On page 153 of the Beta rules, it states you can ready an action as a standard action. You can ready a standard action, move action, a swift action, or a free action.
Now can you do this?
Scenario:
A spell caster and warrior are in 50' away from each other. The warrior has initiative and moves 30' toward the spell caster as a move action and readies an action (as a standard action) to move toward the spell caster if he begins to cast a spell. The spell caster remains where he is and begins to cast a spell. The warrior's readied action is triggered: he moves adjacent to the spell caster. The spell caster now provokes an AoO from the warrior.
Rules as written: yes.
However, the rules are unclear whether it is obvious that a character or creature has readied an action. If the caster is aware that the warrior has a readied action to move up to him, he has options; cast defensively, 5' step back, etc.
If the caster is unaware of the readied action, he has no options but to cast the spell as declared and suffer the AoO.
It is also possible to be aware that an opponent has a readied action, but not know what that action is.
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yeah, I agree that it works by RAW. But I would never let a player pull that. Or at the very least I would describe "I ready an action to move up next to him if he starts casting" as "you fix your gaze intently on the spellcaster and crouch, ready to leap towards him at the slightest provocation". He sure as hell would know to cast defensively.
This is just yet another example of where non-simultaneous combat breaks down.
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The warrior's readied action is triggered: he moves adjacent to the spell caster. The spell caster now provokes an AoO from the warrior.
But the wizard wasn't threatened when he cast the spell. He began to cast the spell and the warrior moved up 20' on him. It strikes me that warrior basically missed out on the AoO provoking event while he moved. But that's the debate, then, isn't it? Because technically the wizard is still casting the spell when the warrior gets there so still provokes the AoO. Hmmm.
Mosaic, if you're not sure how Ready Action works:
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.
If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character."
Likewise, if someone is standing up from Prone, triggering an AoO, the AoO occurs while they are still "Prone"
(thus you can't Trip them as the AoO since they're still down).THe question for me, as to the original post, is What the Ready action really IS:
Does the Ready Action INCLUDE a Standard Attack/Move/Swift/Free Action, or do you 'pay' the Standard Action for the pleasure of using your REGULAR ALLOTMENT of remaining Actions? If it INCLUDES it, then in that scenario you could also get a standard attack. If not, the scenario should still work as described... I don't see such a problem with that, thought it's fair to say that the opponent should have some chance to notice you are Readying against them (though not necessarily what action): Specifying how Bluff/Sense Motive applies here would be good.
I think the fact this is unclear signifies there needs to be some better examples of what you can really do with Ready Action, as well as clarifying whether Ready Action "includes" the Readied Action or not.
On page 153 of the Beta rules, it states you can ready an action as a standard action. You can ready a standard action, move action, a swift action, or a free action.
Now can you do this?
Scenario:
A spell caster and warrior are in 50' away from each other. The warrior has initiative and moves 30' toward the spell caster as a move action and readies an action (as a standard action) to move toward the spell caster if he begins to cast a spell. The spell caster remains where he is and begins to cast a spell. The warrior's readied action is triggered: he moves adjacent to the spell caster. The spell caster now provokes an AoO from the warrior.
this is NOT possible
readying an action IS a standard action, same as in SRDno change in nomenclature "as a standard action" means the same thing everywhere in the book
ready an action never states you gain bonus actions for the round
by definition, 6 seconds = full-action = move + move = move + standard
length of a round doesn't just suddenly change
fighter moved 30' as a move action
then he readied, as a standard action, a trigger for a move action
that readied move action doesn't suddenly change into a standard action when it's triggered to be taken
can only ready a swift or fast action for the rest of that round
cannot even take a 5 foot step as part of that readied action since already moved
moving another 20' is another move action
that's a double move and a standard action all in the one round
the fighter can't actually perform that readied action until next round
and if do so it counts as his last action for the next round
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this is NOT possible
I don't understand your logic. Per the SRD, you can use a standard action to ready another standard action:
Readying is a standard action. ... You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action.
Player effectively says: "I use my move action to move 30' toward the caster. Then I use my standard action to ready another move action to move 20' and adjacent to the caster if he starts casting a spell." So the player is taking a move and using his standard action to ready another move which, as you've pointed out, is a perfectly legal double move. After that second move action, the character's turn is over.
Now that the character is adjacent to the caster, he is allowed an AO as the caster begins casting. The AO isn't considered part of the character's action, it's a reaction (so to speak) to the caster casting while threatened.
-Skeld
I think it's my fault for confusing the situation.
The rules explicitly say you can Ready a Standard Action, which since there is only one Standard Action in a Round, means this Readied Action is "Part" of the Ready Action Standard Action, since otherwise one couldn't ready a Standard Action.
The wording SHOULD be cleared up to more clearly explain that this is the case (vs. Readying REMAINING actions), since it's currently indicated only indirectly - the other (otherwise plausible) interpretation would lead to using TWO Standard Actions to Ready a Standard Attack.
It WOULD still be nice to clarify whether Delay Action only applies to your ENTIRE TURN as a whole, or can apply to individual Actions, allowing you to take some Actions and then Delay the rest (still shifting your Initiative to the later point).
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It WOULD still be nice to clarify whether Delay Action only applies to your ENTIRE TURN as a whole, or can apply to individual Actions, allowing you to take some Actions and then Delay the rest (still shifting your Initiative to the later point).
By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act.
Emphasis mine. It seems reasonable that "you take no action" implies that delaying applies to the entire round, instead of just idvidual actions within the round. However, this could probably be clarified by simply saying "you take no actions" and calling it a day.
-Skeld
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Quandary,
I don't think you confused the situation; I think veebles identified a paradox of wording in the rules.
Normally, only one standard action is allowed. Readied actions are considered a standard action and allow you to take an action later (as part of that standard action).
Delaying, I think, is intended to affect your PC's entire turn; thus delaying after taking an action in a round wouldn't be possible. You're right that the wording needs work. Especially this piece:
Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the delayed action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed an action, you don’t get to take a delayed action (though you can delay again).
and this isn't even possible,
If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
because you must choose a lower initiative number. That means you cannot delay until the following round. Semantics, I know.
I humbly suggest "Delay: You may choose to delay on your turn. When you choose to delay, pick an initiative number. You take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative number you decide to act. If the number you choose is higher than your previous initiative number, you act normally on the next round. Your initiative result becomes the count on which you take your delayed action. A delayed action is the first action you take on your new initiative number; it can be a full-round action, standard, move, swift, or free/immediate action. This does not allow you to take actions you would otherwise be denied (e.g. if your character is Slowed, he cannot choose to take a full-round action after a Delay.) You never get back the time you spend waiting to see what’s going to happen. You also can’t interrupt anyone else’s action (as you can with a readied action)."
As I see it, to be explicitly clear, we should rename "Delay" to be "Delay TURN", if that's the intention. But we don't need to get caught in the semantics of the Initiative system, which is basically reverse Clock Time:
I think both the physical-analogy wording of Beta ("your initiative count rises to that new point") and your revised wording (which gets caught up in "if the initiative is higher than your previous initiative...") is un-necessary to convey a very simple concept, Clock Time. Restraining the terminology to direct time-words ("delay") avoids all the problems and uses much less words.
Here's my rewording of it, which cuts out SEVERAL SENTENCES, yet conveys the same information in a clear way:
I avoid usage of non-direct Time reference words until the last part, where I comment on how the new Initiative can shift "higher" or "lower" in the Initiative count. Other than that, I pretty much only use the word "delay", and then reference acting "on" Initiative counts in the present tense. This cut several sentences, and still has some redundancy left! The last bit could even add an extra emphasis of "You never can take more than one Turn per Round", which would still fall under the word count of the Beta version.
Another case: can you ready an action to Charge an enemy caster if he starts to cast a spell?
A Charge action is a full-round action, so the answer should be 'no'. However...(page 149):
"If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn."
This was obviously made for characters who want to charge in the Surprise round, or under the effects of a Slow spell. But can this be applied to the 'Ready an Action' as well?
I've always allowed a character to "Ready a 'Partial Charge' ", but I'm not sure if this is allowed by RAW or not.
If it's desirable to allow Readying a Partial Charge (which I would agree),
perhaps Partial Charge should simply be made a Standard Action,
with the Caviat that you can't make another Move Action with it...???
EDIT: I revised the wording on Delay to be even clearer and shorter:
I brought this up to see how other people play a readied situation. I personally have never played a readied action as in the example I provided. In fact we've always played them as veebles stated, namely that essentially, you give up "1/2 of your actions" so-to-speak for the chance to interrupt someone else's turn.
But then I re-read the readied action rules the other day and as they are written, noticed that a readying an action is a standard action. This lead me to my OP. I agree with Quandry, that it should be stated what is intended, as one of my interpretations is off. Personally, I like keeping a readied action as a standard action and you still have your move action. It allows for the following (and less contentious) example:
Scenario: Rath, Milo and Saros are in a dungeon battling several orcs. Saros is unconscious and Rath has just managed bring him to safety inside a small chamber with a strong door, while Milo is still outside the door battling the orcs and fending them off. Milo is 20' from the door.
DM: "Ok Bob, it's your turn, what is Rath going to do?"
Bob: "Well I think Saros is safe. Rath is going to run to the door, and ready an action to close it when Milo comes through."
This action would not be possible if readying an action is a standard action where you are essentially "readying" the other part of your turn. Rath would already have to be next to the door.
In the example in my OP, it really isn't as bad as it at first sounds. The spellcaster might suspect the intention and just cast defensively, or move 30' away himself and just nullify the effect of the readied action. Two very simple counters.
I think though that it opens the doors a little to the potential of readied actions. For instance, replace the warrior with a rogue that is hiding in my OP example, and the sequence of events mechanically looks very interesting IMHO.
Well, if you depart from the RAW interpretation,
and say you are Readying normal actions not "included" in Ready, that means...
you can't Ready an Attack!!! (So exactly how would you EVER interrupt Spells?)
(the problem is that the entire wording doesn't CLEARLY match the stated capabilities of Ready. You must INFER which is the correct interpretation by the stated fact that you CAN Ready Standard Actions.)
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Going back to the drawing board on the whole Readied Action issue, I have two thoughts.
1) Readying an action ought to cost something. Right now, the 'costs' we have are swift, move and standard actions.
2) To me, it would seem more straight forward and easier to determine what's legal and what isn't if the cost for readying an action were separate from the action itself. I think we can all see that the current "it's a standard action that includes another standard action ... or maybe it isn't" is too confusing.
So, give readying an action a cost like any other action - I lean towards swift or move, but could handle standard - and it becomes just another part of the 'action economy' (Quandry's term from another thread, I believe).
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Going back to the drawing board on the whole Readied Action issue, I have two thoughts.
1) Readying an action ought to cost something. Right now, the 'costs' we have are swift, move and standard actions.
2) To me, it would seem more straight forward and easier to determine what's legal and what isn't if the cost for readying an action were separate from the action itself. I think we can all see that the current "it's a standard action that includes another standard action ... or maybe it isn't" is too confusing.
So, give readying an action a cost like any other action - I lean towards swift or move, but could handle standard - and it becomes just another part of the 'action economy' (Quandry's term from another thread, I believe).
There is an implied cost with readying an action - if the situation does not develop then you lose that action for the round. So, as one poster pointed out the caster could simply move 30' before casting the spell, putting himself outside of the range of the fighter. I would also allow the caster to notice the fighter focusing on him in which case the caster could cast defensively.
This is definitely a thought-provoking subject. In my opinion, casting in combat carries very little consequence. Casters can often shield themselves by simply taking a 5' step. The casting defensively check is pretty much a joke by mid levels. I would like to see more opportunities for spell interruption, back to the days of 1e/2e where casters very seldom cast spells in combat since all it took was a hit prior to their spot in the initiative order to ruin a spell. The situation in the OP does have an issue though - if the spell being cast is a standard action and the fighter uses a move action to approach the caster (and move/standard actions are assumed to take the same amount of time) does the spell complete before the fighter even gets to the caster? I would probably house rule that the two combatants roll an opposed initiative check (or just an opposed Dex check) to see which action gets off a split-second before the other (fighter cleaves caster in two just before he gets out the final syllable or caster completes spell just as fighter gets to him).
Since it explicitly says you can Ready a Standard Action,
that's a big hint the other interpretation is wrong.
Clarify the wording and it's not confusing anymore.
(It's only confusing when you think about it too much. It gives all the info you need to use it.)
RE: Partial Charge & Ready
I rather hope Partial Charge IS made a Standard Action (that disallows other Movement/Move Action), because as of the current setup, you CAN Ready a Partial Charge, but only on a Surprise Round when you're limited to a Standard Action. That just makes no sense, so hopefully we'll see that change make it to the final product.
Michael Cummings:
Read my first post in this thread. It quotes the rules on Ready.
Ready always happens just before the triggering action: You ALREADY beat their Initiative.