- Scenario 2 (EL 16): Eight Fire Giants in a stone fortress with 10 foot wide corridors around a central chamber. There are some fire pits in the main chamber that the giants can exploit. The ceilings are 15 foot high. 2 rounds of preparation.- Scenario 5 (EL 18): An 11th level human lich with a pair of iron golem minions. This encounter takes place is a large, vaulted chamber, with balconies on the walls (where the lich starts). There is a large pit in the center of this room that drops 100 feet. The iron golems start on opposite sides. 3 rounds of preparation.
In addition to these scenarios, I would also like to take a look at the following issues specifically.
- How do high level characters compare to one another? There are some inequities when facing one another, but do the classes still successfully fill a role when played as part of a group? Which classes need better high level abilities and what might they be within theme?
- How does the game change if there is a limit to the number of "buff" spells that an individual character can benefit from? How does this affect the game if the limit is 3, 5, or a number equal to 1 per two or four levels.
- With the changes to many of the high level spells to massive damage dealers, how does this impact fights against high HP monsters. Does this give the melee classes a better role in a high level fight.
In our playtest, there were three players: one with a bit of experience at higher levels and two players with no experience at high levels. My own experience at higher levels is very limited.
We used the characters provided by The Wraith (great job, by the way!) and allowed time for the players to pick a team (they didn't know what they would be facing) and get familiar with their character.
So we had a dwarven cleric, a gnomish sorcerer and a halfling rogue, all level 15. They had a round for healing between the fire giants encounter and the lich and iron golems one. Buffs that lasted one hour per level were considered on before the start of the buffing rounds.
I will not go into a narrative of the combats but focus on the main observations made.
FIRE GIANTS
The buffs chosen: the cleric cast Extended Righteous Might and Divine Power, he had Shield Other on the Rogue already on. The sorcerer cast Displacement on the rogue and Mislead on herself. The rogue stretched her legs.
Observations: Righteous Might, followed by Divine Power was still considered a powerful combination. The cleric had switched a spell on his list for Summon Monster VII before the encounter. That spell got disrupted by a giant's charge. The sorcerer used Forcecage at the start for great results. Cone of Cold also did wonders for her (with the rogue dancing in the area). She also was never in any danger because the giants never figured out where she was. The rogue danced around the giants, using her Ring of Invisibility to get into position then sneak, then the Ring again, then sneak. She never managed to get a full attack of TWF-sneaking going (too bad though). The group got through the encounter as through butter. They used very few spells and didn't suffer much damage.
They got a round of healing then moved to the next encounter.
LICH AND TWO IRON GOLEMS
The buffs chosen: the cleric cast Spell Resistance on himself and the sorcerer (real pain for me after...) and used his domain power Body of Stone (didn't get much use after all). The sorcerer cast Protection from Evil on the rogue and Mislead and Fly on herself. The rogue used a potion of Fly, her Ring of Invisibility and a potion of Haste.
Observations: The lich, as it appears in the MM, has a spell list that I found limiting (even with my little experience). I changed a few spells when prepping, but should have asked for the time to do a complete overhaul. It had a great impact on the rest of the fight as it never once got the upper hand. The casting of Greater Dispel Magic by the sorcerer stripped it clean (no real chance for a CL 11 vs a CL 15). Its use, in response, of Dispel Magic had a very limited impact (got her spell resistance down though!). Also, the casting of Acid Fog early on really bogged everything down and put the lich into a dire situation. The flying cleric got a good Flame Strike on it and two nasty Channel Energy. The rogue got to use her two +4 daggers on the golems as the +4 bypasses the adamantine DR in the Beta, and the sneak now applies to constructs! It's got to be the first time a halfling rogue downs an iron golem by herself!
General thoughts:
-Channel Energy has great mechanics and, IMO, is a great improvement. I wonder if it's not too powerful though (less uses per day perhaps?).
-Both encounters were "very easy" and the group could have gone on and on (they still had very potent spell available after those two encouters). The EL were not good indicators of challenge.
-The encounters were not rule-heavy and moved along ok. But, to be honest, there were no summoning or animal companions involved.
-CMBs are easy to resolve.
-Fly and Invisibility have a huge impact on the game (in our playtest, the sorcerer never got in trouble, until I hit her with a little Disintegrate...). Rule for spotting (percepting) and flying in combat need to be real clear (for example, how high can a giant reach? Could he try jumping as part of a charge?)
-+4 beats adamantine DR and sneaking allowed against golems had a huge impact on the playability of the rogue in the second encounter.
-All classe got to shine; exchange of spells and buffs goes a long for a group.
-A wizard is only as good as its CL and its spell list. The lich in the MM lacks in both and never presented a real challenge.
Hope this helps.
DW
In our playtest, there were three players: one with a bit of experience at higher levels and two players with no experience at high levels. My own experience at higher levels is very limited.
We used the characters provided by The Wraith (great job, by the way!) and allowed time for the players to pick a team (they didn't know what they would be facing) and get familiar with their character.
Thank you, good to be of some use.
A party of three characters eliminated both the threats without efforts? Either my characters were too good (but I don't think so), or the whole CR system has to be checked again at high levels (more realistic)...
My group (three players, 4 characters - one of the players guided both Druid and Wizard) had a similar experience with the Purple Worms and the Old Black Dragon encounter... although some parts of the fight - and some rules - could have been better handled by me, the fact that they wrecked havoc on the two challenges has to mean something.
We have to rethink the whole CR system (IMHO, of course).
In two weeks, due to a player who has already announced that would not be present at our weekly session, we would try an 'Over-the-Top' fight (4 15th-level characters vs a CR20 Balor) and see what happens...
If they will manage to beat him (better yet, THEM... a Balor can summon another Balor without error - although Greater Dispel Magic can eliminate a summoned Balor), then this will be the final nail on the coffin of the CR system...
Just my 2 cents.
Thank you, good to be of some use.
A party of three characters eliminated both the threats without efforts? Either my characters were too good (but I don't think so), or the whole CR system has to be checked again at high levels (more realistic)...
My group (three players, 4 characters - one of the players guided both Druid and Wizard) had a similar experience with the Purple Worms and the Old Black Dragon encounter... although some parts of the fight - and some rules - could have been better handled by me, the fact that they wrecked havoc on the two challenges has to mean something.
We have to rethink the whole CR system (IMHO, of course).
In two weeks, due to a player who has already announced that would not be present at our weekly session, we would try an 'Over-the-Top' fight (4 15th-level characters vs a CR20 Balor) and see what happens...
If they will manage to beat him (better yet, THEM... a Balor can summon another Balor without error - although Greater Dispel Magic can eliminate a summoned Balor), then this will be the final nail on the coffin of the CR system...Just my 2 cents.
We had a question about your prepared characters: The wizards has tons of scrolls, while the sorcerer and the cleric had none or almost none. Was there a reason for this? We all play differently and we were curious.
I totally agree with you on the CR system at high levels. One thing our group discussed afterwards was the impact of calculating treasure beforehand and allowing the monster to use some of it. We also thought, and it has been discussed elsewhere, that there are not so many ways to find an invisible foe. If it is that usefull, gameplay would profit from creative alternatives to detection for non casters(don't tell me about flour or sand, they are also flying... and there are no sprinkler systems in DnD). Those poor giants really suffered...
I can't wait to hear about the Balor encounter!
DW
The CR system is currently based on the idea of many battles being faced in a row without downtime. Grinding in other words.
It falls apart at all levels over 5 for more individual non-dungeon crawl fights IMO. Especially tests like these.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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General thoughts:
-Channel Energy has great mechanics and, IMO, is a great improvement. I wonder if it's not too powerful though (less uses per day perhaps?).
-Both encounters were "very easy" and the group could have gone on and on (they still had very potent spell available after those two encouters). The EL were not good indicators of challenge.
-The encounters were not rule-heavy and moved along ok. But, to be honest, there were no summoning or animal companions involved.
-CMBs are easy to resolve.
-Fly and Invisibility have a huge impact on the game (in our playtest, the sorcerer never got in trouble, until I hit her with a little Disintegrate...). Rule for spotting (percepting) and flying in combat need to be real clear (for example, how high can a giant reach? Could he try jumping as part of a charge?)
-+4 beats adamantine DR and sneaking allowed against golems had a huge impact on the playability of the rogue in the second encounter.
-All classe got to shine; exchange of spells and buffs goes a long for a group.
-A wizard is only as good as its CL and its spell list. The lich in the MM lacks in both and never presented a real challenge.
Hope this helps.
DW
A giant can reach it's reach! If it's large it can reach up to 20 feet up into the air or 4 squares off the ground. In the 3.5 Jump skill there was a table that explained the vertical reach of a given sized creature (quadripeds were treated one size smaller). Large creatures have a 16 ft. vertical reach with their limbs.
Yes you can Jump as part of a charge.
So if your Sorcerer was 30 feet off the ground your Giant would need to run at least 10 feet to qualify for a charge and make a DC 60 Acrobatics check to be able to attack the Sorcerer! That's why it carries Rocks to throw...
That being said Jump needs to be taken out of Acrobatics.
--Vrocketman!
We had a question about your prepared characters: The wizards has tons of scrolls, while the sorcerer and the cleric had none or almost none. Was there a reason for this? We all play differently and we were curious.
I calculated the cost for the Wizard to add the spells to his Spellbook, so I made a (long) list of scrolls with added the cost to trascribe them (I made the assumption he succeeded to transcribe the spells on the first attempt). Otherwise, he would have only 2 spells per level, plus all the cantrips and about 6 1st-level spells at first level.
The Wizard had almost no ready scrolls available - all of them were already transcribed on his spellbook...(same goes for the Eldritch Knight)
I know that this is not a wise choice - a caster should have more scrolls, potions and other temporary items with him - but 20+ years of gameplay are hard to cast off the window... plus, the few temporary items I gave them were either staves (like the Druid), potions for emergency (Cures, Fly, Displacement...) or objects where caster level is not so important (like the Wand of Enervation for the Wizard).
I can't wait to hear about the Balor encounter!
Me too! I know this will be an 'over-the-top' fight (the party should supposedly be TPK'd), but if they will manage to win somehow, I think that we have to rethink the CR of high-level monsters...
EDIT:I just noticed this announce from Jason Bulmahn:
As an aside, all of the design forums will be closed and locked at the end of the playtest cycle on Monday, February 23rd at 11:59 AM PST. The Announcements, Playtest, and General Discussion Forums will remain open.
So, my future Balor playtest report will be on the Playtest Forum and not here (me and my party will be able to make it on Sunday, March 1st).
From the buffs you prepared it seems that your players had a very good idea on what they where going to face.
Is that the way its supposed to be?
I played the Dwarf Cleric in that test (Thanks Wraith!). It was fun to use the "big stuff", we don't pay at that level so often.
We did know what we were going to face before starting to buff but not when selecting the characters. We tried to avoid over-meta-gaming (rolling knowledge skills to determine what traits or abilities the characters knew about) but it did come up in another way (see below).
Here is what I noticed,
Unexpected:
-Use of a racial trait (dwarf combat training) at high level: the +4 ac was clearly useful.
-Force Cage as a terrain-control element.
-No need of any cure spell.
-Positive catch 22 of the Shield-Other + Positive Channelling Combo.
-Sneak attacks taking out a Golem (but I expect some fortification-type trait in the bestiary).
Noted:
-Repeated use of invisibility/improved invisibility.
-Fly as compensation for low base move.
-No actual use of the Fly skill (no manoeuvring).
-Duration of 1 round per level spells not being an issue.
-Fair control of the characters by less-experienced, yet quite smart;), players.
-+4 weapons giving an added advantage (adamantine).
-Dispel magic slowing things down but not too much.
I'm not sure how much of a "cake-walk" the encounters were. The casters did expend many high level spells first as we didn't expect anything-else (kind of the 15 min. day syndrome) and I think we could have run out of steam fairly soon afterwards. If we would have had another encounter vs giants (who could have been "warned" about invisible foes) I'm not sure how easy it would have been, probably not that hard but probably not as easy. CR16 ? not sure, but not that much off IMO.
A solution regarding rogues making short work of constructs, corporeal undead and whatnot, while still being useful, would be halfing their sneak attack damage against them.
A solution regarding rogues making short work of constructs, corporeal undead and whatnot, while still being useful, would be halfing their sneak attack damage against them.
I give them DR against sneak attack based on their CR
up to 5 DR/56-10 DR/10
11-15 DR/15
you get the idea..
A solution regarding rogues making short work of constructs, corporeal undead and whatnot, while still being useful, would be halfing their sneak attack damage against them.I give them DR against sneak attack based on their CR
up to 5 DR/5
6-10 DR/10
11-15 DR/15you get the idea..
Like the idea, though I'm probably gonna go with fortification.
Until the Bestiary comes out and solves the problem for me that is.