Ok, I'm running There is No Honor (eberron conversion, pathfinder rules) with a group of 4 2nd level PCs, 36 point buy, max HP (I buffed the PCs because they're mostly new players). They just finished Parrot Island and I've been noticing that they're tearing through most of my monsters. It's all thanks to the Warforged Barbarian (he dealt 26 points of damage to the Huecuva in one blow).
They've had it easy up to now, and when they face Rowyn and Gut Tugger I want to make sure it gives them a good challenge. Looking at Rowyn's stat block, though, I've realized that she's sort of weak sauce. How would you guys buff her? I already know that I'm going to max out her HP to match the PCs, and I'm going to give her a couple of action points. I've thought about changing her bard levels to fighter...
I think it’s really less about her stats than it is about whether she faces the party alone or if some of her henchmen are in the room with her. I think that’s what I’d do instead – put some rogues and fighters in the room with her – and Gut Tugger! She’s not going to fight them, anyway. She’s going to try to escape at the first opportunity. If they get to her, the battle is already lost, as far as she’s concerned.
I mean, seriously, even if she is buffed to the max to match the characters – it’s one against four?! I don’t care how much you buffer her – unless you make her, like 8th level, which I don’t recommend, she just doesn’t have a fighting chance on her own.
Another option is to have “reinforcements” come in behind the party. Then she and her henchmen get flanking.
How about giving her 2 rogue minions and replacing her bard levels with Spellthief levels?
I just did this encounter, and I added 4 minion guards to stand between her and the party, as well as to give the +1 bonus when Rowyn starts singing (as the adventure suggests she does under her tactics) to more than just Gut Tugger. I also have gut tugger hiding at the start of the encounter so that when the party charges up to Rowyn, GT can pop out from the shadows to flank. This also allows Rowyn to use her zombie wand on any fallen minions as well as PC's.
Bob
I just did this encounter, and I added 4 minion guards to stand between her and the party, as well as to give the +1 bonus when Rowyn starts singing (as the adventure suggests she does under her tactics) to more than just Gut Tugger. I also have gut tugger hiding at the start of the encounter so that when the party charges up to Rowyn, GT can pop out from the shadows to flank. This also allows Rowyn to use her zombie wand on any fallen minions as well as PC's.
Bob
What was your party makeup? How'd they hold up against this?
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If I remember rightly, I had tghe party find Rowyn in the practice room, sitting on a throne, with Gut-Tugger on the other side of the room. I made the thievery practice dummies into zombies to give her some minion-fodder. (They shuffled around with all the little bells in their costumes jangling like some sort of jester convention in the Abyss.) The party went straight for the boss-lady, Rowyn took a hit, lost half her hitpoints and tumbled like heck out of there. With some delaying and readying, Gut-tugger let her pass and and closed the door after her. By this time the zombies where getting in everyone's way.
By the time the party got through the door, actually tumbilng through Gut-Tuggers square to get to the boss (natural 20), she'd let a rhagodessa loose and it was behind the door.
It and Gut-Tugger got stomped and Rowyn did the decent thing. (Escaped through the toilet wall in gaseous form and went to plan revenge).
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another tip:
enlarge her bedroom. as it is written, it's a tiny little place, all to easy to get to her and grab her.
also: that bugbear/troll/owlbear zombie (forget what it is)...have it in a closet or the treasure room. as it is, its an easy death for it, so it can soak up some attacks.
with gut tugger, a couple of rogue minions, and rowyn, that becomes a pretty decent encounter.
-t
Lovely, those rhagodessas. Add a rhagodessa, definitely.
What was your party makeup? How'd they hold up against this?I just did this encounter, and I added 4 minion guards to stand between her and the party, as well as to give the +1 bonus when Rowyn starts singing (as the adventure suggests she does under her tactics) to more than just Gut Tugger. I also have gut tugger hiding at the start of the encounter so that when the party charges up to Rowyn, GT can pop out from the shadows to flank. This also allows Rowyn to use her zombie wand on any fallen minions as well as PC's.
Bob
The party is as follows:
2nd level:1/2 aquatic elf cleric of Procan
1/2 elf swashbuckler
human sorceror
aasimar paladin
dwarf bard w/ an AC of 20 and shield another feat (+2 to adjacent allies AC)
1st level:
human rogue
human ranger
I had made the minions 2nd level rogues and also added a level of bard to Rowyn, mostly to adjust for the number of people in the party and so that levelling and xp can keep up.
The party entered the encounter just about tapped on all of their spells and powers, so at first it didn't look so good for them, 3 members down to only one minion, then they used the earth elemental gem from Parrot Island. I was going to keep Rowyn around until her minions kacked, as well as had her keep the potion of gaseous form in her off hand and with enough space behind her to take a 5' step and drink it. But because a large earth elemental has reach, and the party was focused on killing the leader with it, she fled early.
Bob
Lovely, those rhagodessas. Add a rhagodessa, definitely.
But a rhagodessa would attack Rowyn just as happily as a PC.
Bob
Sure, but Rowyn has the chain system. She can position the Rhagodessa somewhere where it could reach the PCs, and she could remain (or tumble) just out of its reach. If you e.g. use the zombies, they could block the PCs.
First buffing the party to the teeth and then buffing the enemy seems kind of counter-productive. Then again, boss fights in 3.5 were always a little unsatisfying to me, especially against casters.
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Yeah, but the AP is for 4 normal characters (standard array, Players Handbook). In my case I'd six PCs, Spell and Magic Item Compendiums, 4d6 highest 3, PH2, UA, and an assortment of 3.0 and 3.5 splatbooks.
Buffing everyone is the order of the day. Mostly I just add 50% - 100% extra mooks (tip from Jollydoc) but when six characters whale on your bad Guy or Gal they rarely get a second round of actions.
I also have 6 players, so 6 characters. Soon there will be 2 cohorts as well.
Mostly I add mooks or I make the encounter 1 or 2 EL's higher.
I gave her two crested felldrakes (Gut and Tugger) to use as flankers. I also boosted the DC of her charm a bit, then charmed one of the fighters at the first opportunity. None of the party would actually attack each other, but there were lots of flankers for her to get a few sneak attacks off. I booster her HP by another 20 or so, and then had her drink her potion of gaseous form once I knew should wouldn't survive another round (at about 25hp or so). I think I boosted her by giving one level of Thrall of Malcanthet. This also gave me a good reason that the PCs would come to Malcanthet's attention once they actually defeated Rowyn during Sea Wyvern's Wake.
Adding a few extra rogues for extra flankers and HP sinks would also probably be a good idea.
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It's been months since I ran this encounter, but I had a large party as well (8pcs at the time), and I did what others suggested - added more rogues to help fight with Rowyn. I had her stash them behind the secret door to the treasure room, so she could pitch her "join us" speech without them, and then as soon as things when south, she shouted some code word and they came through the door.
Unfortunately, they didn't end up helping much - the mage cast sleep and all but one of the rogues (I think I had 5 of them) failed their saves. Our mage was/is semi "morally challenged", and proceeded to coup de grace the rogues while the rest of the party was busy dealing with Rowyn and GT.
In fact, Rowyn was unable to escape, she had the potion out and was trying to drink it when she was taken down. Gut Tugger knew what the potion was, and that it meant she was leaving him to die, and decided to make the best of the situation and join the PCs, eventually becoming a cohort of the water shugenja (he later died fighting in the Sargasso).
Good times.
Sorry for the long post but I just had to get this out.
Ok, I'm running There is No Honor (eberron conversion, pathfinder rules) with a group of 4 2nd level PCs, 36 point buy,
They've had it easy up to now, and when they face Rowyn and Gut Tugger I want to make sure it gives them a good challenge. Looking at Rowyn's stat block, though, I've realized that she's sort of weak sauce. How would you guys buff her? I already know that I'm going to max out her HP to match the PCs, and I'm going to give her a couple of action points. I've thought about changing her bard levels to fighter...
I too ran this event similarly to previous posts however I had laid a lot more ground work prior to it. My Rowyn had not only been involved with Vanthus but was also a childhood friend of Lavinia from finishing school. So she ended up meeting the PCs early and was following their exploits and becoming increasingly worried about the hindrance they were becoming.
Because my group consisted of 6 pcs of 2nd to 3rd level I realised she had to take them on in the practice room. Since she knew they were coming and also due to the runners she had keeping her informed during their progress through the hideout she had 6 rogues take 20 on disguising themselves as practice dummies.
She sat on the throne with GT by her side (I buffed her and GT a level in bard and rogue respectively). In a line before her, to stop potential chargers she had the Bugbear zombie from her private area as well as 2 zombies of previously killed PCs that died under Parrot Island (when she heard about the groups troubles under the island she had the bodies retrieved).
Needless to say when the party opened the door and were invited in by someone they thought of as their friend (she had also dated a couple of the characters to get more info by this time) they were completely dumbfounded. They entered the room and were doubly shocked to see their 2 dead friends while completely failing their spot checks to notice the rogues.
They listened to her proposal to come and work for her. After seriously considering this for a while they figured they had the numerical advantage and decided to attack. One surprise round later and they were retreating for the door. During an epic battle that followed they chased Rowyn into her chambers. Then after overcoming the guard Rhagodessa she had released on the way, she then managed to turn gaseous and escape while taunting the party the whole time.
Since that event Rowyn has been far more of a motivator for the party than the rarely seen Vanthus. So I have just re-written Rowyn to take over Vanthus’s role and the party has just witnessed her sacrificing him to Demogorgon. I’m sort of in the middle of HTBM but we are still in Sasserine (it's a long story). I really didn’t like the way you just start to get all these hooks in the city then off you fly to the Isle of dread.
SPOILER ALERT
Rowyn & GT was way too weak even against 4 standard pc.
She was killed after the 3rd hit by a barbarian that crit her so I just kept on adding extra hps on her & GT until there was some semblance of a challenging fight. Only when 1 of the pc got down to 3 hp did I then decided to let the pcs win. Of course the pcs were not aware of this. However the pc got 1 more hit on her and it just so happened that it was another crit for about 30ish hps. At this point, I couldn't let her escape by gaseous form as this would stretch believability too much especially with the number of damages that she was taking. She died in her chamber with GT and the players were all congratulating themselves on a very hard fought and close victory. I don't think the players would've been happy if I were to use Rowyn as written in the book.
The other problem that I had was the size of the room. Although she had a fairly good tumble skill, the place was just too small for her & GT to fight effectively. She basically killed herself just by moving 1 square to another. If I were to do this again I would place them in the practice room as others suggested.
Fortunately, I introduced Rowyn's sister to the pcs in an earlier session and so she will be making an appearance in SWW for vengeance instead of Rowyn.
The other problem that I had was the size of the room. Although she had a fairly good tumble skill, the place was just too small for her & GT to fight effectively. She basically killed herself just by moving 1 square to another. If I were to do this again I would place them in the practice room as others suggested.
Fortunately, I introduced Rowyn's sister to the pcs in an earlier session and so she will be making an appearance in SWW for vengeance instead of Rowyn.
I also found that even the fight in the practice hall was going to be too small so I increased its size by 10"each way.
I found Rowyn to be extremely wimpy when I first read her stats, and with a party of 6-8 people she would have been toast in a round or two. So, I rewrote her.
Story-wise, her mother is a succubus and Rowyn is now being manipulated subtly by Malcanthet.
Level 5 Rowyn (There is No Honor): www.cat.pdx.edu/~murasaki/Rowyn_5.pdf
Level 8 Rowyn (Sea Wyvern's Wake): www.cat.pdx.edu/~murasaki/Rowyn_8.pdf
Alu-fiend is more-or-less a half-succubus, Beguiler fits her better, and Thrall of Malcanthet... bwa ha ha.
We've just finished There is No Honor and boy did she drive these guys nutso. They used the Earth Elemental Gem to lay waste to her part of the guild, so she checked out the going-ons while invisible. The party retreated to gather the rest of their companions and heal up after the elemental disappeared, so she dominated the last player to leave the area, convinced them to close the door because there were scary things out there, and invited him to join her for some 'fun'. Now willing, they DDed to a special 'dungeon' where she had her way with him and then killed him. The PC ended up being my fiance' so describing the 'fun' was even more 'fun', teehee. ^_~
When she got around to the rest of the party, it became a wonderful game of cat-and-mouse as she flew around, firing poisoned bolts and going invisible whenever she started getting low. They finally retreated from her and she left, figured the guild was beyond saving, and 'informed' the authorities about the guild's location. She wasn't successful in having the guard catch the PCs down there, but with the descriptions that she provided, they are wanted for questioning, though they don't know it yet.
Plans for SWW: The Kellani family helps pay for Lavninia's trip so Rowyn is now a passenger, much to the chagrin of the party, I'm sure. Fighting her in SWW will be extremely tough because by that time she will be known as the 'hero of Sasserine' for outing the Lotus Dragon guild... I need to polish her in case they do decide to draw blood, but for now just the social aspects have been *fun*.
Sorry for rambling...
Definitely increase the size of the room, and give some terrain elements. She needs mobility to survive, and the defaulty room gives none. Consider that big fluffy beds and armchairs are difficult terrain (stops charges), and such.
If your going to give your PCs anything above a 28 point buy, let them pull from more than one splatbook, or let them play anything with a level adjustment, give "boss" monsters Max HP at the very least. If you do more than one of those things, give them Max HP +5 or +10 more per CR. It just becomes somewhat neccessary to challenge them.