I wasn't really here for the magic item discussion or the spell discussion, as I was busy with the nongaming, but I looked through, and didn't see the evocation troubles discussed nearly enough.
I think a simple, elegant solution to the Evocation spell damage(which is really really bad), is to have magical items that boost spell damage rather than items that give more spells. Currently, The problem is that people who use weapons have a nonstatic formula (IE, damage increases a great deal in games that are heavy on magical items), while casters are completely static. A few simple items that increase a damage type by 1-3 per die for specific energy types(which sounds like way more than it is, as 20-60 damage is practically nothing at higher levels).
Another solution would be to factor in ability scores in some way.
Both of these solutions will keep the casters from overpowering the fighters, as, in low-item/low-stat games, the spells will yield less damage, and in high-item/high stat games (in which the melees will increase damage by a lot), the casters will benefit from increased damage.
I like that idea. The Empowered Spell Shard from Magic Item Compendium is one such item. There could be more items that give spells a little more bang for your buck at high levels, where evokers seem a little weak, damage-wise.
This issue right here (the general uselessness of evocation spells) is the issue I think is most problematic and frustrating to my players.
Fire wizards and lightning druids are a very common fantasy trope, and borderline unplayable.
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This issue right here (the general uselessness of evocation spells) is the issue I think is most problematic and frustrating to my players.
Fire wizards and lightning druids are a very common fantasy trope, and borderline unplayable.
Perhaps make the spells generic 'ball' and 'bolt' and left them be memorised for any of the energy types. Then add variants doing d4, d8, and d10's at the appropriate level. That would provide a few more spells of the casters specific 'flavour' to use.
Items or feats to improve the effect of these spells would be good. Random idea:
Clinging Flames : When a caster with this feat uses a spell with the Fire type to cause damage to another creature, the creature suffers 1/2 of the damage caused again on the next round.
Yes, some dice scaling is probably still necessary. And feats are also a good idea (ones that don't affect spell level, mayhaps).
Are fireballs dealing d6's a sacred cow? Maybe evocations should be bumped up to d8.
Are fireballs dealing d6's a sacred cow? Maybe evocations should be bumped up to d8.
I don't think that's what the original poster is referring to. He's looking at letting a PC's items boost spell damage, which currently doesn't exist in the base game outside of metamagic rods. Just as weapon-users' damage scales upwards along with magic items, so would caster damage.
Sounds like a strong idea.
-Matt
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Are fireballs dealing d6's a sacred cow? Maybe evocations should be bumped up to d8.I don't think that's what the original poster is referring to. He's looking at letting a PC's items boost spell damage, which currently doesn't exist in the base game outside of metamagic rods. Just as weapon-users' damage scales upwards along with magic items, so would caster damage.
Sounds like a strong idea.
-Matt
It does, but I'd like to find a way to do it that doesn't continue the current 'PC's as christmas trees' approach to magical items - that is, I'd like to do it from a feat or class ability if possible.
Perhaps an Evoker ability to chose one energy type at 1st level and to have damage dice for that type adusted up by 1 at (roughly) 10th level and again at 17th. So the normal 3rd level fireball doing d8 and then d10, and if we introduce an 8th level Energy Ball/Bolt/Spray doing d8, that would go to d10 and then d12 (finally, some love for the d12).
I do think that there is a case for just making a generic spell that can take any energy type and any damage shape and letting the player choose which at memorisation time. Also, perhaps have Ray added to the above that requires a ranged touch and only damages one target but does dice+2.
Just brainstorming without referring to existing spells here.
My prescription for Evocations is the same as it was a few months ago:
I don't think that the damage is the problem. Sure everyone has more HP, but spells should be more interesting than "I hurt him this much." That's what fighters do.
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My prescription for Evocations is the same as it was a few months ago:
Elemental Damage should ignore Spell Resistance (most SR creatures have elemental resistances anyway) Evocation spells should all have a secondary effect that has a tactical element (Fire burns, ice slows, electricity stuns, etc). If all spells of the same element have a similar effect, that can go in the (formerly rather sparse) evocation school description. I don't think that the damage is the problem. Sure everyone has more HP, but spells should be more interesting than "I hurt him this much." That's what fighters do.
I'd go for both of those in the core rules.
My prescription for Evocations is the same as it was a few months ago:
Elemental Damage should ignore Spell Resistance (most SR creatures have elemental resistances anyway) Evocation spells should all have a secondary effect that has a tactical element (Fire burns, ice slows, electricity stuns, etc). If all spells of the same element have a similar effect, that can go in the (formerly rather sparse) evocation school description. I don't think that the damage is the problem. Sure everyone has more HP, but spells should be more interesting than "I hurt him this much." That's what fighters do.
Not bad at all! I like it both flavor-wise and mechanics-wise. That said, we want to be careful, as we don't want a wizard to outdamage a fighter of the same level. Fighters should be the kings of combat - it is their specialty - wizards can do plenty of other interesting things.
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Not bad at all! I like it both flavor-wise and mechanics-wise. That said, we want to be careful, as we don't want a wizard to outdamage a fighter of the same level. Fighters should be the kings of combat - it is their specialty - wizards can do plenty of other interesting things.My prescription for Evocations is the same as it was a few months ago:
Elemental Damage should ignore Spell Resistance (most SR creatures have elemental resistances anyway) Evocation spells should all have a secondary effect that has a tactical element (Fire burns, ice slows, electricity stuns, etc). If all spells of the same element have a similar effect, that can go in the (formerly rather sparse) evocation school description. I don't think that the damage is the problem. Sure everyone has more HP, but spells should be more interesting than "I hurt him this much." That's what fighters do.
Let's presume that the blaster wizard has memorised nothing but elemental based damage spells at all levels - this should be a valid caster archetype. He needs to be doing damage comparable to a fighter using ranged weapons of a similar level - the wizard will run out of 'ammunition' far quicker that the warrior and will have to fall back to his cantrips.
Vs. a fighter:
Similar damage to a single target, but more reliably (Ranged Touch vs. Arrows) - This should generally be less than melee damage
Lesser damage to a large number of targets (Fireball vs. weapons)
Let's presume that the blaster wizard has memorised nothing but elemental based damage spells at all levels - this should be a valid caster archetype. He needs to be doing damage comparable to a fighter using ranged weapons of a similar level - the wizard will run out of 'ammunition' far quicker that the warrior and will have to fall back to his cantrips.Not bad at all! I like it both flavor-wise and mechanics-wise. That said, we want to be careful, as we don't want a wizard to outdamage a fighter of the same level. Fighters should be the kings of combat - it is their specialty - wizards can do plenty of other interesting things.My prescription for Evocations is the same as it was a few months ago:
Elemental Damage should ignore Spell Resistance (most SR creatures have elemental resistances anyway) Evocation spells should all have a secondary effect that has a tactical element (Fire burns, ice slows, electricity stuns, etc). If all spells of the same element have a similar effect, that can go in the (formerly rather sparse) evocation school description. I don't think that the damage is the problem. Sure everyone has more HP, but spells should be more interesting than "I hurt him this much." That's what fighters do.
I disagree, because the Wizard can dish out the damage to numerous targets simultaneously with area of effect spells. Besides, the Wizard can easily memorize other interesting spells the next day, whereas the Fighter is stuck with his sword and fighting skills.
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I disagree, because the Wizard can dish out the damage to numerous targets simultaneously with area of effect spells. Besides, the Wizard can easily memorize other interesting spells the next day, whereas the Fighter is stuck with his sword and fighting skills.
Let's presume that the blaster wizard has memorised nothing but elemental based damage spells at all levels - this should be a valid caster archetype. He needs to be doing damage comparable to a fighter using ranged weapons of a similar level - the wizard will run out of 'ammunition' far quicker that the warrior and will have to fall back to his cantrips.
I'm presuming that the enemies are typically spaced such that an area attack spell will only catch a few.
Once a fighter is locked in melee, he can also damage multiple opponents, as can an archer shooting multiple targets.
Interesting isn't a consideration since players will play what they find interesting - I'm as happy playing a fighter that just fights as a wizard that just blasts. If you are playing a blaster wizard then you can't memorise other interesting spells the next day as you may not have them in your spellbook and you are playing against your own character concept.
At the moment, the damage potential of a caster using elemental attacks doesn't keep pace with a fighter at higher levels, and the caster can only do that a few times per day. I think that we need a more even distribution of elemental attack spells at all levels and that they need to be balanced against comparable ranged fighter damage at the level the caster will get access to them.
Are fireballs dealing d6's a sacred cow? Maybe evocations should be bumped up to d8.
That's going to be a problem: d8s don't stack nearly as well in blocks of 3x3x4...
Vs. a fighter:
Similar damage to a single target, but more reliably (Ranged Touch vs. Arrows) - This should generally be less than melee damage
Lesser damage to a large number of targets (Fireball vs. weapons)
This.
I disagree that a wizard should be able to match a fighter's direct damage — certainly not with an area effect spell. But the wizard's Schtick is that he does interesting damage, and the big problem with the blasting spells is that they aren't interesting.
If a cone of cold hit you with xd6 damage and limited you to 1 move or standard action for x rounds, that is awesome and "evocative." It also makes room for the fighter to wade in and do his thing. Having special elemental effects not only makes the blasting spells cooler than "CL x d6 damage in all cases," it also increases the effectiveness of these spells without stepping on the fighter's toes. Since they're "tactical" effects that cause chaos on the battlefield and tie up actions, the fighter is actually even more valuable for capitalizing on those opportunities.
As an easy way to get scalable spells into PFRPG why not allow the Heighten Spell feat to adjust the damage cap of spellls. As written now Heighten Spell is really just a necessary feat for creating a Staff of Power or a way of defeating a Globe of Invulnerability. I would change the wording of Heighten Spell as follows:
Heighten Spell (Metamagic)
You can cast spells as if there were a higher level, increasing
their potency.
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level
than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other
metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective
level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent
on spell level (such as saving throw DCs, damage cap, and ability to
penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according
to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
Doug