Ok, this thread might be better suited for a Bestiary thread, but it does fall into 'additional rules'.
I have an issue with the way that Fast Healing, Regeneration, and to a lesser degree DR work.
Mostly, my problem is that regeneration doesn't work as advertised. Most of the time, it's an inferior version of fast healing. This is because once the monster drops, it's not getting back up. Even if the party has no immediate way to kill it, it's a fairly simple matter to keep it unconcious.
Case study: A troll
1) The party beats the troll unconcious with non-fire, non-acid weapons, then coup-de-graces it with something fire/burns it on a pyre/drown it. Result: The fight behaved exactly like the troll had Fast Healing.
2) The party beats down the troll with a combination of fire and melee. Once again, the unconcious troll is dispatched in some manner. Result: Once again, the fight behaved exactly like the troll had fast healing, unless it somehow gets away long enough to regenerate all of its nonlethal damage.
3) The party uses ONLY fire (somehow). Result: Regeneration is negated. However, forcing a melee character to deal only fire damage usually reduces their damage output.
My secondary problem is that Fast Healing, Regeneration, and DR overlap quite a bit in flavor. In some cases, particularly DR/Adamantine, DR is the same as Hardness: It means the weapon just doesn't penetrate. However, it frequently means the wound instantly closes. DR at least is mechanically different, where as Regeneration and Fast Healing are basically the same, except one can reattach limbs.
I don't know how to fix it, but I do think it is a problem.
I don't agree it's a problem, but you analyze it pretty well.
Here's a few additional differences to add to the discussion:
1) If a Regenerator receives a magical cure, it double heals (up to the total non-lethal damage.
2) A fast healer can be killed by a hit after it drops to bring it to -Con, a Regenerator requires a coup de grace with the right type. So the regenerator requires either special attention, or continuous attention until all other threats are dealt with.
3) Constructs and Undead cannot have Regen, since they do not take non-lethal damage, so Fast Healing is important.
4) Hardness could work well for some DR's (though it currently is reserved for objects). However for DR that isn't "prevent the blow from getting through", Regen/Fast Healing is "wounds close quickly", where as DR is "wounds close instantly", both mechanically and thematically different.
I don't agree it's a problem, but you analyze it pretty well.
Here's a few additional differences to add to the discussion:
1) If a Regenerator receives a magical cure, it double heals (up to the total non-lethal damage.
2) A fast healer can be killed by a hit after it drops to bring it to -Con, a Regenerator requires a coup de grace with the right type. So the regenerator requires either special attention, or continuous attention until all other threats are dealt with.
3) Constructs and Undead cannot have Regen, since they do not take non-lethal damage, so Fast Healing is important.
4) Hardness could work well for some DR's (though it currently is reserved for objects). However for DR that isn't "prevent the blow from getting through", Regen/Fast Healing is "wounds close quickly", where as DR is "wounds close instantly", both mechanically and thematically different.
1) well actually that double heal is weird, in many cases where healing is swiftly available.. a troll being fought off with both fire and normal blows gets more healing benefit than a troll being fought only with weapons.
4) I prefer and do use hardness instead of adamantine DR for objects, this means they get some energy resistance in addition to the DR aspect which suits an animated stone statue well in my view.
1) well actually that double heal is weird, in many cases where healing is swiftly available.. a troll being fought off with both fire and normal blows gets more healing benefit than a troll being fought only with weapons.
This is absolutely true, and definitely a problem. When the trolls have healing available, it should not be sub-optimal to start throwing fire in addition to swords.
4) I prefer and do use hardness instead of adamantine DR for objects, this means they get some energy resistance in addition to the DR aspect which suits an animated stone statue well in my view.
An animated statue would be an Animated Object, which does use hardness, even in the core rules.
1) well actually that double heal is weird, in many cases where healing is swiftly available.. a troll being fought off with both fire and normal blows gets more healing benefit than a troll being fought only with weapons.This is absolutely true, and definitely a problem. When the trolls have healing available, it should not be sub-optimal to start throwing fire in addition to swords.
4) I prefer and do use hardness instead of adamantine DR for objects, this means they get some energy resistance in addition to the DR aspect which suits an animated stone statue well in my view.An animated statue would be an Animated Object, which does use hardness, even in the core rules.
sorry my bad I meant constructs not objects, basically I'd replace all references to DR adamantine with hardness, fighting a stone golem with a torch would be a dumb thing to do and the rules should reflect that.
1) well actually that double heal is weird, in many cases where healing is swiftly available.. a troll being fought off with both fire and normal blows gets more healing benefit than a troll being fought only with weapons.This is absolutely true, and definitely a problem. When the trolls have healing available, it should not be sub-optimal to start throwing fire in addition to swords.
I've always ruled that cures would heal double non-lethal if there's no (or not enough) lethal damage to repair. It'd just be silly otherwise.
I think the main reason Fast Healing exists is to give non-living things a way to have a "regenerate-like" ability. Vampires regenerating can't be the regeneration ability because they are undead (no Con, don't take non-lethal damage).
The other main difference being that if you don't know what kind of healing the target has (Fast Healing or Regeneration), or even that it has a healing property (maybe it takes longer, regeneration 1 or something)... you might not know to "coup de gras with the right tool" and the enemy comes back for revenge.
Yeah, everyone knows that a Troll regenerates and hates Fire. However, if a custom Ooze gets splattered everywhere and the PCs think they've won.. and camp for the night somewhere nearby... that ooze might become an issue pretty quick.
Fast healing doesn't work quite the same way... dead = dead. Maybe you can try a Bluff to pretend to fall unconscious or dead, but really.. you don't "die" and come back like you do with Regeneration.
That distinction is why they can coexist.
Fast healing doesn't work quite the same way... dead = dead. Maybe you can try a Bluff to pretend to fall unconscious or dead, but really.. you don't "die" and come back like you do with Regeneration.
That distinction is why they can coexist.
What he said.
|
I would personally make DR to work like 'DR Half/X' instead of, say, 'DR 15/X', and perhaps add 'Invulnerable/X' to some high-level critters (such as Iron Golems) that would prevent all damage. Also, some creature might be vulnerable to certain weapons or damage types (e.f. fire or acid), in which case Liches (being "skeletal" creatures) would have both 'DR Half/Magic or Bludgeoning' and 'Vulnerable (Bludgeoning)' (i.e. a non-magical bludgeoning weapon would deal normal damage against them, but a magical bludgeoning weapon would deal double base damage against them).
Also, I'd probably "tweak" 'Incorporeality' to effectively work as 'DR half/-' (those percentile dice should be eliminated from the game). That would be faster, and enable GMs to use low-level ghosts without worrying about whether the party wizard/cleric/bard/etcetera has memorized 'Magic Weapon' or not. Another option would be to replace the percentile roll with a D20 roll -- 11+ and you hit the incorporeal creature (this could also work with Concealment "check", I think?).
Thoughts?
Another option would be to replace the percentile roll with a D20 roll -- 11+ and you hit the incorporeal creature (this could also work with Concealment "check", I think?).
Thoughts?
DR/Invulnerable is bad mojo. That's basically how it worked in 3.0 (ever try to break DR 60/Something?), and it was bad game design.
As for rolling a d20 for comcealmeant/incorporeal, that's how I do it already. As long as the percentage is a multiple of 5%, you can do it witha d20.
The problem with things like DR "half" was that it gets silly when brought to the extremes. A Firegiant playing on the surface of the sun... a skeleton being "pierced" by a huge ballista shot, etc.
that doesnt seem a problem with DR half, but a problem with immunity.
As for rolling a d20 for comcealmeant/incorporeal, that's how I do it already. As long as the percentage is a multiple of 5%, you can do it witha d20.Another option would be to replace the percentile roll with a D20 roll -- 11+ and you hit the incorporeal creature (this could also work with Concealment "check", I think?).
Thoughts?
I prefer to not use a d20 for those things, because they could be heavily impacted by things that affect "any d20 roll" (thinking mostly of Action points, but there are other things like that).
There's nothing wrong with Percentile dice :P
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Tangentally, would it be too much to clarify which DR are (SU) and which are (EX)?
As to fast heal vs DR, I think of the Hulk (in the comics, not seen the movies) Originally the Hulk was of the invulnerable type. later writers (Peter David comes to mind) portray the Hulk's invulnerability as a healing factor. in fact, if the Maestro is any indication, it's potentially greater than Wolverine/Sabertooth/X-23's healing factor.
in game terms, we have the vampire (DR and fast healing) and the (closed content) half vampire from Liber Mortus which has DR, and a fast healing that only heals up to half strength. (Weird mechanic, how exactly do you explain half full? Though it does make for a good slayer template too)
I look at the DR/magic, good, law, evil, etc as a 'healing factor' type, when it's overcome, it's that the body can't quickly heal that kind of trauma, or that the ambient energy of the magic interfers with it. DR/Adamantine is normally the 'toughness' kind.
DR/special materials is part of the interference type. Either the silver 'burns' or for more mystic creatures, it actually interfers with them. There was a vampire in 2e that it was described as anything that didn't bypass the DR went through him like air. Stylistically, how do you overcome that in 3x? "Ha! 20 points of damage!" "Your blade passes through his body like air, but it hurt, a lot!"
The problem with Regen/FastHeal is that the combat mechanic does not include pain and reluctance to being injured.
Pain invokes non-volitional reactions to withdraw and protect when the pain level gets high enough. In the real world, one must worry about injuries, especially those that might be permanent. A game tries to make combat "work" right under those assumptions.
Magical healing rolls back the permanence of some injuries but not the brain-stem reactions to pain etc. But a creature that has innate regeneration, and can re-attatch its own severed limbs or grow another, that's a different matter. It knows it can't really be "hurt" that bad, and presumably the body's pain tolerance and reactions are different as well. They could be quasi-masochistic, revelling not in the pain but in the sensations they get from the regeneration process.
Slicing into an arm doesn't become a deterrant. Severing a limb may mean it beats on you with the stump.
Anyone want to bring morale back from 2nd?
Anyone want to bring morale back from 2nd?
Yes. Well, I don't know how 2e did it exactly (it's been a while now), but having a Morale mechanic would give the Fighters a little something extra too.
And remember:
Me to a troll, "I don't have to break your body... I just have to break your mind!" Casts Evard's spiked tentacles of forceful penetration, repeated and extended.
|
|
The problem with things like DR "half" was that it gets silly when brought to the extremes. A Firegiant playing on the surface of the sun... a skeleton being "pierced" by a huge ballista shot, etc.
No, I did not mean that we should incorporate 'Resistance to X' into the DR system (which is probably what you meant by that Fire Giant example?). Also, a ballista bolt has a lot of kinetic energy, and due to its size (at least when compared to Large and smaller sized skeletons) has a lot of "impact factor", i.e. bludgeoning "force" (some slahing weapons also should inflict "impact" damage, which why I'd rule that, for example, all Axes would also be counted as 'Bludgeoning' weapons whenever it's more beneficial -- GURPS and several other systems already do that, and some polearms in 3E/PF also have two damage types)
|
|
Another option would be to replace the percentile roll with a D20 roll -- 11+ and you hit the incorporeal creature (this could also work with Concealment "check", I think?).
Thoughts?
DR/Invulnerable is bad mojo. That's basically how it worked in 3.0 (ever try to break DR 60/Something?), and it was bad game design.
Yeah... you're quite right about that. I hated DR 50/+5 in 3.0, and I would hate it now even more. That was just a "quick" idea, and after a good night's sleep I'm definitely against it.