That's like saying you don't see the need of having duskblades and beguilers when you have mage-rogues and fighter-mages (some may even agree with you).
Provided that psionics is fully compatible (transparent & equivalent) with arcane/divine magic, the psion is just another type of caster. (We'll ignore the ignominy of Complete Psionic for now.)
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It should possibly be noted (Even though of course people can/should modify it as they desire for their own game) that there is already information on psionics in Golarion. The Pathfinder Chronicles: Campaign Setting has a couple pages on psionics in the setting (Where it is most common. How people react to it. Etc) and a small bit in the Half-Elf racial entry referring to psionics in that race.
In addition, if I recall correctly, there is also a bit within Into the Darklands which talks about a few more psionic races that live underneath the ground of the Inner Sea region.
I missed that, I was mostly riffing off the top of my head.
That's like saying you don't see the need of having duskblades and beguilers when you have mage-rogues and fighter-mages (some may even agree with you).
Short of a multi-class caster patch (which is the origin of both those classes), I don't. I'd rather multi-classing rules be robust enough to allow the existing base classes to fill those niches.
Provided that psionics is fully compatible (transparent & equivalent) with arcane/divine magic, the psion is just another type of caster. (We'll ignore the ignominy of Complete Psionic for now.)
Which is exactly my point; psionics is a third wheel. Where's the payoff?
There's a Metric tonne (two Ns & an E!) of third wheels and redundancy in the "complete" 3rd Ed system, 90% of it catering to someone somewhere who likes that sort of thing. I, for one, love options and, for another, really like spell-point systems too.
There's a Metric tonne (two Ns & an E!) of third wheels and redundancy in the "complete" 3rd Ed system, 90% of it catering to someone somewhere who likes that sort of thing. I, for one, love options and, for another, really like spell-point systems too.
Awesome. You're totally entitled to have (and express) your opinion; that is what the thread is for, after all. My opinion remains "meh...what's the point?"
For the record, I wish the core 3E magic system had been more like psionics, but that is really beside the point.
I think the 3.x psionics were much of a hogwash. The way I see it, psionics should be roleplayed, not pinned down with mechanics.
I make a psionic with powers over the minds and bodies of others - and on my character sheet you see a sorcerer with emphasis on enchantment magics. In fact, a wizard of the universal school is (according to the school powers) pretty much what I think a psionic should be.
How I think psionics should be handled:
A book that expands magic within pathfinder to include psionics. This implies new schools for wizards, new bloodlines for sorcerers, new spells and feats, and a set of psionic-flavored prestige classes.
I think it is important that the existing Pathfinder structure for magic is and remains the core mechanic of both magic and psionics. The flavor should emphasize that magic and psionics are largely subtle nuances of the same side of the same coin.
A spell like Mage Hand is for all intents and purposes the perfect example of the equivalence of psionics and magic. Any effort that is made to recreate the effects of Mage Hand with some new psionics flavored mechanic is a meaningless exercise that does not improve the game, but merely adds to it.
So, start work on:
Pathfinder - Secrets Within
New player options for wizards and sorcerers
Yes I know that this is waaaaaay late in the game, but I just had to voice my opinion on this one. So here goes.
It seems to me like a vocal and forthright minority of d20 players REALLY like psionics as written, and would like to see us publish something for which backwards compatibility is the primary design goal.
Yes. And thank you for that. I firmly believe that the primary reason that Pathfinder is doing well is it's backwards compatibility. As long as this remains one of your primary design philosophies PF will do well and have loyal customers. I'm one of them. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.
So I'm asking you:
What does Psionics mean to you?
From my perspective psionics has two flavors (much as magic has the two flavors of arcane and divine). And these flavors are as seperate from magic as ki is from magic.
The first is mental energy of the brain and nervous system made manifest; mind over matter. This includes telepathy, telekinesis, pyrokinesis, cryokinesis, clairvoyance and, yes, even psychometabolism.
The second flavor is that of the ancient, alien and ungodly powerful beings on the edge of reality whose conscientiousness's extend in all directions. Cthuluesque entities who lend their powers out (consciously or unconsciously) to adherents. This includes mind flayers (and their elder brains) and "mental rewritings of reality", such as pschoportation and metacreativity.
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
Write it! :) Keep the point system, classes and races. Give it the pathfinder flavor. Don't be scared to fix loopholes and tweak rules and powers. (I have faith in you and yours.)
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
Replacing the existing point based system with something else. Psionics will never have a true place at the gaming table until it stops being overhauled again and again. It's time to accept the current system and revise specific problems (much like the revision of 3.0 to 3.5, and now to 3.PF).
Thanks again for the give-and-take. --Erik
Your welcome. :) And thank you. I firmly believe that psionics has a place in Pathfinder and Golarion. It has potential and promise. It just needs a little love.
P.S. Eric, James, are you still checking this thread from time to time or has it's 600+ posts caused you to go blind at your computer?
I missed that, I was mostly riffing off the top of my head.It should possibly be noted (Even though of course people can/should modify it as they desire for their own game) that there is already information on psionics in Golarion. The Pathfinder Chronicles: Campaign Setting has a couple pages on psionics in the setting (Where it is most common. How people react to it. Etc) and a small bit in the Half-Elf racial entry referring to psionics in that race.
In addition, if I recall correctly, there is also a bit within Into the Darklands which talks about a few more psionic races that live underneath the ground of the Inner Sea region.
Yeah, and your idea was interesting. I just wanted to note because some others in thread have seemed to not know that psionics were in the setting (either asking for it to be added, or asking for it to be excluded).
The funny thing is that I think an overwhelming majority of d20 gamers are OK with the idea of telepaths, empaths, psychics, and the "concept" of psionics.
And yet a lot of them do not allow the current (or any previous, let's be honest) version of the psionics rules in their campaign.
I am convinced there is an audience for a Pathfinder RPG Psionics book.
I am uncertain how to proceed from that basic assumption.
So I'm asking you:
What does Psionics mean to you?
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
I always thought psionics was cool. My favorite AD&D psionics power was the one where you could sit in the sun and photosynthesize to heal: so freaky, so useful. Things like "Hear Light" and "See Sound" are just weird and cool.
But AD&D psionics was broken and prone to abuse. 3e was better, primarily because of psionics-magic transparency.
Another major problem was that DMs were unaccustomed to controlling psions in the way they were accustomed to controlling wizards. Wizards can get out of hand unless you take their spellbooks, use monsters with spell resistance, break their concentration, counterspelling, enemy spellcasters, &c. With psions, OTOH, fewer DMs built NPC psions, psionic monsters and threats, that would hamper the psion's ability to run rampant. Aboleths, mind flayers, and duergar were easier to run with spell-like abilities and magic.
Then again, a minority of psion feats and powers just struck people as weird and overpowered rather than just cool. I always thought "Up the Walls" was just strange. And whitefire kind of intruded on the wizard's AoEs. Dark Sun was interesting, but nobody could modularly use that stuff in a normal campaign. Psionic combat was a great idea that never seemed like it had a great execution.
The third major problem was the lack of context and setting. Most campaigns are run in some sort of generic fantasy version of Northern Europe, where all the PCs meet up in an alehouse. With 3e, most people could accept a monastary of St. Cuthbert turning out martial artists. But psionics always got tagged with the weird, out-of-place Asian flavor that people didn't want cropping up in Ravenloft, for example.
Related to this was the lack of adventures, especially low- and mid-level adventures. "Death of Lashimire" in Dungeon 116 was for 12th-level PCs; "Hyperconscious" was for 7th level; and "If Thoughts could Kill" was for 10th. A campaign with psionics from 1st level would run for a long time before there was any published adventures to support it.
But absolutely there is a market for it, and I hope you'll come out with a Pathfinder Psionics rulebook.
1. Make magic-psionics transparency complete. Merge spellcraft-psicraft and the item creation feats. Focus the psion more: they ought have a similar relationship to cleric and wizard powers that clerics and wizards have to each other. Telepathy and psychometabolism, as well as psychoportation and psychokinetics, should be the main focus.
2. Most especially, give us a module, a "Sunless Citadel", "Crucible of Freya", or "Life's Bazaar": an easy-to-use low-level soon-to-be-classic module that can kickstart a psionics campaign. One that can be placed in ordinary campaign worlds, in which psionics plays an important role and has a setting and context, but in which the psions don't completely overshadow the other spellcasters, for example.
Psions should always be less useful than clerics against the undead.
A lot of people seem hung up on the idea that psionics is SF and magic is fantasy. But to go back to the fantasy archetypes, psychic powers are very mythic and fantastic.
Imagine a girl born with the Sight, or the boy in "The Shining"... that's SF and not fantasy? I think of the "True Blood" show, where a girl is plagued by her telepathic powers. All of this is not only fantasy, it's horror...! Edgar Cayce channeling dreams of Atlantis is very fantastic, almost Lovecraftian. Most of Thulsa Doom's powers were about hypnotism and mind control.
"Star Wars" has nothing to do with science, of course: it's space fantasy. Aside from "Star Wars" and something like "Slan", I have a hard time thinking of real science fiction that makes much reference of psychic powers, telepathy, &c.
The more I think about this, the more I see psionics as an unecessary re-flavoring of arcane magic. I don't mind the concept of telepaths, etc., but there is serious overlap with magic...I don't see the need for both.
Isn't this essentially true of arcane/divine magic? Even though with one, you need the symbol of a deity and the other, a pocket full of amber rods, fur, phosphorescent moss, ghoul finger, and rakshas eyelashes--they have a lot of overlap in their abilities.
Mechanically, psionics is quite different as well.
And I love the feel of calm and mental control and meditation as a source of power; it's the opposite of a barbarian.
Psionics is a recessive quality that has been for the most part lost for quite some time. It first surfaced in the old kingdom of Azlant as the Aboleths tinkered with humans (and other races) and their methods of controlling them. It wasn't too long afterwards that the Aboleths lost control of Azlant and in retaliation; the Aboleths brought down devastation upon the nation and sunk it deep into the sea.
This is a fantastic sort of idea. Aboleths are great, one the most psychic of all monsters, especially if you get one that sends nightmares to people.
It's funny how people complain about psionics, when those psychic powers have defined some of D&D's best monsters, like the mind flayer and duergar among many others.
It's a promising sort of idea, given how aboleths have been worked into Golarion's history.
The other issue I had was energy damage. Dragons are a lot less dangerous when your best damage dealing spell can be of any enrgy type (except acid, but very few creatures are weak to acid). Wizards and especially Sorcerers had to be prepared to cast weaker spells to get around enrgy resistance/immunity, but the Psion never has that problem.
Exactly. The energy conversion feat for arcane casters always struck me as massive cheese. Focusing on specific energy types is fine, but you should have to pick a specific type of energy when you choose a spell or power. Maybe psions should have to boost the power to use a different energy type.
But to me, the biggest issue I have with psionics is that its not supported in normal modules. Every adventure has monsters, a trap, divine and arcane enemies and this is what makes the core classes work. Having psionics in the game means making products utilize them in every product. I don't count a "Psionics Adventure" where that class is the star of that module, but an enemy for your parties psionicist in every module. Adventures specifically designed for a party with a psionicist don't count. They need to be just as important as a party's cleric, rogue, or at least as valuable as a bard or monk.
QFT. For psionics to work, there has to be some body of modules which involve psionics, but don't make the psionicst the inevitable star of the campaign. Give us such a module, please!
Although I certainly agree with the many people who think it should be easily separated.
…But to me psionics are summed up with unique powers of the mind that are limited to: Telepathy, Telekinesis, and Astral Projection…or simply: Mind Reading/Speaking, Moving Objects without Touching, and Out-of-Mind Experiences.
Yes. I always thought the psionic powers that involved morphing your hand into a clawed lizardman hand didn't seem very much like psionics to me.
I always really loved the psychometabolism powers, though. And Control Light/Control Fire/&c. They were a cool thing that noone else could do, exactly.
Maybe it's not a great idea to let a psion photosynthesize to heal, but maybe he could give himself fast healing 1 for a very limited number of rounds.
1. Vancian magic isn't strictly "fantasy". Who here has actually read "Dying Earth"? The series which inspired D'n'D magic? I have, and it's actually a sci-fi/fantasy set thousands of years in the furture.
Dying Earth is wonderful if strange reading. But it is primarily fantastic in feel rather than being SFish. The flying cars are not much different than a magic carpet or apparatus of Kwalish, and there is much, much more that is inexplicable and fantastic than obviously technological. Significant storylines are about demon summoning and control, for example.
In the end, the current XPH will remain compatible with the Pathfinder RPG, anyway. What is it that fans of the current XPH think needs "updating" if anything?
It'll be compatible, but based on my experience in play with how much more firepower wizards &c get, psions will be underpowered ;)
Throwing out the XPH system (which is James's apparent preference) just because it is balanced based upon standard assumptions isn't particularly fair. Tossing the XPH rules set out would be a deal breaker for me, unless it literally blew my mind.
Vancian psions are a deal-killer. Power points are to psions as Vancian is to wizards.
What do Psionics mean to me? Well cludgey bolted on mechanics (originally) and pathetic 'new-age' crystals (now).
I like the mechanics of Psionics in 3E but I loathe the crytals and other hippy stuff associated with them. So I would be happy to see a Psionics book, but I won't buy it unless the crystal stuff is gone. Yes I know that is just fluff but I still will keep my money in my pocket.
@Chris Gunter, well said. I think you've captured my own thoughts on psionics.
To me psionics shouldn't be another class of spells--but a different kind of abilities all together.
I think that the roots of magic (fantasy) and psionics (sci-fi) make a lot of fantasy gamers who aren't keen at mixing the two, uncomfortable. Unfortunately, it's propelled a constant overhauling of psionics. I think Wizards came close in 3E, but it could still be improved upon.
Personally, I can get on board with wizards having psychic abilities while learning magic--but dedicating a "school of wizardry" to it is trying to make a square peg fit a round hole. You wouldn't teach chemistry and psychology in the same building at a university, so why not give psionics it's own cornerstone?
To me, psionics represents the side-door to Science Fantasy. Some people don't want to go that route, but it's a legitimate genre that goes way back to pulp origins of both genres. But then that's exactly why it's supplement material--it's all optional!
Great thread!
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A lot of people seem hung up on the idea that psionics is SF and magic is fantasy. But to go back to the fantasy archetypes, psychic powers are very mythic and fantastic.
Imagine a girl born with the Sight, or the boy in "The Shining"... that's SF and not fantasy? I think of the "True Blood" show, where a girl is plagued by her telepathic powers. All of this is not only fantasy, it's horror...! Edgar Cayce channeling dreams of Atlantis is very fantastic, almost Lovecraftian. Most of Thulsa Doom's powers were about hypnotism and mind control.
So far, that all says (Screams), Divine to me, but Psionics is trying to steal it to have it's own place. This is exactly what I mean when I wrote my earlier responses that Psionics needs to get it's own flavor and fluff, and doing so is going to probably drive off some people that like Psionics. With the exception of Thulsa Doom (who could just as easily be a Blackguard, Cleric, or Sorcerer, but not Psionic by any indication at all), Divine is the way to go here.
"Star Wars" has nothing to do with science, of course: it's space fantasy. Aside from "Star Wars" and something like "Slan", I have a hard time thinking of real science fiction that makes much reference of psychic powers, telepathy, &c.
A billion movies, such as Push, where Government A did human experiments that alter people, and their children . . ., Starship Troopers has precogs that go to the higher military stations for training and Intel, a few movies and books have gone off the idea that surgery or some similar occurance in the brain can unlock human potentials, Resident Evil 2 & 3 have companies that are designing and cloning a Psionics "thing"/girl, and probably the most direct Sci-Fi Psionics. The X-Files has also had a weird sort of Sci-Fi vs Supernatural thing with psionics.
The more I think about this, the more I see psionics as an unecessary re-flavoring of arcane magic. I don't mind the concept of telepaths, etc., but there is serious overlap with magic...I don't see the need for both.
Isn't this essentially true of arcane/divine magic? Even though with one, you need the symbol of a deity and the other, a pocket full of amber rods, fur, phosphorescent moss, ghoul finger, and rakshas eyelashes--they have a lot of overlap in their abilities.
Mechanically, psionics is quite different as well.
And I love the feel of calm and mental control and meditation as a source of power; it's the opposite of a barbarian.
Once again, that sounds like Divine magic. Being calm, at peace, and meditating/praying, and entering into a holy state. Something I could get behind is the Supernatural TV Show, you want your spells, em powers today, go get some demon blood. Not literally, but maybe it is powers that are gained by consuming some concotion or alchemical mixture.
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Here is a concept that I could see working in Glorion.
Psionics is a recessive quality that has been for the most part lost for quite some time. It first surfaced in the old kingdom of Azlant as the Aboleths tinkered with humans (and other races) and their methods of controlling them. It wasn't too long afterwards that the Aboleths lost control of Azlant and in retaliation; the Aboleths brought down devastation upon the nation and sunk it deep into the sea.
That's a pretty awesome take on it, Herald.
I'd be partial to having a sizable enclave of these individuals having fled to Vudra, perhaps via Jalmeray. (Indeed, perhaps Jalmeray was first founded by a member of these people wanting to recruit like-minded fellows from these areas far to the west, which he then returned with him to Vudra?) The 'mystical' lore of India fits better with psionics than magic, IMO.
Setting the bulk of Golarion's psionic types in a faraway eastern land already known for 'impossible magics' and the like might also work well for those who don't want to muddy up the core of the campaign setting with psionics. They can remain 'foreign' and more easily ignored by DMs who have little or no use for such things, just as fantasy DMs who recoil at the concept of guns can stay the heck away from the small sections of the map (Numeria, frex) that use them.
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Here is a concept that I could see working in Glorion.
Psionics is a recessive quality that has been for the most part lost for quite some time. It first surfaced in the old kingdom of Azlant as the Aboleths tinkered with humans (and other races) and their methods of controlling them. It wasn't too long afterwards that the Aboleths lost control of Azlant and in retaliation; the Aboleths brought down devastation upon the nation and sunk it deep into the sea.
That's a pretty awesome take on it, Herald.
I'd be partial to having a sizable enclave of these individuals having fled to Vudra, perhaps via Jalmeray. (Indeed, perhaps Jalmeray was first founded by a member of these people wanting to recruit like-minded fellows from these areas far to the west, which he then returned with him to Vudra?) The 'mystical' lore of India fits better with psionics than magic, IMO.
Setting the bulk of Golarion's psionic types in a faraway eastern land already known for 'impossible magics' and the like might also work well for those who don't want to muddy up the core of the campaign setting with psionics. They can remain 'foreign' and more easily ignored by DMs who have little or no use for such things, just as fantasy DMs who recoil at the concept of guns can stay the heck away from the small sections of the map (Numeria, frex) that use them.
That was my thinking on the concept. Even if there was a sudden boom in their population, I'd still say it would be small blip on the radar so to speak. I never like to shove anything down someone’s face. But I do like to try raising some one’s interest, throwing a few story hooks around.
Hermea might make a great location for the Elans, considering the experimentation going on there with Humans. Then again, a few isolated cells here and there might also be interesting.
Perhaps psionics works in Alkenstar but arcane and divine magic doesn't.
I kind of see successful psionic characters as being the types that
One of the other things I see that make psionic characters different than other casters works like this.
Arcane Spell casters try and improve their ability to tap arcane power.
Divine casters are trying to tap their faith and deepen their bonds of faith.
The Psionic character is always trying to improve themselves. They more than others have to depend on their will and their will alone more so than others with no exception than say maybe the fighter (and possibly the monk.) To them, everything is a test and self improvement isn't just a spiritual journey but a necessity.
I don't automatically think of Aroden as a psionic character, but I do see him as a person who ascended mortality, and reached a level that was closer to perfection. I think that is appealing to the concept psionics as a whole.
While Aroden's churches have collapsed, I can easily see psionic characters trying to learn from Aroden's secrets trying for apotheosis/assertion. (Not all who ascend have to become a demigod IMHO.) Perhaps even a few Aroden heretics that state that Aroden didn't actually die, he just ascended once again.
Even still Aroden's holy symbol really looks cool when you think that it could be reinterpreted psionic all seeing eye. But that’s just me
Dying Earth is wonderful if strange reading. But it is primarily fantastic in feel rather than being SFish. The flying cars are not much different than a magic carpet or apparatus of Kwalish, and there is much, much more that is inexplicable and fantastic than obviously technological. Significant storylines are about demon summoning and control, for example.
I know it's intended to be fantasy-esc, but I felt it needed pointed out. I'm not a big fan of the "Power Point system isn't fantasy" train of thought since, as mentioned, Dying Earth contains quite a number of Sci-Fi elements whilst quite alot of fantasy games lately feature a "Point" system for spells. In fact I've only seen Vancian Magic in three settings ever - Discworld (Even then, to my knowledge it is heavily altered. Spells don't seem to be "forgotten" once cast and magic seems to pop up everywhere once sourcers turn up) Dungeons and Dragons and Final Fantasy (the first one), though the first final fantasy game was based loosly on D'n'D anyway.
As for magic point/pool systems? Well with computer games theres every subsequent final fantasy (even if they aren't strictly fantasy), games such as Dungeon Seige, Alundra, Legend of Zelda, The Elder Scrolls series, Fable, Summoner, Champions of Norrath, hell, even the PS versions of Baldur's Gate (a game based in Forgotten Realms) features magic points rather than vancian magic.
As for movies/Books? Well no one seems to "forget" spells once cast in Star Dust, The Sword of Xanten, the Scorpian King, The Chronicles of Narnia, The Black Magician Trilogy, The Age of Five Trilogy, Lord of the Rings, or in any Warhammer or Ragnarock Book.
These are all examples just off the top of my head (theres bound to be alot more) yet the only "Fantasy" which seems to feature magic taken from the Dying Earth (or at least the only ones I can find) seems to be D'n'D, partially discworld and a game loosly based on D'n'D.
If someone wants to say that the theme of Psionics or some such might not fit, fair enough, but I find it hard to accept the idea of a Point based system not fitting simply because it's a point-based system or because "Vancian magic is more fitting for fantasy".
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Because of Zuoken, in Greyhawk, I tend to associate psionics with Irori, in this setting, with the whole mental and physical self-perfection thing... Which, again, ties to Vudra. :)
Nethys and Sivhana also seem like good possibilities.
Another good tie in too. But of course, multiple flavors can be a good thing.
Psionics are great just the way they are, but with some small updates. Increase the balance between the races, some of the feats and a few minor changes to the classes (soulknife, I'm looking at you).
Do that and I'll buy your book. I love psionics flavor and mechanics as they are.
Dying Earth is wonderful if strange reading. But it is primarily fantastic in feel rather than being SFish. The flying cars are not much different than a magic carpet or apparatus of Kwalish, and there is much, much more that is inexplicable and fantastic than obviously technological. Significant storylines are about demon summoning and control, for example.I know it's intended to be fantasy-esc, but I felt it needed pointed out. I'm not a big fan of the "Power Point system isn't fantasy" train of thought since, as mentioned, Dying Earth contains quite a number of Sci-Fi elements whilst quite alot of fantasy games lately feature a "Point" system for spells. In fact I've only seen Vancian Magic in three settings ever - Discworld (Even then, to my knowledge it is heavily altered. Spells don't seem to be "forgotten" once cast and magic seems to pop up everywhere once sourcers turn up) Dungeons and Dragons and Final Fantasy (the first one), though the first final fantasy game was based loosly on D'n'D anyway.
As for magic point/pool systems? Well with computer games theres every subsequent final fantasy (even if they aren't strictly fantasy), games such as Dungeon Seige, Alundra, Legend of Zelda, The Elder Scrolls series, Fable, Summoner, Champions of Norrath, hell, even the PS versions of Baldur's Gate (a game based in Forgotten Realms) features magic points rather than vancian magic....
+1.
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Psionics means unusual powers akin to magic but not directly working against it.
It means the power of the mind made manifest: telepathy, empathy, telekinesis, etc.
It also can mean the power of the Force.
It does not operate completely independent of magic. One of the reasons I've despised psionics in the past is this idea that the two are different and never the twain shall meet. I've seen in 2E what that means, and it wasn't pretty. Psionics has, from my experience, not been done well because of this, in part, in any edition. Now, no one wants to try it in 3.5 form in our group due to previous editions' damage.
Yet mechanically, I like it. For some reason, though, I can't seem to trust it.
But you guys I do.
Primarily, I'd like to see some game balance with existing spellcasters. Divine magic and arcane magic are similar in many ways; really, the primary difference mechanically is that divine spells can be cast in armor more easily than arcane. There are plenty of powers out there already, plenty of possible effects, so that's good to work from. Psionics should seem strange, different, yet also useful and have that element of wonder that magic so often lacks.
Sorry, that's vague. Getting late.
I really like the psionics in the expanded handbook as well. The compatibility of magic and psionics is important to me. I was not that big of a fan of psionics until 3.5 ala psionics being OP in earlier editions. Thus, I am fan of keeping psionics compatible with 3.5.
The feel of psionics is great for a more eastern style mystic character. The look and feel of psionics needs to be different than magic but work from a similiar set of mechanics. Also, the telepaths, seers, and psychometabolic characters feel more like someone using an internal source of power.
One idea I'm playing with for my Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting, is to make Ninja, something like rogues with 1e Wild Psionic Powers, that is they have a limited psionic point pool and a small associated class of psionic powers.
Like 2e Ninja's Handbook, Kaidan features five different Ninja clans, each specializing in their own set of Ninja weapons, infiltration techniques. However that handbook had only one arcane styled ninja with certain unique powers.
Not that I play 4e, I don't, there was a recent move by WotC to turn the Monk into a Psionicist, by replacing the Ki Power with Psi Power. I found the idea appalling, especially as it applies to an oriental setting. After some discussion on that topic on many forums, I had to concede to certain points. In many ways a psionicist in fluff resembles an asestic monk in lifestyle, equipment and look. Then there's the whole argument over the slight differences in powers of the mind versus energy of life - that's mostly academic and proves nothing either way. So as an experiment, until I find it to be otherwise broken, I've been developing psionic ninja.
In Kaidan, I won't allow the most powerful types of Psionic attacks and Powers, like Teleport and Mind Blast. Being that there's only five ninja clans of selected a unique group of psionic powers that each can specialize in and at no time can cross train in another clans psionics. Also in Kaidan, and many of the more recent 3e games my gaming group has played. "We allow Dispell Magic to work against Psionics!"
Thus any counter magic, and counter psionics of powers or spells work on each other just fine. So this less distinctualizes psionics from arcane magic.
One Ninja house specializes in Altered Movement - dimension door, etc. Another in Physical Movement - walk on wall, body equillibrium to walk on a spiders web, levitating, buffs to jumping. Another house has limited mind-affecting powers (a Kunoichi female ninja house) for spying and some control. Another has invisibility, pass through wall, etc.
Five house with five distinct skill sets with limited psionic powers and power point pool available.
I'm not sure I risky I should be in pursuing this direction for my Ninja.
GP
Here is a concept that I could see working in Glorion.
Psionics is a recessive quality that has been for the most part lost for quite some time. It first surfaced in the old kingdom of Azlant as the Aboleths tinkered with humans (and other races) and their methods of controlling them. It wasn't too long afterwards that the Aboleths lost control of Azlant and in retaliation; the Aboleths brought down devastation upon the nation and sunk it deep into the sea.
That's a pretty awesome take on it, Herald.
I'd be partial to having a sizable enclave of these individuals having fled to Vudra, perhaps via Jalmeray. (Indeed, perhaps Jalmeray was first founded by a member of these people wanting to recruit like-minded fellows from these areas far to the west, which he then returned with him to Vudra?) The 'mystical' lore of India fits better with psionics than magic, IMO.
Setting the bulk of Golarion's psionic types in a faraway eastern land already known for 'impossible magics' and the like might also work well for those who don't want to muddy up the core of the campaign setting with psionics. They can remain 'foreign' and more easily ignored by DMs who have little or no use for such things, just as fantasy DMs who recoil at the concept of guns can stay the heck away from the small sections of the map (Numeria, frex) that use them.
That was my thinking on the concept. Even if there was a sudden boom in their population, I'd still say it would be small blip on the radar so to speak. I never like to shove anything down someone’s face. But I do like to try raising some one’s interest, throwing a few story hooks around.
Hermea might make a great location for the Elans, considering the experimentation going on there with Humans. Then again, a few isolated cells here and there might also be interesting.
Perhaps psionics works in Alkenstar but arcane and divine magic doesn't.
You guys have been reading my mind! Vudra is the obvious choice for psionicists in Golarion, w/ some found in smaller doses in Hermea and Alkenstar. Not to mention the Red or Green planets. If psionics is going to work for Paizo, it absolutely needs to be tied into the campaign setting. But in areas that can remain out of the way and thus optional for those who don't want anything to do w/ it (sigh).
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Well with computer games theres every subsequent final fantasy (even if they aren't strictly fantasy), games such as Dungeon Seige, Alundra, Legend of Zelda, The Elder Scrolls series, Fable, Summoner, Champions of Norrath, hell, even the PS versions of Baldur's Gate (a game based in Forgotten Realms) features magic points rather than vancian magic.
In addition to D&D based Baldur's Gate, there's also Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sorcerers get more 'spell points' than Wizards, and Wizards can prepare spells from a larger list, but both can freely cast their three or so 'prepared' spells a half dozen times or more before running out of 'energy.'
It's somewhat telling that even the bulk of games built off of D&D don't use Vancian magic.
It's somewhat telling that even the bulk of games built off of D&D don't use Vancian magic.
That Vancian magic is a more difficult mechanic to display and use within the constraints of a computer program and/or design of a particular video game?
That Vancian magic is a more difficult mechanic to display and use within the constraints of a computer program and/or design of a particular video game?
Not really, having a system were abilities can only be used so many times between resting wouldn't be any more complex. Unless the spell system featured somthing like Augmentation, but then again I've never seen any Point Based magic systems use that other than 3.5 Psionics.
That Vancian magic is a more difficult mechanic to display and use within the constraints of a computer program and/or design of a particular video game?Not really, having a system were abilities can only be used so many times between resting wouldn't be any more complex. Unless the spell system featured somthing like Augmentation, but then again I've never seen any Point Based magic systems use that other than 3.5 Psionics.
I don't see it as just an issue of complexity to program, nor to provide an easy to use interface. I believe there issues with how it interacts with the design of most games. There is the lack of just daily regeneration systems for many games. Most work on regenerating magical/psychic power through a few moments of rest or point restoring items to keep the character powered when away from a bed or a hotel. Both those methods for keeping a character available though many combats are less viable, to me, within a game because it would require either the something to choose to restore one or more of the characters spells. It would likely mean more menus for the player to navigate through making it a poor design choice for the video game.
Vancian doesn't really support easy regeneration of spells (which almost all video games assume).
There isn't really a dealbreaker as far as psionics goes. I own the old psionics book, but never really much use it because it was never written very fully into the core D&D game.
I'd say if you're going to have psionics, tie it into the setting--how do the psionic classes fit in the world. Make them at least as integral to the world as monks.
Also, please oh please let it be its own thing. Magic doesn't counter psi, psi doesn't counter magic. I mean if psi is just a kind of magic, then you're really just talking about a different spell list. I like that it's a whole 'nother thing.
The biggest draw for me with psionics in Pathfinder is how it ties into the other planets in the Golariverse, the red and green planets, Arcturis.
I GUARANTEE YOU
You package the psionics book with the information about the races and classes of the worlds beyond Golarion, pack it with pulp flavor, I'll do what I can to make it fly off the shelves.
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The only thing that would be a dealbreaker for me would be if Pathfinder psionics worked like XPH psionics. I know that's a selling point for some people, but I don't like the point-based system, at least not in a game that still uses slots for spellcasters. For my purposes, I would like to see a supplement about "psionic-themed" casters and more options for that than I would a whole new subsystem that serves no purpose other than to make psionics pointlessly different. A psychic bloodline for sorcerers, for example, or a "mentalist" version of the wizard class that used a different subset of sorcerer/wizard spells (and some new ones of its own) in combination with psychic-style "school abilities". Maybe some psionic feats to give non-magic-users some minor telekinetic or telepathic abilities.
Just please not point-based psionics again. Thank you.
Jeremy Puckett
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The only thing that would be a dealbreaker for me would be if Pathfinder psionics worked like XPH psionics. I know that's a selling point for some people, but I don't like the point-based system, at least not in a game that still uses slots for spellcasters. For my purposes, I would like to see a supplement about "psionic-themed" casters and more options for that than I would a whole new subsystem that serves no purpose other than to make psionics pointlessly different. A psychic bloodline for sorcerers, for example, or a "mentalist" version of the wizard class that used a different subset of sorcerer/wizard spells (and some new ones of its own) in combination with psychic-style "school abilities". Maybe some psionic feats to give non-magic-users some minor telekinetic or telepathic abilities.
Just please not point-based psionics again. Thank you.
Jeremy Puckett
For me it is the contrary. I love the point base !
I am pushing hard for my players to be psionists unfortunately the fact the no psionic class is in the PHB. that does not help my players being curious unfortunately...
That's a shame as for me the 3.5 version is quite good (soulknife seems to be rather poor). But still .... it doesn't need much to be perfect!
Jeremy, how would you feel about a point based psionics if magic was also point based? Is it the contrast between points (psionics) and slots (magic), or do you just not like the point system at all?
I kicked out wizards and sorcerers and replaced them with psions, which are now arcane spellcasters.
Replacing the roles of scholars with adepts and scientific magic with mystical inate forces makes for some interesting variations of the game world, too.|
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Jeremy, how would you feel about a point based psionics if magic was also point based? Is it the contrast between points (psionics) and slots (magic), or do you just not like the point system at all?
The contrast between the two is the major sticking point for me, honestly. I get that psionics is supposed to be "different," but quite frankly, arcane and divine magic are supposed to be "different" from one another too. And if they both use slots, then psionics needs to use slots too. You can have plenty of fluff and fringe differences without skewing the mechanics.
I don't care for the rules implications of point-based casters being able to "go nova" more effectively than slot-based casters either, but that's a different matter. If all casters were point-based, it would be a little more palatable, but that's not going to happen. Since we know, for a fact at this point, that slot-based casting is still in for Pathfinder, any discussion of psionics should focus on how to make psionics compatible with the rules set as extant--which means that psionic characters need to use slots (if they're going to be casters...).
On another matter, I'm not convinced that psionic powers need to be casting abilities. While I can make a good argument for "mentalist" and "wild talent" as wizard and sorcerer analogues, there have also been a number of interesting feat-based psionics systems that show promise. As long as the final version of psionics doesn't feel like it came from a different game (like the one in XPH does), then I'll be content.
Jeremy Puckett
You are not going to make everyone happy with pscionics. That is a fact. There is too much bad blood, and opinions vary too much. My thoughts are provide two paths in a single book. Include all the fluff for psionics as you see it, and 2 rule sets. 1 that encorporates new schools of magic and blood lines that are wraped in psionic fluff. And in addition an update of the existing psionic system (what with the desire to be backwards compatable and all), complete with updates for a few base classes. Present both options and let people choose in their gaming group. Make it clear in the book that groups should decide which piece works best for them.
The key though is to make sure that the new system can interact with magic. Things that affect magic should affect psionics and vice versa, spell resistance, dispell magic, anti-magic fields these should cross between the two. Mechanically this prevents dms from having to jump through hoops to provide equal challenges, Monster X is still just as hard against a psion because his SR is not automatically bypassed. Counterspelling mage Y can still disrupt the psion as he would have a wizard. Fluff wise this can be explained as the competing psionic and magical energies clashing the same way magic clashes with itself, they dont exist in absense of eachother but instead occupy the same space.
Another important matter is have a section in the book for DM's. Provide advice for how to deal with a psi-character. How most npc's react, how does he fit in the world, what should be done to manage behaviors X Y and Z (I will only take a few simple lessons from the dm to player to deal with a player blowing all his power points in a single encounter for instance).
While I like the idea of having two different options for a way to handle psionics (because I like options), it would mean that the psionics book would be even harder to integrate into future products, since you'd have to double the work that went into any psionic occurance: Statting up this NPC as a Psion/Feat-based Psionic, making this PrC balance for Psions/Feat-based Wizards, or whatever else. It complicates things a great deal.
I will reiterate, though - I want the XPH updated to Pathfinder, because it's good, but it needs to be brought up to speed (for example, wizards have infinite cantrips, so they never actually run out of magic, while psions don't even have 0th level powers, so they will invariably be capable of running dry, and they suffer a further penalty, because once you're out of power points, you can't maintain psionic focus and thus lose access to several feats you may have taken). I do NOT want to see them forced to conform to Vancian casting, because, while I like it well enough, I want an option that ISN'T Vancian. Just like many people playing core tend towards the (previously) mechanically inferior Sorcerer to get as far from Vancian as they could, I prefer playing psionics in part because it is so much more flexible and intuitive, as well as fitting better mechanically with how magic is most commonly portrayed.
I will likely buy a PFRPG compatible Psionic supplement if and when it comes out. The only question is whether I buy it from Paizo, or get it from folks who love the XPH as much or more than I do. I hope they don't feel the need to make one.
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One of the complaints I have is that the Psion seems to be built on an example of Wizard.
It seems to me that they went out of thier way to make the Psion a glass cannon.
A lot of the power seem to be based on touch attacks, but the Psion gets a 4 sided hit die and no armor proficencies. (but can cast in armor)
I'd like to bring the psion uptodate with Pathfinder.
I'd like to see the psion get hit die: 8, better BAB, light armor, simple weapons and 0 level powers.
0 level powers would cost 0 points.
The powers list needs an overhaul as well. Right now the 6 differant psions don't really shine. IMHO.
I would be against having them cast spells in a way different then the current casters. No points systems. It makes them incompatable with other casters. These are my veiws on it, I did not use psionics in 3.x because of how it worked. I would not buy a pathfinder system book if it worked the same way. A pathfinder system that was based on how every other caster selects spells would be of interest to me.
I would be against having them cast spells in a way different then the current casters. No points systems. It makes them incompatable with other casters. These are my veiws on it, I did not use psionics in 3.x because of how it worked. I would not buy a pathfinder system book if it worked the same way. A pathfinder system that was based on how every other caster selects spells would be of interest to me.
If this were the case, there would be no reason to add another spellcaster so a psionicist class would not work or be necessary doing it this way. No to include psionics means a different way of casting, and preferrable with a point system. I've played with psionic players in our games since 1.0, and although we've hated the constant reinvention of the system in every iteration. These reinventions didn't just create another spell-caster.
Doing it would just be wrong and pointless. Psionicts must be different or the concept does not work.
GP
While I like the idea of having two different options for a way to handle psionics (because I like options), it would mean that the psionics book would be even harder to integrate into future products, since you'd have to double the work that went into any psionic occurance: Statting up this NPC as a Psion/Feat-based Psionic, making this PrC balance for Psions/Feat-based Wizards, or whatever else. It complicates things a great deal.
It may make things more complicated but I dont see a better solution when people are so strictly divided down the "I dont want a different system" and "Psionics should be different from normal magic" lines. These two groups will never see eye to eye. To me the solution that requires a little extra work on the part of DM's and on the part of those developing future Pathfinder Crunch, but allows for both sides to have a way to include psionic concepts in their game is the better solution. I also dont think it will take much to keep things balances, psionic wizards (psionic fluff wrapped around existing spell casters) will take no balancing, as all you need is a few new school powers or bloodlines, and a couple new lists for existing spells. They would use existing spells and existing feats, as well as existing PrC's.
The only work will come in balancing the update of the psionic system for pathfinder, which would have to be done anyway.
I think its as simple as use the Psionicist, because the rules work for you or don't.
Almost like saying you don't want to use sorcerers in a given game, but only the mechanic for wizards.
There's no reason to create two different kinds of Psionic mechanics, that seems useless and/or silly, at least in IMO.
GP
I would be against having them cast spells in a way different then the current casters. No points systems. It makes them incompatable with other casters. These are my veiws on it, I did not use psionics in 3.x because of how it worked. I would not buy a pathfinder system book if it worked the same way. A pathfinder system that was based on how every other caster selects spells would be of interest to me.If this were the case, there would be no reason to add another spellcaster so a psionicist class would not work or be necessary doing it this way. No to include psionics means a different way of casting, and preferrable with a point system. I've played with psionic players in our games since 1.0, and although we've hated the constant reinvention of the system in every iteration. These reinventions didn't just create another spell-caster.
Doing it would just be wrong and pointless. Psionicts must be different or the concept does not work.
GP
The question posed was what would make me interesting in buying a Psionics book, my answer stands. I too have been playing since 1e, back when it was a random roll and if you got it you better pray your next few rolls were good too or you would be a near hopeless psonic with few if any useful abilities. If you did roll well you were a veritable god, that I do not want. I do not want a spell caster class that is clearly stronger then others. I would like mind magic and would buy a book about that.
I do not want a spell caster class that is clearly stronger then others. I would like mind magic and would buy a book about that.
That's just it, Thurgon. The psion isn't a spellcaster at all. Psionics isn't "mind magic". It's in some ways similar to magic in that it has visual, exciting effects. But it's as different from magic as ki is. A monk is not a spellcaster and neither is a psion. (And that doesn't mean that psionics is a type of ki, either. It's different from that also.)
If Paizo does do a psionics book for PF than a small section on actual magic spells that deal with the mind and mental energy would be juicy and appreciated to be sure! I can see a new magic using prestige class that competes with the psion for the title of "best mental manipulator". (While the cerebromancer stands in the background, shaking his head.)
But, in the end, the psychic warrior, soulknife and psion are not magic users. When you think of psionics, think of telepathy and telekinesis. Think of psychometry. Psionics are psychic abilities. I mean, yes, this is D&D. And it's effects are far more powerful than they would be in real life (if they even do exist in real life)... but that doesn't automatically make it a type of magic.
I do not want a spell caster class that is clearly stronger then others. I would like mind magic and would buy a book about that.That's just it, Thurgon. The psion isn't a spellcaster at all. Psionics isn't "mind magic". It's in some ways similar to magic in that it has visual, exciting effects. But it's as different from magic as ki is. A monk is not a spellcaster and neither is a psion. (And that doesn't mean that psionics is a type of ki, either. It's different from that also.)
If Paizo does do a psionics book for PF than a small section on actual magic spells that deal with the mind and mental energy would be juicy and appreciated to be sure! I can see a new magic using prestige class that competes with the psion for the title of "best mental manipulator". (While the cerebromancer stands in the background, shaking his head.)
But, in the end, the psychic warrior, soulknife and psion are not magic users. When you think of psionics, think of telepathy and telekinesis. Think of psychometry. Psionics are psychic abilities. I mean, yes, this is D&D. And it's effects are far more powerful than they would be in real life (if they even do exist in real life)... but that doesn't automatically make it a type of magic.
Trust me I understand all that. But I have no use for a psonic that works that way. I don't see myself buying a book about one that does. I would buy a book about one that uses the same rules as other casters that is what I am saying. I do get some don't want that but I do and would buy the a book with those types of rules for psionics.
Regarding doing it like another magic class, doesn't mental magic already exist under wizard/sorcerer, ie: Suggestion, Clairvoyance, Clairaudience, various enchantments that control people, etc. While Invisible Servant is not the same as telekinesis, the result is the same. Trying to make psionics like magic seems redundant, as it already exists as mental magic to some degree already.
What makes psionics work, even in its various broken forms over the years is that it is NOT magic, can't be dispelled, and works in a different way to achieve a wider range of applications that existing "mental magic" does not. Its what always made psionics special, even if you could never be happy with the rules and mechanics that attempted to make it work from 1e to 3e.
It was not magic, and that's the main point I have in favor of it.
Not that other opinions aren't worth the consideration, since it does need some level of overhauling, its just that making it more like magic, would break the idea of it, im my thinking.
I agree that creating a class that is more powerful than spell casters is not the way to go. But in my experience, looking at 3.5 psionics is still under-powered compared to an equal high level wizard. Its not more powerful than spellcasters, in fact its less powered in many ways.
Every psionic feat that makes a more powerful psionicist now, has an existing counterpart as it applies to arcane spellcasters. In many ways the spellcasters have access to more feats than enhance magic, than psionicist have to enhance there powers.
Thus I don't agree that psionicists as they exist now is more powerful than a spellcaster. In every way, now, its less.
GP
Trust me I understand all that. But I have no use for a psonic that works that way. I don't see myself buying a book about one that does. I would buy a book about one that uses the same rules as other casters that is what I am saying. I do get some don't want that but I do and would buy the a book with those types of rules for psionics.
Ah! Indeed then, forgive me. More power to you.
In my mind the entire point of psionics is that it's different from magic... otherwise what's the point of having it at all (or having a different name for it)?
In the apparent case of your opinion (and you're not alone in it - there are definately others that feel the same way you do), I recommend to Paizo that they make a psionics book and a book of new and alternate systems of magic (much like Tome of Magic). Hopefully that will keep us all happy! :)
(EDIT: Forgot a sentence up above... dumb me.)
The problem with 3.5e is, that psionics are NOT different from magic. There's no difference between a psion and a spell point based sorcerer. Spells and powers work exactly the same.