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So, like so many others, I am slightly disappointed by the Alchemist. Sure, the bomber is decent in later play, but early on its rough, and the other two, bleh. My group did a quick fix of a few things, to help our bomber feel more impactful. These were:
-Allowing the alchemist to use Int for throwing bombs.
-Anything the alchemist made using Advanced Alchemy or Quick Alchemy used the Alchemist class DC.
-Making the proficiency with thrown bombs scale with the Alchemist class DC (so he can have master proficiency with something offensive).

These changes definitely helped, but the Alchemist just doesn't feel like a complete class. It doesn't get legendary in anything. It doesn't use it's main stat for much. Most of the feats are math bumps (which is boring). Not that it isn't functional as is, it's just clunky and meh. I have been working on some stuff. This is just rough ideas, but let me know what you think.

Alchemist-
Trained in Perception
Expert in Fortitude
Expert in Reflex
Trained in Will
Trained in Crafting
Trained in skills equal to 3 plus you Intelligence modifier
Trained in simple weapons and alchemical bombs
Trained in unarmed attacks
Trained in medium armor
Trained in light armor
Trained in unarmored defense
Trained in alchemist class DC

Alchemy- You understand the complex interactions of natural and unnatural substances and can concoct alchemical items to meet your needs. You can do this using normal reagents and the Craft activity, or you can use special infused reagents that allow you to craft temporary items quickly and at no cost. Over time, you can create more and more alchemical items for free, and since each of them becomes more and more powerful, you advance in power dramatically, leaving behind those who don’t understand your strange science. You gain the Alchemical Crafting feat (page 258), even if you don’t meet that feat’s prerequisites, and you gain the four common 1st-level alchemical formulas granted by that feat.

Advanced Alchemy- During your daily preparations, after producing new infused reagents, you can spend batches of those infused reagents to create infused alchemical items. You don't need to attempt a Crafting check to do this, and you ignore both the number of days typically required to create the items and any alchemical reagent requirements. Your advanced alchemy level is equal to your level. For each batch of infused reagents you spend, you make an item of your advanced alchemy item or lower that's in your formula book.

Infused Reagents- You infuse reagents with your own alchemical essence, allowing you to create alchemical items at no cost. Each day during your daily preparations, you gain a number of batches of infused reagents equal to your twice your level + twice you Intelligence modifier. You can use these reagents for either advanced alchemy or Quick Alchemy. Together, these infused reagents have a light Bulk. As soon as you make your next daily preparations, your infused reagents from the previous day's preparations are instantly destroyed, and nonpermanent effects of your previous day's infused items immediately end. While infused reagents are phusical objects, they can't be duplicated, preserved, or created in any way other than your daily preparations. Any such artificial reagents lack the infusion and are usless for advanced alchemy or Quick Alchemy.

Quick Alchemy- Alchemist, Manipulate; Cost- 1 batch of infused reagents; Requirements- You have alchemist's tools, the formula for the alchemical item you're creating, and a free hand. You swifly mix up a short-lived alchemical item to use at a moment's notice. You create a single alchemical item of your advanced alchemy level or lower that's in your formula book without having to spend the normal monetary cost in alchemical reagents or needing to attempt a Crafting check. The item has the infused trait, but it remains potent only until the end of your next turn.

Formula Book- An alchemist keeps meticulous records of the formulas for every item they can create. You start with a standard formula book worth 10 sp or less for free. The formula book contains the formulas for two common 1st-level alchemical items of you choice, in addition to those you gained from Alchemical Crafting and your research field. Each time you gain a level, you can add the formulas for two common alchemical items to your formula book. These new formulas can be for any level of item you can create. You learn these formulas automatically, but it's also possible to find or buy additional formulas in settlements or from other alchemists, or to invent them with the Inventor feat.

Research Field-
Bomber- You specialize in explosions and other violent alchemical reactions. Your Advanced Alchemy level is considered 2 higher for the purpose of learning and creating infused bombs. You start with the formulas for two 1st-level alchemical bombs in your formula book, in addition to your other formulas. When throwing an alchemical bomb with the splash trait, you can deal splash damage to only your primary target instead of the usual splash area.
Chirurgeon- You concentrate on healing others with alchemy. Your Advanced Alchemy level is considered 2 higher for the purpose of learning and creating infused elixirs. You start with the formulas for two 1st-level alchemical elixirs in your formula book, in addition to your other formulas. As long as your proficiency rank in Medicine is trained or better, you can attemt a Crafting check instead of a Medicine check for any of Medicine's untrained and trained uses. Additionally, you can use you Crafting rank as your Medicine rank for the purpose of qualifying for feats.
Mutagenist- You focus on bizarre mutagenic transformations. Your Advanced Alchemy level is considered 2 higher for the purpose of learning and creating infused mutagens. You start with the formulas for two 1st-level mutagens in your formula book, in addition to your other formulas. You can spend an action to end the effects of any mutagen early. Additionally, if you consume a second mutagen while under the effects of another mutagen, you can choose to for the second mutagen to always overcome the first.

Simple Bombs- You can use Quick Alchemy to create simple alchemical bombs. These bombs don't require regeants. They lack the infused trait and can't be altered in any way. Choose two of the following: Simple Acid Flask, Simple Alchemist's Fire, Simple Bottled Lightning, and Simple Liquid Ice. These simple bombs deal 1d6 of the specified type of damage and 1 splash damage. The splash damage only hits the main target.

Additives are added by using the specified number of infused regents instead of the current rule. For example, to use smoke bomb, you add 1 regent to a bomb during quick alchemy.

No Field Discoveries
No Perpetual Infusions

(7th) Improved Simple Bombs- Simple bombs deal 2d6 damage and 2 splash damage. +1 item bonus to attack rolls.

(13th) Greater Simple Bombs- Simple bombs deal 3d6 damage and 3 splash damage. +2 item bonus to attack rolls.

(17th) Alchemical Weapon Mastery- Your proficiency ranks for simple weapons and alchemical bombs increase to expert.

(19th) Major Simple Bombs- Simple bombs deal 4d6 damage and 4 splash damage. +3 item bonus to attack rolls.

Alchemical Item Changes-
Bombs- Minor, Level 1; as Lesser
Lesser, Level 3; as Moderate
Moderate, Level 9; as Greater
Greater, Level 15; as Major
Major, Level 19; continue damage scaling

Mutagens-
Minor Bestial Mutagen, Level 1: Your body mutates, taking on characteristics of an animal. While mutated, you have the animal trait as well as the traits or your ancestry. This is a polymorph effect. Your gear molds into your new form and becomes nonfunctional. You can't use items or weapons. You gain the following statistics:
AC= 16 + your level. Ignore your armor's check penalty and speed reduction.
Low-light vision and imprecise scent 30 feet.
Unarmed melee attacks specific to the form, which are the only attacks you can use. Your attack modifier is 6 + your level and your damage bonus is +4.
Athletics modifier of 6 + your level.
Your size remains the same
The types are:
Ape- Speed 25 feet, Climb 20 feet; fist melee strike, 1d6 bludgeoning.
Bear- Speed 30 feet; jaws melee strike 1d6 piercing, claw melee strike (agile)
1d4 slashing.
Canine- Speed 40 feet; jaws melee strike 1d6 piercing.
Cat- Speed 40 feet; jaws melee strike 1d6 piercing, claw melee strike (agile)
1d4 slashing.
Deer- Speed 40 feet; antler melee stike 1d6 piercing.
Frog- Speed 25 feet, swim 25 feet; tongue melee strike (reach), 1d4
bludgeoning.
Shark- swim speed 35 feet; jaws melee strike 1d6 piercing: breathe underwater
but not in air.
Snake- Speed 20 feet, climb 20 feet, swim 20 feet; fangs melee strike 1d4
piercing.
Lesser Bestial Mutagen, Level 3: Increase damage die by one step (1d4>1d6 and
1d6>1d8). Attack bonus is 7 + your level.
Moderate Bestial Mutagen, Level 9: Stiking damage die (2d6 and 2d8). Your AC =
19 + your level. Ignore your armor's check penalty and speed reduction.
Attack modifier is 10 + your level and your damage bonus is +7.
Greater Bestial Mutagen, Level 15: Greater striking damage die (3d6 and 3d8).
Your AC = 20 + your level. Attack modifier is 11 + your level and your
damage bonus is +7.
Major Bestial Mutagen, Level 19: Major striking damage dice (4d6 and 4d8). Your
AC = 23 + your level. Attack modifier is 14 + your level and your damage
bonus is +9.


I played 4E at a Mid South Con. Then I made my group (we play 3.5/Pathfinder) try a trial run at 4E. The "feel" of the overall play was the pretty much the same. We roleplayed, rollplayed, and all that. The only thing that got me was that the combat scenarios tended to last a long time. Then the PC's wanted to go back to 3.5 and we never finished the adventure path. I think we started with 5th Level characters and ran the "Heathen" adventure. We played a couple of sessions before everyone wanted to switch back.

With that being said, did anyone else experience something like this? Maybe, if we started from level 1, we would understand our characters better or something?


I can understand the sentiment, alot of my stealthy characters didn't really like working with allies and usually depended on other methods of getting their SA/SS damage, but it's a good option to have, and isn't it awesome when the fighter's holding off some big baddie and the sneak pops up, launches a full attack and bam, drops the thing on the spot? Beautiful roleplay opportunities afterwards.

"You know I could have handled that."

"Hm, I didn't notice."

"Why don't you say that to my face."
*Ninja dash behind the fighter*
"I'd rather say it to your kidneys, so play nice musclehead."

Oh, and to email it I'd have to have your email lol.

Oh my bad. I thought you were a psychic. Its danecope@ymail.com


kyrt-ryder wrote:

Actually, that seems really fitting for what the ninja would have at his disposal, though I would still recommend swapping sneak attack back in. That ki dash is just begging to be able to flank and get the benefit. Other than that though, it looks pretty good to me for 3.5.

(I took a different approach with my revision of the Ninja, gave him way better ki powers, more ki points, and augmented the various ki use feats to really be worth taking. It came out pretty well, if you want I guess I could email it to you.)

We left Sudden Strike in there because he liked the roleplaying aspect of it. His vision of a ninja (obviously altered through the entertainment industry) was a solo/loner type. Therefore, having group tactics such as flanking/sneak attack wasn't his thing. So, that's why we left it there. We have a tendancy to "ROLEplay" instead of "ROLLplay". Man we need to get with the times. We even have a Hexblade in group too! I felt sorry for him cuz he sucked at first. So I just made his curses to have no save to resist. He only gets a few a day, so it sucks when it gets resisted. Simple quick fix and now he is a big contributor to enemy ownage!

And yeah, feel free to email me any kind of homebrew stuff, house rules and like. We run a ton of house rules and the like.


What we did with the ninja in my group to give it some more flavor is this. We left the basic achitecture of the class the same. So it still gets all the regular class abilities except the ki usage ones (sucky strike still there).

Level 2: Ghost Step (invisible)
Level 4: Ki Dash-Rapidly move up to your move speed in any direction as a swift action(like Pikichu in Smash Bros)
Level 6: Ki Focus-Add 1d4 damage, and Wis bonus to attacks against one enemy
Level 8: Ghost Strike-same except swift action and lasts 1 round
Level 10: Ki Quickness-haste effect for 1 round
Level 12: Ghost Step (ethereal)
Level 14: Imp Ki Dash-enter ethereal plane while dashing (kinda like teleporting)
Level 16: Imp Ki Focus-Add 2d4 damage,double crit, Wis bonus to attacks against single enemy
Level 18: Imp Ghost Strike-Also lets attacks be as touch attacks
Level 20: Imp Ki Quickness-Kind of like TimeStop except the ninja can attack enemies. I just treat them as stunned (without dropping stuff)

We are still playing regular 3.5 and are at level 9. So far, the ninja is not overpowered, just has more stuff to do besides turn invisible every other round. He loves Ki Dash. Move speed as a swift action!

Feel free to comment, critique, or just plain talk crap.


I have a player in my group that is a ninja. I tried to talk him out of it during character selection, but he was intent on being a ninja. Then guess what happened. Yep, he got bored with it and said it sucked. The only thing "cool" he could do was turn invisible a few times a day. So, we came up with a cool new abilities for him to use his ki on besides turning invisible. The abilites are: ghost step (same), ki dash, ki focus, ghost strike (little different), and ki quickness. There is a lesser and greater version of each one. I don't have the specifics on each one with me now cuz I'm at work. Ssshhh! LoL. Tonite, when I get home I will post the specifics.


In my group, we don't even keep up with XP. I decide when everyone levels up. Since I write all my own campaigns, it works to my advantage. I don't have to worry about the players wondering around looking for random encounters cuz they are about to level. My players like it too, pretty much for the same reason. At certain points during the story I will say "bright lights flash from your bodies and you feel like your better than you were 2 seconds ago." We all find this funny cuz we played "Champions of Norrath" a lot.


Congrats! I cant wait till mine comes. She is due May 26th.


Right now I am running a campaign that features a lot of random stuff thrown in from real life stuff. There is the "Southwest Voodoo" prophecy which will bring forth the "Great Malenko's" undead army. The prophecy is protected by some Bard-arians named Shaggy and Violent Jay. My players really like this. We are playing once a week cuz they can't wait till the next part.


I like Fake Healer's idea. I have threatened to kick some of my players in the leg (I fight MMA). Never quite had to but I have had to put one in a choke hold, that was us playing around tho.


The only word I feel the need to correct people on is "masonary". I work with rebar so I hear it a lot. It's MASONRY! Three syllables, not four.


The "wifey" plays in my group (which I dm and pc at the same time). She doesn't get into it at all tho. She really just sits there and does whatever other people tell her to do. I think she may be playing so she doesnt feel left out.


Readerbreeder wrote:

Actually, with my teaching job, I deal much more with generational language issues than regional ones. Something a person likes is "tight," and a private person doesn't want to be "put on blast."

Sheesh, young whippersnappers -- GET OFF MY LAWN, er, language!

LOL! Thats funny. My best friend is my 16 year old lil cuz. He has a habit of making me feel old all the time (and im only 24). He is always telling me that a song is old, or noone says that phrase anymore.


Ross Byers wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
a bonnet is headgear, cake is not a "pudding"
A 'hood' is headgear too.

No. A "hood" is a place with houses...that people grow up in.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
The Scottish gal in our office uses me as an interpreter when she talks with the native Texans.

I get used as translator almost everywhre I go, because I am so good at speaking Spanglish.


One time, when I was at working at this pizza place in the mall, this British lady came in there to eat. I told her that her accent was cool and she got ticked off! She said that I was the with the accent and her country came up with the language and all this other stuff. It was crazy!


Hey it changed my word! That was not used in the naughty way. Oh well. It's supposed to be kunt-ree.


houstonderek wrote:
Bakel wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Bakel wrote:
Are there any words that rhyme with "syrup"?

Depends. My wife is from South Carolina and calls it "SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-rup!" With like 3 syllables.

I'm from upstate NY and pronounce it almost like "stirrup."
Funny, we call it "sizzzzzzuurp"...

LOL!

You pronounce it "skreet"?

Pronounce what "skreet"?

Must be some weird Little Rock slang :)

Skreet = street

Staaaank = stink
Bayba = baby
Arnge = orange
Cunt-ree = country
Many, many more slang terms around my group of friends


houstonderek wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Bakel wrote:
Are there any words that rhyme with "syrup"?

Depends. My wife is from South Carolina and calls it "SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-rup!" With like 3 syllables.

I'm from upstate NY and pronounce it almost like "stirrup."
Funny, we call it "sizzzzzzuurp"...

LOL!

You pronounce it "skreet"?


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Ungoded wrote:
Ernie?
Heh. Wondered if anyone was going to catch that.

I caught it but before i could reply something smart i had to actually do something here at work. Then I felt the moment had passed...


Snorter wrote:
Bakel wrote:
Are there any words that rhyme with "syrup"?

She covered his stirrup,

With lashings of syrup.
The syrup was orange,
Squeezed from a syringe.

Pancakes and syrup,

Pancakes and hyrup!


houstonderek wrote:
Bakel wrote:
What about the people that pronounce it as ARNGE?
They are to be sterilized at puberty...

I know plent of people here in AR that pronounce it as "arnge".

So that makes what you said that much funnier!


Are there any words that rhyme with "syrup"?


What about the people that pronounce it as ARNGE?


RiseFlynnsterRise wrote:

I remember one year I had grades that were C's...Dad was none too impressed...He took my D&D books (the original blue set) away until I had B's...

This, in my humble opinion, is the kind of thing parents SHOULD be doing today.

That's what happenned to my little cousin! His dad told him the he couldn't play D&D until he got his grades up. He went a whole semester without being able to play with us. Well, knead-less 2 say, he keeps his grades up now.

...and they say that D&D is bad...


I have thanked my players time and time again for not be power/meta-gamers. They dont get it cuz I am the biggest nerd in the group and understand the rules (we play 3.5) more than any of them. They dont care about being uber powered, or even multiclassing at that. They just want to "role" (not "roll") play a little bit, hang out with friends, talk crap, and enjoy a night away from the stressful "real" world. The campaign I am running now has a ninja, hexblade, sorcerer, warlock, and favored soul. All players plan on not multiclassing and continuing in their chosen class (even the sorcerer!). I even tried to talk the players out of playing the ninja and hexblade, but they wanted to play them. So, yeah, I guess I am just a pretty lucky DM. But, if I did have a problem with powergamers, I would make some house rule about single level dips.


Players that always want to play the same character concept no matter what campain/setting we are running.

player: I wanna hit stuff in the face!"

DM: We already have a barbarian.

player: Then i wanna be a fighter! So I can hit stuff in the face!


??) Smoke breaks. I guess this is just because I dont smoke, but hearing "while you set up the tiles, im gonna go smoke" gets to me sometimes.


The funnest thing we experienced in my group was a while back. We were running through Red Hand of Doom (I was DM'ng and PC'ing). While fighting the last boss there (dont know how to do the spoiler alert thing), we were looking at a complete TPK. The ranger was low on hp and his wolf dead, the Pally was unconcious, and the barbarian was in rage and low on HP (in a couple rounds he would have come out of rage and fell unconcious). Then, on the barbarians turn, he says fuggit, then does a power attack, and crits with a greataxe. Then rolls 12, 11, 12 for damage. So, yeah, no TPK.


The more important books I get as hard copies. I am in full support of the rpg businesses, so I try not to download stuff too much. Hell, if i like a band I even buy their CD's from Best Buy! So, I try to spend a few bucks for the sake of keeping rpg companies alive and still printing. Hard copy books FTW!

P.S.- I even buy all my stuff from the local gaming store. Even if it is a few bucks more than Barnes and Noble. Because I support the entire system.


In my group cell phones aren't that big of an annoyance. It's the IPODs that drive me up the wall. Anytime one of the player's isnt the center of attention or not in a battle, they are looking at YouTube on the IPOD. I dont care about someone who can twirl a pen in his fingers while I am describing the town to you!


@courtfool

That's hilarious! I will definately have to come up with some stuff like that!


CourtFool wrote:
Bakel wrote:
After I brain storm for hours on end to come up with an entire world full of original locales, npc's, etc, the players make jokes of everything.
This is one of the reasons I stay away from horror campaigns. If you do not have player buy in from every single player there is always going to be one guy cracking up and/or acting out of genre.

Havn't tried a horror campaign yet. My group would rather stick to comedy. I try to come up with ideas that make them laugh with the campaign rather than at it. Like a random "crackhead" selling weapon crystals for cheap. That got a big hit. All my players still to this day still randomly tell each other "Hey I got these crystals man!" And everytime we go into a town, even tho we are on a completely different campaign with different characters, they want to find a crackhead selling stuff. But that way, they can still make jokes and it won't irritate me.


Dont remember what number we are on so...
??) After I brain storm for hours on end to come up with an entire world full of original locales, npc's, etc, the players make jokes of everything.

Player: So, we kill "Duke Ballsack", grab his $h!t, go to "Whore's Mouth", give it to "Queer Bait", and get out of "Whale's A&& Island". That's the plan.

Tho sometimes it does make me laugh. But when I am in mid conversation and they all start laughing and asking where i came up with this stuff, it gets annoying. Maybe I should just use real names and cities?


My game day was AWESOME!! I went to MidSouth Con and won a PHB and a PHB 2! Thats great cuz I was gonna make the jump to 4.0 soon. So now all I have to do is get the MM and the DMG.


I appreciate all of your replies and help to this situation. I guess I just need to get rid of the DM guilt. However, the way things are going, it won't be long until the ninja waits till he's asleep and coup de grace's his behind. Yeah, he actually told the sorcerer to sleep with one eye open.


Yes I am a little too nice of a DM. But anywho, I dont think this campaign will last much longer. The players are going to end up killing the "dumb" one (thats really what they call him) or he is going to get himself killed. Then, he will get mad and blah. So, hopefully everything will work out.


Fake Healer wrote:

If you didn't have the Duke attack him I would think less of the world design. It would have a feel of fakeness because the PCs can get away with stuff that they shouldn't be able to by any line of rational reasoning and that removes some of the immersion quality.

One slight change I might offer....Next time the flame strike knocks the dude to -7 or so HP. That is a nice little warning not to frig around with the BBEBossman.

Yeah, it I ended up doing that cuz during the damage rolling he was throwing a fit. He has a sorcerer (low HP) and saw me rolling a handfull of d6's. So, it just brought him to -HP. Then he got healed. The rest of the party was uber mad cuz they got hit with the flame strike too. LOL. They passed the save tho.


Thanks for the feedback. The PC's eventually plan to rise in power in this same army when they get a high enough level. The other players get a little upset with the "dumb" one. The tell him to wait just a little longer and they will be able to overthrow the leader etc. Its kind of funny. More than likely they will talk the ninja into assassinating him. He finds it fun to sneak up on people while they are sleeping and coup de grace them. He even talked about doing it to the "dumb" one because the group gets mad about him messing up their plans, etc. Then the player gets mad because the are plotting against him. Its actually quite humorous.

The Duke: While I take my army west to attack Delmarth, you must secure the bridge to Dashon...

"Dumb" player: Screw you (insert random insult here).

Other players: Dude, come on. Couple more missions and we will level and get some gold to buy some items and stuff. Then we can bounce or thy to overthrow him or something.

Then got mad when the Duke killed him for stealing from him! The rest of the party is actually tryin to get in good with him until they decide to make their move. Diplomacy on the other officers, doing good on their missions, etc.


The group I am DM'ing for is all evil. I run my own made up adventures. The group is working for a Duke (Cleric of Hextor) trying to take over an entire island to be King. One of my players is always doing something to tick this guy off (like mouthing off, declining assignments, etc). He actually stole some platinum pieces from him, an evil Duke on a campaign to be King! Then, when the Duke killed him (via one flame stike, LOL), he got mad and said said that I am just trying to be an A'Hole. Any advice to how I can handle situations like this where a player thinks the his character can just run around and jack up my world that I spent countless hours making up, then gets mad about his character death, etc?


I have done something vaguely similar in the campaign I am currently running. Last campaign, the PC's complained that the only magic items worth having were ones that increased stats. So everyone had gloves of dex, cloak of charisma, belt of strength, amulet of constitution, etc. and no magic items that actually did anything cool. So, this new campaign we are getting +1 ability to two different scores every even level. Yeah pretty powerful, but noone can use any magic item that increases an ability. So, the PC's can use magic items that actually do something decent without being behind on an ability.


What we do when there is a TPK, is hit the reset button. LOL. Yeah, if it is just one of those things where everyone dies and they were doing good and all that stuff, we just hit reset. Say, hey lets try that part one more time. Then I just "reload" from the PC's last "save point". Which is usually like the last safe zone, town, or whatever they were in. However, this works for my group which is nothing more than a group of friends getting together and talking crap. Seriously, we roleplay, but we spend more time out of character talking to each other than playing our characters. So, rules, powergaming, etc goes right out the window. This may not work for all DM's or all players, but we have only had 1 TPK ever and thats what we did. We just restarted the whole dungeon. Lame, I know, but everybody was happy and that's all that matters is if everyone has a good time.


Hey fellas. As much as I would really love to make a trip to PaizoCon, I just cant do it. I live in Little Rock, AR so I would have to fly and blah blah blah. So I have plans to attend the Mid South Con in Memphis next weekend. Just wondering if anyone here knows much about it/has ever been to one and if it is worth my time or not.


The houserule that I use is the DC for casting defensively is 15+spell level+threatening creature's init bonus. However, I also like the idea of using the BAB. I also make my spellcasters do a concentration check if they cast a spell within one round of taking damage, signifying that all this crap is happening at the same time. We like it. Even the sorcerer in my group likes it. That way noone is readying an attack and the fighter can disrupt spells every once in a while.