Creative Director
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So, let us assume that there will be dinosaurs in the Pathfinder Bestiary. A relatively safe assumption, since every edition of the game's core monster book has had them since 1st edition, yes?
So, working on that assumption, I would love to hear folks answer the following questions:
1) How many dinosaurs is the right amount to do a good show of it?
2) What four dinosaurs would you hope to see in the book more than any other?
3) How important is it to maintain all five dinosaurs from the MM? Can we get away with just one dromaeosaurid (probably the deinonychus), with the assumption that one can make a megaraptor by simply advancing the deinonychus?
4) If #3 above is true, would it better to replace the deinonychus with the velociraptor? Velociraptor is more well-known these days, and it's easy enough to say that a velociraptor advanced up one size category is a deinonychus.
5) Dinosaurs don't have to be boring. They don't have to simply be hit points and a bite attack. Currently living animals have a wide range of biodiversity, with special attacks like poison, constriction, electricity generation, stunning attacks, ranged attacks (like tarantulas flicking poison hairs, archerfish spitting balls of water, or cobras spitting poison), and the like. Would it be too strange to give some dinosaurs a bit more flavor by giving them attacks that aren't necessarily supported by the fossil record?
6) Is there anything in particular with how dinosaurs have been stattud up in the game before that rubs you the wrong way that you'd like to see changed?
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1) Well, I'd like to see some herbivores, so maybe six?
2) T-Rex (natch), some sort of Raptor, Triceratops, Pterodactyl.
3) A base line Raptor is fine, they can be advanced easily enough.
4) Sounds cool.
5) Make them funky! Real world analogues are cool and all, but give them some fantasy flavor...
6) See #5...
#5 seems necessary. The only DnD product which excited me about dinosaurs was the isle of dread, and that was a very limited scope. Dinosaurs without special powers just do not seem to "fit" into fantasy.
Without special powers, they are merely bland megafauna that happens to have a basis in real-world geological reality... But it would be best not to take this too far and have Stegosauri shooting laser beams.
So, working on that assumption, I would love to hear folks answer the following questions:
1.Q) How many dinosaurs is the right amount to do a good show of it?
1.A) My personal preference would be as many as you can fit in without causing postal delivery personnel to experience slipped discs. That said, I guess not everyone loves dinosaurs as much as I do. I'd like to see at least one huge-sized or larger carnivore, one large-sized or smaller carnivore, one large sauropod herbivore, one ceratopsid herbivore, one aquatic carnivore, and one small or tiny carnivore that could be a swarm creature.
2.Q) What four dinosaurs would you hope to see in the book more than any other?
2.A) If I had to pick four, I'd go with the dinosaur "iconics" -- Tyrannosaurus, Apatosaurus, Triceratops, and Elasmosaurus. I actually like Tylosaurus better, but I think you can get a similar effect by advancing crocodiles. And yeah, Elasmosaurus isn't a dinosaur, but it's still cool.
3.Q) How important is it to maintain all five dinosaurs from the MM? Can we get away with just one dromaeosaurid (probably the deinonychus), with the assumption that one can make a megaraptor by simply advancing the deinonychus?
3.A) I guess you could, although I would argue that the behaviour of a deinoychus as a pack hunter is going to be very different than that of a megaraptor. Statistically it works, but I think having the varied flavour for the different types is important.
4.Q) If #3 above is true, would it better to replace the deinonychus with the velociraptor? Velociraptor is more well-known these days, and it's easy enough to say that a velociraptor advanced up one size category is a deinonychus.
4.A) I'd stick with deinonychus. For me, one of the great things about D&D when I was growing up was that it would throw terms at me that I didn't know, and would learn as a result. I would however include a picture, which the MM doesn't have, and a line of text stating that a medium-sized deinonychus would be semi-equivalent to a velociraptor.
5.Q) Dinosaurs don't have to be boring. They don't have to simply be hit points and a bite attack. Currently living animals have a wide range of biodiversity, with special attacks like poison, constriction, electricity generation, stunning attacks, ranged attacks (like tarantulas flicking poison hairs, archerfish spitting balls of water, or cobras spitting poison), and the like. Would it be too strange to give some dinosaurs a bit more flavor by giving them attacks that aren't necessarily supported by the fossil record?
5.A) I'd be ok with this, although the purist in me is arguing that some of the really unusual stuff should be left for future bestiaries. That said, there are strong arguments for sophisticated pack-hunting, tree-climbing/ambush behaviour, and tracking abilities. Maybe early "modifications" could be focused on behaviour, with more unusual abilities being given to future dinosaurs? I think that the iconic dinosaurs work fine with what is normally attributed to them, but that after that it's difficult to get gamers excited about another set of dinosaurs that are just more "hit points and bite attacks."
6.Q) Is there anything in particular with how dinosaurs have been stattud up in the game before that rubs you the wrong way that you'd like to see changed?
6.A) Nothing jumps to mind right away, but mechanics aren't my strong point. If I think of anything, I'll post it in here later.
Hope that helps,
CR
Just Four? Ahhhh come on.
Seriously go with the classics, T-Rex, Raptor, Triceratops, Pterodactyl. Dino's like Spinosouris (spelling?) and some of the more funky certpions and raptors are cool, but should be in further monster books (or Dino Monster Manual hint hint).
Heck do it this way, if the Dino was a Dinobot, then he's in the book +1 more. My choice would be Raptor. That's six Dinos thats a good number.
As for having fun maybe a new kind of Dino, something never seen before. Or maybe give Raptors a sort of trible society, something akin primitive primeapes.
TTFN DRE
I think the T-Rex and the raptor are must haves, just for the recognition factor, and the fact that they should be aggressive enough that the PCs will have a reason to figure out what some of those special attacks are.
Its hard to say how many other dinosaurs should be in it, because I'm not sure what would be cut to do this.
I do like dinosaurs getting something other than just hit points and bite attacks. As far as support from the fossil record . . . I don't know, I guess if they have some ability that at least someone with some kind of idea about dinosaurs might attribute to them, then I wouldn't mind so much.
At the very least, some dinosaurs should have tail sweeps that might knock an opponent down, swallow whole, and perhaps give a few of them poison attacks . . . rakes and pounces make sense as well for smaller dinosaurs.
Just Four? Ahhhh come on.
Seriously go with the classics, T-Rex, Raptor, Triceratops, Pterodactyl.
Wow, I entirely forgot about flying dinosaurs -- good call, Andre.
CR
I liked that Eberron (and later, 4e) included dinosaurs, but using english names for them. For example, instead of a T-rex, it's called a Swordtooth Titan, and the Pteranodon is called a Glidewing. 4e even went so far as to use the term "behemoth" instead of "dinosaur".
Please, no. Calling a T-Rex a tyrant lizard wouldn't bug me, but giving it some "snazzy" 4E style name doesn't do anything for me.
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Creative Director
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I liked that Eberron (and later, 4e) included dinosaurs, but using english names for them. For example, instead of a T-rex, it's called a Swordtooth Titan, and the Pteranodon is called a Glidewing. 4e even went so far as to use the term "behemoth" instead of "dinosaur".
While I understand the reasoning behind renaming dinosaurs like this, I disagree wholeheartedly with it. Everyone knows what a tyrannosaurus is, but something like a swordtooth titan sounds like a trading card monster to me; it certainly doesn't immediately conjure to mind the image of a dinosaur in a reflexive manner.
In any case, dinosaur names were invented the way they are so that they'd be the same in any language. With that reasoning, it's more accurate to rename creatures like "cat" and "coyote" and "gorilla," whose names are not constant across languages.
The word "behemoth" has much different mythological connotations than being a dinosaur if you go one direction, and in the other direction it's an excellent word for ANY huge monster or animal. Turning it into a specific word that applies to the word "dinosaur" is foolish, since there's already a word for dinosaur that everyone understands.
If someone REALLY wants to call a dinosaur by a more descriptive name, why not just translate its actual name from the latin to your language? That makes a tyrannosaurs in English into a "Tyrant Lizard." A much better name than swordtooth titan (especially since in the game, a "titan" isn't a reptile at all anyway).
In the PF RPG, dinosaurs will have the names that they have in real life.
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Just Four? Ahhhh come on.
Seriously go with the classics, T-Rex, Raptor, Triceratops, Pterodactyl.
Wow, I entirely forgot about flying dinosaurs -- good call, Andre.
CR
I said the exact same four he did, before he did, and I get no props?
*Goes and sulks in a corner, all emo-like, eyeing the kitchen knife...*
;)
1) 6 (#2 plus Plesiasaur and Pteradactyl)
2) T-rex, Triceratops, Diplodocus, and Velociraptor
3) 's alright
4) 's okay
5) You mean like turning Dilophosaurus into "spitters" in Jurassic Park? I'm fine with that. To a point. An icon like T-rex shouldn't be anything but really big teeth, IMHO.
6) I hate the simplicity of hitting ANY animal with an INT damaging effect and bypassing the encounter. Most animals have an INT of 2 or 3. When that's knocked down to 0, the animal passes out. Doesn't matter how tough the animal is, it's probably going down on round one. BORING!
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Creative Director
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I note that most folk in this thread are calling them "raptors" instead of deinonychuses. Since raptor is actually a word I'd like to save for a generic word for things like hawks and falcons and eagles, though, I'm increasingly fond of going with "velociraptor" for these guys instead of deinonychus. Especially since when you alphabetize them it ends up placing the velociraptor and the tyrannosaur in close proximity, which pleases my inner OCD dinosaur urges...
Just Four? Ahhhh come on.
Seriously go with the classics, T-Rex, Raptor, Triceratops, Pterodactyl.
Wow, I entirely forgot about flying dinosaurs -- good call, Andre.
CR
I said the exact same four he did, before he did, and I get no props?
*Goes and sulks in a corner, all emo-like, eyeing the kitchen knife...*
;)
I'll give yah props for it.
TTFN Dre
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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1. Four at a minimum is a good amount, but no more than six for space reasons. While it is possible to almost do an entire Bestiary on Dinosuars, most fall into categories that can serve as a base.
2. Triceratops, Tyranasaurus, Pteradactyl/Pterandon, Diplodocus/Apatosaurus (Brontosaurus).
These are generally the most recognized dinosuar species. If you are looking at up to six, others you could also include are Stegosaurus, either a Deinonychus/Velociraptor, Parasauolophus or an aquatic such as Elasmosaurus.
Further Bestiaries would expand on these with 2-4 entries per book.
3. This is actually a decent idea.
You could add a base creature from each category (something like 6-8 Dinosaurs) with rules on how to Advance each Base creature to come up with bigger, nastier critters. The only problem I can see with this is that it would take up quite a bit of space, something along the lines of two pages per Dinosaur entry (one page for Stats and background on the "category" and one page for advancement options for different sub-species).
This also begs the question of what to include as advancements for each "category": do you start with something like a (Pro)Compsognathus and have rules to advance that base through Dilophosaurus, Velociraptors (and their variations), Carnotaurus all the way up to Tyranosaurus and even Spinosaurus. They are all completely different species but obviously for space restrictions you can't include them all, so this makes sense from that perspective. This also doesn't stop you from actually doing the stats for specific Dinosaurs within a "category" at a later stage.
4. See 3.
5. I like this idea, you mean something like the Dilophasuarus' glob spiting ability ala Jurassic Park?
Once again due to space restrictions however, I am wondering how it could be put into effectwithout dramatically increasing the page count for the Dinosaur entry. The only way I see it is either with a page or two at the end (or beginning) of the Dinosuar entries detailing speacial abilities and how to apply them to any Base Dinosaur, or including them in with the "Variations and Advancements" page as I said above.
6. Not really with how they have been statted up, just that some of them have the feel of being Fantasy Dinosuars (latter MM's), rather than actual Dinosaurs. I prefer them to be grounded in their real world counterparts and then being given the tools to turn them into your own fantastical variations.
EDIT:
EDIT EDIT:
Heck do it this way, if the Dino was a Dinobot, then he's in the book +1 more.
Ha I love this reasoning. Dinobots FTW!!!
Just Four? Ahhhh come on.
Seriously go with the classics, T-Rex, Raptor, Triceratops, Pterodactyl.
Wow, I entirely forgot about flying dinosaurs -- good call, Andre.
CR
I said the exact same four he did, before he did, and I get no props?
*Goes and sulks in a corner, all emo-like, eyeing the kitchen knife...*
;)
Oops, sorry Houstonderek. I'm going to maintain the props I gave to Andre, as I don't want to get involved in prob-backs, but I will note for the record that you are also due an attaboy.
CR
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Creative Director
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6) I hate the simplicity of hitting ANY animal with an INT damaging effect and bypassing the encounter. Most animals have an INT of 2 or 3. When that's knocked down to 0, the animal passes out. Doesn't matter how tough the animal is, it's probably going down on round one. BORING!
That's actually a pretty good point to consider, but not one that should be fixed in the dinosaur pages in the monster book. It's best fixed by avoiding the creation of easilly atainable effects that can reduce INT to 0. Down to 1 is fine... but things like the touch of idiocy spell need to be fixed.
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I hate the simplicity of hitting ANY animal with an INT damaging effect and bypassing the encounter. Most animals have an INT of 2 or 3. When that's knocked down to 0, the animal passes out. Doesn't matter how tough the animal is, it's probably going down on round one. BORING!
Maybe a rule that reducing Int to zero doesn't send you unconscious, it simply makes you incapable of rational thought. This would still be the kiss of death for a member of any PC race, but for animals who act on instinct anyway, it makes barely any difference.
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Creative Director
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I hate the simplicity of hitting ANY animal with an INT damaging effect and bypassing the encounter. Most animals have an INT of 2 or 3. When that's knocked down to 0, the animal passes out. Doesn't matter how tough the animal is, it's probably going down on round one. BORING!Maybe a rule that reducing Int to zero doesn't send you unconscious, it simply makes you incapable of rational thought. This would still be the kiss of death for a member of any PC race, but for animals who act on instinct anyway, it makes barely any difference.
That's not a bad idea, actually... I also like how that gives a bit more variety in what happens when an ability score is reduced to zero.
That's not a bad idea, actually... I also like how that gives a bit more variety in what happens when an ability score is reduced to zero.
I'd certainly have a lot of fun roleplaying intelligent monsters or PCs whose Intelligence had been reduced to zero but who remained physically functional. That's much better than just lapsing into a coma or a torpor.
CR
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I personally can't get enough dinosaurs in D&D. The Savage Tide adventure path is one of my favorites for that very reason. Nothing beats the look on the faces of the pirates when they saw my Paladin bounding down to the Farshore docks mounted on an allosaurus...
I think 5 or 6 is a good number for the dinosaurs in pathfinder. If you make too many, it gets a little confusing and redundant.
Of the four I'd like to see, there's the T-rex (obviously), the velociraptor, some huge herbivore like the apatosaurus, and jusr for kicks, the parasaurolophus ala Savage Tide, cause I think they look cool.
As for giving them special abilities, I think it's a fine idea. I bring up the dilophosaurus from Jurassic Park that spit poison. Maybe the parasaurolophus has some kind of sonic attack from it's hammerhead thing.
Nothing really bugged me about previous dinosaurs really.
Three things just came to mind.
1. Don't forget Sea Dinos.
2. Don't make T-Rex into a scavager.
3. As for special powers, in my homebrew game (which might get published someday, it could happen) I have the Lizardfolk be far more advanced race then in most games, but the focuse of that advancement in via Druidic Magic. They use such magics to alter many dinos into useful creatures. Genetic Minipulation via magic. My insperation for this was the West of Eden books by Harry Harrison. If you have not read them they are a must.
I could see such magics work as templates, Sea Dinos enlarged as living ships with a Trasport template.
That might beyond the scope of the book, but it'd make more sense then T-Rex with lasers or atomic breath. On seconed thought keep that atomic breath.
Godzilla Lives!
TTFN Dre
Zero Int. idea is far better then sleep by default. That's in my game from now on.
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Maybe a rule that reducing Int to zero doesn't send you unconscious, it simply makes you incapable of rational thought. This would still be the kiss of death for a member of any PC race, but for animals who act on instinct anyway, it makes barely any difference.
That's not a bad idea, actually... I also like how that gives a bit more variety in what happens when an ability score is reduced to zero.
Changing the spells (like Touch of Idiocy) seems to be on the cards, given the comments on page 389.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In effect, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than one.
However, it's not just the spells; I was thinking of poisons.
You shouldn't be able to slaughter a comatose T-Rex because you fed it a basket of Id Moss, and waited for it to roll a 1. All you'd do is make it pissed at you. It could still smell you, and chase you in its euphoric haze, and keep eating, despite no longer being hungry.You might be able to hope it does something stupidly suicidal, like try to hump a dragon, I suppose...
You might be able to hope it does something stupidly suicidal, like try to hump a dragon, I suppose...
Someone did that to a Lizard, and thats how dinos were created. Look it up I'm serious.
TTFN Dre
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Diplodocus, Tyrannosaurus Rex, and Pteranadon. The fact that a selection of these used to drive around the country in a giant haystack in stories I used to write when I was waaaaay younger has everything to do with this choice.
What?
Did they travel around solving crimes?Or were they famous musicians, like The Osmonds or The Partridge Family?
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Definitely no more than 1 or 2 dozen dinosaurs.;P I love dinos!
Absolutely must have pterosaurs of some sort.
I would like to see something with tail armament done in the book, like an Anklysaur or Stegasaur.
I would like to see effects like photosensitive skin for camouflage(chameleon), spitting poison(spitting cobra), poison/diseased bites(like a komodo dragon), possibly some minor sonic stunning effects if appropriate, pounce, rend, bleed, scent, etc....Basically looking toward modern reptile defensive and offensive capabilities and adapting them.
Also I think the Swallow Whole rules suck in general. Most people in D&D would rather just be swallowed and fight out of a T-rex belly than stand toe-to-toe with them. Being swallowed should be scary as hell, instead of a good tactical choice. Maybe make the victim have to do opposed grapple checks(as a free action) with a penalty to the roll to take an action, like pulling out a blade, or attacking. Also I would eliminate the "I take a full attack action on his innerds, Oh! 9,312 damage on 5 attacks! How's that feel Mr. Rex!" by only allowing single actions(move or standard) to be taken.
Wow. That's a lot of votes of confidence in that idea.
I should have a by-line in the credits...Robert 'Snorter' Feather, Animal-Friend, Saviour of Moronic Tyrannosaurs!
Steady - is that something you want on your tombstone?
And if you're on-line now where's my e-mail response to our latest PBP?!
Sorry to thread jack, but Bob never answers his mails in a timely fashion, nor does he answer his mobile (won't ring his land line at this time of night) and ignores facebook responses.
What's a player to do?
Ahem. Just to put my choices in, I'd go for:
Triceratops
T-Rex
Pterodactyl
Stegosaurus
Velociraptor
Diploducus
And in terms of abilities:
Armoured, intelligent ones with a moral/behavioural code? Works for polar bears and transformers! The ones we know are degenerate, brainless ones that got the eugenics boot up their arse and got exiled, generations ago. The advanced 'saurs are now hugely embarrassed about the whole thing and take great pains to avoid any contact.
Heck, some 'primitive' dinos are almost there anyway, if you believe Jurassic Park.
Way I see it - the more plot you can throw at a bunch of related creatures the better!
Also I think the Swallow Whole rules suck in general. Most people in D&D would rather just be swallowed and fight out of a T-rex belly than stand toe-to-toe with them. Being swallowed should be scary as hell, instead of a good tactical choice. Maybe make the victim have to do opposed grapple checks(as a free action) with a penalty to the roll to take an action, like pulling out a blade, or attacking. Also I would eliminate the "I take a full attack action on his innerds, Oh! 9,312 damage on 5 attacks! How's that feel Mr. Rex!" by only allowing single actions(move or standard) to be taken.
No No NO! I had a Druid with a T-Rex companion once who had all sorts of swords daggers and axes sticking out of his belly because I kept healing him before they could gut Little Katie.
Actually I would have them grapple against the stomach musles and take acid damage every round. A fail means acid damage but you can take no action whatsoever.
Or even better give the T-Rex the chance to spit out the weapon, you laugh but just try feeding a dog a pill.
TTFN Dre
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If four is the limit, go with the four generics:
Tyrannosaur
Ceratopsian
Sauropod
Dromaeosaur
Make the stat block for the "weakest" example of the Family, and explain how increasing the hit dice turns into this dinosaur, than this one, and so on. For the most part, the big four are all an awful lot a like.
Then, the question is if we're going to count Pterosaurs and Aquatic Reptiles as dinosaurs. I hope not, honestly.
If it's four in addition to the four workhorses, how about Mononykus, Tsintaosaurus, Falcarius, and Parvicursor, just to show how diverse dinosaurs really were?
And for Gozreh's sake, please direct the artists to current reference information for all of the dinosaurs, pterosaurs, and aquatic reptiles you include!
James, if I may call you James.
Just had another idea. Why not do 10 Dinos, Dinobots +5 more. With litttle to no fluff. Then do a Classic Dino's Revisted book (or two hint hint).
I think you'd have a market for it.
TTFN Dre
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I note that most folk in this thread are calling them "raptors" instead of deinonychuses. Since raptor is actually a word I'd like to save for a generic word for things like hawks and falcons and eagles, though, I'm increasingly fond of going with "velociraptor" for these guys instead of deinonychus. Especially since when you alphabetize them it ends up placing the velociraptor and the tyrannosaur in close proximity, which pleases my inner OCD dinosaur urges...
The problem with velociraptors is that, unlike how they were portrayed in Jurrasic Park, they're the sized of small-medium dogs.
Oh, and can we get some feathers on deinonychus /velociraptors?
Also, I'd love to see a microraptor as a familiar option? Pretty please. :)
Heck do it this way, if the Dino was a Dinobot, then he's in the book +1 more. My choice would be Raptor. That's six Dinos thats a good number.
Actually, that's a damned good line of though....
Just had another idea. Why not do 10 Dinos, Dinobots +5 more. With litttle to no fluff. Then do a Classic Dino's Revisted book (or two hint hint).
And then you made it even better.
Steady - and if you're online now where's my e-mail response to our latest PBP?!Your world goes black...
How's that?
Wanker.
A proper response. And at least put in some thread-relevant stuff if you're posting!
How about clerical dinosaurs? Certain 'scientists' here argue that the fossil record was a test by him upstairs - what if in Golarion it wes actually true?
By the way, would I be wrong if I said that Velociraptors were kinda little Tyrannosaurs?
Apols if I'm simplifying this way too much - just trying to maximise use for minimum page count.
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I note that most folk in this thread are calling them "raptors" instead of deinonychuses. Since raptor is actually a word I'd like to save for a generic word for things like hawks and falcons and eagles, though, I'm increasingly fond of going with "velociraptor" for these guys instead of deinonychus. Especially since when you alphabetize them it ends up placing the velociraptor and the tyrannosaur in close proximity, which pleases my inner OCD dinosaur urges...The problem with velociraptors is that, unlike how they were portrayed in Jurrasic Park, they're the sized of small-medium dogs.
Oh, and can we get some feathers on deinonychus /velociraptors?
Also, I'd love to see a microraptor as a familiar option? Pretty please. :)
There are Utahraptors which were closer to the size of those portrayed in Jurrasic Park.
3. As for special powers, in my homebrew game (which might get published someday, it could happen) I have the Lizardfolk be far more advanced race then in most games, but the focuse of that advancement in via Druidic Magic. They use such magics to alter many dinos into useful creatures. Genetic Minipulation via magic. My insperation for this was the West of Eden books by Harry Harrison. If you have not read them they are a must.
Yes, that was a great series, and it definitely had a pulpy feel I could see somewhere in Golarion,
maybe in the part of Garund that runs off the map, and/or (as it was in the books) in some sort of South America analogue (it would be cool to introduce them into the Sodden Lands as colonists from a western continent). Of course, I would expand on the book by giving them a "servant" race of Human(oid)s either gene-altered themselves, or with grafts/parasitic control organisms.