|
As a long fan of fantasy fiction, I find that spellcasting disruption is downplayed by mechanics in 3.5/PF.
In earlier editions of D&D, it seemed that disrupting a spellcaster was much easier, balancing the warrior type classes with the caster type classes. In 3rd Edition, this seemed to disappear. Looking through the SRD, most of the 600+ spells are listed as a standard action. While I understand that the swift and immediate actions came out with Psionics mechanics, none of that was retrofitted for 3.5.
This week, we playtest a "speed factor" type mechanic with spellcasting. Simply put, any spell with a duration of 1 round or less (standard action) would be penalized on Initiatvive by an amount equal to the spell cast.
For example:
A 1st level spell would accrue a -1 penalty to Initiative. If Bob the Wizard cast a Magic Missile with a starting Initative of 16, oine the following round and subsequent rounds, he would act as if his Initiative was now a 15.
Having read many fantasy fiction (and being a FR novel fan since Darkwalker on the Moonshaes, I have found that rarely do you see the warrior "ready an action" to disrupt a spell. In the latest FR novel Unholy, even Szass Tamm has his spells disrupted... without a single character "readying an action." I know that novels and RPGs approach things differently, but some similarities should exist.
My players were game to try this new idea, especially since I use enemy spellcasters often. It emphasized the use of lower level spells, even with higher level spells available, and made Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer an attractive choice again. And it seemed to balance out the "cost" of the Quicken Spell feat.
Thoughts?
My preference would be to make concentration checks for high level spells much harder. E.g. DC 15+(4*spell level) instead of DC 15+(spell level), for instance. Likewise for casting defensively (or just rid of casting defensively altogether).
I use that since D&D 1st edition, using the spell level as a penalty to initiative (i also use speed factors for weapons).
It works perfectly and my players never complained against it, as it affects also the NPCs, like the evil necromancer casting death spells on them.
I use different modifiers to the Concentration DC, according to the situation :
DC10 + spell level in defensive casting
DC20 + spell level if not casting defensively
+ damage taken during the casting
+ opponent's BAB if he's actually trying to disrupt the casting
+ miscellaneous factors (terrain, noise, major distractions or perturbations)
My preference would be to make concentration checks for high level spells much harder. E.g. DC 15+(4*spell level) instead of DC 15+(spell level), for instance. Likewise for casting defensively (or just rid of casting defensively altogether).
I basically came to the same conclusion, but made it 15 + (spell level) + BaB made for each character who could make an AO.
Speed factors never made sense to me, and they do even less in a system that has 6 second rounds. If it takes 6 seconds, it takes 6 seconds.
I particularly hated 2e spell disruption. Initiative basically became spellcraft, since you were screwed if you lost init.
I wouldn't mind making it harder to cast defensively, but let's not make things unnecessarily complicated (i.e. return of speed factors - unless you use them for weapons, too. And then, I want actual weapon reach in there. And specific hit locations. And armour modifiers based on weapon and armour type, like plate armour being bad against piercing weapons, and.... and I don't want that game any more, since I want quick and simple fun, not accurate simulation)
Having read many fantasy fiction (and being a FR novel fan since Darkwalker on the Moonshaes, I have found that rarely do you see the warrior "ready an action" to disrupt a spell. In the latest FR novel Unholy, even Szass Tamm has his spells disrupted... without a single character "readying an action." I know that novels and RPGs approach things differently, but some similarities should exist.
To be fair, as a novelist myself, I really don't believe I would ever say, in a novel, that Fred the Fighter readies an action in case Mary the Mage begins casting a spell.
I like to describe action scenes blow-by-blow, moreso than my editor approves of.
But I never use gamist terms.
If, in my novels, Mary the Mage begins casting a spell, Fred the Fighter might gollywhop her and disrupt it, or not, as I see fit for the action and tension in the scene. If he does gollywhop her, I would write it such that either Fred knew Mary would cast a spell and was ready for it (unlikely) or Fred knew Mary was about to cast a spell and has been hacking his way through Mary's minions, traps, and obstacles, and only just arrives within sword's reach of Mary as she begins casting it.
In real life, I don't believe any swordsman would stand around, "readying" but not attacking, within reach of an enemy for any reason, even if he felt he could disrupt that enemy from doing something.
Instead, he would be hacking furiously, raining blows on that enemy to prevent them from doing whatever he doesn't want them to do.
No waiting, no readying, just raining blows.
So I write my actions scenes that way, as a reflection on real life, transposed into a fantasy world with magic and other very unreal things.
Games can't work that way. Well, at least tabletop RPGs can't.
So in games we take turns. Turns means Fred the Fighter cannot act on Mary the Mage's turn.
So D&D, and now Pathfinder, provided a loophole that let's Fred act out of turn if he wishes.
So why don't people use it more?
Well, often other rules negate readying.
Suppose Fred readies to gollywhop Mary if she begins casting. on Mary's turn, she 5'-moves to a safe distance and casts safely. Now Fred has lost his entire turn for nothing. He should have just gollywhopped her on his own turn so he could have done something this round.
Also, according to the rules, you're supposed to name a specific trigger action when you ready, and if something else happens, your readied action is not triggered (in other words, lost). For example, if you ready an action to gollyshop Clarence the Cleric when he starts casting a spell, then on Clarence's turn he smacks you in the head with his mace, your readied action is not triggered and you essentially did nothing for the whole round.
That last scenario (Clarence the Cleric) can be very contentious in a metagamey way. It's very easy for a DM to say to himself "Yikes! Fred the Fighter is going to gollywhop Clarence if he casts a spell, so I better find something else for him to do."
No, that's not good DMing. Clarence might know that Fred readied an action, since Fred is standing there with his sword raised, ready to strike, but Clarence doesn't know the trigger. Clarence should do what Clarence thinks is his best chance of surviving.
Although, arguably, Clarence might be clever enough (he was called Clarence the Clever back in seminary before he graduated and became Clarence the Cleric) to figure out that Fred the Fighter is more afraid of a Flame Strike than he is of a little old mace, so he might outsmart Fred and do the unexpected.
The problem is, Fred's player will think the DM was metagaming, punishing him for trying to outsmart the NPC by making Fred lose his action.
It's an ugly mess.
Which is why I've houseruled that the trigger for a readied action can be very non-specific. Fred could ready an action to gollywhop Clarence "when Clarence does anyting I deem threatening or agressive" and it would cover all spellcasting, mace-smiting, punching, kicking, and swearing profusely.
This has encouraged my players to use readied actions much more than they used to.
And I showed my players the power of readied actions by using them against the PCs, demonstrating how effective they can be, which encouraged the players to use them too.
None of which fixes the problem that it's never a good idea to ready a melee action against any foe that can take a 5' free step and still be effective (with spells, ranged attacks, or magic items).
This week, we playtest a "speed factor" type mechanic with spellcasting. Simply put, any spell with a duration of 1 round or less (standard action) would be penalized on Initiatvive by an amount equal to the spell cast.
For example:
A 1st level spell would accrue a -1 penalty to Initiative. If Bob the Wizard cast a Magic Missile with a starting Initative of 16, oine the following round and subsequent rounds, he would act as if his Initiative was now a 15.Thoughts?
What happens when the caster has an initiative of 3 and casts a level 7 spell?
Does his initiative go to -4? Or to the beginning of next round? What is the beginning of a round? 20? 30? 50?
Is it possible for a caster in a long fight to change his initiative every round? If he rolls a 12 initiative, then casts a 6th level spell dropping his init to 6, then casts a 5th level spell dropping to 1, then another 5th level spell dropping to -4, then a 3rd level spell dropping to -7, etc., how negative can he go?
What about metagaming? At some point a highly-intelligent mage might realize that there is a sweet spot. That enemy orc is going on 18, and this one over here is going on 12, so I will delay until initiative 17 and cast a spell of 1st - 4th level so my initiative won't drop low enough for the other orc to hit me. Where will you draw the line when your players start to do this? Or is it OK, working off the assumption that their character is smart enough to observe the ebb and flow of battle and squeeze his spells into the lulls?
If you allow them to do this, then enemy mages can too. And if everyone does it, then the only way to disrupt them is to ready actions.
And if the only way to disrupt is to ready, then why change the rule in the first place?
Another concern is that anyone wanting to disrupt a spellcaster can simply eliminate the Ready action entirely and just Delay until the round after the spellcaster starts casting. Maybe during the first round they won't know when that is, but in round 1 when Mary the Mage casts a spell that begins on initiative 17 and ends on 13, every enemy can simply Delay until 12. Next round Mary begins casting on 13 and then is buried under an avalanche of attacks on round 12.
Except, now all Mary has to do is Delay until round 11 and cast safely. On round 12, all those enemies who Delayed to disrupt her won't know that she delayed again to 11.
Oh, but wait, maybe the attackers will guess that she oustmarted them and Delayed to 11 so they will Delay to 10 anyway. If it were me, I would automatically Delay to 10. If I guessed wrong (say, if Mary Delayed until 5), I would just Delay again until 8, then 6, then 4 and boom!, down goes the avalanche of attacks again.
But, on 5, Mary will know her enemies Delayed again, and will guess there is an avalanche headed her way, so she'll Delay again.
Then the attackers will Delay in stages of 2 until they get it right. But Mary will Delay again, and so will the attackers, and then so will Mary...
Nobody will do anything. The fight could go on for hours as nothing more than a big stare contest.
I'm not trying to be critical here, because I think your idea is an interesting one. I'm just pointing out possible issues that might arise so that you can make sure you have planned in advance how to handle them.
One thing's for sure, Quicken Spell will be the most useful spellcasting feat in the game. Poor, poor sorcerers who can't use it...
The houserule that I use is the DC for casting defensively is 15+spell level+threatening creature's init bonus. However, I also like the idea of using the BAB. I also make my spellcasters do a concentration check if they cast a spell within one round of taking damage, signifying that all this crap is happening at the same time. We like it. Even the sorcerer in my group likes it. That way noone is readying an attack and the fighter can disrupt spells every once in a while.
The solution I prefer is getting rid of "Casting on the Defensive" altogether.
In its place I'd have most spells provoke attacks of opportunity and some spells specifically made for melee combat which when cast, do not provoke. If you are hit while casting, you must make a caster level check (DC = 10 + 2 x Spell Level) or lose the spell. Specific spells that are meant to be performed in close combat (Shocking Grasp & Burning Hands for example) would not provoke AoOs, and this would be mentioned in their descriptions.
It's a lot simpler than most suggestions I've seen thus far, IMHO.
I've just started a new campaign with one of my groups and we're going to see how it goes.
My houserule is that casting defensively (in addition to the skill roll) increases the casting time by one step. Similar to spontaneous casters applying metamagic feats to their spells.
And then the Combat Casting feat gets rid of the extra time (making it take the normal amount of time to cast defensively) and doesn't give a skill bonus. The feat always seemed pointless before when you could just take skill focus for a +3 bonus all the time instead of +4 only for defensive casting.
The solution I prefer is getting rid of "Casting on the Defensive" altogether.
In its place I'd have most spells provoke attacks of opportunity and some spells specifically made for melee combat which when cast, do not provoke. If you are hit while casting, you must make a caster level check (DC = 10 + 2 x Spell Level) or lose the spell. Specific spells that are meant to be performed in close combat (Shocking Grasp & Burning Hands for example) would not provoke AoOs, and this would be mentioned in their descriptions.
It's a lot simpler than most suggestions I've seen thus far, IMHO.
I've just started a new campaign with one of my groups and we're going to see how it goes.
Sounds good to me. I especially like the idea of getting rid of the AoO for casting a touch range spell.
One thing's for sure, Quicken Spell will be the most useful spellcasting feat in the game. Poor, poor sorcerers who can't use it...
Nah, now they can...
Page 77:
"If the spell’s normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time. The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat."
One thing's for sure, Quicken Spell will be the most useful spellcasting feat in the game. Poor, poor sorcerers who can't use it...
Nah, now they can...
Page 77:
"If the spell’s normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time. The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat."
Very nice. I hadn't actually read that, and was assuming it was unchanged.
In my campaign I houseruled it this way anyway, so it's nice to see PF matching my houserules.