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The bottom line: just two casters and with no magic items managed to keep the party occupied (and would have killed melee guys if it were not for party spellcasters). Oh, and enemies were just doing a little sortie (scouting and measuring PC strong points) - the final encounter assumes that enemy spellcasters will be surrounded by heavy hitters (companion mobs) and the encounter is likely to occur within enemy fortress.
any ambush might kill easily any character if surprised with their pants down
why were the spellcasters of the party not affected? or they were?
and its called tactics... the same effect would have been if rogues/assassins of similar level would have been ready with sneak/death attacks
or making the environment go against them (in a cave... well lets it fall on them)
i am not taking the credit away from your spellcasters... obviously Arcane combat is their areaand where they should excel...
the villian npc wizards while not prepared for the killing where prepared to mabush and check enemies strenghts... that shows players to have better perception or magic spells telling them where enemeis are(i want a sonar :P)
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Stop bringing E6 stuff into discussion of vanilla DnD. First, by the time you get into two-digit levels you have at least three options to get rest no matter what in the core only (unless pursued by similarly potent spellcasters). Second, wars as we know them either do not exist or do not matter - conflicts are decided by the clash between highest-level guys from both sides. Third, and most importantly, if the casters are out of spells, everyone dies to the first significant threat. Partially because some members of the party are crippled. Partially because the fighting types cannot really handle many types of opponents by themselves . And unlike the first two points, this largely applies to low levels too.
Firstly, I don't know what you mean by "E6 stuff". Secondly, this isn't a discussion of Vanilla D&D (There is no such thing, anyways) but a discussion about Fighters in general.
Thirdly, what rest options, other than sleeping? Which means having a safe camp and being able to sleep an amount of time that nobody I know ever gets except on weekends when they're not working, and that nobody in wilderness-related or military-related fields fields that I know *ever* get.
I have considered house-ruling away the rest requirement before, and simply using a 24 hour reset, simply because the idea of 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep *while on an adventure* is ludicrous. Who doesn't wake up a few times during the night when they sleep? Nobody I know.
Wars *do* exist in my D&D games, and in every D&D game that I've played in.
If the casters are out of spells, that means the party has to get really creative, use thier environment and good tactics, or look at options like diplomacy, running away, or surrender.
Are you not able to see past the end of your rulebook?
Swordopolis, i understand what you said, don't wast your breath I know FatR he has one vision of things... others are non existant
but aye... wars are pretty fun to play :D
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Potion of see invis drops the blink miss chance to 20%. Depending on the books you're allowing, a simple 2000gp pair of boots lets you teleport out of those effects (magic item compendium). As players progress, these types of challenges allow them to row organically and adapt to changes. Plus the beta magic item creation stff allows you to custom build gear much more freely. This means you can put in a "special order" for gear that helps over come some of these challenges.Sorry Wrath but there's no such animal as a Potion of See Invisibility. It's a Personal range only spell and is not eligible to be made into a Potion. The only core ways for a Non-spellcaster/non-UMD skill user to get See Invisibility is the Hand of Glory. An Onyx Dog has the ability and Dust of Appearance can also do the job.
--King of Vrock!
My bad, might have been something we houseruled years ago and I forgot about.
Cheers
When the melee characters finally closed down on enemies, they found out that in order to hit enemies they had to:
- see in the dark
- beat 50% miss chance (Blink)
- beat another 50% miss chance (Displacement)
- beat armor class 27
*insert Larry "Supermouth" Huffman voice*
Ladies and gentlemen! Tonight! In Golarion's top one-sided ambushes:
The displaced, blinking, darkened mages own a group of fighter n00bs!
THEN see those same mages get wtf0wned by a small band of halfling Rogues armed with Greater Dispelling and Fireball wands plus a healthy arsenal of grenade-like weapons for as those watching from home know, blinking targets still take half damage from area-effects! But that's not all! Being Contingency their highest level spell, that would be the first to go in the area-dispel, bye-bye escape plan! And if that wasn't enough, our small band of tough ankle-biters would be raining hell on the mages from a beyond-your-movement-rate distance, and moving from cover to cover, 100% COVER courtesy of their eternal friend Shot-On-The-Run which barrs the mages from using targetted spells (AND their Improved Evasion doing short work of area-spells also!)... with a full alleyway of traps and nets between them and the mages the moment they even think of closing in... or previously-placed nets falling on top of their heads if they don't!!!! SEEEEEE THE CARNAGE!
Really, if the players in your game see themselves as "melee characters" or "ranged characters" or "skill monkeys", do yourself a favor and get yourself a better gaming table, or tell your players that this isn't a videogame, and not every situation can be solved by swinging their heavy sword, and the GM is under no obligation of making every opponent in your game beatable with one. Sometimes you'll need different tools, some others you'll need different tactics. (in one of my favorite Conan stories, he defeated a bokkor warlord not with a blade, but with a pinch of salt he sprinkled on a zombie who in life used to be a friend of his).
Homework for your players, play Ravenloft (the GOOD one by White Wolf/Studio Arthaus, not the crap by WotC), a couple of games there might teach your players to deal with menaces you can't face directly.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Potion of see invis drops the blink miss chance to 20%. Depending on the books you're allowing, a simple 2000gp pair of boots lets you teleport out of those effects (magic item compendium). As players progress, these types of challenges allow them to row organically and adapt to changes. Plus the beta magic item creation stff allows you to custom build gear much more freely. This means you can put in a "special order" for gear that helps over come some of these challenges.Sorry Wrath but there's no such animal as a Potion of See Invisibility. It's a Personal range only spell and is not eligible to be made into a Potion. The only core ways for a Non-spellcaster/non-UMD skill user to get See Invisibility is the Hand of Glory. An Onyx Dog has the ability and Dust of Appearance can also do the job.
--King of Vrock!
My bad, might have been something we houseruled years ago and I forgot about.
Cheers
I think it might be a fairly common houserule because I catch it a lot. Like I said having only 3 core methods of being able to see invisibility without spellcasters kind of makes it necessary to many. Blind fight only mitigates Invisibility so much and the new skill trick mechanics had one based on Spot that allows you to see invis for 1 round 1/encounter.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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THEN see those same mages get wtf0wned by a small band of halfling Rogues armed with Greater Dispelling and Fireball wands plus a healthy arsenal of grenade-like weapons...
...And if that wasn't enough, our small band of tough ankle-biters would be raining hell on the mages from a beyond-your-movement-rate distance, and moving from cover to cover, 100% COVER courtesy of their eternal friend Shot-On-The-Run which barrs the mages from using targetted spells (AND their Improved Evasion doing short work of area-spells also!)...
Sure you can throw a grenade like weapon 50ft... with a -8 to hit penalty due to the range increment!
Sure you can throw a grenade like weapon 50ft... with a -8 to hit penalty due to the range increment!
Then engineer yourself a "grenade launcher" (or get a gnome or dwarf to do it for you) to aleviate penalties and get an exotic weapon proficiency, use stink bombs, whatever, do I have to solve every single problem for you guys? =P
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Sure you can throw a grenade like weapon 50ft... with a -8 to hit penalty due to the range increment!Then engineer yourself a "grenade launcher" (or get a gnome or dwarf to do it for you) to aleviate penalties and get an exotic weapon proficiency, use stink bombs, whatever, do I have to solve every single problem for you guys? =P
But, but, but, you used ROGUES in your example!!!
(Rogues rock, btw...)
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Sure you can throw a grenade like weapon 50ft... with a -8 to hit penalty due to the range increment!Then engineer yourself a "grenade launcher" (or get a gnome or dwarf to do it for you) to aleviate penalties and get an exotic weapon proficiency, use stink bombs, whatever, do I have to solve every single problem for you guys? =P
Hey I love halfling throwers as much as the next guy (I have a master alchemist in the works), but let's keep it in the ruleset shall we?
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The OP is one of the Denites, and the whole thread is a Den flamebait. Going by the old rule of "don't feed the trolls", I suggest to ignore it.Oh, and Fighters rule. Mages and Druids suck. Why ? Because "Fighter" starts with "F", which is the coolest letter ever. Bite that, Den guys.
I'm not one of these Denites, whatever that means. The message boards I post on are the Relic Forums and Comic Book Rumbles.
I posted this thread because I felt that there must be people out there who enjoy playing Fighters (and fighter-variants) and so I wanted to see what they have to say. Also, I wanted to get, in thier own words, why it is that people seem to hate fighters.
I see now that the hatred of fighters is based on rather shallow reasons. Reasons that have little or nothing to do with actual roleplaying. All the justifications people are giving sound like they're coming from a WoW player or a Guild Wars player, who sees thier characters as only a collection of stats and powers, instead of a real character.
agreed Swordopolis
as you say, its how its played, no what give more pluses
shallow reasons? high and mighty much? I actually have always placed Fighter as my favorite class (way before Wotc got their mage lovin hands on them) you are not paying any attention to the subtext of this situation, spellcaster lovers hate de-nerfing the Fighter. I love the concept of the traveling swordsman, the brash youth with a blade or the grizzled merc, the reality of the mechanics just peeves those who pay attention to them. where a cinematic seen between a nasty necromancer and a gutsy youth with a blade should be cool, its not.
I am a roleplayer first and foremost but this is a BETA PLAYTEST, MEANING we need to be talking about mechanics. if your storyteller lets you throw dust at an enemy spellcaster, negating his invisible flying self, then that is truly fantastic. if your DM goes around the rules to tell a story how aesthetically it should be done (even if it breaks the rules, and mechanically neuters the mage) then you have a special person across from you. (because the spellcaster pc is going to cry foul)
Let's consider some of these 'denites': CKAfrica, FatR, Ruemere, TriOmegaZero or even Crissa up thread here. Do these guys mistreat the rest of us in any way? Do they cause any trouble at all? Not that I've seen. Nowadays an outright misanthrope will have a short stay here whether he posts at tgdbm.com or not, and most of those guys over there are NOT misanthropes.
These guys have been pushing the limits of the D20 3.5 rules for a very long time. And even the most "misanthropic" of the "Denites" that have been on the Paizo boards have provided some very valuable input and insight into the game.
spellcaster lovers hate de-nerfing the Fighter.
Actually I'm all for empowering the Fighter, and I'm one of the most rabid spellcaster fans.
Is it wrong to miss CoL?
Yes, yes it is. But that's okay, you're forgiven :)
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But I'm a declared misanthrope! I demand recognition!
What do you want? A warning label? Would you settle for a good swift kick? ;)
I'm not one of these Denites, whatever that means. The message boards I post on are the Relic Forums and Comic Book Rumbles.
I'm not the guy accusing you. As long as you do no harm it usually doesn't matter to me where else you post.
Sam
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Let's consider some of these 'denites': CKAfrica, FatR, Ruemere, TriOmegaZero or even Crissa up thread here. Do these guys mistreat the rest of us in any way? Do they cause any trouble at all? Not that I've seen. Nowadays an outright misanthrope will have a short stay here whether he posts at tgdbm.com or not, and most of those guys over there are NOT misanthropes.These guys have been pushing the limits of the D20 3.5 rules for a very long time. And even the most "misanthropic" of the "Denites" that have been on the Paizo boards have provided some very valuable input and insight into the game.
I completely disagree with you. Those guys that were banned didn't have anything to say that the people on my list above(and many others) didn't say also. The only thing I can see that they accomplished was to generate a lot of prejudice against the ideas you're trying to forward here. The exact opposite of valuable. Worthless. Even a giant steaming pile left in the middle of a rug can be moved and used as fertilizer. Instead of fertilizing they salted the earth of this board.
Is it wrong to miss CoL?
Yes!
I suggest you invest in a ranged weapon with the bane and seeking special abilities so you have a better chance of hitting him next time.
I am amused that I get labeled a Denner, despite being on Paizo first. But then, I have spent a lot of time over there lately.
Hopefully I haven't hurt your rep over there by pointing out that you're not a troublemaker. ;)
Sam
Discussing banned people is without tact.
Anyhow, the idea isn't that things can't be fun even if they are not as yet balanced - just that the potential for fun is hampered by these situations.
A Fighter in d20 has several problems
So they're a crappy choice. And basic choices like race and class shouldn't be crappy, they should be balanced.
More balanced, more fun.
-Crissa
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Discussing banned people is without tact.
Yes, even as the person doing the discussing I recognize that, but I think bluntness is the right way to address Sueki Suezo's point above. It was a dangerous point.
Anyhow, the idea isn't that things can't be fun even if they are not as yet balanced - just that the potential for fun is hampered by these situations.
A Fighter in d20 has several problems
True, from the standpoint that certain kinds of fun are hampered by poor balance.
As I've said before, I'm not hostile to the idea of balancing the fighter as long as the class remains intact thematically, and I think there are plenty of improvements that can be made with that in mind. Too bad that ship's probably already sailed since the playtest is almost over.
Now, continuing my lack of tact*, maybe more of these balancing changes would have been made six to four months ago if some people had refrained from making their arguments personal and thus building up resistance to them. Just maybe.
Sam
* Please don't think that I'm offended by you pointing this out.
A Fighter in d20 has several problems
They primarily attack one defense - AC - and generally don't get the option to attack others.
They have a limited number of options - they get one feat for every four automatic spells a Wizard learns, for instance.
They're dependent upon gear to be level-appropriate - instead of levels to use gear, it's gear to use levels.
Any gear they can have can be used by classes that don't need it - in other words, they're a subset of options.
Feat chains - to access level-appropriate abilities, feats must be taken in chains. Most feats only then keep the one ability level appropriate. Starting a new chain means not getting a level appropriate feat.
So they're a crappy choice. And basic choices like race and class shouldn't be crappy, they should be balanced.More balanced, more fun.
-Crissa
*Fighters can set traps, use poison, fear, intimidation and more, but only if the player thinks about it, not because the class doesn't perticularly say so.
*If all you see is a page with numbers and words than every class is limited in their options. What if a wizard runs into a situation where his magic is useless, which can happen very easily.*No. Every class is dependent apon the DM running a good game to be appropriate. A fighter isn't made useful by the gear.
*But if gear has to be a factor, then I'll take the fighter's way. You say other classes don't need it. The condom princible, I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
*Feats only become useless when their not being used or the fighter isn't given a chance to use them in new and intresting ways, or even at all.
To me, more balanced doesn't seem like more fun, just less variety.
Firstly, I don't know what you mean by "E6 stuff".
E6 is a homebrewed variant of DnD where levels caps at 6. Roughly at the point just before DnD turns from action hero/average fantasy game into superhero/high-powered fantasy game, you know.
Secondly, this isn't a discussion of Vanilla D&D (There is no such thing, anyways) but a discussion about Fighters in general.
There is. It is described by the rulebooks. Fighters in general are a part of it.
Thirdly, what rest options, other than sleeping? Which means having a safe camp and being able to sleep an amount of time that nobody I know ever gets except on weekends when they're not working, and that nobody in wilderness-related or military-related fields fields that I know *ever* get.
Read the spells. Your rest options at medium-high levels is to sleep in an extradimensional space (in extradimensional mansion, later), or in your hideout where you can teleport to, or in literal heaven (clerics get the latter when the wizards get teleport). Or, I don't know, set a camp so that enemies can find it only by pure accident, because it is hard to track flying people. Also, do not bring real people in discussions of DnD. Comparing someone from our world with beings that can punch out ogres and cut stone is kinda pointless.
I have considered house-ruling away the rest requirement before, and simply using a 24 hour reset, simply because the idea of 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep *while on an adventure* is ludicrous. Who doesn't wake up a few times during the night when they sleep? Nobody I know.
Learn the rules. "The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. " (c) SRD. That's for arcane spellcasters. Divine ones don't need rest.
Wars *do* exist in my D&D games, and in every D&D game that I've played in.
Except, your games are not relevant here, as expained in another thread.
If the casters are out of spells, that means the party has to get really creative, use thier environment and good tactics, or look at options like diplomacy, running away, or surrender.
No. That means that if the battle happens, the party dies. You cannot counter serious opponents with position advantage, because many of them ignore obstacles outright (flight, incorporeality, teleportation, magical ranged attacks) or outgun a spell-impaired party so much, that the environment doesn't matter; tactics that can save a crippled party against them, ironically, involve magic most of the times; diplomacy doesn't work against your typical opponents in DnD, unless you allow to use the skill strictly as written (and then a well-built character can make every sapient creature he meets his b%#!$, so an overwhelming majority DMs seems to not allow this); surrender tends to be an one-way trip to sacrificial altar or cooking pot, even if you don't fight hungry predators this time; and good luck escaping from more than half of MM without spells. Your can only hope that everyone can sneak well enough to get out of there or, at least, avoid fair fights.
Anyway, if you go out of your way to deny rest and use attrition tactics, this only means that you shaft everyone but clerics, druids and, maybe, stealth/UMD classes, i.e. bards and rogues. Do you know, that cleris and druids can go withour rest forever after getting to 3rd level? (Sleeping is not necessary for them to prepare spells, Lesser Restoration takes care of fatigue.) They are the kings of endurance matches, not poor, little fighter. They also can beat a fighter in his own game, loooong before it becomes entirely useless to arcane spellcasters (druids, after all, get a class feature that is better than his entire class...).
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*insert Larry "Supermouth" Huffman voice*Ladies and gentlemen! Tonight! In Golarion's top one-sided ambushes:
The displaced, blinking, darkened mages own a group of fighter n00bs!
Too bad, that this is how medium-high level mages usually attack and fighers, with their cross-class Spot+Listen and 2 skill points, lack means to prevent even most basic ambushes or detect someone before being detected. In other words, a typical situation.
THEN see those same mages get wtf0wned by a small band of halfling Rogues armed with Greater Dispelling and Fireball wands
There is no such thing as Greater Dispelling wands. Learn the rules.
plus a healthy arsenal of grenade-like weapons for as those watching from home know, blinking targets still take half damage from area-effects!
Like, 7 points of fire damage per round per rogue on average (save DCs on wands blow, my wizard 5 can save against a wand of fireballs 75% of the time). Mages laugh at their pathetic attempts.
And if that wasn't enough, our small band of tough ankle-biters would be raining hell on the mages from a beyond-your-movement-rate distance, and moving from cover to cover, 100% COVER courtesy of their eternal friend Shot-On-The-Run which barrs the mages from using targetted spells (AND their Improved Evasion doing short work of area-spells also!)...
No one ever uses Reflex save area spells against anything but bunches of mooks anyway. Expect Fort area save-or-lose or BC that ignores saves (Evard's tentacle rape, fog spells), they are among wizards' staples anyway. Also, your assumption that rogues a)have environment that can reasonably provide said cover b)move faster than mages c)can reliably see mages, is false, because, as I noticed above, mages' buffs are still in place.
with a full alleyway of traps and nets between them and the mages the moment they even think of closing in... or previously-placed nets falling on top of their heads if they don't!!!! SEEEEEE THE CARNAGE!
And here you assume that mages are on the offensive, invading rogues' territory, but, somehow, are totally unbuffed. Truly a pinnacle of ludicrousness.
In other words, you jump through the hoops to make the situation as unfavorable for mages as possible and still fail at this.|
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*Feats only become useless when their not being used or the fighter isn't given a chance to use them in new and intresting ways, or even at all.
To address this particular point, I believe they were saying that some feats don't scale, which means that their usefulness deteriorates. You would presumably admit the possibility that such feats could exist, that even with this creative play that you can achieve and apparently others cannot, the utility of some feats would decrease as you gain levels? In which case, it's really an argument about specific feats and how the fighter being "given a chance to use them in new and interesting ways" will save them, which will no doubt become as boring as most of these arguments do but would have the benefit of specificity, but at the cost of generalised conclusions.
As an aside, with your talk about fighters being 'given a chance' to use feats in particular ways, you presumably allude to the DM being the guy that creates the opportunities for fighters not to suck. Now, most people on either side would agree that that's the case across the board, not just in discussions of feats -- it's used, for example, in DMs playing opponents in a particular manner so that they don't just ignore the fighter -- but I guess the question is whether the class's alleged reliance on the DM (which you implicitly add to this discussion) is too great, particularly if it's considerably more than for the other classes. In the end, of course, a great DM can make nearly any game good to play, but that doesn't mean that all games are equally good, for almost any mechanical definition of whether a game is good (and even if you based your metric on 'player enjoyment', you'd have to average over DMs).
*Fighters can set traps, use poison, fear, intimidation and more, but only if the player thinks about it, not because the class doesn't perticularly say so.
You seem to miss the fact that they suck at this or cannot do this (fighers don't cause fear without items). Poison and non-magical traps are weak in general. Intimidation, IIRC, can be made good, but not by pure fighters.
*If all you see is a page with numbers and words than every class is limited in their options. What if a wizard runs into a situation where his magic is useless, which can happen very easily.
There are about two such situations - a dead magic zone or a wild magic zone. Both are supposed to be quite rare, even if they exist in the setting at all. A melee-based fighter (archery ones are hardly effective) is massively disabvantaged by a huge bunch of situations that make getting into melee hard.
*No. Every class is dependent apon the DM running a good game to be appropriate. A fighter isn't made useful by the gear.
It is, and a DM should not be responsible for making party of characters with very different power levels work together, even if currently he is. DnD parties are currently like the Justice League which must face stupid enemies or enemies with just one specific weakness so that weaker members would have any chance to contribute. Except that monster manuals do not take this into account.
*Feats only become useless when their not being used or the fighter isn't given a chance to use them in new and intresting ways, or even at all.
But how they can be used in new and interesting ways (except for multi-use feats from 3.X supplements)? By definition, they are very narrow tricks. Those feats that allow for more interesting things that "hit them harder" and "hit them some more" were nerfed in PBeta, by the way, although even in 3.5 the only honestly good tactical feat in the core was Improved Trip.
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spellcaster lovers hate de-nerfing the Fighter.Actually I'm all for empowering the Fighter, and I'm one of the most rabid spellcaster fans.
he is rabid... indeed...
Noted Dogbert. but why do i sometimes feel that those who defend the worth of melee noncasters have never played one.....i feel a conspiracy afoot.spellcaster lovers hate de-nerfing the Fighter.Actually I'm all for empowering the Fighter, and I'm one of the most rabid spellcaster fans.
oh as one of his DM ican say he has played them, and as with the spellcaster heuses everything in his hands to greatuse... he does the same as a fighter...
i believe in D20 the jedies player's hate him too :P
You seem to miss the fact that they suck at this or cannot do this (fighers don't cause fear without items). Poison and non-magical traps are weak in general. Intimidation, IIRC, can be made good, but not by pure fighters.
By book standards, the fighter is usually weak in the will save area as everyone on the forums keep pointing out. But the wizard is normally weak in the fort and ref save areas, but yet poison and non-magic traps are weak so then it's not the fighters fault the system is geared towards helping out the wizard, so maybe traps and poisons need to be reworked. If a fighter takes out a giant or two by himself and he's not a spellcaster, then sorry, but that would make just about anyone scared of him. By the book, intimidation is a class skill for the fighter so it can work just by putting skill points in it.
There are about two such situations - a dead magic zone or a wild magic zone. Both are supposed to be quite rare, even if they exist in the setting at all. A melee-based fighter (archery ones are hardly effective) is massively disabvantaged by a huge bunch of situations that make getting into melee hard.
When a wizard is casting a spell, stuff a rag in the mouth. No silent spell feat, no spell. Dive tackle and start smashing the hands. No still spell feat, no spell. There are too many ways to take away a wizards magic for me to list them here, but you get the idea.
It is, and a DM should not be responsible for making party of characters with very different power levels work together, even if currently he is. DnD parties are currently like the Justice League which must face stupid enemies or enemies with just one specific weakness so that weaker members would have any chance to contribute. Except that monster manuals do not take this into account.
Misunderstanding here, my fault, I'm sorry. What I meant was that if a DM is going to run a game and someone is gonna play a fighter, then the DM should have stuff in that game for the fighter to do and more than just swing the sword. Now if the fighter just doesn't do anything else, or at all, then it's not the DM's fault. My statment was just to say that the fighter isn't limited by gear, that shouldn't be a factor of weather a fighter is useful or not.
But how they can be used in new and interesting ways (except for multi-use feats from 3.X supplements)? By definition, they are very narrow tricks. Those feats that allow for more interesting things that "hit them harder" and "hit them some more" were nerfed in PBeta, by the way,...
This ones kinda hard to explain. I'm one of those people that's always trying to think outside the box and as a DM I'm pretty sure you do to. I encourage my players to think of ways through maneuvers or whatever way they can justify to apply certain older feats in new ways. If they think it through and I agree with the idea, then suddenly the feats arn't so very narrow anymore. I'm not very good at explaining my views on a computer so bare with me here. Tryin my best. :)
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D20 Star Wars, I assume (Whether Saga or no, alas, I can assume only so much.). So I think he meant Jedi.
yes, Jedi, my apologies :P
non-saga
i remember one of our mutual friends commenting on his bountyhunter doing the hard job whilethe Jedi got all of them in trouble
hardly relevant... but its fighting class vs "spellcaster" class
also i have seen him playing with paladins & combat rogues with different levels of effectiveness (trip-sneak combo... its just obscene...)
Anyhow, the idea isn't that things can't be fun even if they are not as yet balanced - just that the potential for fun is hampered by these situations.
A Fighter in d20 has several problems
They primarily attack one defense - AC - and generally don't get the option to attack others.
They have a limited number of options - they get one feat for every four automatic spells a Wizard learns, for instance.
They're dependent upon gear to be level-appropriate - instead of levels to use gear, it's gear to use levels.
Any gear they can have can be used by classes that don't need it - in other words, they're a subset of options.
Feat chains - to access level-appropriate abilities, feats must be taken in chains. Most feats only then keep the one ability level appropriate. Starting a new chain means not getting a level appropriate feat. So they're a crappy choice. And basic choices like race and class shouldn't be crappy, they should be balanced.
More balanced, more fun.
-Crissa
How do you feel about other melee classes like Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, and Rogues right now, I wonder? Do you feel that these other classes are similarly disadvantaged?
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How do you feel about other melee classes like Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, and Rogues right now, I wonder? Do you feel that these other classes are similarly disadvantaged?
Rogues not so much, they have the skill points to move safely in melee combat and use a wide variety of magic items (scrolls, wands, staves, etc, you know, the GOOD stuff ;) ), more things are susceptable to sneak attack now, and the rogue talents help a lot.
Barbarians and rangers could definitely benefit from a lot of the fighter proposals bouncing around as well (which is why I usually say "melee" instead of "fighter").
Paladins are kinda hopeless, imo.
You forgot monks, but then, monks are pretty forgetable...
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the swift action lay on hand for 1/2 levelxd6 is pretty nice, i wouldnt write them off. use the paladin jason wrote on the board and its doing better (still has all the noncasters flaws still)
Kirth already designed a Paladin "Prestige Class" we use in our game. We don't even use the standard class paladin anymore. Some of Jason's fixes were ok, and Kirth incorporated them into the PrC, but we still found the standard class lacking...
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the swift action lay on hand for 1/2 levelxd6 is pretty nice, i wouldnt write them off. use the paladin jason wrote on the board and its doing better (still has all the noncasters flaws still)Kirth already designed a Paladin "Prestige Class" we use in our game. We don't even use the standard class paladin anymore. Some of Jason's fixes were ok, and Kirth incorporated them into the PrC, but we still found the standard class lacking...
actually I like more dogbert's Paladin Prestige Class, but aye it needa bit of fixes too
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The paladins, especially the updated version, are much better than fighters. They need high Strength and Charisma (as opposed to Strength, Wisdom, Charisma) now, they have a lot of staying power (healing + restoration effects) and they can deal decent damage when it matters. Finally, they can overcome damage reduction of important enemies.
Regards,
Ruemere
This is true, in their niche (Evil Baddies), but they lack some generalist "oomph".
They are less MAD, have good saves, and spells, so that's cool, but, I dunno, the old school in me misses the Paladin of 1E AD&D...
*sigh*
If a fighter takes out a giant or two by himself and he's not a spellcaster, then sorry, but that would make just about anyone scared of him.
How about... no? There ARE things in DnD world compared to whom giants are simpy unimpressive. Like, every creature of CR 14+. Generally, why anyone who is on the same level with you should feel intimidated any more than your skill check suggest?
By the book, intimidation is a class skill for the fighter so it can work just by putting skill points in it.
Too bad, that the skill by itself sucks and has no use. Imposing -2 penalty for one whole turn as a standard action? No, thanks.
When a wizard is casting a spell, stuff a rag in the mouth. No silent spell feat, no spell. Dive tackle and start smashing the hands. No still spell feat, no spell. There are too many ways to take away a wizards magic for me to list them here, but you get the idea.
Oh, I get it. It is not like the idea of using a lot of DM fiat is uncommon. Please, can we return to the discussion of the rules, which require you to first get past the caster's defences to do anything like this and also give full casters an ability to either crush fighters in grapple or escape grapples perfectly by levels 5-7?
Misunderstanding here, my fault, I'm sorry. What I meant was that if a DM is going to run a game and someone is gonna play a fighter, then the DM should have stuff in that game for the fighter to do and more than just swing the sword.
Except, why this should require extra effort from DM?
There is no such thing as Greater Dispelling wands.
Ok, make that Greater Dispelling STAVES, or RODS, thanks for the correction.
And here you assume that mages are on the offensive, invading rogues' territory, but, somehow, are totally unbuffed.
Let's see...
Ambush
Noun (plural ambushes)
1. A disposition or arrangement of troops for attacking an enemy unexpectedly from a concealed station. Hence: Unseen peril; a device to entrap; a snare.
2. A concealed station, where troops or enemies lie in wait to attack by surprise.
I was talking about ambushes, or at least that's what I -think- my post was about, so all the Rogues have to do is wait for their 1/round buffs (ie ALL their buffs) to expire before laying the smackdown on them... either that or just use their staves (or rods) to dispel them... and just in case, the one who posted that scenario said those mages didn't have items.
Anyway, given how you heckle so much about the "invincible mages"... do you have any proposal on how to help offset the problem? People like Kirth Gershen has suggested giving warriors more and better tools (something I wholeheartedly support), and people like Seth and Sneaksy Dragon has proposed getting rid of Casting Defensively or at least making more difficult to cast in the middle of combat (something which is necessary if we want magic to be magic, there should be a tradeoff). Nerf and massive one-dimensionalization of spells is the course of action which is already being taken (not like there's much left to nerf anyway) so, do you have any contribution to make? Don't give us problems, give us solutions.
How about... no? There ARE things in DnD world compared to whom giants are simpy unimpressive. Like, every creature of CR 14+. Generally, why anyone who is on the same level with you should feel intimidated any more than your skill check suggest?
Well the DnD world is suppose to be more than just CR and other numbers so that's why I thought that one regular base book race fighter taking out giants as rather impressive.
Too bad, that the skill by itself sucks and has no use. Imposing -2 penalty for one whole turn as a standard action? No, thanks.
I'm not a number cruncher and don't consider the math of the game as the most important aspect. Say big evil bad guy sends his minions after the fighter. Fighter is a very intimidating character and the minions become more afraid of facing the fighter than the big evil bad guy. Intimidation and fear can go a long ways, but that would be an aspect that you would have to RP and the dice might not be a factor.
Oh, I get it. It is not like the idea of using a lot of DM fiat is uncommon. Please, can we return to the discussion of the rules, which require you to first get past the caster's defences to do anything like this and also give full casters an ability to either crush fighters in grapple or escape grapples perfectly by levels 5-7?
So what you're saying is if a fighter is allowed to exploit the inherent weakness of the wizard it's using a lot of DM fiat, but when a wizard does the same thing to the fighter, then it's just fine and dandy.
That makes absolutly no sense at all.
Because being the DM means you are going to run a game that everyone of the players, reguardless of class or abilities, should have fun and be able to play. That right there requires extra effort from the DM. Not just for the fighter, but for every class and every player at the table.
For me, there's an inherent benefit to being able to stack so many feats together. Splatbooks in 3.5e, and Jason's new feats (especially the critical feats) in pathfinder.
While any other class can attempt to pick up a few things, no one but the fighter can go down a full fighting feat chain and still pick up some of the really nice feats at later levels.
I listed before how I'd play a high level fighter to be effective. Being effective though, doesn't mean there couldn't be some fixes.
Here's what I'd consider doing to the Fighter (and generally, melee):
1. Provide a decent way to get a full attack while still moving in combat. Some ideas:
Pounce feat - get a full attack on a charge. PHBII had something similar for TWF. Psychic Warriors have a power they gain at 4th level that can do this. It's not game-imbalancing (if anything it helps balance melee).
Alter Spring Attack - Make this like Ride-by attack. You spend a decent chunk of feats (mostly useless ones in fact), make it worthwhile.
Allow movement in between each of your attacks in a full attack. Don't provoke AoO for leaving a threatened space from anyone you've attacked.
Once again, PHBII basically had something like this (extra attacks during a spring attack).
Low level Dimension Hop spell - I keep coming back to PHBII, but they have a 2nd level dimension door spell. Quickened makes it a swift action. A permanent item allowing unlimited uses would cost 72k to make, which is feasible for a 16th level character, and less than 10% wealth of a 20th level Fighter.
My least preferred fix, as it would create more dependency on an item... one this good would become a "must have" item.. which begs the question as to why it isn't a class feature.
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2. Reduce the cost of some feat chains. TWF is ridiculously feat heavy. Whirlwind attack would use up half of a standard character's feats. And yet, Quickened Spell is something a caster can pick up at 1st level if they wanted (albeit useless for 8 levels or so).
And to those that question how good Quickened Spell might be compared to full TWFing... it allows combos like True Strike + Ray, or Enervation + DC save or die spell. Web + Solid Fog. Combos that either stack well together, or don't let the enemy have a chance to respond before nailing the new weakness you created.
And a Fighter has to burn a few to get an extra attack at -10.
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3. Starting at 10th+, give the Fighter unique abilities instead of just blanket feats. Like the Rogue Talents, give him the option to get something Fighter Unique (put Greater Weapon Specialization, etc in here), OR the option to just buy another combat feat.
Preferrably stuff that allowed attacking Reflex and Fort saves (with stat damage and debuff effects, similar to the Critical feats only more reliable).
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That should give the Fighter a leg up to match the other melees without becoming ridiculous. And a general "move + full attack" change should make melee characters far more capable in combat.
When you are more reliably getting that 300 average damage per round, you start to make a bigger impact.
Yeah, so you can't solo mages by yourself. Bypassing Blink might still be tough. But we don't want to write the Spellcasters right out of the group.
Let the Spellcaster in your group neutralize the enemies defenses, empowering you to do the damage you can now do.
Something that happened in a recent game was our party Wizard casting Telekinesis to grapple the Wizard, and then signaled the Rogue to use the fly spell he still had to go and sneak attack the wizard, killing him.
This is how I picture the melee playing their role in combat alongside their wizard buddies... wizard helps the melee get past the defenses of the target, and the melee lands the 100+ damage.
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Lots of good stuff
The fighter talents are a feature in Kirth's redo of the class, but they get them at the same time as rogues, with "lesser" and "greater" talents (pre and post 10th level). They still get the feats, armor and weapon training, etc, but they also get a couple of other neat tricks as well.
I agree that non-equipment based solutions are more palatable, partially because I'd like to see fighters less gear dependent, partially because I just want them to rock the house without crutches...
As long as there was non-magical ways of doing the full attack, I wouldn't mind seeing magic as just another option.
Especially if the magic way costs a pretty penny, but allows better use (like, don't have to charge so no minimum 10ft movement requirement, or allowing further distance travelled.. similar to buying boots of expeditious retreat, travel past obstacles, etc).
I breifly had the ability to teleport as a swift action at-will as a Fighter. As an Enlarged Spiked Chain fighter.
You know what? It didn't make my character imbalanced at all. I was still stymied by the wall of force spell, and still couldn't chase down the wizard that threw up an obscuring cloud/invis spell and took off.
It did let me perform my job better, and deal similar damage against the melee baddies as the rogue who did a move + sneak attack from flanking and got gobs of damage.
Just being able to move 30' and still make a full attack let me keep up.
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Too bad it was only a temporary thing. Now that character is going for 4 levels of Pyschic Warrior (psionic lion's pounce) and Craft Universal Item... got my fingers crossed!
Wall of force doesn't stop teleporting.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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[threadjack]Boots of expeditious retreat? Somebody had a mighty lenient DM. You're supposed to compare new magic items to ones already on the books. For expeditious retreat you look at either Boots of Striding & springing or Speed. +30 speed all the time is extremely powerful and I would charge far more than the 12K for the boots of speed which only work for 10r/day. I'd make you pay closer to 30K, which is less than Wings of Flying but more than Winged boots which only give you 15 minutes of flight.[/threadjack]
-Vrocknrolla!
Wall of force doesn't stop teleporting.
Hmm, I believe I couldn't get line of sight to an unoccupied space or something. Or it might have been the teleport effect, I might not have been able to travel past obstructions (there's a spell like that in the PHB2).
Sorry about the confusion, my point was that I couldn't attack through it though.. full attack or single attack. Still foiled by the same things, so it wasn't overpowered.