That's right, I'm serious. Get rid of them. Take them all and throw them out the window. Spellcasters are already overpowered in play at higher levels - giving them the ability to instantly slap on Quicken and Empower Feats via these potent magical items (especially to 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells, which wouldn't even normally qualify for being paired with these Feats) is just insane.
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It's the ability to cast a spell, of a higher effective spell level than the caster can normally prepare, that causes most problems.
This applies equally to other D&D3.5 means of adding metamagic effects without the increased spell level, such as Divine Metamagic (with or without being fuelled by the notorious Nightsticks).
I see little problem with allowing, say, a Wizard 9, to use a Quicken Rod, to cast a swift 1st-level spell (which would normally be 5th level, and within his power), but use only a 1st-level slot.
It's when that same Wizard 9 uses the rod to cast a Quickened 5th-level spell, that would normally be a 9th-level spell.
A clause that prohibits casting of a spell that would otherwise be out of the caster's ability, would go a long way to rectify things.
Or even to force a caster level check, for the difference between caster's level and the level normally required to cast the meta-version? (In the second example above, Required Caster Level 17, minus Actual Caster Level 9 = (8 in 20) = 40% chance of spell failure)?
the problem is really with the greater rods.(maximise and quicken beeing the worst of em)
and feats like sudden maxemise/quicken...at first it dosent look that bad, hey its only 1 (or 3 spells in case of the rod) a day. but in my expirience the spellcaster just safes the spell for a major encounter like your main villan...
worse than the 2 effects mentioned above is energy substitude. how many time i have seen my carfully made bad guy blown to hell by an acid maxemised meteor swarm followed by a quickened somthing to round things off.
to able to apply thous effects to 9th lvl spells really screws the balance...especially with high lvl spels that do not have a seving trow.
vever seen a lich after he has been hit by a a maximised meteor swarm, followd by an empowered quickend disentegrated.(60d6 points of dmg from a 20th lvl wizard)
Instead of just tossing them I think that they should just be limited to effecting spells from levels 0-4 . My reason is that the item is worthwhile to those that dabble in magic but can’t perform high spell-adjustments (examples: Fighter/Sorcerer; Ranger; Paladin; …maybe Bard) and yet retain ‘some’ usefulness to full-spell casters without making them overpowered (as said above, metamagicing the unmetamagicable). Perhaps with a further limit of not being able to increase the spells effective level past a 9th level spell slot…or simpler said, normal rules for metamagic apply.
It’s a nifty item and it can be put to use in a non-broken way, but the Opening Poster (and everyone else) is right in that its simple too powerful as is.
I certainly wouldn't mind them being dumped. Limited to "castable" or caster level check would work too.
I would prefer to see them limited to one, maybe two spell levels (so a least would do 1~2, lesser 3~4, normal 5~6, Greater 7~8, and nothing does level 9 spells) and never be able to raise a spell over 9th level.
So the quicken metamagic rod would at max be able to affect a 5th level spell, while a still metamagic rod would be able to affect a 8th level spell (if it was a greater metamagic rod).
I'm pretty comfortable with the current 3xday limit, but I must say I rarely see metamagic rods in play. The only one i've seen is the one I use in RotR and it's a normal metamagic rod of extend spell.
I think limiting them to "castable" isn't really workable, and kind of defeats the purpose of the metamagic rod... which is to make metamagic more available and used more often.
Again YMMV but I've been the only player in my area to regularly take and use metamagic, and while I haven't been underwhelmed I've never really been impressed with it either.
I like the idea of not being able to raise spells over 9th level. I would extend this to all uses of metamagic, not just the rods though. This is one of the things I don't care for about metamagic in general, it's also a big problem with metamagic mastery.
The problem is, as Dennis da Ogre already said , that currently the Metamagic Mastery of Universalist Wizards works more or less the same - they CAN Quicken a Meteor Swarm at the cost of 4 daily uses of their ability, for example... and this is something that they can do without paying any money.
(I TRULY hope that I'm wrong here and they cannot overpower a spell over their maximum spell slot allowed - but nothing in the rules says so)
Only as an univerisalist, and even then only twice a day. Generally I can think of alot of other things I would want to spend half my daily metamagic resources on, but here is the question:
how much of their resources did they just use on that one encounter? The most metamagic mastery will give you is 10 uses a day... so they burned 2/5 of that already, and a ninth level spell, 1/6 of those minimum.
Granted it didn't cost them gold, but then HP doesn't cost gold either. I would be much more worried about the player that uses quicken to cast resilient sphere on himself after his action(s) to avoid damage/spells/et al from the opponent. It will take at least a standard action and a spell to get him out, or he can do it again next round after dismissing the "bubble". If his opponent's ready an action for when he drops the bubble, he can instead start full round casting to summon some more allies, again wasting their action.
A quickened Time Stop would be more troubling than the meteor swarm, but at that point the Time Stop is the issue, not how quickly they got it off, is what is causing the problem.
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I'm for saying with any free metamagic, sudden feats, universalist, and rods, that you can't cast a spell that would otherwise be higher than your character could cast. I've seen spellcasters own by taking advantage of every "free" metamagic ability they could get their hands on. I've also seen the constant reusing of one ability to get free metamagic and even that was annoying. only because they would use it on their most powerful spells, so when they used it it was always overpowered when dealing with a level appropriate encounter, which are based around casters not being able to cast a spell that
So in my book I want all the free stuff to stick around. but be limited, of course I would actually allow them to then cast at higher than they would be able to, but it would require a spellcraft check of DC25+ 5 per every level higher than the highest level spell you can cast. So if you are able to cast 5th level spells and you wanted to use a rod to still a 5th level spell, the DC would be 30, and if you wanted to maximise a 5th level spell, the DC would be 45. but if you wanted to maximise a 2nd level spell the DC would be 30. Failure means you loose the spell.
Only as an univerisalist, and even then only twice a day. Generally I can think of alot of other things I would want to spend half my daily metamagic resources on, but here is the question:
how much of their resources did they just use on that one encounter? The most metamagic mastery will give you is 10 uses a day... so they burned 2/5 of that already, and a ninth level spell, 1/6 of those minimum.
Metamagic rods are limits in number of uses per day also. The point is ultimately that it allows a caster to cast spells well beyond what their normal limit would be. 8th level casters can quicken his highest level spell once per day which means he can start an encounter with 2 of his highest level spells, for many encounters that can be a near instant kill even on a tough encounter. With the right rod he can do it 4 times per day.
If it's appropriate for a 9th level character to have cast 5th level spells then why should some be given the ability to cast the equivalent of 9th level spells?
Has anyone ever seen metamagic rods really abused? The only one I ever see players buy is the rod of Extend Spell (for extending low-level buff spells). I agree that the Extend Spell rod is pretty cheap (too cheap?) for what it gives you.
They are a great item for high level play in Age of Worms they were great for both us players and the DM because they used them on us too
Again they've used up alot of resources doing so. At eight level that one encounter has done what it should do: It ate up a bunch of resources. They are out of metamagic mastery (a resource) they are out of 4th level spells (a resource) and have only taken out one encounter. All they have left for the day is 3rd level and under spells.
They also did not through out a spell of 9th level. They threw out a spell that is 4th level, that they just happen to have a trick on. The damages are not improved, the DC's are not improved, the effects of the spell are not improved, they simply cast twice in one round, and now they are completely out of that ability.
Encounters are supposed to be dangerous, not deadly (with the exceptions of big bad bosses). Generally the enemy is going to be throwing everything they got at the PC's, while the PC's are going in short changed from the get go. If the PC's find a way to stretch out their resources it doesn't hurt my feelings. If the PC's instead want to "Nova" out their best stuff on one encounter it also doesn't hurt my feelings.
What is he going to get out on those two fourth level spells? A tough encounter for a 9th level character is going to be around 13th level (Tough encounter, not an equal encounter). I'm still giving more weight to the 13th level thing's abilities (possibly including the same abilities the PC's have).
What two 4th level spells that are cast in the same round are going to be an instant kill for a tough encounter for this party?
Hijack:
Can you invest the same rod with multiple properties so the caster only has to carry around on, but risks loosing everything if it destroyed? How about different kinds of Rods, like Maximize Spell and Withering?
Hijack:
Can you invest the same rod with multiple properties so the caster only has to carry around on, but risks loosing everything if it destroyed? How about different kinds of Rods, like Maximize Spell and Withering?
thats a cool idea lefty, i think i had the same question at one point too.
Has anyone ever seen metamagic rods really abused? The only one I ever see players buy is the rod of Extend Spell (for extending low-level buff spells). I agree that the Extend Spell rod is pretty cheap (too cheap?) for what it gives you.I have and I hated it. made my martial character feel wimpy
What type of rods were they?
The problem is, as Dennis da Ogre already said , that currently the Metamagic Mastery of Universalist Wizards works more or less the same - they CAN Quicken a Meteor Swarm at the cost of 4 daily uses of their ability, for example... and this is something that they can do without paying any money.
(I TRULY hope that I'm wrong here and they cannot overpower a spell over their maximum spell slot allowed - but nothing in the rules says so)
Generalist Wizard ability = also too powerful. I like the idea that Clerics and Druids and Wizards might be able to get some neat things for being specialists or the like, but I still think that they are getting a bit too much out of the deal right now. I understand that making DCs of these abilities based on CHA instead of their main casting stat does reduce the power of some of these abilities, but, ehhhh...
Again they've used up alot of resources doing so.
You could just as easily justify giving the character 2 8-9th level spells per day using this logic. "They only have 2 so if they use their one 8th level spell they are using up a lot of resources doing so."
Ultimately, it allows the character to sneak a free rounds (or three for the rod) worth of spells in. This allows the caster to do significantly more powerful things. I'm not going to argue back and forth about how valuable getting an extra round of combat is even once per day. Suffice to say that I think the metamagic cost of +4 levels is pretty reasonable.
Again they've used up alot of resources doing so.You could just as easily justify giving the character 2 8-9th level spells per day using this logic. "They only have 2 so if they use their one 8th level spell they are using up a lot of resources doing so."
Ultimately, it allows the character to sneak a free rounds (or three for the rod) worth of spells in. This allows the caster to do significantly more powerful things. I'm not going to argue back and forth about how valuable getting an extra round of combat is even once per day. Suffice to say that I think the metamagic cost of +4 levels is pretty reasonable.
Except the part where they are still only casting a 4th level spell. It's not a wish, it's not weird, it's not implosion, mage's disjunction, or prismatic wall. A fourth level spell just isn't the equal to any of those spells. Even two fourth level spells in the same round isn't equal to those spells.
At the end of the day what you have is a wizard casting spells like two wizards of his level, once.
There is a huge difference between 2 fourth level spells in one turn (the actual effect of quicken spell) and a single eighth or nineth level spell.
No one has disagreed with the metamagic cost, you are going way afield, I'm simply saying that the ability to cast a 4th level spell, quickened once per day at 9th level isn't that huge of an ability.
My point is everything in these senarios will be working like it should: The encounter ate up the correct amount of resources (and is highly unlikely to drop just from 2 fourth level spells), the wizard didn't cast wish or something like that that is completely out of his ability (he could just take leadership and have a 7th level wizard cohort and actually double his actions instead of using metamagic), and the party moves on.
That's right, I'm serious. Get rid of them. Take them all and throw them out the window. Spellcasters are already overpowered in play at higher levels - giving them the ability to instantly slap on Quicken and Empower Feats via these potent magical items (especially to 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells, which wouldn't even normally qualify for being paired with these Feats) is just insane.
Yes. Get rid of them or nerf them somehow.
It's also very unclear how they are used. Do the caster have to hold one in his/her hand?Let's face it. at higher levels a caster can have +20 rods. All the metamagic feats just gets useless.
...A clause that prohibits casting of a spell that would otherwise be out of the caster's ability, would go a long way to rectify things...
This at the very least is the minimum that needs to be done to stop meta magic rods from ruining games. Exactly how balance is it to let a player cast a maximized meteor swarm followed immediately in the same turn a quickened meteor swarm. This stupid little trick does an average of 304 damage with no save.
Without the rods the best a wizard can do as far as damage is a maximized chain lightning followed by a quickened cone of cold. Average damage 172.5 and the target gets to make normal saves. The rods alone allow a wizard to almost double his high end damage. Is that really balanced?
Maybe in addition the use of metamagic rods can be restricted to those who have the feat in question.
I like the idea of not being able to raise spells over 9th level.
This might work as a compromise, since the biggest abuses are for the high level spells. Burning out two 4th or 5th level spells per round isn't too horrendous.
With a 9th level ceiling, you could extend 8th level (yay Earthquake), Empower 7th (Delayed Blast Fireball), Maximize 6th (Chain Lightning), and Quicken 5th (Baleful Polymorph, Cone of Cold, or Wall of Force).
Another decent way (perhaps combined), is require a move action to use the Rod. No using two rods at once.
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Another decent way (perhaps combined), is require a move action to use the Rod. No using two rods at once.
It might be better to make it a swift action. That way you can still use a quicken rod, and since you can't trade a move action for a second swift action, you still can't use multiple rods at once.
The DM can also enforce the rule to spend a move action to actually draw the rod from your belt, or pouch, or whatever.
What if metamagic rods gave the option of preparing metamagic spells (or cast spontaneously, in case of a sorcerer) normally 3/day, instead of giving free metamagic 3/day ? For example, a wizard possessing a rod of extend (lesser) could prepare rope trick in a 3rd level slot, even though he doesn't have extend spell feat.
This wouldn't completely negate the need for these rods, but it would mean a caster couldn't completely own an encounter with his free metamagic.
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What if metamagic rods gave the option of preparing metamagic spells (or cast spontaneously, in case of a sorcerer) normally 3/day, instead of giving free metamagic 3/day ? For example, a wizard possessing a rod of extend (lesser) could prepare rope trick in a 3rd level slot, even though he doesn't have extend spell feat.
This wouldn't completely negate the need for these rods, but it would mean a caster couldn't completely own an encounter with his free metamagic.
I like this solution, the problem is that the rods aren't the only problematic source of free metamagic. I want to see a fix that can be applied to each free metamagic source, not fix each individually.
...A clause that prohibits casting of a spell that would otherwise be out of the caster's ability, would go a long way to rectify things...This at the very least is the minimum that needs to be done to stop meta magic rods from ruining games. Exactly how balance is it to let a player cast a maximized meteor swarm followed immediately in the same turn a quickened meteor swarm. This stupid little trick does an average of 304 damage with no save.
QFT. But hell, why throw around Meteor Swarms whenever you could be tossing around super high-DC SoD spells? Two dead PCs coming right up!
Without the rods the best a wizard can do as far as damage is a maximized chain lightning followed by a quickened cone of cold. Average damage 172.5 and the target gets to make normal saves. The rods alone allow a wizard to almost double his high end damage. Is that really balanced?
Not at all, which is why they have to go. I've heard some suggestions in this thread about perhaps limiting Metamagic Rods to only affect low level spells, but their impact is still too powerful at lower levels of gameplay.
Toss 'em out.
So metamagic rods are way overpowered because they make direct damage spells, the least useful spells in a wizard's repertoire, a little better? I don't follow this logic at all. First, with 9th level spells, a caster has far better things to do than waste time and spell slots with meteor swarm. Second, maximize and quicken rods are seriously expensive, even for a 20th level character: 121,500 and 170,000 gp, respectively. There's a small chance a character not starting out at level 17+ is going to be able to afford one. On the same note, a wizard casting 4th level spells is level 7 or 8. He's very likely not going to be able to afford a rod that will allow him to apply metamagic feats to his 4th level spells at this point. Third, what about resistances? Immunities? Spell resistance? Deflection/dodge bonuses to AC for touch attacks? The all-mighty reflex save-for-half? And don't forget that metamagic rods don't increase the spell level, so save DCs don't increase. Melee characters are better at damage. Leave it to them.
So metamagic rods are way overpowered because they make direct damage spells, the least useful spells in a wizard's repertoire, a little better? I don't follow this logic at all. First, with 9th level spells, a caster has far better things to do than waste time and spell slots with meteor swarm. Second, maximize and quicken rods are seriously expensive, even for a 20th level character: 121,500 and 170,000 gp, respectively. There's a small chance a character not starting out at level 17+ is going to be able to afford one. On the same note, a wizard casting 4th level spells is level 7 or 8. He's very likely not going to be able to afford a rod that will allow him to apply metamagic feats to his 4th level spells at this point. Third, what about resistances? Immunities? Spell resistance? Deflection/dodge bonuses to AC for touch attacks? The all-mighty reflex save-for-half? And don't forget that metamagic rods don't increase the spell level, so save DCs don't increase. Melee characters are better at damage. Leave it to them.
Highlighting the effect of maximizing and quickening meteor swarm is simply illustrative of the actual, underlying issue. A Quickened gate is far more egregiously broken, particularly the single battle option provided by gate. Spending 170,000 gp for the ability to Quicken gate, or weird, or wail of the banshee, is much more of concern here, as all of these spells are substantially worth the money to be able to cast twice.
Frankly, I am okay with metamagic rods allowing metamagic only up to what is actually within the PCs ability to cast. This does make a rod of quicken useless to any character who cannot cast at least 4th level spells (the slot required for a quickened cantrip), while still allowing the ability to save your higher level slots. I believe that this is what was intended with the metamagic rods and "free" use metamagic abilities, like Metamagic Mastery, although it is not currently the state of Rules as Written.
Highlighting the effect of maximizing and quickening meteor swarm is simply illustrative of the actual, underlying issue. A Quickened gate is far more egregiously broken, particularly the single battle option provided by gate. Spending 170,000 gp for the ability to Quicken gate, or weird, or wail of the banshee, is much more of concern here, as all of these spells are substantially worth the money to be able to cast twice.
Frankly, I am okay with metamagic rods allowing metamagic only up to what is actually within the PCs ability to cast. This does make a rod of quicken useless to any character who cannot cast at least 4th level spells (the slot required for a quickened cantrip), while still allowing the ability to save your higher level slots. I believe that this is what was intended with the metamagic rods and "free" use metamagic abilities, like Metamagic Mastery, although it is not currently the state...
How exactly is a quickened gate, which is essentially a really good summoning spell, "broken"? Do you have any examples?
Also... weird? Really? The spell that's an area version of a terrible 4th level spell (phantasmal killer)? Wail of the banshee is a little better, except it targets fortitude, is a death effect, and is sonic which means you can't affect lots of monsters with it/it can be overcome with a simple 2nd level silence spell, and it offers SR. Also, if you're quickening it, what do you follow/precede WotB with? Assay SR? Something to lower Fort. saves? That's a nice combo, but hardly broken.
You're completely ignoring the fact that most "grown" characters won't be able to afford greater metamagic rods unless they hoard their wealth at lower levels, which is generally not a good idea, since first and foremost you need to actually *survive* to 17th level. And, if you're using 3.5's Magic Item Compendium, you can buy of belts of battle to replicate (and more) a rod of quicken for much, much cheaper.
How exactly is a quickened gate, which is essentially a really good summoning spell, "broken"? Do you have any examples?
I am a lone 17th level wizard. I see a wyrm white dragon closing on my position. I cast a gate spell and summon a solar. I now use my rod of metamagic quicken to cast a quickened Mage's Magnificent Manison. I use my remaining move action to step into the portal. I command the unseen servants staffing the mansion to give me a back rub. I fall asleep. I wake up 1D3 hours later. I cast invisibility. I fly out of the mansion using my already cast overland flight spell. I look for the body of the dragon. When I find the body I cast a limited wish to replicate a speak with dead spell. I ascertain where the dragons horde is and with any remaining questions I find out of any traps he's prepared. I next use a fabricate spell to skin and prepare the dragon's hide. I summon a large earth elemental and command it to put the skin in my portable hole. I go to the white dragons horde. I take it, recouping the loss of 5000 gp for the gate and 1500 gp for the limited wish.
I go home and reflect on how good my life is.
You're completely ignoring the fact that most "grown" characters won't be able to afford greater metamagic rods[..]
This is my main question. A Metamagic Rod of Greater Quicken is extremely powerful. But shouldn't something that costs 170,000 gp be extremely powerful? Is the price really that "cheap", relatively speaking?
I don't know the answer; I play in low level games almost exclusively, so I've never seen a metamagic rod in play except for Lesser Extend (which is quite popular).
I like the idea of not being able to raise spells over 9th level.This might work as a compromise, since the biggest abuses are for the high level spells. Burning out two 4th or 5th level spells per round isn't too horrendous.
I think burning two 4th or 5th level spells is pretty powerful when you are 7th-9th level.
I think burning two 4th or 5th level spells is pretty powerful when you are 7th-9th level.I like the idea of not being able to raise spells over 9th level.This might work as a compromise, since the biggest abuses are for the high level spells. Burning out two 4th or 5th level spells per round isn't too horrendous.
To do that with a metamagic rod would require a single magic item costing 75,500 gp.
I am a lone 17th level wizard. I see a wyrm white dragon closing on my position. I cast a gate spell and summon a solar. I now use my rod of metamagic quicken to cast a quickened Mage's Magnificent Manison. I use my remaining move action to step into the portal. I command the unseen servants staffing the mansion to give me a back rub. I fall asleep. I wake up 1D3 hours later. I cast invisibility. I fly out of the mansion using my already cast overland flight spell. I look for the body of the dragon. When I find the body I cast a limited wish to replicate a speak with dead spell. I ascertain where the dragons horde is and with any remaining questions I find out of any traps he's prepared. I next use a fabricate spell to skin and prepare the dragon's hide. I summon a large earth elemental and command it to put the skin in my portable hole. I go to the white dragons horde. I take it, recouping the loss of 5000 gp for the gate and 1500 gp for the limited wish.
I go home and reflect on how good my life is.
And this differs from using Time Stop, then a bunch of summon monster IX spells or delayed blast fireballs (vulnerability to fire) in what way? Or just, you know, any other high level spells? Or even the lowly dragon-killing combo of spectral hand + shivering touch? SR 25 means you'd need to roll an 8 or higher (4 with greater spell penetration), which is easily attainable.
This is my main question. A Metamagic Rod of Greater Quicken is extremely powerful. But shouldn't something that costs 170,000 gp be extremely powerful? Is the price really that "cheap", relatively speaking?
I don't know the answer; I play in low level games almost exclusively, so I've never seen a metamagic rod in play except for Lesser Extend (which is quite popular).
I feel the price is about right for the power level. Based on my experience, unless you start out at level 17+, you won't have the money to buy something this expensive until you're close to level 20/21.
I am a lone 17th level wizard. I see a wyrm white dragon closing on my position. I cast a gate spell and summon a solar. I now use my rod of metamagic quicken to cast a quickened Mage's Magnificent Manison. I use my remaining move action to step into the portal. I command the unseen servants staffing the mansion to give me a back rub. I fall asleep. I wake up 1D3 hours later. I cast invisibility. I fly out of the mansion using my already cast overland flight spell. I look for the body of the dragon. When I find the body I cast a limited wish to replicate a speak with dead spell. I ascertain where the dragons horde is and with any remaining questions I find out of any traps he's prepared. I next use a fabricate spell to skin and prepare the dragon's hide. I summon a large earth elemental and command it to put the skin in my portable hole. I go to the white dragons horde. I take it, recouping the loss of 5000 gp for the gate and 1500 gp for the limited wish.
I go home and reflect on how good my life is.
And this differs from using Time Stop, then a bunch of summon monster IX spells or delayed blast fireballs (vulnerability to fire) in what way? Or just, you know, any other high level spells? Or even the lowly dragon-killing combo of spectral hand + shivering touch? SR 25 means you'd need to roll an 8 or higher (4 with greater spell penetration), which is easily attainable.
I feel the price is about right for the power level. Based on my experience, unless you start out at level 17+, you won't have the money to buy something this expensive until you're close to level 20/21.This is my main question. A Metamagic Rod of Greater Quicken is extremely powerful. But shouldn't something that costs 170,000 gp be extremely powerful? Is the price really that "cheap", relatively speaking?
I don't know the answer; I play in low level games almost exclusively, so I've never seen a metamagic rod in play except for Lesser Extend (which is quite popular).
Well first off all you asked was how is gate broken. I think I may have shown that. Second, I never said Summon Monster and such were balanced. Perhaps you should look at this thread to see other spells that appear to be a bit overpowered.
How exactly is a quickened gate, which is essentially a really good summoning spell, "broken"? Do you have any examples?
A "really good" summoning spell? That's got to be the understatement of the year! Saying that summoning a Solar to do your bidding is "really good" is like saying that Bill Gates is "kind of rich" or that Stephen Hawking is "somewhat clever". :lol:
Gate is one of the most broken spells in the game right now, and being able to cast a Quickened Gate spells and a regular Gate spell at the same time is just crazy overpowered.
You're completely ignoring the fact that most "grown" characters won't be able to afford greater metamagic rods unless they hoard their wealth at lower levels, which is generally not a good idea, since first and foremost you need to actually *survive* to 17th level. And, if you're using 3.5's Magic Item Compendium, you can buy of belts of battle to replicate (and more) a rod of quicken for much, much cheaper.
1) Even if you're using the old "Character By Wealth" tables from 3.X, you're still likely to be raking in enough cash by the time you get to 16th or 17th level to either craft or purchase a Greater Metamagic Rod.
2) There are a TON of gamers that keep their characters in absolute destitution throughout most of their career in order to pay for or save up for magical items. They keep just enough gold in their pockets to sleep at the inn and feed themselves, and the rest of their cash goes to acquiring more raw magical power.
3) There are a number of mechanical tricks involving spells that you can use in 3.X to acquire large sums of cash to pay for the crafting or purchase of magical items. Even if these are cut out, the sheer utility of the powers that a spellcaster has means that anyone with high level spells and a knack for business is going to make a killing somehow.
TL;DR: You're probably going to end up with the cash necessary to create or buy one very powerful Greater Metamagic Rod from 15th level onwards.
And this differs from using Time Stop, then a bunch of summon monster IX spells or delayed blast fireballs (vulnerability to fire) in what way? Or just, you know, any other high level spells? Or even the lowly dragon-killing combo of spectral hand + shivering touch? SR 25 means you'd need to roll an 8 or higher (4 with greater spell penetration), which is easily attainable.
Because you're summoning a Solar? That's better then any other magical effect in the game right now. It's like you're a character from Neon Genesis Evangelion (minus the emo, of course). Just cast Gate, summon your PokeSolar, and watch from the sidelines. :lol:
But even if we DIDN'T want to summon a Solar, I'm willing to wager that when you come out of that Time Stop, it would be a whole lot better to come out with a Quickened Meteor Swarm and an Empowered Chain Lightning then if you ran around throwing Delayed Blast Fireballs at it as it tried to either kill you with its breath weapon or ate your face.
Either way, there's a few things in this equation that are off-kilter. Gate needs to have the summoning component removed, and the Metamagic Rods need to disappear. Once those two things are done, we can step away from crazy la-la land and get back to scenarios where a Wizard might actually have to do some work to kill his enemies.
I feel the price is about right for the power level. Based on my experience, unless you start out at level 17+, you won't have the money to buy something this expensive until you're close to level 20/21.
There is no price that you can set - no price that is high enough - to offset the effect of a magical item that breaks all semblance of game balance once it is acquired. Metamagic Rods do just that - at all levels of play - and need to be thrown on the trash heap.
I feel the price is about right for the power level. Based on my experience, unless you start out at level 17+, you won't have the money to buy something this expensive until you're close to...
No, you showed that 9th level spells are very powerful.
A "really good" summoning spell? That's got to be the understatement of the year! Saying that summoning a Solar to do your bidding is "really good" is like saying that Bill Gates is "kind of rich" or that Stephen Hawking is "somewhat clever". :lol:
Gate is one of the most broken spells in the game right now, and being able to cast a Quickened Gate spells and a regular Gate spell at the same time is just crazy overpowered.
And other 9th level spells aren't? Heck, other 8th or 7th level spells aren't? Casting = broken compared to melee characters. It's how 3.5 was structured, and unless you radically change the game and break backwards compatibility, Pathfinder will be the same.
Also, lots of people seem to be neglecting the 5000 gp per cast cost of gate. 10,000 gp per casting for quickened + regular gate is pretty expensive -- it's not something you're going to do over and over again.
1) Even if you're using the old "Character By Wealth" tables from 3.X, you're still likely to be raking in enough cash by the time you get to 16th or 17th level to either craft or purchase a Greater Metamagic Rod.
2) There are a TON of gamers that keep their characters in absolute destitution throughout most of their career in order to pay for or save up for magical items. They keep just enough gold in their pockets to sleep at the inn and feed themselves, and the rest of their cash goes to acquiring more raw magical power.
3) There are a number of mechanical tricks involving spells that you can use in 3.X to acquire large sums of cash to pay for the crafting or purchase of magical items. Even if these are cut out, the sheer utility of the powers that a spellcaster has means that anyone with high level spells and a knack for business is going to make a killing somehow.
TL;DR: You're probably going to end up with the cash necessary to create or buy one very powerful Greater Metamagic...
1) If you ONLY buy or craft the wand, and nothing else, maybe. But that's not likely in most games. Also don't forget the 170 day crafting time for such a wand. How many games have that long of a duration between adventures?
2) You're not surviving until 17th level if you're not buying items as you go. You're also not going to be able to save 170,000 gp for a long, long time.
3) That would make those mechanical tricks broken, not the metamagic rod. Also, again, you're assuming this wizard has tons of time to run his business. That's not going to be the case in lots of games. You can't claim something is broken just because of x, y, and z specific non-standard circumstances that work totally in your favor.
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I don't think free metamagic is broken at all, I think free metamagic is fine.
However my play experience is that free metamagic used to cast metamegic versions of spells that are higher in level than the spellcaster is able to cast are. It is off balanced because every monster and every ability in the game is balanced of the assumption that a wizard can only cast what he has and the balance of adding levels to spells is what keeps metamagic from making wizards overpowered.
I don't want them gone, nor do I think they need to be gone. They just need to be limited to only metamagicing things that you would normally be able to cast. I'm saying this now because I hope it makes it into the rules to fix all free metamagic abilities, not just rods. If it doesn't make it in, I'll just houserule it though.
And other 9th level spells aren't? Heck, other 8th or 7th level spells aren't? Casting = broken compared to melee characters. It's how 3.5 was structured, and unless you radically change the game and break backwards compatibility, Pathfinder will be the same.Sueki Suezo wrote:
A "really good" summoning spell? That's got to be the understatement of the year! Saying that summoning a Solar to do your bidding is "really good" is like saying that Bill Gates is "kind of rich" or that Stephen Hawking is "somewhat clever". :lol:
Gate is one of the most broken spells in the game right now, and being able to cast a Quickened Gate spells and a regular Gate spell at the same time is just crazy overpowered.
Ahem. Solar Summoning? Not even remotely balanced. Not even against other 9th level spells. Not against the 9th level summoning spells. It's got to go.
And about 3.5 being structured in such a way where spellcasters are overpowered compared to other characters? That's got to go also. Otherwise, I suspect that most players will eventually be sitting around playing D&D 4.5 instead of Pathfinder. No one like to play "second class citizen" in any game.
Also, lots of people seem to be neglecting the 5000 gp per cast cost of gate. 10,000 gp per casting for quickened + regular gate is pretty expensive -- it's not something you're going to do over and over again.
Check the Web Enhancement. There is NO GP or XP cost for casting this spell as it currently stands in Pathfinder right now. So they managed to take a broken spell and make it even more broken! :lol:
Sueki Suezo wrote:
1) Even if you're using the old "Character By Wealth" tables from 3.X, you're still likely to be raking in enough cash by the time you get to 16th or 17th level to either craft or purchase a Greater Metamagic Rod.
2) There are a TON of gamers that keep their characters in absolute destitution throughout most of their career in order to pay for or save up for magical items. They keep just enough gold in their pockets to sleep at the inn and feed themselves, and the rest of their cash goes to acquiring more raw magical power.
3) There are a number of mechanical tricks involving spells that you can use in 3.X to acquire large sums of cash to pay for the crafting or purchase of magical items. Even if these are cut out, the sheer utility of the powers that a spellcaster has means that anyone with high level spells and a knack for business is going to make a killing somehow.
TL;DR: You're probably going to end up with the cash necessary to create or buy one very powerful Greater Metamagic...
1) If you ONLY buy or craft the wand, and nothing else, maybe. But that's not likely in most games. Also don't forget the 170 day crafting time for such a wand. How many games have that long of a duration between adventures?
2) You're not surviving until 17th level if you're not buying items as you go. You're also not going to be able to save 170,000 gp for a long, long time.
3) That would make those mechanical tricks broken, not the metamagic rod. Also, again, you're assuming this wizard has tons of time to run his business. That's not going to be the case in lots of games. You can't claim something is broken just because of x, y, and z specific non-standard circumstances that work totally in your favor.
You're making the assumption that time is a critical element in all high-level games. Guess what? It isn't. It's not unreasonable to assume that a character could take the time to raise the funds and craft the item. Even if you have a campaign where the party is rushing to save the world from some horrific, world ending threat, what are the odds that once you resolve it, you won't have some time to take a vacation and make your item of ultimate power before you move on to crush the next great menace?