I have really been giving a lot of thought to the Sorcerer class, trying to figure out just what I think needs to happen to truly give it a role in my games that is seperate and unique from the Wizard.
I have seen a number of post's suggesting that the Sorcerer "kill the Warlock and take his stuff" which I can agree with to a point, as many of the Warlocks abilities fell more in line with what I see as being a Sorcerer.
Certainly the PF Bloodlines, with their at will attacks at first level, and theme based bonus abillities is a step in the right direction.
With the release of the 4E Sorcerer, I'm really looking at a slight re-tooling of how I look at a Sorcerers role (It's the first thing I have seen in 4E that made me go OOooooo).
I'm specifically looking at how to scale that first level bloodline ability so that it has a more useful damage output at mid to high level.
And what the balancing cost of doing that should be (decrease in spells knownetc...etc...)
So here is my question, How would you merge the Sorcerer and Warlock class ???
Sorceror has always been more different that wizard, even back in 3.5.
The Sorc has more spells per day but less choice and doesn't learn from a book. That has always been the difference.
Now with the PF bloodlines, you get some cool backstory and some features to fit in with "Why you became a sorceror, while others are not"
The purpose of the first level abilities (which wizards get from their schools too) is to give the arcane spell caster something they can do in the first 1-5 levels of adventuring, with out stopping to rest.
It's more of an answer to the 15 minute adventuring day, than how do we make arcane spell casters do something cool?
The first level "all day" abilities are meant to be left in the dust after you get more powerful.
No one expects you to be fighting dragons with your 1d6 plus 1/2 level energy ray.
But If it wa more useful at higher levels (i.e. more damage) it would be unbalancing, then we would have druids and clerics crying about where their free energy bolts are.
and who the heck wants to fight ENEMY spellcasters with powerful, endless energy bolts?
the Warlock was one of those splatbook classes that was totally unbalanced.
Sure It's Premise is cool, but it belonged in another game system or something.
Why would anyone BE a sorceror or a wizard if you could BE a warlock?
It was too ridiculous.
The Warlock needs to be left where it is. Which is to say, not here.
I'll play a sorc anyday of the week just how it is. It doesn't need any help.
The thing with the sorcerer is that it follows to different paths in the same class:
the wizard path with the spellcasting abilities (spells per day...)
and the warlock path with the bloodlines and free at will ablilities
the spell casting part is strong enough i think exept for the first 4 levels where you realy need your team mates
the bloodline part is so cool yet futile since after level 4 you will be using your immense réservoir of spells per day (the only thing usefull is the extra spells known from the bloodline)
Also since the bloodlines bring a physical aspect to the sorcerer
it's BAB progession should be medium not slow
and the spell progression lowered to the point of being secondary to the bloodlines
if both are to be used together bloodlines should be main and spellcasting secondary not the other way around
|
The thing with the sorcerer is that it follows to different paths in the same class:
the wizard path with the spellcasting abilities (spells per day...)
and the warlock path with the bloodlines and free at will ablilitiesthe spell casting part is strong enough i think exept for the first 4 levels where you realy need your team mates
the bloodline part is so cool yet futile since after level 4 you will be using your immense réservoir of spells per day (the only thing usefull is the extra spells known from the bloodline)
Also since the bloodlines bring a physical aspect to the sorcerer
it's BAB progession should be medium not slow
and the spell progression lowered to the point of being secondary to the bloodlinesif both are to be used together bloodlines should be main and spellcasting secondary not the other way around
I hope the sorcerer class stay and that there is no merge of warlock class etc. the bloodline move was a good move, i beginning to love the class once more. hopefully not yet finished but much better then before.
I hope the sorcerer class stay and that there is no merge of warlock class etc. the bloodline move was a good move, i beginning to love the class once more. hopefully not yet finished but much better then before.
Ido agree with you on that
I'm specifically looking at how to scale that first level bloodline ability so that it has a more useful damage output at mid to high level.
And what the balancing cost of doing that should be (decrease in spells knownetc...etc...)
So here is my question, How would you merge the Sorcerer and Warlock class ???
If you want a warlock then by all means play a warlock, I think the class would fit right in with the Pathfinder RPG classes. Many of us enjoy the 3.5 sorcerer and we love the changes that Jason has proposed for the class. It still needs some polish but overall it's a great rework of the class which was decent to begin with.
Perhaps my excitment over the flavor of the 4E Sorcerer has me trying to "fix" something that is not broken in the first place;)
i changed several things in a playtest for my sorcerer.
1) i moved the gained spells from bloodline down two levels, and gave them one spell per day (plus bonus spells from high cha) when they get it. this makes it so they gain a spell level at the same time as a wizard, but are limited to bloodline spells.
goal: sorcerers are innately magical, why wouldn't they gain at the same rate as anyone else. it also makes bloodline spells more noticable. right now they are gained and are just another spell, but one you can't get rid of.
i changed several things in a playtest for my sorcerer.
1) i moved the gained spells from bloodline down two levels, and gave them one spell per day (plus bonus spells from high cha) when they get it. this makes it so they gain a spell level at the same time as a wizard, but are limited to bloodline spells.
goal: sorcerers are innately magical, why wouldn't they gain at the same rate as anyone else. it also makes bloodline spells more noticable. right now they are gained and are just another spell, but one you can't get rid of.
The Sorc can cast any spell she knows multiple times (versatility) over the memorized slots of the wizard.
that versatility comes at a cost, Less spell progression that the wizard.Thats the difference between the two classes (that and the stat they use to cast)
that versatility comes at a cost, Less spell progression that the wizard. Thats the difference between the two classes (that and the stat they use to cast)
i think this "cost" is silly, the cost for the more spells, is less choices.
the cost for more versatility on the wizard is less spells.this seems like a fair trade.
maybe you've never really seen the two classes played well at the same time... the balance is there without the decreased spell levels.
and i might add that because of the way the bloodlines work you would not get this bonus if you get into a prestige class.
that versatility comes at a cost, Less spell progression that the wizard. Thats the difference between the two classes (that and the stat they use to cast)i think this "cost" is silly, the cost for the more spells, is less choices.
the cost for more versatility on the wizard is less spells.
this seems like a fair trade.
maybe you've never really seen the two classes played well at the same time... the balance is there without the decreased spell levels.and i might add that because of the way the bloodlines work you would not get this bonus if you get into a prestige class.
So there should be no draw backs to anything you want to do?
We should get blood line powers while taking prestige levels?We should just cast as many spells as any other class,even though that is a class feature of another class?
Maybe we should all get FULL BAB and everyone can wear any armor too?
The spell mechanics work different because they are different classes, It matters little what you think or what you like.
It's a play test. Does the whole thing work? Is there something that doesn't work when it comes to the sorcerors spell capability?
If your complaint is it's just 'different' than the wizards, thats very unlikely to get anything changed.
Basically all I can understand from your arguement is that the number of spells a wizard gets and the numbner of spells a sorceror gets should be identical?
Why not just combine the two classes completely and call it something like....hmmm "magic-user"
I've been playing this game since 1980.
I've seen more wizards,sorcerors, magic-users, illusionists etc, et. al. played, than a lot of posters on this board has days alive on this planet.
I played DnD when everyone said you were a devil worshipper if you played (us old timers would remember those days). I played the game when people called you geeks and nerds. I played the game when it finally became "cool" and girls/women began playing. I played the game when other variants came out.
In short, I've played the game basically, as long as I was old enough to comprhend the rules in a Players handbook.
so "not having seen enough sorcerors or wizards played well" is a pretty lame statement.
Anyone else here reading actually REMEMBER GenCON 1? Or EVEN remember reading, say...dragon # 100? I mean reading it when it was new, not some old PDF?
Not many that arent say the game designers, Houstonderek, kirth, rumere, anyone else?
I remember playing game (vividly) before there were spells LIKE interposing hand, OR even REINCARNATION (I still consider that a "new" spell)
Refering to the first post
Musing with the Sorcerer class:
Sorcerer:
You remove all the bloodlines from the sorcerer class
- Add a couple of feats and/or class abilities and/or
bonus spells and voila !
I personaly think the Sorcerer does not need the bloodlines
Warlock class
- Ligth armor proficiency
- Add medium BAB and saves
- Add D8 HP
- add bloodlines
- spell-like abilities Based on bloodlines
- Boost ray damage to (1D6/2 level)Max 6D6
range(30 feet+ 10/2level)
And you have a warlock class
For a combination of both i would go with:
The sorcerer described in the Pathfinder Beta
but not my #1 choice
|
|
S
e
o
n
i
The sorcerer is some one with a different bloodline, down the ages long past some one got mixed with some greater being, and from then own down the generations there has been may off shoots that have become sorcerers.
the blood lines really complement the theme of the class they may need more work done to it but as the basis for the class they needed something to solidify that history.
like i said before i do agree with you
the bloodline theme fits perfectly with the sorcerer
but why are they so weak and even useless at some point
they should be the main dish not the entrée
they are completly overshadowed by the number of spells per day
i don't no why the bloodlines arn't the main theme of the class
is it fear of change or critics ?
When you play the sorcerer the way it is writen in pathfinder Beta
your bloodline powers rapidly become opsolete as your reservoir of spells per day gets bigger and bigger....
the only thing i found very usefull was the bonus spells
|
|
S
e
o
n
i
Yeah I know what you mean hence the thought that the class still needs some work, I am not sure but I don't or would not like to see sorcerers lose their spells or way it works but I do agree that the blood line need more work. Hypotetically speaking what would you have paizo put on the retail version of pathfinder? how would you change the sorcerer class so it work better and the community would feel better about it?
My sugestion would add more blood line powers like the ones in the unearthed arcana 3.5 and what I mean is use the bloodlines leve like the intermidiante but not the high one that you get powers every level.
Ps .: posting from my Itouch. The predictive txt is a killer definatly needs paizos review
S
e
o
n
iYeah I know what you mean hence the thought that the class still needs some work, Hypotetically speaking what would you have paizo put on the retail version of pathfinder? how would you change the sorcerer class so it work better and the community would feel better about it?
Well this is it
if you chose arcane bloodline you go traditional sorcerersame as pathfinder + minor ajustments to the bloodline but everything else stays the same (remove arcane bond )
put in maybe
-(disperse magic) you can instantly dispel 0 level spells
once a day you can dispel a spell of half of your level
you get one more use of this ability at 10th and 15th level
its late ill chek this in the morning
So there should be no draw backs to anything you want to do?
not what i said, i said that i think the two even out.
We should get blood line powers while taking prestige levels?
no, i was pointing out that the way i had it, you would not get the bonus spells earlier if you took a prestige class.
We should just cast as many spells as any other class,even though that is a class feature of another class?
also not what i said
Maybe we should all get FULL BAB and everyone can wear any armor too?
maybe
The spell mechanics work different because they are different classes, It matters little what you think or what you like.
that is true, but the same is said for you. i am making changes based on what i like, in my campaign, and telling others what the result was so that if they want to do it that way, they can. geez take a deep breath and relax
It's a play test. Does the whole thing work? Is there something that doesn't work when it comes to the sorcerors spell capability?
it's a play test
If your complaint is it's just 'different' than the wizards, thats very unlikely to get anything changed.
not trying to change the world, just making suggestions
Basically all I can understand from your arguement is that the number of spells a wizard gets and the numbner of spells a sorceror gets should be identical?
no, i'm saying the level at which they gain access to a spell casting level should be the same
1st level spells at 1st2nd level spells at 3rd
3rd level spells at 5th
4th level spells at 7th
5th level spells at 9th
6th level spells at 11th
7th level spells at 13th
8th level spells at 15th
9th level spells at 17th
Why not just combine the two classes completely and call it something like....hmmm "magic-user"
would that make you feel better, cuz it sounds like your feelings are hurt.
I've been playing this game since 1980.
i've been alive since 1980
I've seen more wizards,sorcerors, magic-users, illusionists etc, et. al. played, than a lot of posters on this board has days alive on this planet.
congrats, your old
I played DnD when everyone said you were a devil worshipper if you played (us old timers would remember those days). I played the game when people called you geeks and nerds. I played the game when it finally became "cool" and girls/women began playing. I played the game...
me to. got called a devil worshipper by multiple teachers and my mom. got beat up for being a geek/nerd. i know girls/women that play, and they are still rare.
I've been playing this game since 1980.
[..]
I remember playing game (vividly) before there were spells LIKE interposing hand, OR even REINCARNATION (I still consider that a "new" spell)
[offtopic]Uh...Bigby's Interposing Hand and Reincarnation are both in the AD&D Player's Handbook, which was published in 1978. Are you sure you have your timeline straight?[/offtopic]
The problem is more "What level did you compare them at?" If you compare them at an even level things seem ok, if you compare them at an odd level not so much.
The one thing that annoyed me is only getting one spell known for a spell level. It's like telling the wizard he can only memorize teleport in his fifth level spells. You cannot have a versitile spontaneous caster if he can only cast one spell of that level. I don't mind that they get fewer spells known than the wizard, I just wish when you got a new spell level you actually had a choice on what to cast out of those spell slots. At the even "highest spell level" wizard's have more choice and versitility on what to cast becuase they can memorize two different spells, sorcerers just don't have that option (nevermind a wizard using his scribe scroll feat to just have any spell he wants to cast at any time completely trouncing the sorcerer "spontinaity").
[offtopic]Uh...Bigby's Interposing Hand and Reincarnation are both in the AD&D Player's Handbook, which was published in 1978. Are you sure you have your timeline straight?[/offtopic]
I've been playing this game since 1980.
[..]
I remember playing game (vividly) before there were spells LIKE interposing hand, OR even REINCARNATION (I still consider that a "new" spell)
They were "new" considering the basic game.
Considering the PHB and DMG and MM were what you needed to play Ad&D and they were all $20 brand new, $60 was alot of money back in the early 80s.
The Basic boxset could be had for $29.99.
There were also alot more modules written for the basic box set earlier on.
The problem is more "What level did you compare them at?" If you compare them at an even level things seem ok, if you compare them at an odd level not so much.
The one thing that annoyed me is only getting one spell known for a spell level. It's like telling the wizard he can only memorize teleport in his fifth level spells. You cannot have a versitile spontaneous caster if he can only cast one spell of that level. I don't mind that they get fewer spells known than the wizard, I just wish when you got a new spell level you actually had a choice on what to cast out of those spell slots. At the even "highest spell level" wizard's have more choice and versitility on what to cast becuase they can memorize two different spells, sorcerers just don't have that option (nevermind a wizard using his scribe scroll feat to just have any spell he wants to cast at any time completely trouncing the sorcerer "spontinaity").
Yea, sorcerors can use scrolls too, an there never seems to be a shoratge of them.
Our sorceress right now is 4th level sorc/3rd level dragon disciple.
So basically a 6th level sorc.
She has ONE 3rd level spell, she had a hard decision taking it (3rd level has alot of options). Basically it came down to vampiric touch, because of the whole claws theme (ie see how it works scratch scratch heal heal... whatever)
But fireball was very tempting.
She could cast the spell three times. But only has one choice.
It's weird because everntually the sorc gets 6 spessl per level, and the wiz only 4, although the wiz can use INT bonus for extra slots.
Not sure exactly what to do about it.
Sorc's make better blasters. If you get fireball at level 3 you dont think twice about being able to toss 3 of them a day, but as far utility or choice? hmmm not so much.
S
e
o
n
iAh you make some really valuable points, some thing should be done about it.. Many they get an extra spell when you reach the required level to cast a new circle of spell and only then. Would that be valid? What would you do?
I find that the key to your question is the bonus spells
there should be more bonus spells focused on the bloodlinesin addition all bonus spells should be treated has spell-like ablilities (still takes out a spellslot of the apropriate level to cast)
EONI i'm working on how to present the Sorcerer in a more bloodline focused way just like you asked me to hihi
I'm re writing almost everything
my game is on hold for a while i have time to spare and it's fun
here is a spoiler
Sorcerer
Class features: All class features of the sorcerer are determined by the bloodlines.
Bloodlines: Each sorcerer has tainted blood somewhere in her lineage or a strange source of magic in her heritage that are called bloodlines. All her abilities are determined by her bloodline.
A sorcerer must pick one bloodline upon taking her first level (this choice can not be changed)
Note: At Character creation a sorcerer can choose to have
double bloodlines:(In this case he loses the ability to cast spells except 0 level spells and bonus spells witch are treated as
spell-like abilities)
Spells: A sorcerer can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time
To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to 10 + the spell level
The Difficulty Class save (DC) or (saving throw) against a sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier. The number of spells she knows and spells per day she can cast are determined by her bloodline.
There will be a slow spell progression for medium BAB bloodlines
and a normal spell progression for poor BAB bloodlines
There will be a new progression for the bonus spells
I think it will turn out very different than i excpected
i will have to include 4 or 5 new sorcerer only feats
the description of each bloolines will be much longer
but everything will be included in each bloodline
except for the tables
If this is not interesting please tell me and i'll stop posting the spoilers
|
|
S
e
o
n
i
Right seems that you are quite busy there and having fun.
@ Pendagast
Right i know your feeling, how would you feel if the character when reaching the level required to cast a spell from a new circle of spells (like you example level 3) you were to give the sorcerer a extra spell so they would at least have some choice at that level. on the next level progression would be normal so the bonus spell (bonus as just an extra spell for choice) would only be at key levels where they reach a new circle.
I just want to clarify if doing that would make a sorcerer a bit better at that level then a wizard. and if they are one solution is to remove the 1 extra spell choice they get from the next level and only the next level after they reach the new spell circle.
what do you guys think?
S
e
o
n
iRight seems that you are quite busy there and having fun.
@ Pendagast
Right i know your feeling, how would you feel if the character when reaching the level required to cast a spell from a new circle of spells (like you example level 3) you were to give the sorcerer a extra spell so they would at least have some choice at that level. on the next level progression would be normal so the bonus spell (bonus as just an extra spell for choice) would only be at key levels where they reach a new circle.
I just want to clarify if doing that would make a sorcerer a bit better at that level then a wizard. and if they are one solution is to remove the 1 extra spell choice they get from the next level and only the next level after they reach the new spell circle.
what do you guys think?
Allowing a Sorcerer to pick his/her bonus Bloodline Spell at the same level a Wizard gains the new spell level list (that is, bonus 1st-level spell at 1st, bonus 2nd-level spell at 3rd, bonus 3rd-level spell at 5th, and so on) and allowing it to have 0 spell slots per day of that same level (like a Bard or Paladin - in order to cast it if he/she has a high enough Charisma) is an idea that has already been proposed in these forums; and a GOOD idea IMHO, I might add.
A Sorcerer would still be less efficient than a Wizard, but not completely crippled (5th level is the deadest of levels for a poor Sorcerer...Wizard can cast Fireball and Fly, he cannot even cast an Elemental Bloodline Protection from Energy...worse yet, he gains this 'trademark' spell as a bonus spell ONE LEVEL after he gains his 3rd-level spells, at 7th level !!!)So, count me in for a solution like this.
I like the idea of allowing the Sorcerer to access his bloodline spell at the same level as a Wizard, but I'm not sure I'm clear on how your suggesting they gain the spell slot to cast with ?
Are you suggesting that it be based off of ability based (in this case Cha) bonus spells for having a high charisma ???
I like the idea of allowing the Sorcerer to access his bloodline spell at the same level as a Wizard, but I'm not sure I'm clear on how your suggesting they gain the spell slot to cast with ?
Are you suggesting that it be based off of ability based (in this case Cha) bonus spells for having a high charisma ???
some are, i just gave my pc's 1 spell per/day for that level. i was going to give them 0 with bonus spells from high cha being the way to cast the level, but jason got rid of all the 0's on the lists. and 1 spell you don't get to pick a day is nice, and not a killer.
Here's what I want to see "preserved":
The wizard is the master of spells, He/she spends alot of time studying spells and eventually will know most of them.
The sorceror is a little bit like a superhero. Take cyclops from the xmen, He's a one trick pony (eye blasts) but can do a bunch of them.
As opposed to docotor strange (even though hes called a sorceror) who seems to have enough "spells" memeorized to deal with any occasion, the only ones he uses more than once come from a ring, amulaet or other magic items.
So blast blast blast, is the sorcerors cup of tea, and the wizard gets one item from everything in the cafeteria, including the cup of tea.
(yea i know wizards can memeorize multiple spells multple times, but if they are going to do that they might as well have a wand of whatever)
I also like the idea, that if captured and out spells, a sorceror has his tomorrow, the wizard however is kinda stuck without his spell book.
Just preserve the differences. Thats all Im saying.
If the Sorc gets something then the wizard needs something to keep the gap there.
|
|
S
e
o
n
i
I agree, at the moment thought the sorcerer has a great disadvantage that reaching for example level 6 they can only cast 1 spell 3 times. i think what people is asking is that the bonus spell know granted by the bloodline should be brought forward one level. reaching level 6 they would be able to cast not one but two spells. one being the spell they have a choice about it and the other the fixed know spell granted by the bloodline. no other changes just that. the table we are talking about is 4-13: Sorcerer Spell Known that would stay the same but the known spell bonus spell granted by the bloodlines would from: (3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19) to (2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18) so at that level the sorcerer would have the choice to chose a new spell from the wizard and sorcerer list and get the fixed spell granted by their heritage.
I also like the idea, that if captured and out spells, a sorceror has his tomorrow, the wizard however is kinda stuck without his spell book.
that is true, but have you ever seen a dm, in 3rd edition do it, i swear the pc's would nail him to the wall. i'm going to do that to one of my players soon....hehehe
I actually like the idea of droping the bloodline bonus spells to an earlier level, it places the focus on the "theme" that specific Sorcerer is tied to nicely.
I also don't see it as "stealing the Wizards thunder" to be able to cast that one spell at the equivalant level a Wizard could.
How about something like this....
At 1st level, the Sorcerer gains his first bonus bloodline spell, and one additional spell slot.
At 3rd level, he gains his second level bloodline spell, and the additional first level spell-slot "matures" into a second level spell-slot.
At 5th level, he gains his third level bloodline spell, and the second level spell-slot matures into a third level spell-slot...
And so on.....and so on......
I think that nicely pulls the focus back to the theme signified by his bloodline, bonus spells for high charisma would still apply, without giving him a "boat load" of spell at the same progression as a Wizard.
Opinions ?
some are, i just gave my pc's 1 spell per/day for that level. i was going to give them 0 with bonus spells from high cha being the way to cast the level, but jason got rid of all the 0's on the lists. and 1 spell you don't get to pick a day is nice, and not a killer.
Well, not completely true; Paladins and Rangers still have 0's on their Spells per Day list. Giving a Sorcerer 0 2nd-level spells per day at 3rd level, 0 3rd-spells per day at 5th level (and so on), and giving them their Bloodline Bonus Spell at the same level would give them a boost without changing completely their class flavor (lot of spells, but little versatility).
Just my 2c.
S
e
o
n
iJust lowering the progression of known spell bonus spell granted by the bloodlines should be sufficient.
i agree
i am currently play testing getting the bonus spells two levels sooner. so far so good, though they are only 1st level. the 3 1st level spells is kinda nice from what i've seen though.
|
|
S
e
o
n
i
i am currently play testing getting the bonus spells two levels sooner. so far so good, though they are only 1st level. the 3 1st level spells is kinda nice from what i've seen though.
Two Levels lower is more then we were talking about but let us know how it goes. Your feeling and the player feelings about the change etc. When they get at higher levels like 7 etc.
i am currently play testing getting the bonus spells two levels sooner. so far so good, though they are only 1st level. the 3 1st level spells is kinda nice from what i've seen though.
I'm planning the same thing as soon as our current game is wrapped up.
I will be testing the Wild mage bloodline I have been working on, and plan to drop the bonus spell levels down two levels, to try and bring the bloodline abilities more to the forefront of the character.