I am going to make this simple.
With heavy armor specificlly heavy armor for most classes, except fighter, becomes useless as characters who start with a dex of 10 will most likely outgrow full plate, and even mithral full plate with +5 books, and +6 enhancement item possible. With medium armor this is somewhat a problem too.
So how is my paladin and other non core classes going to deal with this?
High dex characters are supposed to wear light armor. Medium Dex characters wear medium armor, No dex characters were heavy armor.
If you awlays build your characters the same way, piling on the dex, you will always be in light armor.
A suit of +5 celestial chain mail seems what all your characters are destined for.
Why not have one of the mages in the game invent a magical Nth metal thats soo much better than mithral, it allows full plate that allows a +8 dex?
Is that what you're looking for?
Right, Pendagast.
And from what Jason has said, it sounds likes he's planning on adding additional "benefits"
to Med/Heavy Armor/Shields, such as DR/-, to make them more inherently valuable.
(for what that's worth)
I think more DR for players would be a very good think. It can be hard to live through a couple of rounds with some of the bigger monsters that characters face, being able to ignore a bit of the damage each hit would help melee survivability without increasing HP by an insane amount.
I wanted to point out that DR is not NECESSARILY in the cards,
it was just being "considered" as one option (others mentioned included raising AC)
to maintain the "value" of Medium/ Heavy Armor vis a vis their penalties.
I like the idea of DR for armor, but I'm afraid it will slow down game play. But I want to try that at least once.
No more so than energy resistance does. As it stands right now a barbarian is going to have damage reduction starting at level 7 and a fighter can get up to 12 points of damage reduction by level 19 (shield feats for 4/- adamantine armor for 3/- and armor mastery for 5/-... like types of damage reduction stack unless specifically stated otherwise), so damage reduction for player characters is already available.
I dont think DR slows down play any, think of how many monsters already have it?
Players will/do just subtract the DR rating from the damage they just recieved.
Heck back when trolls (1e) had really good regeneration (its really nerfed now) thats what I used to do, just subtract what they heal from the damage the party lumped on them every round, so it kinda WAS a DR in that way.
Anyway wanting good dex characters to wear mega plate armor or clerics who heal as free actions and things like that dont sound like "high level play" issues so much as something handled in game with a wish spell, no?
Of course, " I wish my plate armor was light" would get it transformed into a chain shirt in a heart beat, so Im not sure how you could word that. But both ideas are really a reality alteration.
IF you had a heavy shield +5 (7 AC) and celestial chain +5 (10 AC) with a max dex of +8 that would let you have 25 AC.
If you allowed somehow full plate to allow a max dex of +8, you'd only be picking up 3 AC from that whole deal anyway. Not a huge issue.
Im sure this could be handled in game somehow by master armorer Guru-fun-dung-flinger with an insane craft skill level and the proper item creation feats and some crazy quest to steal the droppings from the worlds oldest ore-eating dragon and gather enough poo from it to smelt it down and make this unbelievable armor.
I mean isnt that what PC Item creation feats are for? Surely you dont spend those feats to make your living crafting +1 Longswords for every toad that wants to buy them?
If a PC could theoretically do this. Im sure If you looked hard enough and told the GM what you are questing for, said smith could be found, the ore-eating dragon defeated, and the poo brought back from the deep caves of the mountain and the armor created: ALL so you could get +3 AC more!
(Actually it sounds easier to me than trying to word the wish correctly and not get shang hi-ed into a pink too-too +5, for armor.)
No more so than energy resistance does. As it stands right now a barbarian is going to have damage reduction starting at level 7 and a fighter can get up to 12 points of damage reduction by level 19 (shield feats for 4/- adamantine armor for 3/- and armor mastery for 5/-... like types of damage reduction stack unless specifically stated otherwise), so damage reduction for player characters is already available.
Yes no more than energy resistance, but we will have to track both if DR for armor become a rule. And yes there is DR for Barbarian (eventually for high level fighters) but it's not the same as DR for everyone.
Ok that's completely different than 3.5
In 3.5 damage reduction of different types didn't stack but damage reduction of the same type stacked with itself unless one of the effects granting damage reduction stated otherwise.
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Ok that's completely different than 3.5
In 3.5 damage reduction of different types didn't stack but damage reduction of the same type stacked with itself unless one of the effects granting damage reduction stated otherwise.
Yeah in 3.5 there wasn't any stacking of DR, sorry Abe you're wrong on this one.
Yeah, I went back through the books and realised it is the exact opposite, the things that give damage reduction that stacks with other damage reduction specifically state so not the other way around...
I had gotten it in my head that if it was the same form of damage reduction it stacks (i.e. damage reduction silver would stack with damage reduction silver but not with damage reduction cold iron).
I still see a lot of heavy armour used:
There's always mithral, which makes it somewhat more attractive to moderately dextrous characters.
Fighters have their max dex increased, to the point that mithral full plate is like a second skin to them.
Other classes that usually rely on heavy armour (clerics, paladins) won't bother with increasing dexterity beyond 12 (or maybe 16 if they get mithral armour) and just spend the money otherwise "wasted" on belts of dexterity (or more expensive belts that now have to increase dexterity on top of strength and/or constitution) and the really expensive tomes of great dexterity (or whatever they're called).
Why bother with increasing your dexterity (and not getting that much extra for it since lighter armour grants less AC) when you can spend that money on stuff like increases to str, con, wis, cha, or rods of quicken metamatic?
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Is that what you're looking for?
Aw, c'mon Pendagast, you can disagree without being so snarky! :)
I think the penalties for wearing heavy armor are too high as well.
It already requires a feat to wear heavy armor. It provides a higher AC that is noticable in low level play, but the utility quickly vanishes in higher level play. This is because the stat numbers rise in the game, but the limits and benefits on armor are hard and fast. I think this is a scaling issue.
The question is, what to do about it? Is spending a proficiency feat enough of a cost to justify growing utility of armor over the character's lifetime?
Gamist perspective of the problem
The only other feats that are close are weapon proficiency feats. The weapon itself doesn't change after you gain proficiency. Damage, criticals and other special abilities with the weapon require enhancement enchantments or further feats - but your BaB can be utilized as it rises with level to increase your chance to hit with the weapon. I don't see anything that rises with a characters levelto make armor more useful - this has always been the problem with AC in high level play - and therefore AC doesn't scale in anything like the same way weapon attacks do.
The other big issue with medium and heavy armor is that the penalties imposed on a character for proficient use of the armor are very high. Armor check penalties on tactical movement and and skill checks even with proficient use are nearly prohibitively high.
The OP mentioned going the dex route with his characters as their level rose - but I would like to ask if that's really what makes the heavy and medium armor less appealing. For me, the penalties far outweighed the utility. For me, the cost of 10' of tactical battle movement and an additional penalty of 4 (8 for swim) to many skills was in no way worth +4 to AC. Even with heavy armor proficient characters in low level campaigns, I have sacrificed +4 AC for mobility and skill usage (granted, I love skilled character) and will again.
In high level play, I have found AC to be pretty much worthless, personally. When I want to play a martial character, I play a gish that loads up on percentage miss chance spells, mirror image (greater mirror image = <3) and healing. I have seen another character give up on AC totally once they hit level 10+, and purposely build a character with only 10 AC - and not bother with any methods to raise it, choosing to evade and accept that anyone that attempts to hit them will hit them.
This saddens me. I would like defensive minded characters to have a chance at being successful in the game world. I have always wanted to play a defensive, protective character (bodyguard/paladin) who protects his friends from harm while they unleash magical death, but have been unable to build such a character (my idea of the perfect paladin) without the Tome of Battle's Crusader class and spellcasting. I think it should be doable in core.
Proposed Solution
I think AC is pretty close for levels 1-3. The prohibitive cost for the "best in category" armors at each tier seems about right to me, and the differences in AC are relevent at these levels.
I think the problems pop up a little bit at 4-5, but then are very real once the players hit level 6 and full attacks become an issue. Suddenly that 10' tactical movement penalty doesn't just limit mobility - it cripples movement but costs potential damage now too.
Once you start getting enchanted armor the problem exacerbates a little, because a +1 leather suit of armor increases in utility from providing a +2 to a +3 - a 50% increase in usefulness - while a +1 suit of banded mail rises from +6 to +7 - a 16.67% increase in usefulness.
So, I propose the following:
- Movement penalties for medium and heavy armor apply when there is no proficiency. But proficiency removes the movement penalty for tactical movement. I have no problem with running penalties, but I don't think walking or hustling should be seriously impeded by well made armor. Maybe a time limit of a number of minutes of combat equal to the character's constitution modifier before they become fatigued...?
- Armor check penalties should be removed or lessened for skills the armor wearer is trained in. In my feats proposals much earlier, I suggested that for every 3 ranks a character has in a skill, the armor check penalty for armor the character is proficient in would drop by 1 point. Thus a paladin with 6 ranks in ride and wearing Full Plate would suffer a penalty of 4, not 6, on Ride checks. The same paladin with 3 ranks in Swim would suffer an armor check penalty of 10 on his swim checks (this appeals to the simulationist in me - heavy armor should make swimming hard or impossible). I like this solution because the penalty only lessens for those things the character is willing to invest resources in - and it becomes worthwhile to spend skill points in skills like Ride and Acrobatics again for the armored character.
- Enhancement bonuses to medium and heavy armor should increase the offered AC more than the same enhancement bonus on light armor. A +5 chain shirt currently offers +9 to AC - an increase of 125% - while the same enchantment on full plate offers +13 to AC - and increase of 62.5% (essentially 1/2). What if each +1 to medium armor increased AC by +2, and each +1 to heavy armor increased AC by +3? A comparison:
Middle of each category:
+5 Leather: +7 to AC (250% increase in utility)
+5 Scale Mail: +14 to AC (250% increase in utility)
+5 Banded Mail: +21 to AC (250% increase in utility)
Top of each category:
+5 Chain Shirt: +9 to AC (125% increase in utility)
+5 Breastplate: +15 to AC (200% increase in utility)
+5 Full Plate: +23 to AC (187.5% increase in utility)
I would also like to say that I realize this hurts the fighter's armor training class feature quite a bit - because he's no longer gaining back movement and losing skill penalties - but I thought the class feature was a bad idea - not because fighters don't deserve more AC, but because it prevents other characters that depend on the same things (Paladins especially!) from using them to their full effect.
As Jess points out (glad I refreshed!), it's not "oh no, I can't max dex *and* get super-armor", it's that even a non-dex optimized character (starting with 10 dex), will eventually (at very high levels) have at least a +5 dex mod and be losing 2 AC. It's a bit of a corner case, but is an important point.
[random side note]Jess - Swim no longer doubles the armor check penalty.[/random side note]
As Jess points out (glad I refreshed!), it's not "oh no, I can't max dex *and* get super-armor", it's that even a non-dex optimized character (starting with 10 dex), will eventually (at very high levels) have at least a +5 dex mod and be losing 2 AC. It's a bit of a corner case, but is an important point.
[random side note]Jess - Swim no longer doubles the armor check penalty.[/random side note]
its not snarky, its a question, literally is that what you want?
I still think that issue can be handled in game with uniqune items, rather than say, make armor different then allowing every NPC to get the benefit as well.
again we are still talking about 3 AC not 5 or 8.
At some point attacking monsters and villans outpace your AC at higher levels anyway.
If there is a scaling issue I think its with higher level AC at all.
I mean there should still be uber armor that causes a great wyrm to miss, at least occasionally.
In 1e we used dragon scale and dragon plate and such as "super armors" to get AC's better than -10 (which was the best you could get at one time) the equivalent of a 30 AC these days.
But now dragon mail is just something thats neat that druids can wear.
So, maybe (well most likely) there is a need for uber armor, but it should be something really fantasic that simply isnt possible to just "buy" from the equipment list. But at the same time,should be something reasonably attainable by 15th + level characters.
Otherwise it's existance would make the uber rich aristocrat level 5 who happens to be a king, impossible to hit (at the lower levels)!
I still like the ideaof question for special metals and finding the tower of the lost dwarven mummy smith,to make this item, but Im not against getting "useable" AC at higher levels.
and since when does it require a feat to wear heavy armor, dont alot of character classes get heavy armor to start? (clerics, fighters, paladins) most of those who dont get it have feats or features that are ruined by it (ranger, barbarian, arcane casters etc)
Sure a druid has to take a feat to wear dragon plate, but thats an exception not the rule.
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High dex characters are supposed to wear light armor. Medium Dex characters wear medium armor, No dex characters were heavy armor.
If you awlays build your characters the same way, piling on the dex, you will always be in light armor.
A suit of +5 celestial chain mail seems what all your characters are destined for.Why not have one of the mages in the game invent a magical Nth metal thats soo much better than mithral, it allows full plate that allows a +8 dex?
Is that what you're looking for?
I agree, it's called balance.
Let's not break it too badly. To have a character with a +8 Dex bonus and +13 armor bonus, that's really bad...and unbalanced. +8 Dex bonus and +10 Armor bonus=+18, +13 armor bonus with +5 Dex bonus=+18...see how balance works?
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As Jess points out (glad I refreshed!), it's not "oh no, I can't max dex *and* get super-armor", it's that even a non-dex optimized character (starting with 10 dex), will eventually (at very high levels) have at least a +5 dex mod and be losing 2 AC. It's a bit of a corner case, but is an important point.
[random side note]Jess - Swim no longer doubles the armor check penalty.[/random side note]
Really?!? Aw, I liked that rule. It's the one armor check penalty that I think really makes sense from a simulationist perspective.
It's not even those corner cases where a low dex high level character in heavy armor will lose some Dex to AC. It's that AC is not scalable without magic, while everything else scales up by level. The fighter class feature Armor Training just exacerbates the issue by pointing out how screwed Paladins are.
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its not snarky, its a question, literally is that what you want?
Darn internets. I thought you were being sarcastic. Sorry!
and since when does it require a feat to wear heavy armor, dont alot of character classes get heavy armor to start? (clerics, fighters, paladins) most of those who dont get it have feats or features that are ruined by it...
It requires the feat Heavy Armor Proficiency. Granted, Fighters, Paladins and Clerics get that feat for free at first level. But it's still a feat.
Director of Games
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I think I am pretty comfortable with the balance between Dex and Armor bonus, considering that Armor is just about the cheapest way to get an AC bonus.
This is a tradeoff that I am not going to monkey with directly. There are going to be some options (just as there always have been) to circumvent this rule to a limited extent, but I think wide scale changes are not in the picture...
But then again.. maybe the fighter might get another nice perk concerning armor.. involving movement.. but I digress into spoiler territory.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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I think I am pretty comfortable with the balance between Dex and Armor bonus, considering that Armor is just about the cheapest way to get an AC bonus.
This is a tradeoff that I am not going to monkey with directly. There are going to be some options (just as there always have been) to circumvent this rule to a limited extent, but I think wide scale changes are not in the picture...
But then again.. maybe the fighter might get another nice perk concerning armor.. involving movement.. but I digress into spoiler territory.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Please, throw paladins some love in this department too! I don't even want AC, I want mobility and Ride checks to not be hosed!
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? New feat: Armored Rider ignore armor penalties for ride checks?
Jason, Fighters are getting brutal, they are already passing Paladins up by a long mile, I just made a 9th level Dwarf sword and axe Fighter for Beta test and he has a 29 AC, which is pretty impressive at 9th level.
The armor problem with movement was a neat idea, but it should just be dropped out of hand, and rolled into encumbrance.
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Director of Games
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Please, throw paladins some love in this department too! I don't even want AC, I want mobility and Ride checks to not be hosed!I think I am pretty comfortable with the balance between Dex and Armor bonus, considering that Armor is just about the cheapest way to get an AC bonus.
This is a tradeoff that I am not going to monkey with directly. There are going to be some options (just as there always have been) to circumvent this rule to a limited extent, but I think wide scale changes are not in the picture...
But then again.. maybe the fighter might get another nice perk concerning armor.. involving movement.. but I digress into spoiler territory.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
This is not really the place for this discussion.. but..
No worries.. the paladins getting some love too.. although not the same.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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? New feat: Armored Rider ignore armor penalties for ride checks?
Absolutely! Our poor mounted knights (I'm playing a Ftr/Clr mounted character in a PF playtest campaign) SUCK at riding! :(
The armor problem with movement was a neat idea, but it should just be dropped out of hand, and rolled into encumbrance.
I'd favor this as well.
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I just made a 9th level Dwarf sword and axe Fighter for Beta test and he has a 29 AC, which is pretty impressive at 9th level.
The armor problem with movement was a neat idea, but it should just be dropped out of hand, and rolled into encumbrance.
See i have an 8th lvl fighter and i have AC 28, that is with regular old MW armor. now all i can do is throw money at it to make my AC go up another +5. This is with full plate. at 15-20th lvl is another +5 really gonna cut it? I got eatin' by a hydra tuesday in one turn. did't even get to within 10 feet of it. There has to be something to keep a fighter on his feet long enough to fight these brutal creations. My first choice is always mellee, ranged is ok, but there is no real damage being done. Thank god we had a soceror with max fireball.
And what about the non fighters? they are really SOL at high level. I don't even want to think about sending my monk in there to take a hit at 15th level. Scary.
wrath i was pointing out that at level 7/8 i havve already gone almost as far as you can go with AC. im not even 1/2 way to 20th level.... only magic can help me now, and not even that much.
AC "topping out" at around 30? Umm, no. +5 mithral full plate (+8 armor +5 enhancement +3 Dex= +16), +5 (animated) heavy shield (+2 shield +5 enhancement = +7), amulet of natural armor +5 (+5 natural armor enhancement), and ring of protection +5 (+5 deflection) grant AC 10+16+7+5+5=43 even before factoring in feats, spells, other items, and situational modifiers; mithral chain shirt and mithral breastplate end up at AC 42. Getting an AC of 50+ is absolutely possible using just 3.5 core or PFRPG, although mid-40s is more likely unless fully optimizing for AC. PFRPG fighters can get their AC even higher with Armor Training.
On the movement hit for medium or heavy armor, boots of striding and springing are a relatively inexpensive (5,500gp) way to counteract the penalty (or the slower base movement of a dwarf). If really metagaming/munchkining, take one level of barbarian for the Fast Movement ability (which is untyped, not an enhancement bonus, and stacks with the boots). This is a great option for a dwarf: mithral full plate for maximum AC and a regular movement of 40 ft (with boots), with haste granting the normal 60 ft; (20+10) x 2.
? New feat: Armored Rider ignore armor penalties for ride checks?
Just to point out, the Ride skill already does not apply Armor Check Penalty (see page 70).
Or maybe now it does? The table on page 54 says that Ride applies ACP.
In the SRD, Ride was one of those skills that didn't have ACP.
I've just pointed out this discrepancy in the Errata of the Skills and Feats thread, since ONE of those is obviously wrong (and I personally think it's the little '1' on the table on page 54 that is the wrong one...)
Jason, Fighters are getting brutal, they are already passing Paladins up by a long mile, I just made a 9th level Dwarf sword and axe Fighter for Beta test and he has a 29 AC, which is pretty impressive at 9th level.The armor problem with movement was a neat idea, but it should just be dropped out of hand, and rolled into encumbrance.
As a side note, I've just made a 15th-level Fighter for the High-level playtest... and the AC is 45.
+4 Heavy Steel Shield (16170 gp) plus Shield Focus and Greater Shield Focus (+8)
+4 Full Plate (not Mithral !!!) (17650 gp) plus Armor Training +4 (+16)
Dex 13, plus Belt Dexterity +4 (16000 gp)= 17; thanks to Armor Training +4, he can use all the Dex Bonus (+3)
Amulet Natural Armor +4 (32000 gp) (+4)
Ring Protection +4 (32000 gp) (+4)
Total= AC 45; being a Dwarf, he has 49 vs Giants
A 15th-level character can easily afford all these items (240000 gp)... my character has a Belt of Physical Perfection +4 (64000 gp) instead of a Belt of Dexterity +4, and still enough money to buy a +5 weapon (50000 gp) and a full load of potions (and a Cloak of Protection, too... 16000 gp for a +4 Res to Saves)
So, the Max Dex is fine for me, while movement is the only issue (with 22 Str, this character could easily pack all this steel and still move easily... if the armor would only be in his backpack instead of being on his shoulders!)
Just my 2c...
I would point out that he said Max AC without the use of magic ... his complaint seems to be past this point the only real means he has of enchancing his AC is magic items.
I would point out that he said Max AC without the use of magic ... his complaint seems to be past this point the only real means he has of enchancing his AC is magic items.
That's something inherent in 3e/PF RPG. It's not just a problem for fighters, but for everyone (in fact, I would argue that fighters have less of a problem with it than most other classes, since their AC actually gets a boost dependant on level!)
I agree, after a certain point in levels it is unrealistic to expect a character to not have magical gear. After all Excalibur was a magical sword, as was Beowolf's sword. If you look at the epic examples in fantasy and mythology they have magic items after a point... I think 8~10th level is a good point to represent that threshold.
Enhancement bonuses to medium and heavy armor should increase the offered AC more than the same enhancement bonus on light armor. A +5 chain shirt currently offers +9 to AC - an increase of 125% - while the same enchantment on full plate offers +13 to AC - and increase of 62.5% (essentially 1/2). What if each +1 to medium armor increased AC by +2, and each +1 to heavy armor increased AC by +3? A comparison:
Middle of each category:
+5 Leather: +7 to AC (250% increase in utility)
+5 Scale Mail: +14 to AC (250% increase in utility)
+5 Banded Mail: +21 to AC (250% increase in utility)Top of each category:
+5 Chain Shirt: +9 to AC (125% increase in utility)
+5 Breastplate: +15 to AC (200% increase in utility)
+5 Full Plate: +23 to AC (187.5% increase in utility)
Enhancement is always going to be linear: a +5 is a +5, not +5 for Leather but +15 for Plate. Let's flip this idea around: Why doesn't magical enhancement scale with weapon damage? It's unfair that Greatswords don't get the proportional benefit from a +5 that the dagger gets.
Average damage:
+5 Dagger: 2.5 + 5 = +200%
+5 Shortsword: 3.5 + 5 = +142%
+5 Longsword: 4.5 + 5 = +111%
+5 Greatsword: 5.5 + 5 = +91%
Max damage:
+5 Dagger: 4 + 5 = +125%
+5 Shortsword: 6 + 5 = +84%
+5 Longsword: 8 + 5 = +62%
+5 Greatsword: 10 + 5 = +50%
Oh, pity the poor Greatsword! :p
JB has already said that shield and armor bonuses that improve with feats or class features may be in the works, as well as DR.
I've found unless you specifically have your armor made to what you want to accomplish the Max Dex does hamper you quite a bit, especially with plate on up.
Enhancement bonuses to medium and heavy armor should increase the offered AC more than the same enhancement bonus on light armor. A +5 chain shirt currently offers +9 to AC - an increase of 125% - while the same enchantment on full plate offers +13 to AC - and increase of 62.5% (essentially 1/2). What if each +1 to medium armor increased AC by +2, and each +1 to heavy armor increased AC by +3? A comparison:
Middle of each category:
+5 Leather: +7 to AC (250% increase in utility)
+5 Scale Mail: +14 to AC (250% increase in utility)
+5 Banded Mail: +21 to AC (250% increase in utility)Top of each category:
+5 Chain Shirt: +9 to AC (125% increase in utility)
+5 Breastplate: +15 to AC (200% increase in utility)
+5 Full Plate: +23 to AC (187.5% increase in utility)Enhancement is always going to be linear: a +5 is a +5, not +5 for Leather but +15 for Plate. Let's flip this idea around: Why doesn't magical enhancement scale with weapon damage? It's unfair that Greatswords don't get the proportional benefit from a +5 that the dagger gets.
Average damage:
+5 Dagger: 2.5 + 5 = +200%
+5 Shortsword: 3.5 + 5 = +142%
+5 Longsword: 4.5 + 5 = +111%
+5 Greatsword: 5.5 + 5 = +91%Max damage:
+5 Dagger: 4 + 5 = +125%
+5 Shortsword: 6 + 5 = +84%
+5 Longsword: 8 + 5 = +62%
+5 Greatsword: 10 + 5 = +50%Oh, pity the poor Greatsword! :p
JB has already said that shield and armor bonuses that improve with feats or class features may be in the works, as well as DR.
IVe always liked the idea of the "uberpower" of the magic dagger.
Often I see (and have been) the fighter that dropped his master work long sword because he found a +3 dagger. For rogues its awesome.
I think I am pretty comfortable with the balance between Dex and Armor bonus, considering that Armor is just about the cheapest way to get an AC bonus.
This is a tradeoff that I am not going to monkey with directly. There are going to be some options (just as there always have been) to circumvent this rule to a limited extent, but I think wide scale changes are not in the picture...
But then again.. maybe the fighter might get another nice perk concerning armor.. involving movement.. but I digress into spoiler territory.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
So your saying that the AC type that is the easiest to bypass, grants a max dex, speed and skill penalties, AND costs 3 feats is worth while; ok nvm. You have your perspective.
But think of this, it is the cheapest because it is the easiest to bypass. Incorporeal, large strength, true strike, the list goes on.
I personally can see max dex staying, but all other minus would need to go for all melee types. Then it might, and I stress might, be worth the feats to get it. Other wise your getting feats for worse options, not balanced ones, which hurts the flavor of wanting to wear heavy armor.
P.S. You can fix this all you want with class features, but that requires giving the same treatment to every single new armored class you create, or PrC that might need it as well.
P.P.S. This will also hurt backwards compatibility if you care about that any more
I am going to make this simple.
With heavy armor specificlly heavy armor for most classes, except fighter, becomes useless as characters who start with a dex of 10 will most likely outgrow full plate, and even mithral full plate with +5 books, and +6 enhancement item possible. With medium armor this is somewhat a problem too.
So how is my paladin and other non core classes going to deal with this?
Well, Paladins has buffs to compensate for that and he sure can find some other stats to dump 110k to 137.5K gp for a +4 or +5 book into. ;)
With 10 Dex and a +6 Belt of Physical Perfection/Might he can get the full benefit from a Mithral Full Plate.
This is high level play, and Books even for secondary stats become a factor.
Jason, here is an idea.
Instead of patch-working every single class in the game that likes using armor, why not fix the feats to be proficient with the armor to begin with. Make the feats actually worth taking.
If you have a problem with casters and others getting too much form them, base the benefit off of base attack bonus.
How about this?
Reducing Armor check penalty.
Light: ignore all.
Medium and heavy: 1 per 3 Base attack
Improving Max Dex.
Light: 1 per 3 base attack
Medium/Heavy: 1 per 5 base attack
Ignoring speed penalty.
Medium: 5ft per 4 base attack
Heavy: 5ft per 6 base attack
These numbers are arbitary, but the grouping of medium and light armors are not. Notice the grouping together and seperation on different subjects.
Armor check penalty and Max Dex, is the same for medium and heavy due to heavies having much more, but it is also a 3rd tear feat.
Speed is a very powerful ability, and fluff/logic is an issue so they can not be the same, plus medium armor has always needed to be 15ft movement to start.
Jason, here is an idea.
Instead of patch-working every single class in the game that likes using armor, why not fix the feats to be proficient with the armor to begin with. Make the feats actually worth taking.
If you have a problem with casters and others getting too much form them, base the benefit off of base attack bonus.
How about this?
Reducing Armor check penalty.
Light: ignore all.
Medium and heavy: 1 per 3 Base attackImproving Max Dex.
Light: 1 per 3 base attack
Medium/Heavy: 1 per 5 base attackIgnoring speed penalty.
Medium: 5ft per 4 base attack
Heavy: 5ft per 6 base attackThese numbers are arbitary, but the grouping of medium and light armors are not. Notice the grouping together and seperation on different subjects.
Armor check penalty and Max Dex, is the same for medium and heavy due to heavies having much more, but it is also a 3rd tear feat.
Speed is a very powerful ability, and fluff/logic is an issue so they can not be the same, plus medium armor has always needed to be 15ft movement to start.
the fighter needs class feature the other do not get.
What do you give up being a paladin? The Paladin is basically a core PrC of the fighter. Why should it be able to do everything the fighter can, and then do more?
The Fighter specializes in his tools (weapons and armor) the paladins tool are faith and piety, so he is not the best with weapons and armor.
The cleric has spells, and well who else really wears armor that heavy to worry about dex penalties beside those three?
Barb losses abilities at medium. Ranger looses more abilites if above light.
Rogue and arcane classes arent to swell if they wear above light.
I suppose you could have a bard with plate armor and arcane armor training, but its be a little weird.
So you are really just looking at cleric and paladin who can already buff themselves and cast spells, the fighter cannot. As a result, the fighter needed something that was specific to the class.
Thats what he got.
This is pretty typical, as soon as the fighter gets something, that players of other classes want, they cry foul and think they should get it too. That's what I fear will happen with some of the new feats if they are fighter specific.
Once you start getting enchanted armor the problem exacerbates a little, because a +1 leather suit of armor increases in utility from providing a +2 to a +3 - a 50% increase in usefulness - while a +1 suit of banded mail rises from +6 to +7 - a 16.67% increase in usefulness.
This is an illusion.
Consider an orc trying to hit you. The orc is +2 to his attack rolls.
You put on that leather armor and you have AC 12. The orc needs a 10 to hit you. You enchant the leather armor to AC 13 and now the orc needs an 11 to hit you. His chances went from 55% to 50%.
You put on the banded mail for an ac 16. The orc needs a 14 to hit you. You enchant that banded mail to AC 17 and now the orc needs a 15 to hit you. His chances went from 35% to 30%.
In both cases the orc lost 5% chance to hit you.
To put it in your terms of expressing it as a relative percentage:
In leather, adding the +1 enchantment protects you from 9% of the orc's successful attacks.
In banded, adding the +1 enchantment protects you from 14% of the orc's successful attacks.
As you can hopefully now see, the +1 enchantment offers more protection on banded armor than it does on leather armor.
So, I propose the following:Movement penalties for medium and heavy armor apply when there is no proficiency. But proficiency removes the movement penalty for tactical movement. I have no problem with running penalties, but I don't think walking or hustling should be seriously impeded by well made armor. Maybe a time limit of a number of minutes of combat equal to the character's constitution modifier before they become fatigued...?
Why track that? Anyone who wears heavy armor probably has at least average, and most likely above average CON. I cannot remember a time in my life when I have had a combat last 100+ rounds. I doubt I have had an adventuring day with 100+ rounds in the entire day spread out over many combats.
Armor check penalties should be removed or lessened for skills the armor wearer is trained in. In my feats proposals much earlier, I suggested that for every 3 ranks a character has in a skill, the armor check penalty for armor the character is proficient in would drop by 1 point. Thus a paladin with 6 ranks in ride and wearing Full Plate would suffer a penalty of 4, not 6, on Ride checks. The same paladin with 3 ranks in Swim would suffer an armor check penalty of 10 on his swim checks (this appeals to the simulationist in me - heavy armor should make swimming hard or impossible). I like this solution because the penalty only lessens for those things the character is willing to invest resources in - and it becomes worthwhile to spend skill points in skills like Ride and Acrobatics again for the armored character.
That's a lot of bookkeeping. I don't know that the Armor Check Penalty is the issue with armor.
Instead of making it automagic with leveling, I think this ability should come with feats (or specific class abilities) that represent additional training someone can undergo to get more mobile in heavier armors.
Enhancement bonuses to medium and heavy armor should increase the offered AC more than the same enhancement bonus on light armor. A +5 chain shirt currently offers +9 to AC - an increase of 125% - while the same enchantment on full plate offers +13 to AC - and increase of 62.5% (essentially 1/2). What if each +1 to medium armor increased AC by +2, and each +1 to heavy armor increased AC by +3? A comparison:Middle of each category:
+5 Leather: +7 to AC (250% increase in utility)
+5 Scale Mail: +14 to AC (250% increase in utility)
+5 Banded Mail: +21 to AC (250% increase in utility)Top of each category:
+5 Chain Shirt: +9 to AC (125% increase in utility)
+5 Breastplate: +15 to AC (200% increase in utility)
+5 Full Plate: +23 to AC (187.5% increase in utility)
As I demonstrated above, +1 on heavy armor is more protection than +1 on light armor, so this proposed mechanic will thoroughly break the armor system rather than fix anything.
I would also like to say that I realize this hurts the fighter's armor training class feature quite a bit - because he's no longer gaining back movement and losing skill penalties - but I thought the class feature was a bad idea - not because fighters don't deserve more AC, but because it prevents other characters that depend on the same things (Paladins especially!) from using them to their full effect.
I disagree. I think the class feature is a good idea.
As I said above, I think reducing armor check penalties should be the realm of feats or specific class abilities, so the paladin could gain the feat too, if it's important enough to him.
Jason, here is an idea.
Instead of patch-working every single class in the game that likes using armor, why not fix the feats to be proficient with the armor to begin with. Make the feats actually worth taking.
If you have a problem with casters and others getting too much form them, base the benefit off of base attack bonus.
How about this?
Reducing Armor check penalty.
Light: ignore all.
Medium and heavy: 1 per 3 Base attackImproving Max Dex.
Light: 1 per 3 base attack
Medium/Heavy: 1 per 5 base attackIgnoring speed penalty.
Medium: 5ft per 4 base attack
Heavy: 5ft per 6 base attackThese numbers are arbitary, but the grouping of medium and light armors are not. Notice the grouping together and seperation on different subjects.
Armor check penalty and Max Dex, is the same for medium and heavy due to heavies having much more, but it is also a 3rd tear feat.
Speed is a very powerful ability, and fluff/logic is an issue so they can not be the same, plus medium armor has always needed to be 15ft movement to start.
the fighter needs class feature the other do not get.
What do you give up being a paladin? The Paladin is basically a core PrC of the fighter. Why should it be able to do everything the fighter can, and then do more?
The Fighter specializes in his tools (weapons and armor) the paladins tool are faith and piety, so he is not the best with weapons and armor.
The cleric has spells, and well who else really wears armor that heavy to worry about dex penalties beside those three?
Barb losses abilities at medium. Ranger looses more abilites if above light.
Rogue and arcane classes arent to swell if they wear above light.
I suppose you could have a bard with plate armor and arcane armor training, but its be a little weird.So you are really just looking at cleric and paladin who can already buff themselves and cast spells, the fighter cannot. As a result, the fighter needed something that was specific to the class....
I never said anything about taking something away from the fighter. I personally think the fighter should still be better, however this doesn't change the fact that max dex of armor seems too restrictive in higher levels making the feats you spent on them next to useless.
However, you are completely incorrect about barbarain's and medium armor, as it is heavy that they lose their abilities.
I am all for improving the fighter above others in this area, however this doesn't change the fact that these feats become useless and more of a restriction in the higher levels where even a character with a dex of 10 can outgrow a mythral full plate.
You SERIOUSLY need to step back and chill out. I DO NOT like people putting words in my mouth just be cause they IMAGINE some attack on something they are sensitive about.
P.S. In the end all I am saying is that armor's max dex is a problem in the higher levels making the feats you have/or spent on useless as you are forced into lighter armor to take full use of the more useful dex AC.
P.P.S. This isn't just about the paladin and cleric ether, this is about other fully armored characters for future classes and cross compatibility with 3.5.
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Why track that? Anyone who wears heavy armor probably has at least average, and most likely above average CON. I cannot remember a time in my life when I have had a combat last 100+ rounds. I doubt I have had an adventuring day with 100+ rounds in the entire day spread out over many combats.
So, I propose the following:
Movement penalties for medium and heavy armor apply when there is no proficiency. But proficiency removes the movement penalty for tactical movement. I have no problem with running penalties, but I don't think walking or hustling should be seriously impeded by well made armor. Maybe a time limit of a number of minutes of combat equal to the character's constitution modifier before they become fatigued...?
Eh, mostly just to take into effect the whole "running as long as a lightly armored character". A character should be able to move full speed if their armor is of reasonable quality and they are trained to handle its weight. But I can imagine simulationists getting upset over the idea that a guy in plate can fight for 30 minutes without suffering more penalties to his ability to keep fighting than the guy wearing leather. It would only come up VERY rarely in actual combat - but would provide a mechanic for certain tactics - like fighting the blackguard and trying to make him fatigued by employing hit and run tactics in a highly mobile party. :)
As for armor check penalties...
The three classes gaining heavy armor proficiency are:
Cleric, Fighter, Paladin.
They each have only two skill points / level.
Cleric doesn't care, he never had skill points to spend on physical abilities anyway, if he wanted to cast spells. he's got a little more skill point freedom now with the consolidation of spellcraft and concentration.
Paladin probably only cares because it interferes with the Ride skill. His ability to use one of his iconic class abilities - his holy mount - is seriously compromised by his class no needing dexterity and desperately needing at least 3 other stats, and the armor check penalties he will suffer to his ride check if using heavy armor and a shield. This is...well, tragic. My paladin player wanted a mount, but can't afford to bring her ride check into the positive numbers. That sucks.
Fighter suffers because almost all of his class skills are:
affected by ACP
Not consolidated into a fewer number of skills
Only useful rarely anyway, and almost never useful outside of combat
I want the defensive fighter to not be a crappy option.
But the linear growth of attacks vs. the lack of growth in armor and defense means the only type of meleer you can be is one who does massive damage as soon as possible, ignoring their own injuries - because anything else is impossible to play for more than 1 round at high level.
I didn't really like my solution to enchanting heavy armor because it keeps upping the power level. But I wanted to find a way to make armor a better option than being a nonarmored combatant. Armor should offer advantages in combat as well as costs - not just costs that so rapidly outstrip the benefits you never see a protective, defensive, high level fighter / paladin type.
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Full plate +4, plus full plate armor teaining for another +3? +15 AC, thats alot. And that doesn't even add in the +3 to dex. I think that scales very well. A light armor character really has to strive to take advantage of that plus +3 dex, and take a serious penalty to damage. it is a trade off. but a semi fair one. The light and heavy fighter end with about as much AC, but the Heavy does a ton more damage. a 15th level fighter in fullplate, can easily get a 45AC (But that is about the limit of AC without spells/potions).
Side note, the pal. and Cleric only have 2 skill points, but are compensated by a ton of cool spells. Where is the fighters compensation in skill points? A fighter is supposed to be a battle comander, but he can barely do anything, much less look up the history of epic battles.