I agree, the bard has some fundamental flaws that make it a sidekick class, no player ever really wants to the only help other people then really contribute in combat (for instance) yes the bardic music does help but all in all it leaves players with a type casted role where all they do is the same thing.
first off: Bardic knowledge as it stands in Beta test, blows. in my games I kept it the way it was, but in addition allow them to use the knowledge skills untrained. albeit, failure provides no information and fail by 5 or more results misleading and/or wrong information.
allowing a bard to cast spells while using bardic music was a thought as well (but I would suggest imposing a spellcraft check. Or attacking while using bardic music requiring a perform check. (mind you it will be required that they use a proper performance, ie: dance or singing/oratory/chanting/etc.)
I'm not totally sure as to what more needs to be done, but I'd hate to hear another player say..."why would I want to play a bard, they suck."
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Here's a few suggestions:
- Free knowledge skill pt every level (already achieved by BETA)
- Free perform skill pt every level (see my "8 skill pts / level" thread for more details)
- Countersong as an immediate action to "react" to incoming sonic / language-dependent / musical attacks
- All spells on the bard's spell list should be "known" spells (either that, or double or triple the bard's allotment of "known" spells...)
- Bard spells can be cast either as standard action or as swift action while maintaining/initiating a bardic music effect
- Add a bardic music effect that heals people (a la mass cure light wounds at least)
- Add more bardic music effects (as per NWN2 game... which has GREAT bardic music effects...)
- Change the wording of the "fascinate" ability to make it fully useable in combat (drop the wording that makes it unuseable when combat occurs nearby and stuff)
- Add a bardic music effect that makes people fall asleep regardless of hit dice (which would make the lullaby spell more effective)
- Add a bardic music effect that acts like the "enthrall" spell (mass charm effect or mass calm emotion effect... i.e. crowd control stuff)
Add all the above, and I *think* we'd have something at a decent power level, without changing the "feel" or the "role" of the bard in terms of party dynamics.
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allowing a bard to cast spells while using bardic music was a thought as well (but I would suggest imposing a spellcraft check. Or attacking while using bardic music requiring a perform check. (mind you it will be required that they use a proper performance, ie: dance or singing/oratory/chanting/etc.)
I found a feat that might interest you. It was from the Pathfinder Campaign setting for the RPG under General Feats. It actually has the opposite effect of what you were talking about. Instead of casting a spell while using bardic music you instead perform a bardic performance while casting a spell.
- Harmonic Spell
You can weave bardic music effects into your spellcasting.
Prerequisite: Perform (any) 8 ranks, bardic music ability.
Benefit: When you cast a harmonic spell, you can activate
one of your bardic music abilities as a free action. The bardic
music is incorporated into the spell’s casting time, and the
effect of the bardic music lasts for as long as the spell’s casting
time continues and for 5 rounds thereafter. Activating a bardic
music ability with Harmonic Spell consumes an additional
bardic music use per day, but does not increase the effective
level of the spell being cast.
I am personally a bard player, it is definately one of my favorite classes and the one I enjoy roleplaying the most. I haven't gotten this feat yet and it will be some time until I do.
Harmonic Spell
You can weave bardic music effects into your spellcasting.
Prerequisite: Perform (any) 8 ranks, bardic music ability.
Benefit: When you cast a harmonic spell, you can activate
one of your bardic music abilities as a free action. The bardic
music is incorporated into the spell’s casting time, and the
effect of the bardic music lasts for as long as the spell’s casting
time continues and for 5 rounds thereafter. Activating a bardic
music ability with Harmonic Spell consumes an additional
bardic music use per day, but does not increase the effective
level of the spell being cast.
This seems like a very neat feat :)
I have a question though.Does the target of the bardic music have to be the same, as the spell? This would make sense to some point, but it properly isn't required since it would make a lot of bardic performances useless (such as standard inspiration if you don't have team-buff spells).
I'm not sure. But I would argue that no the Bardic Performance wouldn't have to be the same target as the spell. The reason I say that is because most Performances are in fact an area effect, they just target either allies or enemies in most cases.
Yes, that it what I considered too. Though it is gonna be interesting when a cure light wounds is thrown with a deadly performance...
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Agreed. Requiring the maxing of a skill for a certain class ability reeks, period. I understand if the designers don't want to completely revamp the bard, so I think a compromise would be more skill points per level. Many, many more, skill points... per level (that, or the perform freebies I proposed earlier)
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I'm currently playtesting the PRPG bard... and my early conclusions are that they could INDEED use more skills (even though I'm using a human bard with 16 INT; i.e. 11 skill pts per level, including the favored class and human bonus skill pts; I'm still falling short, and I absolutely CAN'T afford more than one perform skill...)
In my playtest, I use a level 5 bard, with 1 rank in every knowledge skill (except the favored freebie, which is maxed, at no cost). I try to max out acrobatics, bluff, diplomacy, spellcraft, perception, sense motive, perform, and use magic device, as well as one rank in many other skills to gain the +3. I have two ranks in linguistics, for the added languages. I find myself a little too spread out, partly due to the fact that the PRPG bard now requires at least one rank in every knowledge skill to make the new bardic knowledge effective (before, in 3.5, I used to put NO ranks at all, and just make bardic knowledge checks for everything...)
Results: bards indeed need 8 skill points per level. I no longer have any doubts about this, whatsoever. I use a 16 Int human bard and I'm still short... I'd hate to play a low int gnome bard!!! Bards are nearly useless in combat, have no bonus feats, and only shine in large groups. Therefore, they need more skills to be a bit more interesting.
Recommendations: 8 skill pts / level, PLUS freebie maxed Perform (with all other Perform types granted for free, at level 3, 5, ..., 15, for a total of 8 perform skills, all using the same bonus; i.e. ranks = bard level, + CHA, + MW instrument, if applicable).
Question: there are no longer any synergies in PRPG, correct? if so, then the bard is even less effective now, as he previously greatly benefitted from the knowledge_nobility/bluff/sensemotive/diplomacy combo... and spellcraft/usemagicdevice(scroll) combo...
Thoughts?
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I'm also playtesting a PFRPG Bard, loving it, but only have 11 Int, leaving me seriously lacking for skill points. So far I have been only able to keep up with one perform skill, I don't have a chance at maintaning two performs.
After reading through the many different offered solutions ranging from making perform a class feature to just crazy stuff, I think a simple increase of 8 skill points per level would fix all the bard skill problems while leaving all their current options available. It makes sense to me for a bard to have as many skill points to a Rogue, they're practically companions in flexibility.
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I agree with what Purple Dragon's suggestions on improving the bard. I had a bard in WoTC's Living Greyhawk campaign. I kept him a full bard, no multiclassing. Straight out of 3.5e rules he was becoming ineffective. "Sing us a little song, bard" is all I was good for. Having perform as a bard only skill is a great idea. I played in a game once when a fighter cross-classed perform and was rolling better than the bard, albeit bad dice rolling vs. good dice rolling was a considerable and comedic factor.
I think the bard has incredible potential to move up the ranks of playability. There wasn't one suggestion you mentioned I didn't agree with. Hopefully some of these suggestions make it into the PRPG.
Rene
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Rene, Kiri: thanks for the bardic support!
When one takes a very close look at the bard, it indeed becomes very obvious that they should be the "Skill Kings" and "Skill Queens" of D&D. Social interactions require many skills, and if the class ever sees an 8 or 10 pts/level build, it will be possible once more to have bards with "flavor" (i.e. not just ranks in hard skills, but also ranks in Craft and Profession, etc.)
If I was left alone in a dark basement and given a one month assignment to "spice up the bard class," I would also consider building a fame/artistic/scholar_merit system that takes into account ranks in "soft" skills like craft and profession, linguistics, knowledge, etc. But this is another story, for another time... :)
best way to fix the bard is a dagger in his back.
Just drop it along the lines with the Arch mage and the heriophant. Just like those PrCs there are "better options"
In old 1e DnD, the monk and Bard were optional classes not all DMs allowed.
You couldnt even BE a 1st level bard.
There-in lies the problem with both classes, fro day one neither was ever designed to be a core class, just "extras"
IMO they should be redone from the ground up.
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Rogues have extremely good melee abilities (Sneak Attack, Evasion, etc.) and 8 skill points to boot. They have extremely good party support abilities as well (trapfinding, disable device, search).
Bards have moderate to crappy party boosting abilities, moderate spells, and 6 skill points. In a small party they are useless, but rogues still do well in a small group. They are more than overdue for a skill points boost, in nothing else... in fact, if "party booster" is the role they should excel at, then they should get more USEFUL party assist abilities.
I agree that PRPG won't redo the bard from the ground up, but I agree that a serious rethink should be done. I personally don't want to see this class go as I like it (read: with my current houserules... LOL!), and I think a skill points increase would be a good place to start.
I noticed they now have a Mass Cure Light Wounds bardic music ability, but lo and behold: it requires a full minute of performance before it activates. WHY??? why can't they feel confident in making the bard actually useful and make this a darn standard action!??!
Rogues have extremely good melee abilities (Sneak Attack, Evasion, etc.) and 8 skill points to boot. They have extremely good party support abilities as well (trapfinding, disable device, search).
Bards have moderate to crappy party boosting abilities, moderate spells, and 6 skill points. In a small party they are useless, but rogues still do well in a small group. They are more than overdue for a skill points boost, in nothing else... in fact, if "party booster" is the role they should excel at, then they should get more USEFUL party assist abilities.
I agree that PRPG won't redo the bard from the ground up, but I agree that a serious rethink should be done. I personally don't want to see this class go as I like it (read: with my current houserules... LOL!), and I think a skill points increase would be a good place to start.
I noticed they now have a Mass Cure Light Wounds bardic music ability, but lo and behold: it requires a full minute of performance before it activates. WHY??? why can't they feel confident in making the bard actually useful and make this a darn standard action!??!
I have having a conversation today that "what if you had to play a 5th level solo adventure, what class would you pick?"
My answer?Bard.
Why?
I call heal, I can fight, I can wear armor, and I have a bunch of skills. If I get captured I might even be able to talk my way out of the problem.
The issue with the bard is hes great alone, and kinda overshadowed in a group.
If there is no one to fight better than him, hes a good fighter, same with spells casting, healing, skills etc.
How do you fix this? FOCUS, the bard needs more FOCUS than generatlity.
AND players need to stop PvP comparisons. look at how a character class can be a better party member and not a better player killer.
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I disagree. I don't want to see the bard focus towards melee, buffing, or spellcasting. I like the current iteration, except for the Perform skill sink and the fact that they are not the class with the most skill points. I hope they don't reinvent the wheel in the final version, but I hope they give him a few little "nice" add-ons (bardic music as swift action, mass cure light included; additional peform categories for every two ranks of perform; all spells on spell list "known", a-la-warmage or healer class; etc. -- see my other posts for additional suggestions).
In short, I hope they build upon the current PRPG version, instead of replacing it by something else or scrapping it...
I disagree. I don't want to see the bard focus towards melee, buffing, or spellcasting. I like the current iteration, except for the Perform skill sink and the fact that they are not the class with the most skill points. I hope they don't reinvent the wheel in the final version, but I hope they give him a few little "nice" add-ons (bardic music as swift action, mass cure light included; additional peform categories for every two ranks of perform; all spells on spell list "known", a-la-warmage or healer class; etc. -- see my other posts for additional suggestions).
In short, I hope they build upon the current PRPG version, instead of replacing it by something else or scrapping it...
I meant FOCUS on the bard charm/performance issue.
I add bonus spells known at each spell level (except 0) equal to the character's intelligence mod (also do that with sorcerers), I give wizards an intelligence bonus to spells in spellbook at every level (not just 1st) to compensate. I gave them back everything they lost from 3.0 (longbows, medium armor, and lost spells) and give them the ability to cast spells in medium armor at 4th and ability to ignore spell failure with heavy shields at 8th (much like the duskblade). I then give them bonus feats at the same schedule as the psychic warrior but they can only use them on the class feature feats for generic classes from Unearthed Arcana. Extra songs are nice and I would either keep the Paizo songs or give them the Eberron songs of creation. Then I modified their spell progression like a post I've seen on here somewhere (2nd, 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, and 14th) and then I added 7th level spells at 16th (Control Weather, Creeping Doom, Mass Cure Serious Wounds, Limited Wish, Maze, Plane Shift, Repulsion, Greater Shadow Evocation, Summon Monster VII, Vision). Then I folded in the Hexblade and Duskblade spell lists into the Bard.
Since I played 2nd Edition, I don't understand this whole "bards with attack spells don't feel like bards" statement. And 1st Edition bards were no slackers in the attack spell department with the full druid list.
FOCUS on the bard charm/performance issue.And Purple, Bards have six skill points on paper, but Bardic Knowledge gives them +1 for every Knowledge skill, and an additional +1 for a chosen Knowledge skill that they want to be a main one, plus all of those are class skills, so an additional +3 each. That's +4-+5 per Knowledge, and there's...what...six of those? (can't recall)
They get a lot more skill points than you are accounting for because it's all bonus due to Bardic Knowledge and Class Skill bonuses.
I believe you are mistaken on this. Here is what Bardic Knowledge provides:
At 1st level, a bard selects one Knowledge skill. He gains 1 bonus skill point to place in that Knowledge skill and an additional skill point every time he gains a level. In addition, a bard adds 1/2 his level (minimum 1) to all Knowledge skill checks and may make such checks untrained.
This means that a bard gets one extra skill point per level to place into a single knowledge. He gets a scaling bonus to checks, but since we're talking actual skill points, there is only just the one bonus picked at 1rst level.
As written, a bard gets a base 6 skill points per level, plus the bardic knowledge knowledge bonus. He must spend two skill points each level into two separate categories of Performance to fully utilize his Bardic Music abilities. There are also ten different Knowledge categories. While the free Knowledge ranks and bonuses over a career of 1-20th level are nice, let us remember these now take the place of the old Bardic Knowledge that allowed a bard to know useful information about anything, and as such their role must be weighed in the context of how useful such checks will be. Even allowing for the fact that we have in essence 20 free ranks of a single Knowledge and a +10 bonus to Knowledge Checks, we still will have spent 40 skill points gaining ranks in two categories of Perform.
This is what is called a net loss; for skill points that is tantamount to a bottomless pit that eats away at 33% of your skill growth over your career. I heartily encourage the proposed revisions mentioned by J.J. in how Performance categories relate to Bardic Music to rid the "skill tax" effect.
Those "Skill points" for knowledges will not get you in a prestige class though, becuase they aren't skill points they are "bonuses". It's also extremely limiting to only get skill points for a knowledge. "Yes here you go you can have this, but only if it is spent this way".
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I see where Cliff is coming from. The knowledge skills bonuses ARE nice, don't get me wrong... but as I said earlier, I've been playtesting a human* bard with 16 Int** and favored class "bard"*** and I still need more skill points. To really min/max, you need at least one rank in every knowledge skill (to get the +3 class skill bonus... so a one-time purchase, if you will, which puts you behind one rank in every other skill!!), and I use only one type of perform (sorry, my DM doesn't care what kind of perform I do... I RP my perform check anyways, so I only roll from the ONE generic perform type I take... and yes, I only buy one type... so I think the final PRPG version should do away with Perform, or add it for "free" in a way similar to the Bardic Knowledge free knowledge point...)
Bottom line: more skill points (8 or 10 instead of 6) are still required!
6 skill pts / level (base amount)
*+1 skill pt/level
**+3 skill pt/level
***+1 skill pt/level
Total: 11 skill pts / level
Im going to agree with the Bard spell list issue.
The bard needs some of his dangerous-ness back,
1e and 2e bards were more half-elf or human fighter/magic-user/theif/druids than the dancing jester/fop they are now.
I have much hate for the Bard list, Ranger list, Paladin list (kudos on getting rid of the assassin list)
Too MANY lists!
Ditch the Bard list all together, IMO, give him more performance/charm/countercharm focus as class abilities.
I can see a bard expounding on the dazzling display feat as a "performance" with his skill at arms prowess and doing some serious intimidation, or like people have been saying pied-piper (which would require some druidish like cross over)
But either way, if the Bard was given either a performance pool (similar to rage/ki pool) OR Bard talents (similar to rogue talents mechanic) it would go along way to making the bard more solid.
He he diefinately shouldn't be able to cast spells that are better than his class abilities in the charm/diplomacy arena.
as a side note:
Id like to see the ranger drop spells altogther and even the paladin to be honest, too many dang spell lists running around out there.
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Playing in the Pathfinder society right now (and yeah, you've guessed.. I have 3rd level bard! :P ) and I find the sleep spell very useful. I like my detect magic as well, my dancing lights, and my cure light wounds... I would hate to lose these capabilities. When Path Society goes PRPG in August, then I'll have 0 level spell at will, which will rock! (lullaby before every encounter baby!)
Now, I wouldn't mind losing *some* spell capabilities, but not all of it... and the replacement abilities would need to be pretty kick ass to make me sway that way (like a bardic performance that puts people to sleep... ANY people; i.e. regardless of HD... a-la-fascinate; i.e. 1, 2 or 3 people at a time tops; see fascinate for creatures/level progression...)
Now THAT would make bards something to be feared!
for bards i wouldn't mind losing the spells
i think it would work better with more unique abilities
a bit like the barbarian works with the rage powers
for bards i wouldn't mind losing the spells
i think it would work better with more unique abilities
a bit like the barbarian works with the rage powers
Ill have to agree there. More unique abilities.
I dont see how detect magic and dancing lights are a boon to the bard:
Sounds like a 1st level sorceror to me.
And being able to sing ANYone to sleep is basically a death spell. Yea so maybe at 20th level?
If detect magic is so useful you can just get a wand with 50 charges.
The vast majority of bard spells are enchantment type and overshadow the bards own innate ability to enchant/charm and influence people.
Thats primarily the major thing that needs to change, there shouldnt be anything out there that does that better than the bard.
A 3rd edition's bard (expanded to Pathfinder and other d20 systems) is hard to compare to its AD&D 1ed and AD&D 2ed counterpart, because what used to be their strength (a wide variety of talents) is now available to every character by...
1) multiclassing, something that was not available before (or at least, not as easily available to human characters)
2) The integration of thief-skills into the general skill list.
In other words, it has to be something more than a multiclassed fighter/rogue/sorcerer, and we have to come with arguments that are beyond the translation from 1st ed or 2nd ed to 3.5 and pathfinder.
I also agree that this can only be done through more unique abilities, and a focus on the bard's performances, whatever the "performance" is.
As for having more skill points per level, a character should always be forced to make some compromises... The problem as it stands, is that the bard cannot compromise Perform, so it a catch 22 kind of deal.
'findel
I think allowing some sort of performance for other characters is good, (it can be very flavorful to have a sorcerer that plays the violin well, or some such, I've enjoyed such characters), and several prestige classes (like the shadowdancer) require a perform skill of some sort. So completely removing perform isn't likely to happen...
Rolling it into something else though would be nice (say Profession(musician)), and just letting the bardic performances be free standing would work for me (meaning they don't require any skill point expenditure).
cliff I'm not disagreeing, I'm just pointing out where issues are.
IF performance goes away altogether there must be some plan to take over the normal stuff of it.
IF it doesn't go away, it should cover more options (some of which you have mentioned) than just earning money.
However as I pointed out there are issues with some prestige classes, and if it isn't spelt out in the book how a fighter can gain skill in using a musical instrument, some DM's will say only bards can do so, which I would disagree with (bards get special abilities based on music/performances, but that doesn't mean they are the only ones capable of producing music/performances).
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The best fix is to keep all the Performance skills as is, and use my solution: free perform pt every level for the bard (like their free knowledge pt) AND a new perform type unlocked for every two ranks in Perform (i.e. another one unlocked at level 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 and 15; for a total of 8 different perform types)
This will drive home the fact that:
A) Bards are natural performers, and performing is an extension of their unique training, like bardic knowledge, so improving in it is automatic;
B) Other classes should still be able to perform or buy ranks in it, but they have to be one-trick ponies with limited skill in the musical arts; and
C) Bards have limited skill points (yes-they-do!) and need a break like this.
A suggestion to dump the 'Perform- Skill tax' of Bards (which was introduced in order to avoid level-dipping in Bard to learn all the Bardic Music abilities in 3.5, I think): why not leave only the required Bard levels, and eliminate the Perform ranks required (which are the same as the Bard levels) ? Are they not redundant (except for the fact that they drain skill points to the Bard) ?
Perhaps this was already suggested above (didn't have time to check all posts) or elsewhere, but I think it would be an easy way to fix some aspects of the Bard....
That's the conclusion everyone has been reaching Wraith... which tells me that it's probably a good one.
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It's an "ok" solution, but not the best IMO.
Why? somewhere, somehow, there are still people playing this game for the roleplay value (i.e. they don't feel obligated to min/max their character; hey, guilty as charge, as I min/max MY characters, but anyway...) and these people will want to play a fighter who can dance or a wizard who can sing, etc. For these folks, Perform is still the best option, IMO (I **know** profession **could** work, but the Performance skill rules exist, and work, so why ditch the wheel if it ain't broken?)
No. The only problem with the Perform skill is that bards exist. Don't get me wrong. I like bards and want them to stay. But they have to become the ultimate masters of all things musical, somehow. They are BARDS!!! Once they do that, then they will shine.
(my early freebie Perform suggestion / new perform learning combo would achieve that... i'd be interested to hear solutions that do not do away with Perform...)
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(...let go, Purple....let go....)
Nope. I like Perform, as a skill, the way it is. What I don't like is the ranks dependency of the bardic music class ability. Make Perform a freebie for the bard, and give 'em a class ability that lets them play multiple instruments (and master them all, over time).
Come on! bard masters should be able to rock with all instruments!
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PS: there used to be at least one feat from some of the Complete Books that let bards play multiple stuff (versatile performer, I think... not sure); however the bards are so low on feats that my (nice) DM had agreed to make that feat into a 2 skill point Skill Trick. Worked beautifully.
PS2: yeah.. just remembered Skill Tricks... thought they were awesome... any plans for a similar (i.e. weak feat) feature in PRPG?
In other words, it has to be something more than a multiclassed fighter/rogue/sorcerer
You mean a Beguiler? :D
I also agree that this can only be done through more unique abilities, and a focus on the bard's performances, whatever the "performance" is.As for having more skill points per level, a character should always be forced to make some compromises... The problem as it stands, is that the bard cannot compromise Perform, so it a catch 22 kind of deal.
Well the Dirge of Doom is pretty cool IMO, and that's the kind of things we need to see more of. Dirge of Doom needs to scale though like Inspire Courage. Maybe penalty increases to -3 at level 13 and to -4 at level 18. Feats like the Ironskin Chant from the Complete Adventurer needs to be built in to the new Bard, and also boosted so it lasts longer than a round