My session last night made me think of this question:
Have you ever had a dragon use a weapon?
I did. I had a mature adult red throw a large spear hidden in its hoard at the paladin when he thought he was safely out of the Dragon's immediate range.
Copied from DM kill page:
While travelling to the Dwarven run City of Xonar the party notices a large red dragon high overhead flying towards the mountains. They decide to travel towards the nearest city and find out more. They discovered the tale of Flametear the Horrible (suggested to be very tough and out of their league).
They bought supplies and made a tough trip over the mountains (during mid winter to boot). They got to the volcanic area it was said that Flametear dwelt in after over a month of travel. After days of searching they found three likely caves. They then discussed how they would try and beat the dragon (a little late on the planning, I thought). They explored the crevices (with some poison gas and lava problems). The PC's reasoned that with some subterfuge they could 'get the drop' on the dragon and be able to gain the upper hand.
The dragon minced them. You should have seen the surprise on the player's face when the mature adult red dragon chose to throw a large spear across the cavern to nail the paladin. The dragon then quickly moved in, breathed and the laid a whooping all around and subdued everyone in just a few rounds.
My session last night made me think of this question:
Have you ever had a dragon use a weapon?
I don't think dragons are naturally proficient with weapons, but with the whopping BAB served up to most dragons, it stands to reason that they'd figure out a weapon like a spear (duh, pointy end this way?) and be able to use it.
I ran a dragon once that had 2 levels of fighter so that he could wear full plate armor (magical of course) and use a balista as a crossbow (again magical). He even took the item creation feats so that he could make them himself.
Admittedly he was not nearly as fun or nasty as the Red Dragon who was Rogue/Arcane Trickster. In a game that went well into epic he was the only oponent who not only survived fighting with the party, but actually made a profit off them (he robbed them multiple times).
I don't think dragons are naturally proficient with weapons, but with the whopping BAB served up to most dragons, it stands to reason that they'd figure out a weapon like a spear (duh, pointy end this way?) and be able to use it.My session last night made me think of this question:
Have you ever had a dragon use a weapon?
Hey, the nonprofiency penalty is only -4, not that big a deal.
I had a mature adult red known as Gairon the Indifferent, a sort of wandering troublemaker. He would pick a two "trigger conditions" when meeting someone. If that person met one of those conditions, he would either help them, or harm them, based on the event. Sometimes he would even roll a dice just to determine the degree of assistance or mayhem.
So he might walk into a village (sometimes in human form, sometimes normal) and go about his buisiness in what would be considered "socially acceptable behavior". But if someone said the words "brick oven" he would grant them one request and fulfill it to the best of his ability. If someone yawned while scratching their armpit, he would murder them brutally.
He was legendary enough that people often left him alone rather than try to drive him away, although everyone would be tense from trying to guess what his "trigger" would be. But he was easily identifiable, thanks to the greatsword Rockbleeder that he had stolen from a titan. It was a massive rune-etched blade that could create earthquakes and cleave the very ground itself (+2 Admantine Gargantuan Greatsword with Earthquake 1/day)
Personally, I think dragons have more than enough manual dexterity to wield weapons, although their naturally high strength (and frequent choice of Power Attack as a feat) lends them to two-handed weapons first and foremost, although I would rule that a dragon fighting with a two handed weapon would have to move at half-speed on the ground if it wanted to make attacks of opportunity, as it sort of waddles on its hind legs. Otherwise, it would have to hold the weapon in one hand as it moved, favoring the occupied claw. I wouldn't penalize its speed really, but I wouldn't let it make attacks of opp with it either.
As such, many dragons seeking to wield weapons might compromise with a one-handed weapon, to avoid speed issues but maintain power. Light weapons just wouldn't be worth it to most dragons, who don't have the dexterity to truly profit from them.
Now I have these floating in my head:
A swashbuckling bronze with a rapier, seeking other dragons hoards to steal.
A narcissistic blue with tiger claws, refusing to dirty his own claws.
A militant silver with a glaive, guarding a sacred passage.
A self-destructive green with a greataxe, determined to destroy the forest and everything in it.
A veteran white with a spiked chain, who has determined to even the playing field against a hated rival red.
A cheerful copper with a whip, using it, spider climb, and tumble to harass and frustrate foes.
Yes; mostly staff and items like rings and maybe a magic necklace; dragons arent common enough in my game to have used them much but I would have no problem giving them armor or equivalent magic slot items. Dragons advance by character class so I would use whatever items are appropriate for the class.
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My group and I often joke about a red dragon lurking behind a forboding door with a sap. It's just for comedy but one day somebody will do it. On a more serious note I read Sharuku by Rich Burlew and badly wanted to run it. That one black dragon has kind of inspired me; any dragon I run will probably use something from it's hoard, especially if they aren't expendable items.
A fun idea I may reuse, which is similar to one mentioned before. A dragon that thinks of himself as an "adventurer" and acts like one. He delves in dungeons for treasure and considers himself as much on the side of good as the PCs ever do. Only thing is he doesn't see the difference between the orc encampment, the vampire's lair, and the king's castle. (This can also be a fun way to bring up the morality question of exactly what the difference between the three is.)
There is also a dragon in my campaign who doesn't have a lair. Instead he has a triple sized portable hole in which he keeps his treasure. When he is tired he simply opens it up, sets up some magical and non-magical alarms and goes to sleep. When he wakes up he folds the portable hole back up and takes it with him.
I now want to stat-out a Dragon Knight Blackguard!!!
Actually, my PCs are due to take on a Red Dracolich, the Necromancer/Red Wizard/Archmage that made her so, and her surviving hatchlings (with apprentice dragonrider mages, of course). Maybe Papa Dragon can be a weapon-wielder!!!
MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
EDIT: Just remembered adding the Half-Fiend template makes you an outsider, and outsiders are proficient in Simple and Martial Weapons....
I now want to stat-out a Dragon Knight Blackguard!!!
Actually, my PCs are due to take on a Red Dracolich, the Necromancer/Red Wizard/Archmage that made her so, and her surviving hatchlings (with apprentice dragonrider mages, of course). Maybe Papa Dragon can be a weapon-wielder!!!
MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
EDIT: Just remembered adding the Half-Fiend template makes you an outsider, and outsiders are proficient in Simple and Martial Weapons....
Just check up on the rules for "non-associated class levels" for monsters. As far as I'm concerned there is no associated class when it comes to dragons.
For true evil check out the Soul Eater from the Book of Vile Darkness. Not much can beat your player's reaction when the dragon deals negative levels with each of it's natural attacks.
Does the name Fauntleroy ring any bells? If not, fine. If so, now theres an adventuring dragon! Even got himself a curse! You can't be a real adventurer without a curse!
I'll be the odd man out here and say that I'd never give a dragon a weapon. I'm very much into archetypal roles, especially for monsters such as dragons. Giving a dragon a sword or spear would totally ruin the imagery for me. So would portraying a dragon with a psychology so similar to our own that it would choose to become an adventurer. To wit, and for the record, I also cringe at having knights or anyone else mounted on dragons. Wyverns? Fine. True dragons? Not going to happen.
I now want to stat-out a Dragon Knight Blackguard!!!
Actually, my PCs are due to take on a Red Dracolich, the Necromancer/Red Wizard/Archmage that made her so, and her surviving hatchlings (with apprentice dragonrider mages, of course). Maybe Papa Dragon can be a weapon-wielder!!!
MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
EDIT: Just remembered adding the Half-Fiend template makes you an outsider, and outsiders are proficient in Simple and Martial Weapons....
Just check up on the rules for "non-associated class levels" for monsters. As far as I'm concerned there is no associated class when it comes to dragons.
For true evil check out the Soul Eater from the Book of Vile Darkness. Not much can beat your player's reaction when the dragon deals negative levels with each of it's natural attacks.
I don't have that book, but I'm sure there's a living vampire-like template that can be used (don't want to give up Con to HPs!!!).
I'm thinking of statting up an Adult Red Dragon Blackguard 10 in fullplate barding (32 HD, AC 44-ish, Elite Array, CR 20).
I'll be the odd man out here and say that I'd never give a dragon a weapon. I'm very much into archetypal roles, especially for monsters such as dragons. Giving a dragon a sword or spear would totally ruin the imagery for me. So would portraying a dragon with a psychology so similar to our own that it would choose to become an adventurer. To wit, and for the record, I also cringe at having knights or anyone else mounted on dragons. Wyverns? Fine. True dragons? Not going to happen.
I don't like outfitting them like characters (they don't really need it) but I had decided to give the dragon a spear as he has fought a lot of adventures and had realized a deficiency in his attack ranges.
I'm actually inspired to create a Draconic Prestige Class (like from the Draconomicon) based on this PrC:
This is a PrC for Dragon Shamans or Dragonfire Adepts who wish to excell at ranged combat and imbue their attacks with their breath weapons.
Meteoric Drake
Requirements:
BAB: +4
Feats: Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (any ranged weapon).
Special: Must possess a breath weapon that causes energy damage (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic).
Class Features:
BAB: +3/4
Good Saves: Fortitude and Will
Hit Dice: 1d10
Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), Spot, plus any class skills the Meteoric Drake has due to the dragon totem class ability of the Dragon Shaman.
Skill Points per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Meteoric Drakes are proficient in Simple and Martial Ranged Weapons. They do not gain any additional armor or shield proficiencies.
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Meteoric Arrow (10 foot radius)
2. Breath Weapon +1d6
3. Energy Strike
4. Breath Weapon +2d6
5. Meteoric Arrow (20 foot radius)
6. Breath Weapon +3d6
7. Energy Strike (full attack)
8. Breath Weapon +4d6
9. Meteoric Arrow (30 foot radius)
10. Breath Weapon +5d6, Draconic Potency
Meteoric Arrow (Su). As a standard action, the Meteoric Drake can imbue one of his ranged weapons with his breath weapon and make a ranged attack with that weapon. When the ranged weapon (or its ammunition) strikes its target or another solid object, it erupts in a 10 foot radius sphere of energy identical to the Meteoric Drake's breath weapon. All within the sphere of energy are subjected to the effects and damage of the Meteoric Drake's breath weapon, with a Reflex Save equal to the DC of the Meteoric Drake's breath weapon allowed for half damage.
At 5th level, the Meteoric Drake's ranged weapon erupts into a sphere with a 20 foot radius.
At 9th level, the Meteoric Drake's ranged weapon erupts into a sphere with a 30 foot radius.
Breath Weapon (Su). At 2nd level, and every 2 additional levels beyond 2nd, the Meteoric Drake's breath weapon's damage increases by 1d6. The Meteoric Drake levels stack with Dragon Shaman or Dragonfire Adept levels for the purposes of determining the DC of the Meteoric Drake's breath weapon.
Energy Strike (Su). At 3rd level, as a standard action, the Meteoric Drake can imbue one of his ranged weapons with his breath weapon and make a ranged attack with that weapon. If the ranged weapon successfully strikes its target, the target is subjected to additional damage equal to the Meteoric Drake's breath weapon.
At 7th level, as a full round action, the Meteoric Drake can take the full attack action and imbue each of his ranged weapons with his breath weapon.
Draconic Potency. At 10th level, the Meteoric Drake may select one of the following abilities or benefits.
Breath Effect. You gain one breath effect chosen from the list of Dragonfire Adept Breath Effects. You may add 1/2 your Meteoric Drake class level to your Dragonfire Adept for the purposes of qualifying for the breath effect.
Draconic Aura. The bonus of your draconic aura increases by +1.
Draconic Scales. Your natural armor bonus increases by 1.
Invocation. You gain one invocation chosen from the list of Dragonfire Adept invocations. You may add 1/2 your Meteoric Drake class level to your Dragonfire Adept for the purposes of qualifying for the invocation.
well; I have seen pictures in fantasy books of dragons with gear.
I now want to stat-out a Dragon Knight Blackguard!!!
Actually, my PCs are due to take on a Red Dracolich, the Necromancer/Red Wizard/Archmage that made her so, and her surviving hatchlings (with apprentice dragonrider mages, of course). Maybe Papa Dragon can be a weapon-wielder!!!
MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
EDIT: Just remembered adding the Half-Fiend template makes you an outsider, and outsiders are proficient in Simple and Martial Weapons....
Just check up on the rules for "non-associated class levels" for monsters. As far as I'm concerned there is no associated class when it comes to dragons.
For true evil check out the Soul Eater from the Book of Vile Darkness. Not much can beat your player's reaction when the dragon deals negative levels with each of it's natural attacks.
I don't have that book, but I'm sure there's a living vampire-like template that can be used (don't want to give up Con to HPs!!!).
I'm thinking of statting up an Adult Red Dragon Blackguard 10 in fullplate barding (32 HD, AC 44-ish, Elite Array, CR 20).
Hope the armor is intelligent & can teleport onto the dragon. <eg>
I rather think dragons, of all creatures, should be armed and armored to a fair thee well. Like, chain guns and rocket launchers. 500 pound bombs.
Or fantasy-equivalents thereof.
When you have a listen check, intelligence score, and skill points to not only calculate the exact amount of coins carried by the humanoid who walked into your lair, but also tell by his clothes and appearance his social status, region of origin, and choice of vocation, you really should be smart enough to do whatever will give you an advantage in preserving the exceptionally long life you posess.
Magic items should be on your person. Any gear that will increase your survival should be attained. Granted, full plate for a massive dragon is both expensive and incredibly time consuming to make, but sufficient bribery/threats could convince a wizard to magic up a set with fabricate.
Weapons are actually somewhat easier. Hunt down a giant for a large or huge weapon. Gargantuan might be harder to find, but you may be able to barter with a titan.
Heck, even just getting a pair of gauntlets with powerful enchantments could be worth it. -4 to hit for non-proficiency is countered fairly well by +3 to hit and +2d6+3 to damage for +1 human bane gauntlets. Even the drop from claw damage to gauntlet damage isn't that significant compared to the benefits.
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Why not just invest in a very long hallway into your hoard that has a very heavy ceiling that drops on command? Or even just worked by a big rope that the dragon has to pull.
"Are those some more adventurers trying to take my hoard?" *sigh* *pulls rope*
SQUISH!
"Get in there and clean up that mess, my loyal kobolds" *insert evil-yet-lazy laugh*
Thats a good idea too! Crossbows can be fired from prone, so our lazy dragon wouldn't even have to get up after pulling the rope, even if there were survivors!
Now then, refitting a ballista into a gargantuan crossbow shouldn't be that hard...
hehe dragons have skill points; one could be an armorsmith or weaponsmith. As many of them can polymorph into humaniod like elf or human; they probably have armor and stuff in that form too. Dragon magic might be able to handle it changing shape and forming on thier dragon form; heck; there is a magic item "Bearshirt" or something like that for druids and other shapechangers to have their shapechanged form wearing the armor their other form wore. I think it is in magic items of complete adventurer.
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We had a party where we had a hatchling sliver (using the rules from Dragon Mag) He took a level of fighter to gain proficiency in a sabre that gave him DR/fire.
I had a dragon in the party, a LN Blue, named Estherinius. She never understood him "You have perfectly good claws and teeth, what is the problem?"
A dragon wielding a sword is a little like an aboleth wearing a magic cloak on its tail--yes, they can do it, and there may be tactical advantage, but it looks silly.
Dragons are supposed to sit on treasure, not wear it. And aboleths, if they have any accessories at all, they should be strange alien devices made to fit their strange alien forms. Or at least psionic tattoos and ectoplasmic goo.
You never saw Smaug, Glaurung, or Ancalagon the Black with a sword, spear, or armor; and they were all very similar to D&D dragons in terms of power and intellect.
To me, giving a dragon such equipment to use in combat denies them of what makes them a dragon, and just turns them into a collection of numbers on paper without a soul. I realize some people see roleplaying opportunities and story possibilities in such creations, but it leaves me not just cold, but irked.
Well, there is this:
Again Fafnir spoke, "I have borne a helm of terror over all people since I lay upon my brother's inheritance."
--The Saga of the Volsungs
Of course, Fafnir started out as human, and we're talking about the Tarnhelm here, so I think an exception can be made for humans turned into dragons by means of cursed artifacts.
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I could see a dragon wearing a helmet, but full plate just seems silly. Also, I could definitely see a dragon having a very large blade attached to his tail, but I mostly agree with Saern. Having them completely equipped like a human would just be silly. A piece here, a piece there maybe, but they already have natural armor and weapons, I don't see why they would need any man-made armor or melee weapons.
Ah....but what about ranged weapons? Many PCs are canny enough to stay out of reach of a dragon's breath weapons and natural attacks. What if a dragon decided to focus on ranged combat? Might they look like the this?
Meteoric Drake
Draconic Prestige Class
Requirements:
Race: True Dragon
BAB: +18
Feats: Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Proficiency in any bow, Weapon Focus in any bow
Special: Must have a breath weapon
Class Features:
BAB: +1
Good Saves: Fortitude, Reflex, Will
Hit Dice: 1d10
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, Knowledge (all), Linguistics, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, Survival, Use Magic Device.
Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Meteoric Drakes gain no new weapon or armor proficiencies.
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Enchant Arrow +1, Energize Arrow +1d6
2. Meteoric Arrow, Piercing Energy 10
3. Enchant Arrow +2, Energize Arrow +2d6, Improved Breath Weapon
4. Align Arrow, Piercing Energy 20
5. Enchant Arrow +3, Energize Arrow +3d6
6. Seeker Arrow, Improved Breath Weapon, Piercing Energy 30
7. Enchant Arrow +4, Energize Arrow +4d6
8. Material Arrow, Piercing Energy 40
9. Enchant Arrow +5, Energize Arrow +5d6, Improved Breath Weapon
10. Hail of Meteors, Piercing Energy 50
Enchant Arrow (Su). Any arrow the Meteoric Drake attacks with has an enchancement bonus equal to +1. This enhancement bonus increases by +1 every 2 levels.
Energize Arrow (Su). Any arrow the Meteoric Drake attacks with causes an additional 1d6 points of energy damage of a type identical to the energy type of its breath weapon. This additional damage increases by +1d6 every 2 levels beyond 1st.
Meteoric Arrow (Su). As a Standard Action, the Meteoric Drake can transform its breath weapon into an arrow of pure energy and shoot it at a single target as a ranged touch attack with a range increment equal to the bow the Meteoric Drake is wielding. The Meteoric Arrow causes damage equal to the Meteoric Drake's breath weapon in addition to the damage the arrow would normally cause. Upon hitting a solid object, the Meteoric Arrow explodes into a sphere of energy 10 feet in radius. The radius increases by 10 feet for every 2 levels the Meteoric Drake advances. All within the area of effect are allowed a Saving Throw with the same DC as the Meteoric Drake's Breath Weapon. A target who is hit by the Meteoric Drake's Meteoric Arrow is not allowed a saving throw. This uses up 1 use of the Meteoric Drake's breath weapon.
Piercing Energy (Ex). The Meteoric Drake is able to concentrate the intensity of his breath weapon (and by extension, his Meteoric Arrow) to such an extent that targets of the Meteoric Drake's breath weapon ignore the first 10 points of energy resistance or immunity they may have against the energy type of the Meteoric Drake. This increases by 10 points at every even level beyond 2nd.
Improved Breath Weapon (Ex). At levels 3, 6, and 9, the Meteoric Drake's breath weapon increases as if the Meteoric Drake advanced an age category.
Align Arrow (Su). At 4th level, any arrow the Meteoric Drake attacks with bypasses DR as if its alignment matched the alignment of the Meteoric Drake. For example, an arrow shot by a chaotic evil dragon bypasses DR chaotic and DR evil.
Seeker Arrow (Su). At 6th level, a number of times per day equal to the Meteoric Drake's class level, the Meteoric Drake can shoot an arrow and have it ignore the cover of its target, even flying around corners and the like, to a maximum distance equal to 10 range increments of the Meteoric Drake's bow.
Material Arrow (Su). At 8th level, a number of times per day equal to the Meteoric Drake's class level, the Meteoric Drake can transform his ammunition for 1 round into any of the following materials: adamantite, cold iron, or silver.
Hail of Meteors (Su). At 10th level, a number of times per day equal to the Meteoric Drake's class level, the Meteoric Drake can use his Meteoric Arrow ability as a free action for 1 round, essentially allowing the Meteoric Drake to make a full attack with each arrow transforming into a Meteoric Arrow.
No offense, but that seems even less likely. Why on earth would a dragon capable of both flight and spewing gouts of fire, lightning, ice, or acid bother with a bow? Regardless of mechanics and numbers, why would such a such a scenario ever develop?
No offense, but that seems even less likely. Why on earth would a dragon capable of both flight and spewing gouts of fire, lightning, ice, or acid bother with a bow? Regardless of mechanics and numbers, why would such a such a scenario ever develop?
Same reason people developed bows and crossbows - if said dragon can't fight back against dragonslaying rangers (ranger on carpet of flying ring a bell?) or the like, well ... time to get a better tool/weapon.
No offense, but that seems even less likely. Why on earth would a dragon capable of both flight and spewing gouts of fire, lightning, ice, or acid bother with a bow? Regardless of mechanics and numbers, why would such a such a scenario ever develop?Same reason people developed bows and crossbows - if said dragon can't fight back against dragonslaying rangers (ranger on carpet of flying ring a bell?) or the like, well ... time to get a better tool/weapon.
Still not seeing it. The ranger on a carpet of flying does not ring a bell, and the large wings on the back of a dragon make me wonder why such a thing would trifle the beast.
People can't fly. People can't hurl the raw energy of the elements from their gullets. People can't innately command arcane forces. People aren't endowed with crushing claws and jaws and tails. Dragons are. A bow, cross or otherwise, seems the last thing they need.
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Doesn't the Dragonlance setting have a whole bunch of knights that ride armored dragons into battle? In a world where dragons and humans have some kind of symbiotic relationship, I can totally understand it and even think it might be pretty cool.
In a setting like Forgotten Realms, though, for example, yeah, it's a little bit off-kilter.
Dragons decked out in armor and wielding swords is so counter to the whole image of dragons I couldn't imagine ever doing such a thing. I do see Fatespinner's point about DragonLance and I also can deal with the idea of a dragon using an improvised weapon like a spear. The idea of kitting out a dragon with bows or giant swords to me is just silly though. I also don't much care for dragons that use/ wear lots of magic items. One or two items to supplement their powers is cool but loading a dragon down with gear is weak IMO.
The dragons of mythology, and the vast majority of dragons in fiction do not rely on trinkets and crafted things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smaug
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_dragon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_(Middle-earth)
Dragons are quite deadly when DMed (well) as written and really don't need a bunch of toys to make then nasty.
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Yeah, I feel that giving a dragon weapons is a bit strange. Armor I have less of a problem with. The idea of a red dragon who becomes obsessed with metals, smelting and experimenting with different alloys (made all the easier with his breath weapon) and forging himself a full suit of hardened adamantine armor or something of the sort actually strikes me as a really cool notion. Dragons are nigh-unto immortal. They are prone to flights of fancy and often become fixated on one certain thing, often persuing that passion to the detriment of other gains. If a dragon sets his mind to crafting something, he's going to craft the greatest example of that thing that has ever been seen, often taking centuries to complete it to his satisfaction. If that thing is a suit of armor... well... you'd better have some serious firepower to crack his shell because armor bonuses stack with natural armor. :)
No offense, but that seems even less likely. Why on earth would a dragon capable of both flight and spewing gouts of fire, lightning, ice, or acid bother with a bow? Regardless of mechanics and numbers, why would such a such a scenario ever develop?Same reason people developed bows and crossbows - if said dragon can't fight back against dragonslaying rangers (ranger on carpet of flying ring a bell?) or the like, well ... time to get a better tool/weapon.Still not seeing it. The ranger on a carpet of flying does not ring a bell, and the large wings on the back of a dragon make me wonder why such a thing would trifle the beast.
People can't fly. People can't hurl the raw energy of the elements from their gullets. People can't innately command arcane forces. People aren't endowed with crushing claws and jaws and tails. Dragons are. A bow, cross or otherwise, seems the last thing they need.
I agree with the mad guy here. People often underplay that dragons are intelligent tactile combatants, especially the older ones which have dealt with adventurers before. They know that their strength means nothing against a large force and an out of range attacker. It makes sense that especially the older ones would have armor and weapons for it to use in areas outside of its normal attack range. I remember there being a ring/glove/bracor that gave you an infinite amount of arrows. I could see a dragon using something similar just for dealing with super long range targets and ammunition.
I could even see a dragon having wild effect on everything allowing the times to shape with themselves if they commonly take on another form.
I can see a dragon, especially with their arcane backgrounds, favoring an item that allowed limited teleportation or such over a magical bow. The disparity between dragon strength and dexterity is enough that a projectile weapon is definitely a reduction for them. Thrown weapons would at least get the strength bonus on damage. But a quick teleport to right on top of that annoying skirmisher? Much better.
Dragon flight speeds will generally allow them to retreat from/close with just about anything if the fight is out in the open. Only their manuverability hampers them (and a few feats and spells can deal with that).
I had Hookface in Shackled City bail out at 1/3 hp after his buffs were dispelled, he cast waterbreathing as he flew and dived into the boiling Crater Lake, where he healed himself, rebuffed, and then rejoined the fray. The only person who was even remotely able to do anything about it was the rogue who had sovereign glued himself to the dragon's head. All the others were out of spell range in the first round.
I'd think a dragon obsessed with making armor would be obsessed with making human-size armor and putting humans in it and playing with them like a miniatures hobbyist.
A dragon hacking out flaming arrows is seriously silly. That isn't a prestige class--it's someone from the dragon lunatic asylum.
The only person who was even remotely able to do anything about it was the rogue who had sovereign glued himself to the dragon's head.
Ow, laughing hard at bold did not help headache but was worth it. I've actually been considering giving my next big dragon villain a whip of the correct size. This is based on this thread and a recent 3.5 game where an air battle was brought down by secession of trips and entangling effects.
I say give a dragon a whip and the ability to hover(item or feat) and he will own the sky.
The only person who was even remotely able to do anything about it was the rogue who had sovereign glued himself to the dragon's head.Ow, laughing hard at bold did not help headache but was worth it. I've actually been considering giving my next big dragon villain a whip of the correct size. This is based on this thread and a recent 3.5 game where an air battle was brought down by secession of trips and entangling effects.
I say give a dragon a whip and the ability to hover(item or feat) and he will own the sky.
For the record a 10 or 15 charge staff of evrard's black tentacles would be much more evil than a whip. Also there is a feat called "hover" I think it is MM, but it might be elsewhere.
120mm cannon
Avenger Assault Cannon ... start of the art bang-bang ... ^_^
A quickened teleport is 9th level magic, even a quickened dimension door is 8th level.
People might not have claws and fangs and massive arcane power and the like--but the adventurers who poke their noses into dragons' lairs do.
Especially in Pathfinder, a 20th level ranger on a flying carpet who specializes in hunting dragons is going to have AT LEAST a +40 on his attack rolls against dragons (BAB +20, +5 bow, +10 favored enemy, +5 Dex). More like +50 (BAB +20, +7 from dragonbane bow +5, +10 favored enemy, +6 Dex, +3 gloves of dex +6, +2 inherent bonus +4 to Dex, +2 greater bracers of archery).
And the range of a bow is MUCH longer than the range of a breath weapon, or even most spells.
And that's just the ranger. Who knows what the party cleric, wizard, and rogue are doing?
So a canny dragon is going to have some kind of contingency ranged weapon, armor, etc., to deal with pesky adventurers.
Well, I reiterate that I'm unusually picky about these things, but I have to agree that the idea is not only strange, but seems to undermine the very image of a dragon. Just because they have an Intelligence in the middle 20s doesn't mean he's going to start whipping up these weird creations. There are a ton of other ways to use that Intelligence to his advantage. The conversation seems to be assuming dragons will just be sitting around waiting for adventurers to get the drop on them, perhaps while forging their magical armor and what not. Rather, I would tend to think a dragon's mind would be set to arranging his lair in such a way that this drop would be nearly impossible, and should it occur, any resulting fight would absolutely favor the dragon's natural strengths.
To me, it completely violates the essence of what a dragon is and the context of the world in which this is supposed to be taking place (though that last part is especially variable, I know; I tend to favor the Medieval part of pseudo-Medieval). To do this, or (IMO) to give a dragon class levels, is far too meta-game and risks radically and irrevocalby changing the identity of dragons in a game. It sets a precedent I don't like.
Re: Dragonlance. I love that setting and the books; they're what made me pick up D&D in the first place. That said, I will always find knights on dragons a stretch. The way I think Dragonlance justifies it and makes it work is that the knights have to be the ones wielding the dragonlances; the dragons themselves are incapable due to their physiology. Which is another reason I have trouble seeing a dragon picking up a sword and wading into melee.
I used dragons with barding and armor spikes once. The players were not pleased.
I've honestly never used a dragon with a weapon, but when I do, I know the players are going to be dumbfounded and intrigued and really really worried. It'll be a memorable encounter, and hopefully really really fun.
And if taking a sword from a dragon's lair is something to brag about, imagine the bragging rights to a sword you disarmed from a dragon!!!
(Slightly off topic, but I had a 4th level barbarian/fighter disarm a balor tanar'ri once (3.0 and insane DM), and that PC ALWAYS used his stolen axe after that....especially since it's rare for a balor's gear to survive its death throes!)
The one time I used a dragon to take out a party the party had told me they could take any dragon in its lair with no problems...
At level 17 they lost to the grand wyrm red three times before they managed to kill it, and what they didn't know was the red dragon had a clone ready and waiting. They came out and noted the eclipse... when the poor wizard's almanac didn't say there was going to be an eclipse that day. When they looked up the dragon said, "Cute, now put everything back."