does. :)
LOL, considering what they are doing in the current gaming industry, I'm confident they have a pretty thick skin and just generally open minded about things and wouldn't see that as offensive (at least from what I've seen from the staff posts anyways).
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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So let's ask ourselves, if Paizo will only put out a couple books a year, are these the books we want the most? What books could they put out that they won't, because they're releasing these books instead?
The current plan is to release three hardcover rulebooks on various subjects every year. The first year is going to be pretty boilerplate. The Core Rulebook, the Bestiary, and another book later in the year we haven't revealed yet.
After that, the plan is to do one monster book and two "other" books every year. One of those "other" books will very likely be the sort of boilerplate "we've gotta do it" books that "everyone would want". Right now I am toying with the idea of the "third" book being something that hasn't been done before, if only to keep the pool from growing too recursive, stagnant, and predictable.
That said, "predictable" often translates to "lots of people would trade money for this," so I haven't yet decided one way or the other.
A Paizo version of the Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium, Arms and Equipment, Complete Class books, Complete Race books, PHB II, DMG II, Psionics, Epic. Just to name a few (not necessarily in that order).
While I'm all for new spells and magic items, I'd rather spend a couple of years actually generating material to compile before immediately launching into compilations. We could likely compile a lot of OGL material and update some 3.5 items we've done so far, but my gut tells me this one can wait a bit. I would like to see more magic items and stuff in the Pathfinder Companion in the meantime.
So yeah, if Paizo wants to expand their staff and expand their planned release cycles, I'm all for these books. But if it's to be these instead of the more useful books, then I have to admit that I'm not willing to pay the opportunity cost for them.
Hey, help me sell a copy of the Core Rulebook to as many people as you can, and I'll do my best to increase the staff size and release schedule. :)
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[The current plan is to release three hardcover rulebooks on various subjects every year. The first year is going to be pretty boilerplate. The Core Rulebook, the Bestiary, and another book later in the year we haven't revealed yet.
Erik, any chance of letting us know when we can expect this announcement? Soon? Origins? GenCon?