Abominable Snowmen

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Item Production Reduction

Maximum magic item production per city is 4/2/1 per month.
Buildings do not stack, they supercede.
For instance, a Marketplace overrides the production of an Alchemist, regardless of which order they are built.
Similarly, a Waterfront produces exactly the same as combining a Blackmarket and Cathedral.
Multiple buildings of the same type do not increase production (ie. 2 Temples produce just as many as 1 Temple does).
The only way to produce 4 Minor items per month is with a Magic Shop.
It is impossible to produce more than 1 Major Item per month.

    1/0/0 Alchemist, Herbalist, Shrine, Exotic Craftsman
    2/0/0 Marketplace, Temple, Luxury Store
    2/1/1 BlackMarket
    3/2/0 Cathedral, Academy, Caster Tower
    3/2/1 Waterfront
    4/2/1 Magic Shop


Major__Tom wrote:
Actually, I got to DM for Margaret Weis a couple of times, playing Tasselhoff in charity events. And the kender pouch was two-way. Stuff didn't only come out of it, PC stuff would end up in it as well. She never knew exactly what it was, I had to keep the list. Nothing magical or particularly valuable, of course, that's not how Tass worked. But it was most interesting.

I like that concept :D

variant could be a "store" that pulls/pools from the nearest source...
What're you all looking at me for? I'm no thief!
It's not my fault his rope went missing when I pulled one out of my bag
He probably misplaced it someplace
You tallshanks leave useful stuff laying around all over the place
all the while giving us innocent little folk a bad name
haven't you ever heard of sharzies? common funds? party treasure? shame on you!
now where did I put your pocketwatch, ahem, I mean my pocketwatch...
be a fun party balancer when another PC hoards everything and never uses it (as a character trait)


Hmmm...this does beg to ask the question (apologies for being so late)

Does this include food? Especially for Two-zies!
There's never enough food around for Two-zies.
A poor little guy could starve to death ya know.
Nothing much mind you, just a turnip would be fine.
And well, maybe an apple? with some cheese? Oh and bread please?
Sure could do with a turkey leg though, my tummy is grumbling aweful fierce.
Some cider would go down easy right about now, and maybe a wee fish or two.
Wonder if I have any marshmallows in here for the fire.
After all, everyone knows dessert is the most important meal of the day...


One option to address the mechanics equality issue, but I don't recommend, is...

Class based XP/level
So, L1 in any class costs exactly the same, regardless of character level.
However, feats and stat boosts remain tied to character level.
Now, this can easily open up a huge can of worms at early levels.
Can be throttled with a feat per additional class to build this way.
Maybe even separate feats for L1-5, 5-10, 11-15,...
It is important for balance that only character level feats are used.
Name the special feat(s) whatever to your liking.

Again, I don't recommend doing so, the system isn't designed for this.
There are many many reasons it was never an option in the original D&D in the first place.
It can create some very nasty hidden side effects, regardless.
Expect players to look for "I win" exploits in it. Don't trust them!
I would strongly suggest building a few at different levels, before ever allowing it in your game.
Adding a Prestige Class level requirement would be very wise.

That said, it does open up playing some really cool character concepts.
It is YOUR version of the game that you're running in the end ;)


just a thought ;)
suddenly making the wizard a spontaneous caster, creates an exploit.
have you considered making Theurge a Sorceror/Cleric instead?
this would be more consistant with historical earthen magic mythos
the devotional lifestyle required for a wizard or cleric also seems to proclude combining the two like this
well, in my mind anyway lol :D
does open the door to a pretty nasty evil necromancer though hehe :)
also need to carefully consider spells/day and spells known either way, so that's not an exploit ;)
hope you find my old hairy tooth ramblings useful


pg 161
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only.
Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that
can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it
isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are a utomatically
considered willing, but a character who is conscious
but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound,
cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not
automatically willing.

this example list of helpless if VERY misleading too
the only thing in common is loss of Dex bonus to AC
only paralyzed and bound qualify as examples of helpless in that list

pg 401
Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can
take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is
flat-footed. A pinned character also takes an additional –4...

this needs a rewrite too :O
bound is a form of helpless by definition
I was VERY confused on this issue until I read the SRD
the combination of both as written, infers open to coup de grace if flat-footed

that means a rogue can coup de grace ANYONE in suprize round with the suprize attacks talent,
since as uncanny dodge does not stop flat-footed

SRD states quite clearly in definition of Pinned to the contrary


haven't seen 4th ed or saga so wouldn't know
read the talent tree thread and off my mind went a few days later is all lol :D

[edit]
ROTFL :D just wandered over to have a peek at saga!
even use the same terms *cough*
my apologies evabody, didn't know about all that
been living in a social bubble the past couple years

could a moderator please close this thread and bury it where it belongs? ty :)


anthony Valente wrote:

On page 153 of the Beta rules, it states you can ready an action as a standard action. You can ready a standard action, move action, a swift action, or a free action.

Now can you do this?

Scenario:

A spell caster and warrior are in 50' away from each other. The warrior has initiative and moves 30' toward the spell caster as a move action and readies an action (as a standard action) to move toward the spell caster if he begins to cast a spell. The spell caster remains where he is and begins to cast a spell. The warrior's readied action is triggered: he moves adjacent to the spell caster. The spell caster now provokes an AoO from the warrior.

this is NOT possible

readying an action IS a standard action, same as in SRD
no change in nomenclature "as a standard action" means the same thing everywhere in the book
ready an action never states you gain bonus actions for the round
by definition, 6 seconds = full-action = move + move = move + standard
length of a round doesn't just suddenly change

fighter moved 30' as a move action
then he readied, as a standard action, a trigger for a move action
that readied move action doesn't suddenly change into a standard action when it's triggered to be taken
can only ready a swift or fast action for the rest of that round
cannot even take a 5 foot step as part of that readied action since already moved
moving another 20' is another move action
that's a double move and a standard action all in the one round
the fighter can't actually perform that readied action until next round
and if do so it counts as his last action for the next round


pinned also means open to sneak attack from a third party
the status is nearly helpless, but not quite
be happy about that, helpless means wide open to coup de grace


quick thought - maybe cap cantrip use to a max total time equal to caster level in hours per day


the mechanic is already there for fatigued and exhausted as an example, just follow suit,
it hits in an instant, an interrupt action as all saves are
the penalty is the change of state, they limit actions
adding an arbitrary action cost anymore than that is double dipping ;)
also would entail inserting a lot of "except in the case of spells..." all over the place


may have a simple solution,
bonus spells from high ability are those conc slots
or are how many you get where
no need to assign a value then, it's the spell level
or assign a rating, and conc pool = sum of bonus spell levels


agree with you there bden
this is about the core racial traits that get sub-culture adjustments per setting
it sets the format for adding races in a later book


rotfl

should be using the terms Humons and vertically-challenged-lings too


I prefer the SS way too, for what it's worth
with the option to take monster levels if/when choose to
rather see racial HP dice rolled too, with a profession modifier


Proposing a quick leap down the corridors of personalised characters with a self-expandable core class.
Replace Rogue with Scout, from which both Thief and Rogue can be built by a player who so desires.
This can be done, by using Specialized Terrains as delimiters for skills, abilities, feats and talents.
No need to formally name combos, every PC is custom built by thier player.

For instance, a Rogue or Thief is an Urban Scout if you think about it.
Natural pathing for Pirates, Spies, Bandits, Sailors, Card Sharks, Thugs, Stalkers, Cassanovas and whatnot.
Ninja not included, as better a Monk variant. Same for PrC Assassin, as better a Ranger variant.
Not saying either should be, just that they lean moreso in that direction than as a Scout variant.

Talent system expanded into class streams, sort of like feature packages or talent trees.
Combat feat talents replaced with scout combat styles to help new players focus.
Often appears overpowered at first glance, until terrains, limitations, and availability considered.
Availability achieves the same as assigning point values, without the unnecessary math or value debates.
Certain features have prerequisites to focus builds, the better the features the harder the prerequisites.

Inappropriate for the core rules due to size, over 10 pages of talents.
If nothing else, displays another method of designing classes, instead of multiple support books.
Common PrC are woven in already, to also eliminate support book clutter.
Not fussed about the name being scout, it's just an easy handle.

Your input is requested please...

Download link for current version here v0.1.8 alpha
Unfortunately it's a docfile atm, google hasn't implemented public pdfs yet.


Have to admit I'm no fan of how PrCs have digressed,
from original intent and design as elite forms of core classes.
It's been torn off in different directions by sporadic inspiration, not implying that's a bad thing.

There seems a need to sift, to reclassify many as Variant Classes instead and others as Multiclass Variants.
Only then can proper analysis or comparison be done for appropriate features.
There is a need for Pathfinder to have Prestige and Variant guidelines, defining parameters and restrictions.
We are missing the tools needed to resolve issues like MT in mutual agreeance as a result.

At the moment, debates appear based on "gut-feel" vindicated with selective logic. I repeat "appear".
Not saying that's wrong, nor that anyone is, it just comes across as having less substance, so less productive.


I've been fortunate enough to game with a group of GMs since the late 80's, a different DM/GM per campaign
all still game elsewhere and online on the side, but maintain the private coven ;)
Have found doing both stems off G.ame O.verseer D.iscretion burn out


I used the wrong word for martial, I didn't mean complexity as taken,
but rather as meaning improved/better designed for warfare
my apologies, it's my fault I was misunderstood

crossbows were very common because so simple to learn (days to weeks) compared to longbows (years), until outlawed by the church which made them martial - by access
that didn't happen in fantasy settings so simple still applies
the crossbow was a simple version of the roman arbalest, made for irregulars

it's true that construction is also coincidence to availability
availability to commonfolk being the key factor - access

the table stems back to an old tabletop wargaming rhetoric is all
it's not exclusive to AD&D, both forms of gaming have progressed since then
What I was trying to say (and apparantly failed miserably to do so), is let's move forward, further from that.


be good to add Quick Draw to the build to make full use of Two-Weapon Fighting for thrown

"A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow)."


list of spell-like abilities to choose from, if become a caster may do part of the trick ;)
DM can customise the list to suit the setting - including no choices
these don't have to be listed spells either, which makes them even more racial
a sort of "coming of age" thing that happens, not something learned
becoming a caster triggers it


looks like it provokes two AoO to me

one for diverting attention, as Pick up an item and Retrieve a stored item both do

one for trying to escape
but, run up and snatch = cannot take a 5-foot step after
can't combine with spring attack either
so you can't just run up, grab it, and run away all in the same round ;)


I thought TS, Udodge and IUD were given to barbarian as a basic package to compensate for Armour restrictions
also makes them wiley like an animal, a sort of danger sense
ever try to outflank a wild carnivore? ;)
okay, now, how about a rabid one (enraged)? :)

I was suggesting evasion maybe as a rage power or added after 10th level, not replacing IUD
If dropped, only a Rogue can be immune to sneak attacks

I'm against reducing Barbarians down to nothing more than tanks, that's what the can heads are for ;)


you should have made that clear at the beginning LOL :)

what you want is a Fighter only feat
wait, no, can't do that, other classes can get fighter feats.
must be a Fighter class feature.
wait, no, can't do that, someone can just multi-class.
must be some other way.
wait no, can't do it all, someone could use a wish or miracle to get it.


I gather you've never played Rolepmaster Laurefindel hehe :)


Roman wrote:
veebles wrote:

what I meant by bell curve use, is there is no average when using 1 die

there is an equal chance of rolling any number
the more times rolled, the more the results flat line
trends occur which can give a person the illusion otherwise
especially if prone to gambling addiction "if this happens, or I do that, then the die tends to roll x"

on the other hand, two or more dice produce an average. for instance, 2d6 average is 7
there are more combinations that equal 7 than any other, with 2 and 12 being unique combinations
that produces a natural bell curve

OK, I think you are confusing distribution with average/mean. A d6 die does have a mean/expected value and it is 3.5. The distribution of a single die is uniform, yes, but the mean value still exists. If we have more than one die than we start to get an approximation to the normal distribution and thus the bell curve, but averages/means/expected results exist even in distributions without bell curves.

incorrect, I was not getting anything confused, I just replied in layman terms

like I said, I was having a "fussy" moment, which you seem to be having here now rotfl :P
we just disagree, that's all silly - relax :D
I come from a background that deals in absolutes not expected values
no reason for us to lock heads over it, let our professors duke that out ;)


it does to me ;)

to those it doesn't, humour me for a moment please
IF I repeat IF you are right or left handed, then tie your "on-hand" behind your back for a day.
then tell us whether you still disagree that it's a -4 LOL :)


to me it's a bit hit and miss, as to which weapons are where atm

"simple" implies construction, hence availability
"martial" infers quality, design complexity and access, thus availability
"exotic" implies foreign construction and materials, again availability

weapon style usage are sub-categories within each - the training
as in trained for light, heavy, ranged, 2 handed, etc

seems pretty straight forward to me, but a couple weapons listed don't abide by that

if the great club is just a bigger club, then it's just as simple.
if it's a spiked warclub, makes perfect sense to be a martial weapon.
even if just banded with metal, makes it a martial weapon - by design.
if crafted in an unusual way or shape, then it's exotic - by design.
the exact same weapon style is used to wield it in all four cases.

weapon damage shouldn't be a category factor, it's a tendency of coincidence
style used effects damage, style restricts both design and size used
better design causes more damage, design effects style used
bigger weapons cause more damage, size effects style used
better is not bigger, but may be. bigger is not better, but may be.

martial weapons cause more damage, because they are designed better for warfare
exotic weapons are martial weapons designed differently, not necessarily better

thank you for the example Asturysk, perfect timing :)
the core listing is western, eastern weapons are exotic
that bokken/bokuto should be an exotic weapon per description
but in an eastern setting it should be a martial weapon
the exotic and martial weapon categories swap names in that setting

the underlying problem causing great club to even be an issue seems clear to me.
why is a feat required, when the exact same weapon style is used?
it's like costing a feat to learn more spells in the same domain or school.

What makes sense to me:
Weapon styles that include weapon size, as is done now.
Restrict weapons used with a weapon style, as is done now.
Character size based weapon restrictions and exclusions for weapon styles.
Str and Dex requirements for weapon styles; same for certain weapons.
simple/martial/exotic effects price and availability, nothing more.
Restrict class weapon style access, ie those known and may learn.
Extremely odd design, or strange use, needs a special weapon style.
Weapon style based feats, instead of weapon design based feats.
Minor differences in looks or weight balance should not require a feat, as they do now.


hmmm...

lemme see if I've got this right over the course of this very short topic...

old school camp: restrict class access based on race
new old school camp: restrict class access based on race, cultural variants
realist camp: restrict class access based on culture, cultural variants, class bonus based on sub-race
new school camp: any class, racial class bonus, cultural variants
alpha camp: any class, bonus for archtypes, penalized for multi-classing or taking a PrC
beta camp: any class, penalized for multi-classing or taking a PrC
omega camp: any class, no bonus/penalty, new zero the caffeine free flavourless diet rpg
Y school camp: why bother? why argue? why not? why even use dice?
dreamer camp: gimme, gimme, gimme, more not less, more, more, more, don't care what just more
power tools camp: my drow half-dragon thief/assassin/paladin/ranger better have an "I win" button

did I miss any? :D


Trap Sense is a natural extension of Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Endurance + Evasion could replace the features suggested in one fell swoop ;)

maybe restrict use to favoured terrains?


I'll try to point clearer just for you Cliff ;)

cannot sneak attack either way it's written
loss of Dexterity bonus to AC, is not the issue
all you did was rephrase what I said on that matter

Bluff states flat-footed. Feint does not.
flat-footed also means no attacks of opportunity.
that's an important difference. it's not the same thing.
Feint should clarify what Bluff states, not the other way around.


pg 94
Stunning Fist (Combat)...
A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action).

only extraordinary effect defining duration of 1 round

pg 133
ACTIONS IN COMBAT
The Combat Round...
A round...
usually means a span of time from 1 round to the same initiative count in the next round.
Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.

pretty clear there lol

I stand corrected, thank you Fatespinner ;)


how about a "here comes the judge" DMG companion book?
a rules interpretation guidebook with errata, FAQ, examples and clarifications, index of rules, etc


actually it doesn't have to be complicated
just don't scale the rule per base speed, a static rate rule
so even if able to move 60 ft in a round, still lose -1 attack after 10 ft ;)

or full-move = 1 attack, half-move = half attacks rddn, quarter move = all attacks


racial magic already exists in the race descriptions
but agree it could do with a bit more flavour added
a gnome wizard should always be different to an elf wizard for example
nothing earth shattering, just something that sets each race apart in every proffession including casters
rather than just +2 to this and -2 to that
seed roleplaying instead of number crunching ;)


might even be better as a Reflex save for the first one,
meaning spit it out, hold breath, evade at the last moment from injection, etc.

agreed, once it's in your system it's really to late for a froopy save

to me, a racial bonus makes sense for enduring poisons/disease ie Dwarves
maybe poison use develops a resistance over time
can see why giving disease resistance to divine casters is appropriate
ie clerics, rangers, druids, paladins
could equally argue for rangers and barbarians gaining poison resistance through survival skill ranks
giving a bonus to others never has sit right with me, just feels wrong is all


pg 95 Pathfinder Beta pdf

Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make
one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with
two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand
lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See
Two-Weapon Fighting in Chapter 9.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand,
you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.
When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with
your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and
a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your offhand
weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each.
An unarmed strike is always considered light.

implies a -4, but true not specifically stated that I'm aware of


agree with the "sweet spot" problem, auto successes do appear too soon
maybe progession should be slower there or taper off - dunno
have seen a lot of 1's rolled for the odd trivial matter by high level chars though rotfl :D
seems to hurt player pride a lot more than the character ;)

what I meant by bell curve use, is there is no average when using 1 die
there is an equal chance of rolling any number
the more times rolled, the more the results flat line
trends occur which can give a person the illusion otherwise
especially if prone to gambling addiction "if this happens, or I do that, then the die tends to roll x"

on the other hand, two or more dice produce an average. for instance, 2d6 average is 7
there are more combinations that equal 7 than any other, with 2 and 12 being unique combinations
that produces a natural bell curve

was just in a fussy mood when I read it is all lol ;)


maybe tone down things a little, so they aren't heaps better than spells

for example:

Sleep Adaptation: one day per Con modifier point or 5 ranks in Survival or 3 Ranger levels
Thirst Adaptation: same
Hunger Adaptation: same

Aquatic Adaptation: hold breath underwater for up to Con mod in minutes per ranger level.

Underground Adaptation: darkvision 30’ for one hour per two ranger levels daily.


I've always taken it to mean until the opponent's turn next round,
in line with similar rules


I agree, the proposed changes Jason is pondering may solve a lot

maybe even scale it, so the higher the BAB the further you can advance
ie -1 attack per 5 ft after the first 5 ft
so if you have 3 attacks, can move 15 ft and have 1 attack, 10 ft for 2 attacks, or 5ft for 3 attacks


KaeYoss wrote:

I'm not sure normal ravens in D&D can learn a language. I think all "talking" birds can do is "parrot" sounds...

Animals go quite high up there. A guy with an IQ of 75 (stupid) would be outsmarted by a dolphin all the time! And from what I know of current ranges, 75 is only one deviation below the standard range (which goes from 85 to 115), so it's still not that uncommon.

research has shown that larger birds make decisions on which sounds they mimic, not randomly like small ones.

raven murders in particular have been recorded working together to cause minor car accidents on purpose to get food.
that said, the animal listings were from research studies and do not represent the norm
ie elephants that paint, gorillas that use a computer to "talk",
dolphins that design thier own routines in marine parks,
orcas that disarm mines and kill unauthorized divers via knife strapped on thier back,
and so on...
they're in a vaccuum, under intensive training by scientists trying to prove something ;)
half the rating is likely the average at a sheer guess

btw - I did mention dug up from old dusty notes, meaning back from the 70's and 80's lol :D


I don't like this, sorry

the "average method" is an incorrect application of a bell curve

the "maximum method" is no different than using larger dice than a d20 and adding +1

the current system scales by injecting a minimum result in the equation
this represents overcoming the lesser problems in an adventurer's life


makes sense to me, considering Longspear is

possibly Sap too, since Light Mace is


just a thought...

for a poison/disease to always be dangerous, regardless of level,
make it a Con check instead of Fort save
only bonus being a specific bonus vs poison and/or disease


sorry for the double post - no edit option again

reason I pointed this out...
if Feint only causes loss of Dex bonus to AC, then U-Dodge makes one immune to Feint
if Feint causes Flat-Footed, then U-Dodge does not make one immune to Feint, which makes more sense


cliff wrote:
veebles wrote:

doesn't indicate flat-footed, but flat-footed causes loss of Dex bonus

That's so it a different state. If the target is flat-footed, that allows/means certain things that being Flanked or not being allowed DEX bonus don't. It's just simplification of terms so that it's clear what situation applied to the target.

Feint causes loss of DEX bonus application, but so does being Flanked, however, being FLanked also grants +2 bonus to attackers.

;-)

I only added that bit about feint to draw attention to a discrepancy ;)

Majuba wrote:

Page 56

Feint: You can also use Bluff to feint in combat, causing your opponent to be flat-footed against your next attack.


KaeYoss wrote:
Kaisoku wrote:


There's a good article on "Calibrating your Expectations". It is one of the articles that helped fuel the idea of E6.
Good catch. The article really is quite good. Maybe a little bit off here and there (5th-level "regular" characters with an 18 in their top ability score) but overall, it does a great work of showing what the numbers mean.

I agree, that is a good article, except as KaeYoss mentioned.

The references to real world statistics are quite accurate.
Thanx Kaisoku! :)

Dug up some old dusty research notes, that might help...

Binet formula (1905) IQ = (mental age / chronological age) x 100

IQ obsolete terms mental age (comparative zoology)
<20 idiot <3 (fish, amoeba)
20 imbecile 3 (cattle, shark, reptile, insect, bat)
35 simpleton, naive 5 (gorilla, canine, horse, rodent, songbird)
50 moronic, clueless 8 (elephant, feline, parrot)
75 stupid, inept 13 (chimpanzee, raven)
80 challenged 15 (dolphin, orca)
90 normal 18
110 clever, competant
130 insightful, gifted
150 brilliant, genius

IQ p20 dnd Terman/Wechsler scale |minimum for...
<20 (1%) 00 profound retardation
20 (4%) 01 severe retardation
35 (10%) 02 moderate retardation |trainable
50 (85%) 03 mild retardation |educable
<70 01 Feeble-minded/Defective
75 02 04 Borderline deficiency
80 03 05 Dullness
85 06 |Jr High School
90 06 08 Average Human (min) |Laborer
95 09 |Crafter
100 11 |Tradesman
105 13 10 Average Human (max) |Guildmeister
110 16 11 Superior/Bright Normal |Sr High School, Professional
115 18 12 Above Average |University
120 19 13 Very Superior |Mensa member, Mentor
130 20 15 Gifted |Post-graduate
140 (50%) 16 Near Genius, Highly Gifted |Intellectual, Professor, Research Scientist
150 (35%) 17 Genius
160 (10%) 18 Profound Genius |Nobel Prize level (ie Einstein)
180 (4%) 19 Extreme Genius
200 (1%) 20 Beyond Genius
200+ 21+ Immeasurable
p20 based on percentage of population, with 01 and 20 each representing 2%
p20 (#%) is the percentage of that 2% represented by 01 and 20
dnd rating based on original Gygax scale from 1st edition


whooops! full apologies for all that :(
and thank you all for taking the time to sort me out good and proper :)

I neglected benefits from uncanny dodge itself entirely
3 days without sleep didn't help lol

stunning defense I read the BAB for deadly stroke - duh
being currently half blind in one eye didn't help much either lol

*wonders how many other stupid posts I made that day*

recap from a different angle... UD + IUD =
immune to sneak attacks, unless flanked by a rogue 4 levels higher
can be flat-footed, andso denied AoO, but still retain Dex bonus to AC
flat-footed during suprise round and from a feint

pg 151 beta pdf
Feint
Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill
check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent’s
base attack bonus + your opponent’s Wisdom modifier.
If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the
DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent’s Sense Motive
bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you
make against the target does not allow him to use his
Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
This attack must be made
on or before your next turn.

doesn't indicate flat-footed, but flat-footed causes loss of Dex bonus


how about...

groups cost same as skills, but get a bonus when using a specific skill?

no cost for groups, every 5 ranks in a skill raises group +1 rank?
then group rank is a bonus to it's skills
and/or used for untrained roll bonus


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