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A couple of things on poisons. First from a playing perspective the new system is nice in that I don't have to remember to remake a poison save a minute later for any PC who failed a save. (Our group did all too often forget this second save.) However there are a couple of things I'd like to see.
First, Antidotes. I would like some kind of rule set for antidotes (maybe a line in each poison section about a kind of plant or mineral or whatever {this is a fantasy game after all} that maybe stops said poison without needing to succeed on a Fortitude save. Second I would like to see some different poisons with longer onset durations. (I'm talking a couple of hours to a couple of days.)
I've always thought a fun idea for a low-level intrigue adventure would be to have an important NPC that the PCs need something from getting poisoned at a big social gathering. There are no clerics of high enough level to cast Neutralize Poison who could reach the NPC in time. The PCs have to find who poisoned the NPC in order to find out what poison was used, then the PCs have to search for the antidote. I know right now I could have a Delay Poison used to buy the PCs the time to investigate and have the villian have a potion of Neutralize Poison but it would be nice if I didn't have to depend on that. (I'd rather leave that as a way to extend the time frame of the adventure if they are having trouble finding either the antidote or the assassin.)
Sorry if this doesn't make as much sense as it does in my head...been one of those days where I have trouble communicating my thoughts clearly.
Another request on poisons: Costs, please.
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Please include an easy conversion guide for translating 3.5 poisons that weren't in core to Pathfinder RPG.
Also, some different effects besides ability damage would be nice. Stun, fatigue, nauseous, all of these would be great to have with poisons. I know players get tired of the ability damage at times.
Lastly, each poison hardly does anything with the initial effect now. I would think most poisons need *at least* two saves before the effect wears off. There were some that used to be able to do 1d6 on the initial hit that now do just a base 2 if the guy makes his second save, only getting up to the original 6 if the guy fails three saves in a row. That's a big chop from 1-6 initially and 1-6 secondary, or thereabouts.
Also, some different effects besides ability damage would be nice. Stun, fatigue, nauseous, all of these would be great to have with poisons. I know players get tired of the ability damage at times.
Seconded. Please... something OTHER than oh gee 1d6 con or 1d4 dex or 1d8 str... blah blah boring blah. There are all of these neat conditions, why not have poisons inflict various much more interesting conditions?
Here's my problem with poisons (and diseases as well): the DCs dont present a challenge. For example, arsenic, which is supposed to be a DEADLY poison, has a DC of 13, which a character of 4th level (it's listed as a 4th-level poison) should have no problem making. And as levels go up, the problem only gets worse. My solution (one I've instituted in my game) is that poisons, diseases, and environmental effects (heat, smoke, etc.) require Constitution checks instead of Fortitude saves. This makes them avoidable, but still dangerous.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Here's my problem with poisons (and diseases as well): the DCs dont present a challenge. For example, arsenic, which is supposed to be a DEADLY poison, has a DC of 13, which a character of 4th level (it's listed as a 4th-level poison) should have no problem making. And as levels go up, the problem only gets worse. My solution (one I've instituted in my game) is that poisons, diseases, and environmental effects (heat, smoke, etc.) require Constitution checks instead of Fortitude saves. This makes them avoidable, but still dangerous.
I don't think this is unrealistic. That is for one dose. There's lots of documented cases where victims of arsenic poisoning have anywhere from 2-10 times the leathal dose in their system (and sometimes are still alive in the hospital). Remember, the poison stats in the game are for one dose. If you're poisoning someone with arsenic, you can put one dose in every drink they take, and every meal, thus requireing them to make many saves over the course of a day. This is going to kill Joe Commoner pretty quick.
Even a 4th level character won't make their saves that reliably vs DC 13. Assuming a poor fort save, they'd have a save bonus of +1 base +2 Con maybe for a +3 total? That's a 45% failure chance. For a good fort save it becomes +4 base and maybe +3 from Con for a +7. This means they still have a 25% failure vs. DC 13.
I thought the entries were difficult to read. For example:
Striped Toadstool
Level 4 poison, ingested; Save Fortitude DC 11
Effects
Frequency 1 round (5); Effect 1 Wis damage/2 Wis damage
plus 1 Int damage; Cure 1 save
There is no advice on how to use Level. I thought it might be used to determine cost, but found no mention of cost. I thought it might be like spell level, until I noticed some above level 9, when I wondered if it meant CR.
EDIT: Sorry, I missed the section on Afflictions.
I was confused about how to tease out initial and secondary effects. It's not immediately obvious that a dash (/) separates initial and secondary, or that the number (5) in parentheses is the frequency limit. Also, does "Cure 1 save" apply to the initial or the secondary effect? Or does a save against the initial effect preclude the secondary effect? How does this work with frequency? Do I roll up to 5 saves, stopping after the first successful save? Does the secondary effect apply repeatedly to saves 2 through 5 and the initial effect apply only to the 1st save? It seems to me that initial and secondary could each have their own save, frequency, limit, effect, and cure.
I miss the table layout of the 3.5 DMG poisons (except for the fact that it was not alphabetized; thanks for fixing that!). I appreciate that each poison entry now has more information, so I'm OK with each poison getting its own block, like a spell. However, spells get one-line descriptions by level, and I think a similar one-line summary of poisons might be helpful.
Finally, I have to gripe about the visual clutter of the horizontal lines above and below the "Effect" sub-headers. Can we lose those please? I have the same gripe about spell descriptions. The final layout would be much easier on the eyes without them. If people really like the separation they provide, it could be done more gently with a bar of slightly different background color under "Effect" (between where the two lines are now, only without the lines).
Does anyone find it odd that poison descriptions appear in the Glossary?
I find the best thing about the new poison descriptions is the absolute ease it is to create your own new poisons, that could do most anything, and describe them well.
I thought the entries were difficult to read. For example:
Striped Toadstool
Level 4 poison, ingested; Save Fortitude DC 11
Effects
Frequency 1 round (5); Effect 1 Wis damage/2 Wis damage
plus 1 Int damage; Cure 1 saveThere is no advice on how to use Level. I thought it might be used to determine cost, but found no mention of cost. I thought it might be like spell level, until I noticed some above level 9, when I wondered if it meant CR.
This I'm not sure - it might be simply "appropriate level to use against PCs" - something like CR.
The rest is all explained in the text about afflictions.
I was confused about how to tease out initial and secondary effects. It's not immediately obvious that a dash (/) separates initial and secondary, or that the number (5) in parentheses is the frequency limit. Also, does "Cure 1 save" apply to the initial or the secondary effect? Or does a save against the initial effect preclude the secondary effect?
The cure applies to all saves. Yes, a save against initial precludes secondary if Cure is '1 save'.
How does this work with frequency? Do I roll up to 5 saves, stopping after the first successful save?
Yes.
Does the secondary effect apply repeatedly to saves 2 through 5 and the initial effect apply only to the 1st save?
Yes.
It seems to me that initial and secondary could each have their own save, frequency, limit, effect, and cure.
*wince* That'd be a lot, but: Yes, there are some with their own frequencies (and effects of course). Just put a slash on the save and you'd have it for that too. I can't see it on cure though - that'd be a bit counter to the whole idea of cure.
I miss the table layout of the 3.5 DMG poisons (except for the fact that it was not alphabetized; thanks for fixing that!). I appreciate that each poison entry now has more information, so I'm OK with each poison getting its own block, like a spell. However, spells get one-line descriptions by level, and I think a similar one-line summary of poisons might be helpful.
I like the new info too. I don't understand about the one-line description.
Finally, I have to gripe about the visual clutter of the horizontal lines above and below the "Effect" sub-headers. Can we lose those please? I have the same gripe about spell descriptions. The final layout would be much easier on the eyes without them. If people really like the separation they provide, it could be done more gently with a bar of slightly different background color under "Effect" (between where the two lines are now, only without the lines).
I think they have adjusted the look (not certain) - take a look at the Magic Item rules for an example.
The rest is all explained in the text about afflictions.
My bad, in my hurry to read about poisons, I missed the section on Afflictions. (Ugh, sorry).
I don't understand about the one-line description.
I was thinking of an alphabetized table with one line per poison.
EDIT (added the following):
It seems to me that initial and secondary could each have their own save, frequency, limit, effect, and cure.*wince* That'd be a lot, but: Yes, there are some with their own frequencies (and effects of course). Just put a slash on the save and you'd have it for that too. I can't see it on cure though - that'd be a bit counter to the whole idea of cure
I was thinking that even if you make the save against the initial effect, you could still miss the save against the secondary effect. That's different than requiring two consecutive saves, which appears to be the closest alternative to "Cure 1 save" in the new system. I may be missing the whole idea.
1) Is there a better way to handle poisons out of combat? If a thief gets poisoned by a trap, do we need to sit and make roll after roll after roll?
That sounds like it could be kind of fun, adding a bit of urgency. Digging around in packs for anti-toxin, calling the cleric over to give a Heal check, drinking a healing potion as you feel your Con score slipping away...
I was thinking that even if you make the save against the initial effect, you could still miss the save against the secondary effect. That's different than requiring two consecutive saves, which appears to be the closest alternative to "Cure 1 save" in the new system. I may be missing the whole idea.
Ohhh.. you're right, you're right. Cure 2 saves would be consecutive, I forgot that.
I'd say we could use a new descriptor for "2 nonconsecutive saves". Otherwise that would be much too deadly.
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Here's my problem with poisons (and diseases as well): the DCs dont present a challenge. For example, arsenic, which is supposed to be a DEADLY poison, has a DC of 13, which a character of 4th level (it's listed as a 4th-level poison) should have no problem making. And as levels go up, the problem only gets worse. My solution (one I've instituted in my game) is that poisons, diseases, and environmental effects (heat, smoke, etc.) require Constitution checks instead of Fortitude saves. This makes them avoidable, but still dangerous.
Although I initially hated this idea in 4E, I've had time to think it over and now I actually like it: in addition to Ability Damage, what if each poison would also cause HP damage? For example: 1D6 per level of the poison (Arsenic, as a 4th level poison would inflict 4D6) That way even simple poisons would once again pose a more serious threat to all "commoners", and yet posing even a mild threat to the PCs? At the moment, that -1 to CON per failed save is just an annoyance (but still a more elegant solution than 2D6/3D6 CON or STR damage in 3E) but with HP damage added in they would work far better, I think.
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quest-master raises an interesting point. I think that poison's DCs should scale with how many doses you have had, instead of simply relying on the rationale that a character will eventually fail one of their saves. Here's what I propose: Every poison has a "detox" time. (We can worry about a better name later). For every dose of poison after the first that a character receives in the detox time period, the save DC of the poison goes up by 1 from whatever value it was previously saved at. For example, lets say arsenic has a detox time of one week. King Bob is slipped some arsenic in his mead, but he makes the DC 13 save and is no worse for wear. Three days later, he is slipped some more, and the DC goes up to 14. This time, he saves once again. Five days later, he is given another dose. His DC goes up to 15, and he fails. If it doesn't kill him, and he is given another dose within the next week, the save DC will go up to 16, adding one to the previous DC.
Just some food for thought.
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My main problem with the new poison rules is that it's just too easy to shrug off without any effect. I'm gona run with some thing like a +x to the save difficulty, where X is the number of saves left before the poison wears off. That way there is a high chance for some damage, but low chance for a lot of damage.
Although I initially hated this idea in 4E, I've had time to think it over and now I actually like it: in addition to Ability Damage, what if each poison would also cause HP damage? For example: 1D6 per level of the poison (Arsenic, as a 4th level poison would inflict 4D6) That way even simple poisons would once again pose a more serious threat to all "commoners", and yet posing even a mild threat to the PCs? At the moment, that -1 to CON per failed save is just an annoyance (but still a more elegant solution than 2D6/3D6 CON or STR damage in 3E) but with HP damage added in they would work far better, I think.I can see hp damage for necrotoxins (which I would like to see as an option for vermin and snakes). In the worse cases, damage from Necrotoxins should be Str and Con drain. Without medical (or magical) treatment, the effects of these poisons would be horrible. Necrotoxins require both an antitoxin and antibotics, and sometimes, maggot therapy to prevent the spread.
Neurotoxins rarely harm the body directly. They typically kill by stopping the heart or lungs. More often, depending on the dose, the cause muscle cramps and paralysis (Str damage). A large dose, should inflict Con damage as well. Perhaps if the target's Str is reduced to 0, any addational damage is Con damage?
Remove the 1 always fails for poisons and I'm fine with making poisons deadlier thus more expensive or it's use in the world of NPCs/PCs very rare or sanctioned in ingame terms.
SOD-conditions are the real problem here since a poison dripping archer quickly gains many opportunities to get you role a saving throw. When these poisons don't have the chance to come in effect by the role of 1 this archer has to buy the expensive stuff. Sounds good for me.
Poisons shouldn't be too realistic, when game balance is in danger.
Although I initially hated this idea in 4E, I've had time to think it over and now I actually like it: in addition to Ability Damage, what if each poison would also cause HP damage? For example: 1D6 per level of the poison (Arsenic, as a 4th level poison would inflict 4D6) That way even simple poisons would once again pose a more serious threat to all "commoners", and yet posing even a mild threat to the PCs? At the moment, that -1 to CON per failed save is just an annoyance (but still a more elegant solution than 2D6/3D6 CON or STR damage in 3E) but with HP damage added in they would work far better, I think.
Not my quote.
I too would like to see stronger rules for poisons and diseases. For a game that often as Gods, Demons, and other powers completely devoted to poisons or diseases these are both surprisingly weak within the game rules.
Please get more creative with these subjects. For example lycanthropy as a disease is a virus that terns an otherwise normal person into a savage half-man half-beast monster. Now that's a Disease!
Also for poisons if I remember my Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde correctly didn't Dr Jekyll basicly create a poison/drug that turned the nice NG Dr. Jekyll into a heartless CE Mr. Hyde.
Just some thoughts.
I consider poison too weak and make the number of rolls needed to cure 3 or 4 - so they will have some negative effect.
I like the idea of wierder poisons/disease, nausea, blurred vision (miss chance), bleeding from orifices (eeww), ringing in the ears (deafness) + confusion, etc
Not my quote.
I apologize. I did not catch my misquoting until it was to late to edit my post.
just a thought...
for a poison/disease to always be dangerous, regardless of level,
make it a Con check instead of Fort save
only bonus being a specific bonus vs poison and/or disease
just a thought...
for a poison/disease to always be dangerous, regardless of level,
make it a Con check instead of Fort save
only bonus being a specific bonus vs poison and/or disease
I agree. Poison should be almost equally dangerous across all levels. That way everyone has to be careful when dealing with poisons. Make it a Con check - I agree.
One thing: can we PLEASE get some poisons that might actually be fatal to the average 1st level Commoner? Pathetic Pete the Peon (Con 11, Fort +0) cannot die from the deathblade poison on an assassin's dagger, even if he fails all 5 saves. That's just sad.
I think I'm just going to nix the cure line on the poisons. That way, it doesn't matter if you make your save, you have to make all of the saves. The poison must run it's course, or you need some anti-toxin or magic. Maybe not for Drow poison, though...
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Bastion Press came out with "Pale Designs: A Poisoner's Handbook" some time ago. It introduced an alt variant poison system.
Their system goes like this: A PC gets hit with poison (lets use wyvern poison) and must make a save or suffer 2d6 Con damage. One minute later, the PC must make another save by the DC is 2 higher. If he fails he takes 2d6 Con AND he takes hit point damage starting at 28 hp that round (according to their chart-system). Next round the PC takes 27, and then 26, and 25 etc...
What I would propose is a hybrid of their system. Each poison would have a starting hp damage value like theirs, but one save. If a PC makes the save, the damage starts at half the value, so in the case of the wyvern damage it would be 14 and go down until the posin runs its course thru the body.....
I agree poisons as they stand now, well are weak. The Bastion Press system seems a bit much to have ability damage AND hit point damage, but it definitely would scare the Hell out of PCs more...
But look what happens with both Con Damage and hp damage...
First their max HP drops like a stone, then he dies from the hp damage dealt to him. It's something that happens any time CON damage is done, however adding it to poisons takes them a step above what they are now, namely an add on to some other type of encounter.
Someone started compiling a bunch of D&D poison info here: (link). One of the sources mentioned is "The Toxins of Cerilon : Dragon Compendium Vol I page 167". I recall some poisons in that article that caused status effects, so it might be worth a look (sadly I no longer have my old magazine copy).
I was thinking about Striped Toadstool. Since it's a mushroom, wouldn't it be neat if it caused hallucination? I'm not sure how that would play as a status effect, other than confusion. I think that's how the myconid's hallucination effect worked in the old A4: Dungeons of the Slave Lords. It would be nice to have several mind-affecting poisons. Striped Toadstool almost sounds like something fey, rather than underworld. Perhaps it could affect you with delusion, like the cursed item condition in the 3.5e DMG, making you believe the effects of a randomly determined spell. Or it could induce clumsiness like the cursed Ring of Clumsiness, adding a 20% chance of spell failure to spells with a somatic component.
Since many are complaining that poisons are too weak, some secondary effects could have higher save DCs for more limited ability damage, so even higher level characters are unlikely to ignore the poison completely. That way, even if an initial effect of something like d6 ability damage is ineffective, a single point of ability damage might still get you later with a +5 (or higher) DC adjustment. In other words, the secondary effect could do something like a spell's partial save effect, as opposed to "negates (harmless)".
I think I'm just going to nix the cure line on the poisons. That way, it doesn't matter if you make your save, you have to make all of the saves. The poison must run it's course, or you need some anti-toxin or magic. Maybe not for Drow poison, though...
Many afflictions already have a "-" value for Cure. I was also thinking that some poisons might require repeated saves for the entire Frequency limit, regardless of past success. So just replace "Cure 1 save" with "Cure - " (I don't know why the Cure property isn't just omitted in that case. It would be easy to say that "Cure - " is the default behavior). I like how the Cure property lets you do something in between if you want to, like "Cure 2 saves" (although there should also be a way to specify whether or not saves must be consecutive - I would say non-consecutive is the default and "consecutive" has to be specified).
Here's an example of a rather more detailed poison description that would require saves for secondary effects by default, regardless of success against initial effects, but still lets you specify a dependency on the initial effect to ignore the secondary effect:
Striped Toadstool
Level 4 poison, ingested
-------------------------------
Initial
-------------------------------
Save Fortitude DC 12; Frequency 1 round; Limit 3; Effect 1-2 Wis damage
-------------------------------
Secondary
-------------------------------
Save Fortitude DC 15; Onset 1 minute; Effect 1 Wis damage, 1 Int damage
-------------------------------
Final
-------------------------------
Requires 3 or more Wis damage Save Will DC 12; Frequency 10 minutes; Effect Confusion; Cure 2 consecutive saves; Aftereffect Heal 1-3 Wis damage
(end of description)
Here's how such a description works:
Stages: The onset time of each stage is counted from the onset of the previous stage (or the moment of exposure to the affliction if there is no previous stage). It is possible for the Onset of one stage to coincide with the ongoing effects of a previous stage (possibly requiring multiple simultaneous saves). If one stage Requires an effect or partial effect from a previous stage, then the onset is delayed until the previous stage ends. An affliction progresses through one of the following bracketed combinations of stages:
[Final]
[Initial, Secondary]
[Initial, Secondary, Final]
Onset: Time before a save is needed to avoid the onset of the effect. Default: use Frequency (immediate if no Frequency is specified).
Frequency: Same as Onset except that the save is required repeatedly, up to Limit number of save attempts, or until the Cure condition is satisfied. Default: use Onset (immediate if no Onset is specified).
Limit: Limits the number of save attempts before a Cure is no longer needed. Limit is used only with Frequency, since Onset implies Limit 1. Default: no limit, or 1 if Onset specified.
Requires: A dependency on an effect or partial effect from a previous stage, allowing you to ignore the effect of the current stage if the condition is not satisfied. Default: no dependency.
Aftereffect: Automatic after the Effect ends (either by Limit or Cure), but only if the effect was experienced at least once.
Probably too much detail, but it gives you a lot of control over the exact behavior of the poison. Maybe there's a usable idea there somewhere... I do like the fact that the initial effect can apply to more than just the first save when the Frequency limit allows more than two saves. It seems arbitrary (and therefore confusing) to say that 5 saves can be broken up only one way between initial and secondary effects.
Cost and Antitoxin should also be included (probably after the Level property). Antitoxin costs and other details could be listed separately, and ideally no one antitoxin would work against a majority of poisons.
My house-rule in 3.5 was to leave the save DCs and damage as is, but the save is for half damage; rounded down, so zero damage was still a possibility.
The real problem for me was that the weak DCs made it so that no matter how many times a PC got bit, there was almost never any poison effect. Not to bring reality into a fantasy genre, but when a snake or spider bites something, there is always some amount of poison injected.
I made it so that if you got bit or stung or whatever, there was usually at least some damage. Unless the poisoned creature had the feature mettle, which allowed a save for no damage.
This made poison much deadlier, and poisonous creatures were to be avoided and mostly got attacked from range. Food and drink provided by strangers and the untrustworthy usually got tested or had detect poison and or purify food and water spells cast. Tactics and behavior of the PCs changed to avoid getting poisoned.
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My house-rule in 3.5 was to leave the save DCs and damage as is, but the save is for half damage; rounded down, so zero damage was still a possibility.
The real problem for me was that the weak DCs made it so that no matter how many times a PC got bit, there was almost never any poison effect. Not to bring reality into a fantasy genre, but when a snake or spider bites something, there is always some amount of poison injected.
Making it a staged effect, where you take full damage if you fail the save, but have to make the save by X to take *no* damage, could be a solution.
If the poison potentially does 6 pts of Con damage, perhaps making the DC exactly means that you only take 5 pts of Con damage, and for each extra point you make the DC, you take off another point of damage.
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My house-rule in 3.5 was to leave the save DCs and damage as is, but the save is for half damage; rounded down, so zero damage was still a possibility.
The real problem for me was that the weak DCs made it so that no matter how many times a PC got bit, there was almost never any poison effect. Not to bring reality into a fantasy genre, but when a snake or spider bites something, there is always some amount of poison injected.
I made it so that if you got bit or stung or whatever, there was usually at least some damage. Unless the poisoned creature had the feature mettle, which allowed a save for no damage.
This made poison much deadlier, and poisonous creatures were to be avoided and mostly got attacked from range. Food and drink provided by strangers and the untrustworthy usually got tested or had detect poison and or purify food and water spells cast. Tactics and behavior of the PCs changed to avoid getting poisoned.
I like this, but a lot of poisons now do 1 damage a round, so it doesn't really work because we are back to no damage on a save, I think I like the idea of removing cure 1 from the poison, it requires at least two succesful saves to be healed from poison.
I know in my game kythons got a lot less deadly because both me and the other guy were playing high fort characters and when the poison did one damage a round and had a save of about 13 we would maybe take one or two poison damage a fight and we never really worried about it like we should have. 3rd level characters facing poisonous monsters (str poison at that) should be very worried, not mildly anxious, hell, I don't even think we were mildly anxious. Even when we failed a save it was like, oops theres a mild annoyance, 1 str damage, oh well, it's not like I'll fail twice in a row.
Even when we failed a save it was like, oops theres a mild annoyance, 1 str damage, oh well, it's not like I'll fail twice in a row.
This is the way I feel in my campaign. I think that forcing the pc to make every save, regardless of successes, will give poisons the potency they need. I also like the idea of having multiple doses "aid another" so you only make one save each round, but at a higher dc. This would give them that "Joe Commoner-killing edge" they're lacking.
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Im firmly in the KISS camp (Keep it simple stupid) and the suggestion to make it a Con check vs the DC only adding in the save bonu's particularly geared toward poison or diesease is by far the easiest solution that will keep even high level characters eyeing that green goo on the blade of the assassin.
I like it.
Im firmly in the KISS camp (Keep it simple stupid) and the suggestion to make it a Con check vs the DC only adding in the save bonu's particularly geared toward poison or diesease is by far the easiest solution that will keep even high level characters eyeing that green goo on the blade of the assassin.
The other simple alternative is to increase the DCs to keep up with the Level of the poison, but that makes high level poisons more deadly for low level characters. It seems that the designers tried to keep poison DCs in the range that is at least make-able by characters of any level (the highest I found is dragon bile, DC 26). A Con check better fits that apparent design than inflated DCs.
However, your ability to avoid the effects of poison is supposed to rise with level. Making it a Con check fails in that regard. Also, classes with good Fort save lose one of their advantages. Con check makes all classes equal against poison. And it's a slippery slope: Do we eliminate saves against spells next and replace them with Will checks?
That's why I suggested a less simple alternative: reduced secondary effects that are harder to resist, so high level characters are unlikely to completely ignore a poison. The disadvantage is that these have to be designed poison-by-poison. (Of course, that doesn't mean they have to be as complicated as the Striped Toadstool I proposed earlier; I was just playing with some ideas to see where they led). I think I'd go with higher save DCs, and use other ideas in this thread to mitigate how high they need to go. This approach adds design difficulty, and does not necessarily add any difficulty to the use of poison in gameplay.
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Maybe with poison the solution is that initial damage is your fort save, then secondary damage is a con check. Basically your body has an increasing ability to resist poison, but once its in your system it's your bodies general health that determines how bad it f's you up.
Either that or just increase initial damage on poisons so that that first save failed doesn't feel so inconsequential but then the secondary effects could be the normal weak stuff.
might even be better as a Reflex save for the first one,
meaning spit it out, hold breath, evade at the last moment from injection, etc.
agreed, once it's in your system it's really to late for a froopy save
to me, a racial bonus makes sense for enduring poisons/disease ie Dwarves
maybe poison use develops a resistance over time
can see why giving disease resistance to divine casters is appropriate
ie clerics, rangers, druids, paladins
could equally argue for rangers and barbarians gaining poison resistance through survival skill ranks
giving a bonus to others never has sit right with me, just feels wrong is all
Many afflictions already have a "-" value for Cure. I was also thinking that some poisons might require repeated saves for the entire Frequency limit, regardless of past success. So just replace "Cure 1 save" with "Cure - " (I don't know why the Cure property isn't just omitted in that case. It would be easy to say that "Cure - " is the default behavior). I like how the Cure property lets you do something in between if you want to, like "Cure 2 saves" (although there should also be a way to specify whether or not saves must be consecutive - I would say non-consecutive is the default and "consecutive" has to be specified).
.........
I like the idea of cure (more than one save) being required for the deadlier poisons rather than the dc or the effect being made ott. that would mean that there would be a minimum of one rounds effect which could be very scary....
if you want multiple afflictions, why not make the cure different for each possible affliction if you want to make multiple effects
eg effects: Nauseous (cure-), d6 Str damage (cure 2 saves)
wouldn't want every poison like this but the idea of mixing a condition and a ability score with different cures does appeal......