Psionics are a pet of mine, especially 3rd ed. So while it seems like people have already stated most of my thoughts I want to state (or restate as the case may be), I LOVE the power point system!!! Psionics AREN'T just spells that you can fling out, they are powers that you learn to use just by harnessing the power of your mind or soul. It should be a more fluid system than "x level 1 spells/day, x level2 spells/day, ect" the power point system conveyed that beautifully.
Im wondering when and if modules will come out with psionic based NPC's and monsters built in.
So far the only creature (that I've seen) that used psionic powers in a Pathfinder product has been Seugathi monster in "Pathfinder: Chronicles Into the Darklands" and in that case it was presented as an option to replace the spell-like abilities it was also presented with (like how there were psionic aboleths and such in the Expanded Psionics Handbook).
One issue that I have with psionics popping up is that, in most cases, they either have to also present it with spells (as another option) or be quite a bit harder to use for people without the Expanded Psionics Handbook. You can't really run a creature with psionic powers right now if you just have the Core Rulebook and that might be a turn off for a lot of people.
One issue that I have with psionics popping up is that, in most cases, they either have to also present it with spells (as another option) or be quite a bit harder to use for people without the Expanded Psionics Handbook. You can't really run a creature with psionic powers right now if you just have the Core Rulebook and that might be a turn off for a lot of people.
Presenting NPC villains with both spells/spell like abilities and optional psionic powers list would be actually very acceptable in my mind. Im tired of changing an existing NPC wizard/sorcerer into a psionic based NPC and keep it balanced. Having NPC’s already set with the psionic option would be nice for those of use that do use and run psionics in our games.
Currently I’m substituting the dragon NPC villain in the Blood of Dragons module with one I created that uses psionics rather than magic.
... Myself, I tend to run meatgrinder adventures with several encounters per day and no recourse for the party to retreat and rest without failing to meet the adventure objective (in other words, no 15-minute adventuring day), so I've never had a problem with Nova psions breaking the game.
Apologies for being late in responding, but this is -- I submit -- a critical point. Like Disciple of Sakura, I've found that the 'meat grinder' approach works extremely well for inculcating new tactics and perspectives in a party that might otherwise be inclined to "nova" in the face of the enemy.
With proper enforcement of in-game pressure, the player who chooses to "empty their magazine" in the first firefight will quickly find their character eliminated. I'm particularly fond of apply cinematic effects in such encounters ... making the player run in panic from an enemy that they can no longer affect, and that intends to toy with them before killing them.
Hold the players accountable for their actions in-game, and they'll either learn to conform to your expectations, or they'll self-terminate. Either way, it solves the DM's problem.
-KHu
Here is a concept that I could see working in Glorion.
Psionics is a recessive quality that has been for the most part lost for quite some time. It first surfaced in the old kingdom of Azlant as the Aboleths tinkered with humans ... (snip)
No one, not even the Gods have commented about this event and none if any of these new "psionicly" talented individuals have any special connection to Aroden, or for that matter have any answer to what became of him.
Most of these people have kept their secret hidden away, sometimes passing themselves off as another type of spell caster such as a sorcerer. A very few have displayed their talents openly and like many oddities have been snatched away by who knows what. Speculation includes curious fell wizards, or even worse, creatures that would haunt the deep seas or dark underworld.
This is a phenomenal spin on incorporating the psionics rules -- any psionics rules, old or new -- into Golarion. Wonderful work, Herald. Bravo!
By playing to the power source itself as a thing of mystery and contention, you give GMs and players alike tons of ready-made plot hooks to weave into their stories. This makes the rules, races and classes more enticing for hard-core role players, even if the actual game mechanics turn out to be at parity or underpowered compared to the base classes.
I just went back and re-read all 703 previous posts in this thread (it's been a really bad day at work), and I think that this issue may be at the heart of many of the posters' complaints: when you get past the "nova controversy," you see an awful lot of people who gravitate towards the XPH and the third-party psionics books specifically because they introduce a new, exotic and appealing option for the player who's jaded with the classic standards.
If the PFRPG design team keeps this in mind, I suspect that the resulting psionic product will be warmly received by the community.
KHu
I'd be partial to having a sizable enclave of these individuals having fled to Vudra, perhaps via Jalmeray. ... The 'mystical' lore of India fits better with psionics than magic, IMO.
That was my thinking on the concept. Even if there was a sudden boom in their population, I'd still say it would be small blip on the radar so to speak ... Hermea might make a great location for the Elans, considering the experimentation going on there with Humans. Then again, a few isolated cells here and there might also be interesting.
Much praise to Set and Herald for this discussion. It's got a lot going for it. If I may, I'd like to expand on two of the ideas that they presented:
First, although we've spent a lot of time arguing the merits of the psion as an arcane blaster replacement, we haven't dealt much at all with the possibilities inherent in the psionic character as a melee-focused character. I submit that if you broaden your scope of psionics from spell-like effects (e.g., telepathy and fireballs) to include the various martial arts stories, there's a strong place for psionic races, classes and powers that deviate significantly from the arcane-blaster model.
For example, a character who emulates a different class (say, a Wilder or Divine Mind who wears armor, wields martial weapons effectively, makes good use of non-psionic feats, etc.) is effectively no different in-game from any other "normal" build up until the point where they use their hidden psionic "edge" to pull off something amazing.
For example, a psionicist finds herself outclasses in a sword duel, so he swift-manifests offensive prescience and turns the tide by attacking and reacting impossibly fast. Or a psionicist surrounded in a packed brawl manifests a power and a ring of enemies is suddenly thrown back by a ring telekenetic force. These can be exciting and dramatic tools for giving your players a way to overcome their foes in-game in a flavor-rich manner.
You could accomplish much the same with spells, SLAs or SNAs, but (I submit) the psionic way is more exciting. If you base your character on their spells or powers as their primary fighting capability, they'll always favor that (i.e., a wizard can shoot you with a crossbow, but will plan to attack with spells, wands and scrolls whenever possible). If the characters have a fair ability play through most battles like a fighter, cleric or rogue and then use psionics to opportunistically seize victory, I think that makes the game much more exciting. It adds mystery, surprise and RP potential to nearly any desperate encounter.
The fine folks at Dreamscarred Press have taken this idea and run with it in their design for the "Morphean" basic class (buy it at Paizo's storefront)(seriously). This 20 level psionicist is effectively a haunted creature who is able to use his/her psionic (telepathic) energy to liberate the nightmares that every creature can experience via dreaming with a touch. Just by caressing the target, the Morphean can unleash all manner of physiological damage and fear effects (e.g., shaken, panicked, paralyzed, etc.) in their opponents. This is a really exciting way to tap into the heart of the psionic power source (mind powers, dreams etc.) and be effective in a party without ever stepping in to the arcane or divine spellcasters' territory.
The second point I'd like to expand on is the idea of all this psionic talent and energy lurking hidden in the general population. This presents the DM with a wonderful story booster. Giving the players a sound in-game reason to keep their psionic power(s) low key makes them all the more memorable and exciting when they do finally come on stage.
As an in-game example of this, I needed to put an NPC healer into a Ravenloft-style side quest for 14th level PCs. Rather than a stock divine caster, I put a Wilder in the story with the Life Mantle (mantled wilder variant from Mind's Eye). The NPC only had two moments on center-stage: when she manifested claws of the beast to escape a bad guy, and when she used psionic revivify to bring back a slain PC in the last three rounds of fighting. Using the psionic race, class and powers made a huge impression on my players. Of all the nasty things I did to their characters in that side quest, they remembered that exotic and dramatic NPC the most -- primarily because they had thought of her as a stock (normal) NPC until the very end of the adventure, when her hidden talents came to the fore.
As a second example, I brought a multi-class psion into a game in the rogue role for an established party, and used his powers and feats to subtly augment his archery for three character levels. The character's power source and not-quite-right way of doing things became a significant in-game motivator for most of the other players, which led to several rich RP scenes and a few horrifying psionic monster encounters.
I contend that in both of these examples, a conventional basic class character would have had to work three times as hard to get the same dramatic effect on the party. A little psionics can serve as a wonderfully powerful and rich highlight -- when applied sparingly.
Hopefully, the PFRPG guys are still reading this thread. If you are, please take these ideas into consideration:
1. Don't restrict your application of psionics exclusively to the arcane-blaster role in the party;
(a) think about how to add more psionic "boost" potential to conventional characters, and also
(b) think about how to make it possible for mostly-psionic characters to function in-game without having to rely mostly or entirely on their psionics to be effective
2. Dig deep into the story potential of the power source itself to give us exotic, enticing character paths and augments that we can use to enhance characters arcs inside otherwise conventional adventures.
Thanks for listening.
Cheers,
KHu
Hopefully, the PFRPG guys are still reading this thread. If you are, please take these ideas into consideration:
1. Don't restrict your application of psionics exclusively to the arcane-blaster role in the party;
(a) think about how to add more psionic "boost" potential to conventional characters, and also
(b) think about how to make it possible for mostly-psionic characters to function in-game without having to rely mostly or entirely on their psionics to be effective2. Dig deep into the story potential of the power source itself to give us exotic, enticing character paths and augments that we can use to enhance characters arcs inside otherwise conventional adventures.
Thanks for listening.
Cheers,
KHu
i agree 100% with all of this. i would really enjoy seeing a psi based class that didnt rely on powers like a magic using class does.
i have designed a psi-ranger class that is just that.HD: D8
Base Attack: +1
Save: +2
Skill Points: 4 + Int Modifier X 4,
4 points plus Int. modifier per-lvl after.
Attack Fort Ref Will
·1) +1 - 2 - 0 - 2
·2) +2 - 3 - 0 - 3
·3) +3 - 3 - 1 - 1
·4) +4 - 4 - 1 - 4
·5) +5 - 4 - 1 - 4
·6) +6 - 5 - 2 - 5
·7) +6/1 - 5 - 2 - 5
·8) +6/1 - 6 - 2 - 6
·9) +7/2 - 6 - 3 - 6
·10) +8/3 - 7 - 3 - 7
·11) +9/4 - 7 - 3 - 7
·12) +10/5 - 8 - 4 - 8
·13) +11/6/1 - 8 - 4 - 8
·14) +12/7/2 - 9 - 4 - 9
·15) +13/8/3 - 9 - 5 - 9
·16) +14/9/4 - 10 - 5 - 10
Special: the Psi-Ranger resieves a bonus feat at first and at second, then one every 3 levels there after. The Psi-Ranger gains one defense and attack mode starting at forth, then one every other level from then on.
1) Track, bonus feat, Favored Enemy
2) Bonus Feat
3) –
4) 1 each Psionic defense and attack modes
5) Bonus Feat
6) Weapon Specialization, 1 psionic attack mode
7) –
8) Bonus Feat, defense mode
9) –
10) Attack mode
11) Bonus Feat
12) Defense mode
13) –
14) Attack mode, Bonus Feat
15) –
16) Defense mode
Power points per day starting at 4th level: 25 plus modifier from main discipline ability score.The Psi-ranger gains 1/PP per level thereafter.
--------------------------Powers per day starting at 4th -------------------------------
---- 0 - 1 - 2 - 3- 4- 5- 6 - 7 - 8 -9
1) - 3 - 1
2) - 4 - 2
3) - 4 - 2 - 1
4) - 5 - 3 - 2
5) - 5 - 3 - 2 - 1
6) - 5 - 3 - 3 - 2
7) - 6 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1
8) - 6 - 4 - 3 - 3 - 2
9) - 6 - 4 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1
10) - 6 - 4 - 4 - 3 - 3- 2
·Bonus feats must be chosen from psionic feats list only
·Psi-Rangers can only chose to learn powers from 1 Discipline and can only gain powers from that discipline. all other powers are considerd opposed disciplines and cannot be learned; ie. a telikenetic cannot learn or use powers from a metacreative discipline.
History
From birth, his elders suppress the Psi-Rangers access to his own powers until he reaches a set time in his life. Upon reaching 4th level he gains access to his powers as if at first level. Bread and raised to be able to better defend their kind from the Illithid and there ilk. Suppressing the psionic abilities allowed the young Psi-Ranger to better hone his skills as a Ranger with out fear of detection or attack from Mind Flayers.
Weapons and Armor
The Psi-Ranger has access to all light and medium armors, shields, simple and martial weapons. Note, any armor heavier than leather armor, check penalties apply to skills relying on Dex.
Races
The Psi-Ranger class is open to any race.
Tracking
Psi-Rangers gains “Track” (same as feat by the same name) as a class feature at first level
Favored Enemy
There is only One Favored Enemy for the Psi-Ranger, that of the Mind Flayer.
Prestige Classes
The Psi-Ranger’s favored prestige class, that of the Slayer He also excels at the Blood Hound and the Deep Wood Sniper.
Abilities:
Dexterity and Constitution are the ideal abilities for the Psi-Ranger. Bolstering both defensive and survivability.
If you like it, use it. I dont care. though if it ends up in a psi class book by paizo, i would like a mention.....:)
I like Psionics in my fantasy . Eberron is one of my favorite settings in part because of how they intergrated psionics into the setting. I don't have the expanded PsHB , nor am I going to buy it for $40+S/H. So I'd buy a Paizo Psionic book. Not sure about a Paizo-ized ExPsionics HB though but , as I said I don't own or have not read ExPSHB I can't debate it's merits. If I'm going to buy & support Pathfinder RPG , whether I use the Pathfinder Chronicles CS or FR or especially Eberron I'll want a Paizo Psionics book at least somewhat compatible with the previous rules.
An older post, but since it's been going on for a while, I may as well weigh in on this one. If I repeat information, then that's because I didn't feel like reading 15 pages of waaaargablblblble about psionics. I hear enough of that with my group :)
Psionics is the second thing done with D&D. Literally, the fourth book released for the various editions of D&D are usually psionic. Look up Eldritch Wizardry sometime; it was fourth "collector's edition" D&D books printed back in the early 70's, and detailed stuff like Demons, Gods, and a strange power called psionics. The fourth 3rd Edition book was the much-cursed Psionics Handbook, and the fourth 3.5 book was the (slightly) better received Expanded Psionics Handbook.
I don't use it, myself. I've used the Vancian system for so long, it's practically how I think. A friend of mine, though, swears by psionics. He's been playing psionically gifted characters since 1st Edition, where the rule was that during character creation, you had to roll a 95 on a D% to be psionic. That was almost on par with making a paladin or a bard back then.
But psionics were always there. It doesn't feel right if there isn't a massively broke form of magic looming over the horizon, just waiting to spring on your campaign. I've been lucky, since only ONE friend is a psionics fan, and everyone else avoids it like the plague. But I've seen the downside to psionics, which is the same problem with vancian magic only more so: the lure to blow all your power points for three rounds of god-like power is huge. So huge, that I've often seen my psion friend giving everyone the finger because they're telling him to pull more horrifically powerful abilities out of thin air, but he's out of points.
I'd almost be tempted to say that psionics don't need much in the way of conversion. Most of the way that the casters work in Pathfinder are reminiscent of psions and wilders. Especially wilders. The only real conversion required would be something along the lines of the at-will cantrips. Detect Psionics at will doesn't seem too bad, for example.