A first level cleric of Desna can just tele right through it too, if they have the travel domain.
Who can create a Wall of Force? Wizards and Sorcerers. Anyone else? Nope.
If you are going to face such a threat, then you had better be ready to face something as simple as a Wall of Force. You could be facing worse (Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Baleful Polymorph, Feeblemind, Magic Jar, Teleport or Telekinesis).
And just about all of those spells need to be nerfed in some way or another.
Also: why can I hack down a Bigby's Hand - a Force effect - but I can't do ANY damage to a Wall of Force? Anyone want to explain that to me? Anyone?
Keep in mind a simple potion of Jump or Levitate could bypass the wall for a Melee character too.
Other options? Passwall, Teleportation spells (Dimension Door is a commonly memorized spell and a level lower), Ethereal Jaunt (and move under or around through non-force areas), Gaseous Form to fly through any crack left (the wall has to be continuous), Flight of any kind... which, by the way, can't be dispelled if it's a magic item.
All magical solutions.
A simple running jump to grab the top of the wall, and a climb check to pull yourself over allows getting past (vertical reach is 8' on a Medium creature, +1' per 4 DC on your Jump check.
And then they get killed while trying to climb the wall. Usually in very heavy armor to boot! Probably the most embarrassing way to die in a D&D game - getting hacked to pieces while trying to/after scaling a Wall Of Force. :lol:
Even better - a Wall Of Force cast in a dungeon where it is flush with the walls and floors. Can't climb that, kids!
(Monks easily beating most wall spells).
But alas, most melee characters do NOT have a power level of over 9000, and are unable to do so. Neat trick, though.
Blocking line of effect can be as easy as an Obscuring Mist spell too.
That's.... kind of lame. So a fog machine could theoretically thwart a Wall of Force? :lol:
The point is, the wall isn't unbeatable. You still have a lot of options, cheap and some even within reach of a non-casting Melee character.
Or - more likely - you'll be taken out by being Baleful Polymorphed into a chicken just as you climb over the Wall of Force.
All magical solutions.
So is a +1 longsword, when you get down to it, and you'd surely need more than that to cut through a 30 hardness wall like people are asking for here.
All magical solutions.So is a +1 longsword, when you get down to it, and you'd surely need more than that to cut through a 30 hardness wall like people are asking for here.
You'd need an Adamantine weapon, or Adamantine ammunition... or an incredible amount of targeted brute force.
You'd need an Adamantine weapon, or Adamantine ammunition... or an incredible amount of targeted brute force.All magical solutions.So is a +1 longsword, when you get down to it, and you'd surely need more than that to cut through a 30 hardness wall like people are asking for here.
Adamantine only ignores hardness up to 20, as opposed to subtracting 20 from the hardness. So Adamantine isn't any better than another weapon against hardnesses above 20.
Simple enough question, right?
I get that we want to have a super-strong force field, and that's cool, but one of the arguments that came up back in the fighter playtest discussion was the fact that there are certain spells that are absolutely unbeatable without a specific countermeasure. WoF is such a spell. It cannot be broken by any amount of physical strength. It cannot be damaged by anything but disintegrate, which destroys it. It doesn't matter if you are an epic paragon l33t uber-tarrasque, you cannot break through this 5th level spell. It can't be done.
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I like the spell as it is. It's a usefull utility spell. Nerf it and it's no longer usefull. If i fighter, Paladin or Barbarian can smash it so can all the bad guys, the evil,clerics, the evil giants, the BBEG, etc.
No keep WoF the way it is. Also it's good for- hey, let's run away!
I like it.
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Good points Max Money
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And if that is the case, the players can cry "Cheese!" or "WTF!" or what ever comes to mind at the DM for putting you in that situation in the first place. This game is not a competition between the players and the DM. This kind of problem is an encounter-building issue, not a problem with the spells.
This is a game of teamwork and mutual fun.
QFT
However, I must point out that sometimes Force Cage and Wall of Force go so far as to make teamwork pointless if either a disintegrate or a rod of cancelation are unavailable...
So the DM can't throw a situation at the group... because the players don't want to have it happen? That's not an encounter-building problem, it shows just how overpowered things can be. You cannot blame the DM if they're playing a module designed by WotC or Paizo or whomever that has a villain with two force cages and they prepare only one disintigrate. Sorry, but this really illustrates that if a DM must fiat this that it has inherent problems.
I mentioned it above that at times it takes spells to beat spells.
Super. Why play anything but a spellcaster, then?
A wall of force is a short duration spell (max of 20 rounds) that can only be a flat, vertical wall (not a ceiling, floor or ramp) and because of these limitations happens to be impenetrable to physical means. Even permanency does not make it really permanent. There are ways to destroy them, brute force is not one of them.
ONLY 20 rounds? That's a whole lot of murderin' time.
And aside from Disintegrate, Disjunction, and Rods Of Cancellation, what are the other ways that you can destroy a Wall of Force right now? Seems like the only guys that have a shot at this problem are people with access to 6th level Sorcerer and Wizard spells.
Oh, and Spheres of Annihilation. Do you know where my party's fighter might be able to pick one up on the cheap? :lol:
This is a case where you need to work smarter not harder not to beat the holy heck out of a spell with the nerf-stick.
I'm sorry, Max, but I'd like for people besides Sorcerers and Wizards have some ability to breach this spell. This spell NEEDS to be "beaten with the nerf stick" or as I like to call it "balanced".
In a team, there are members that can often do things that others members cannot.
I believe the correct term for those members right now is "spellcaster".
This does not make the other members useless.
This is true. Non-spellcasters are really good at carrying my treasure.
A team working together will always beat a group of individuals. Like in basketball, a zone defense will beat man-to-man every time. Mages have cool spells and warriors deal tons of damage. Together they can do just about anything; individually, they can be beat.
A team of spellcasters beats a team of mixed characters or non-spellcasters every time in PRPG. Truefax.
That being said, if one party member is not being a team player or the DM is making things difficult for some in the party and not others, then you need to speak up and voice your displeasure. This is a game after all. If you aren't having fun, things either need to change or you need to find a new game.
Non-spellcasters aren't team players because they are too vulnerable to being shut down by magical effects. They don't pull their own weight. They are dependent on spellcasters to make any kind of contribution, whereas spellcasters don't really need non-spellcasters very much at all.
That's why Wizards are Tier 1 characters and Fighters are Tier 5 characters.
Adamantine only ignores hardness up to 20, as opposed to subtracting 20 from the hardness. So Adamantine isn't any better than another weapon against hardnesses above 20.You'd need an Adamantine weapon, or Adamantine ammunition... or an incredible amount of targeted brute force.All magical solutions.So is a +1 longsword, when you get down to it, and you'd surely need more than that to cut through a 30 hardness wall like people are asking for here.
Give it Hardness 20 and leave it at that.
And just about all of those spells need to be nerfed in some way or another.
Maybe when you start to reach the point where you need to basically rewrite an entire level range for half the classes... maybe you don't really want to play this game anymore.
Also: why can I hack down a Bigby's Hand - a Force effect - but I can't do ANY damage to a Wall of Force? Anyone want to explain that to me? Anyone?
This was discussed earlier.
All magical solutions.
Yes. Can we please get off this "high level gameplay can't even trust to have access to potions" bull? Seriously? You are describing a game that is VASTLY different from the core rules if you don't even let your Fighters buy a potion. For crying out loud.
And then they get killed while trying to climb the wall. Usually in very heavy armor to boot! Probably the most embarrassing way to die in a D&D game - getting hacked to pieces while trying to/after scaling a Wall Of Force. :lol:
Even better - a Wall Of Force cast in a dungeon where it is flush with the walls and floors. Can't climb that, kids!
Okay.. so first we are talking about a wizard flying around over the wall firing spells off... but then we are talking about blocking a cave wall (where the wizard couldn't have line of effect either) and somehow still beating them... or then, it's really a big group of creatures attacking the fighter trying to climb the wall (which begs the question.. if they can hit him, why can't he hit them?).
Hurray! Let's create unbeatable situations! Why the heck would you get into that position in the first place? You don't need a Wall of Force to specifically screw people over if you really want to.
And really.. the proposal is to make it take a long time to destroy the wall of force. How is that going to resolve any of the unbeatable situations?
Are we supposed to be having a discussion here, or just tossing out ridiculous examples?
(Monks easily beating most wall spells).But alas, most melee characters do NOT have a power level of over 9000, and are unable to do so. Neat trick, though.
What the heck are you talking about? "Power level of over 9000"? Who uses terms like this in D&D?
The wall can only be created in 10' squares. If you want any distance sideways, you are looking at 10' maybe 20' tall. A Monk can jump that easily at low levels, from standing (please read what Monks can do when it comes to jumping, they have many bonuses and removal of limits).
That's.... kind of lame. So a fog machine could theoretically thwart a Wall of Force? :lol:
No, it thwarts the specific example of the Wizard trying to cast his "Death from above" attack spells from flying above the line of effect blocking wall of force.
It's like people forget what we are even talking about.
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Ultimately what is happening here is that a few people (esp. Sueki) are playing the game in a way that it was not meant to be played. Normally, I hate saying that... but when you want to rewrite practically everything over a certain level, you gotta take a step back and reevaluate what you are wanting here.
Honestly.. from all the posts asking for tearing down nearly every single high level magical thing in this game.. why are you still playing core D&D? Why not 4e, or E6 or something similar?
Clearly people liked playing this game the way it was in 3.5. There's a lot of people out there who still think that Pathfinder might be on the verge of "changing too much". The stated goal of Pathfinder is to keep 3.5e alive, not break down the entire game and remake it into Iron Heroes.
Give it Hardness 20 and leave it at that.
Then wall of force needs to be reduced to 2nd or 3rd level. It's much less shapable and has a much shorter duration than the other solid wall spells. If it's made easily destroyable (and 20 hardness is very easily destroyable even without adamantine weapons; a simple power attack from a barbarian with a nonmagic greatsword will deal damage just about every time), it loses nearly all of its use.
So the DM can't throw a situation at the group... because the players don't want to have it happen? That's not an encounter-building problem, it shows just how overpowered things can be. You cannot blame the DM if they're playing a module designed by WotC or Paizo or whomever that has a villain with two force cages and they prepare only one disintigrate. Sorry, but this really illustrates that if a DM must fiat this that it has inherent problems.And if that is the case, the players can cry "Cheese!" or "WTF!" or what ever comes to mind at the DM for putting you in that situation in the first place. This game is not a competition between the players and the DM. This kind of problem is an encounter-building issue, not a problem with the spells.
This is a game of teamwork and mutual fun.
QFT
However, I must point out that sometimes Force Cage and Wall of Force go so far as to make teamwork pointless if either a disintegrate or a rod of cancelation are unavailable...
"So the DM can't throw a situation at the group... because the players don't want to have it happen?"
Answer: The DM can't throw a situation at the group that are unbalanced. Would you throw a lvl 15 wizard vs. a lvl 3 party etc.?The DM can't throw a situation at the group that they don't want/like. Because if he/she does it again and again they will change DM.
The DM can't play a game the players don't enjoy. Because if he/she does they will change DM.
And agree, Forcecage is perhaps to good.
Forcecage gives a save now, lasts for rounds not hours now, and still has a very important size limitation on what it can affect. You can still attack into and out of the barred cage version while the thing inside has cover. Also it has no D. Anchor effect so against most high level monsters it is near useless. Against low level monsters it doesn't matter becuase you won't have it.
stuff
All good point, but cut down on the rhetoric. Let's keep it friendly.
Forcecage gives a save now, [etc.]
Sorry missed that :-)
No problem I did too the first time around, so I mention it for other's benefit.
I'm kind of miffed that all the spells are so nerfed now. I can't even stop a dragon from eating a dwarf, becuase the one spell that would have been perfect before now allows a save throw.
That's my main issue really. Monster save throws are off the charts and it's just more exagerated with outsiders and dragons. You need non-save or huge SoD effects becuase the monsters don't even pause when you throw a spell at them that allows a save.
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Answer: The DM can't throw a situation at the group that are
unbalanced. Would you throw a lvl 15 wizard vs. a lvl 3 party etc.?
This is slightly different, because if I have a 15th level Evoker w/o transmutation spells standing up to a 15th plain mage with 2 force cages geuss whose in trouble... Should I have to sacrifice all my evoker powers to defend against this?
The DM can't throw a situation at the group that they don't want/like. Because if he/she does it again and again they will change DM.
This is kind of sacrificial lamb here isn't it? I don't think my friends would be angry if I decided to throw a dragon at them if they don't like dragons.
The DM can't play a game the players don't enjoy. Because if he/she does they will change DM.
And agree, Forcecage is perhaps to good.
So what about the designers who created those encounters that the DM is now running? Are they to be held to the same standards? Should I stop playing Shackled City (a Paizo Product) because the designers created situations that can screw the party?
I never said that I was creating these encounters. I'm talking about published modules.
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But that brings up another good (and tangentiel) question: How much time do you spend editing encounters from published modules?
Me, next to none. I pretty much leave them alone.
Even if you don't have transmutation it's not a problem. Teleport and D. Door will still get you out. Force cage is barely a delaying tactic.
I've never seen a situation in a module where the players are completely incapable of doing anything to get out of a bad situation that the players did not bring down upon themselves. A module that has a forcecage effect in it will generally be higher level, or have a reason beyond "here's a forcecage that you can't deal with" behind it.
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Even if you don't have transmutation it's not a problem. Teleport and D. Door will still get you out. Force cage is barely a delaying tactic.
I've never seen a situation in a module where the players are completely incapable of doing anything to get out of a bad situation that the players did not bring down upon themselves. A module that has a forcecage effect in it will generally be higher level, or have a reason beyond "here's a forcecage that you can't deal with" behind it.
Don't read the spoiler if you're playing Shackled City!!!
This is your only warning!
In one part of the game we went to an area that had three hag-like monsters who could cast force cage. We were level 9 at the time, which was slightly higher than the suggested level (if I believe our DM). In that fight the hags cast force cage on our barbarian-fighter at the end of the hallway in which the encounter was supposed to take place. Not only was he stuck there, it allowed the hags to escape by blocking the rest of us. There was no way that we had a disintegrate with us as no one was even high enough level to cast it. Neither did we have a rod of cancellation.
And just about all of those spells need to be nerfed in some way or another.Maybe when you start to reach the point where you need to basically rewrite an entire level range for half the classes... maybe you don't really want to play this game anymore.
Or maybe I'd like to see it fixed before the Beta ends and the final release comes out?
Also: why can I hack down a Bigby's Hand - a Force effect - but I can't do ANY damage to a Wall of Force? Anyone want to explain that to me? Anyone?This was discussed earlier.
I don't recall an answer being provided. Well, a good one, anyway.
All magical solutions.Yes. Can we please get off this "high level gameplay can't even trust to have access to potions" bull? Seriously? You are describing a game that is VASTLY different from the core rules if you don't even let your Fighters buy a potion. For crying out loud.
I don't have an objection to Fighters buying the potions or using them, but I do object to the retarded spell mechanics of both Protection from Evil and Dominate Person. Dominate Person was an overpowered spell with insufficient mitigation, so instead of fixing it, they just amped up Protection From Evil to provide a hotfix. And if we're going to be slapping on a Service Pack to 3.X like it was a Windows box, we should probably get these poor mechanics repaired once and for all.
Okay.. so first we are talking about a wizard flying around over the wall firing spells off... but then we are talking about blocking a cave wall (where the wizard couldn't have line of effect either) and somehow still beating them... or then, it's really a big group of creatures attacking the fighter trying to climb the wall (which begs the question.. if they can hit him, why can't he hit them?).And then they get killed while trying to climb the wall. Usually in very heavy armor to boot! Probably the most embarrassing way to die in a D&D game - getting hacked to pieces while trying to/after scaling a Wall Of Force. :lol:
Even better - a Wall Of Force cast in a dungeon where it is flush with the walls and floors. Can't climb that, kids!
The big issue with Wall of Force is splitting parties. It's not about keeping everyone out - it's about dividing and conquering. You can do this much more easily in a dungeon setting, but it's still a significant impediment in a less restricted combat setting as well. Even if you Jump or Fly over it, unless your party is doing it en masse, you're still placing yourself in a situation where the full power of the party cannot be brought to bear and you're singling yourself out to soak up SoS or SoD effects.
And really.. the proposal is to make it take a long time to destroy the wall of force. How is that going to resolve any of the unbeatable situations?
It doesn't resolve them completely. But if you mitigate the effects of Wall of Force AND your SoD and SoS spells, then you end up with a situation where Team Monster (or the players) reap some significant benefits from splitting the party, but aren't given the opportunity to disable or wipe half of the party in just a few rounds.
Are we supposed to be having a discussion here, or just tossing out ridiculous examples?
No, we are supposed to be having a discussion. But some of these examples aren't as ridiculous as you might think.
What the heck are you talking about? "Power level of over 9000"? Who uses terms like this in D&D?
You're showing your age, Kaisoku! :lol:
The wall can only be created in 10' squares. If you want any distance sideways, you are looking at 10' maybe 20' tall. A Monk can jump that easily at low levels, from standing (please read what Monks can do when it comes to jumping, they have many bonuses and removal of limits).
They can jump over the wall, but I know if I had a Monk, I wouldn't want to unless I absolutely had to. Better to stick with the party so they can provide assistance instead of going toe-to-toe with Team Monster. That's the key with Wall Of Force - separating individuals from their parties so you can burn them down one at a time.
Ultimately what is happening here is that a few people (esp. Sueki) are playing the game in a way that it was not meant to be played. Normally, I hate saying that... but when you want to rewrite practically everything over a certain level, you gotta take a step back and reevaluate what you are wanting here.
We're playing the game without tropes and without pulling our punches. A lot of what happens in higher-level 3.X games is contrived because the rules are out of whack. You have GMs refusing to allow their BBEGs to "play to win" because they know that if they did, they would wipe the floor with their players (unless they are all spellcasters, and then it becomes a game of Rocket Tag). Once you get over 10th level, the game breaks down, and spellcasters rule the roost.
Honestly.. from all the posts asking for tearing down nearly every single high level magical thing in this game.. why are you still playing core D&D? Why not 4e, or E6 or something similar?
Because 4E managed to get some things right while simultaneously screwing a bunch more things up. And E6 isn't a game system at all - it's just a subtle way of acknowledging that 3.X is broken.
Clearly people liked playing this game the way it was in 3.5. There's a lot of people out there who still think that Pathfinder might be on the verge of "changing too much". The stated goal of Pathfinder is to keep 3.5e alive, not break down the entire game and remake it into Iron Heroes.
I know that I loved playing 3.5 whenever I played a spellcaster! But all of my other characters ended up getting the shaft and ultimately became irrelevant at higher levels of play. That's how 3.X rolls, and that's why there's a clearly defined Tier system of classes.
I think that Pathfinder has a good chance of changing some of the mechanics of 3.X and becoming a better system for it - one that is better then 4E - but unless we start balancing higher-level magic and mellowing the rules mechanics so that it's not Rocket Tag for either spellcasters or non-spellcasters, it's just going to end up being a big "spellcaster sausage party" in Golarion.
And on that note, I am leaving the forums for a while to play Street Fighter HD Remix and Street Fighter 4 (which comes out Tuesday).
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You can just read my letters or actually try to get my points. theu my not be bright, but I'm not that bright. But just do the automatic reply stuff is pretty useless. I'm not into war.
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stuffYou can just read my letters or actually try to get my points. theu my not be bright, but I'm not that bright. But just do the automatic reply stuff is pretty useless. I'm not into war.
Typically i'm not either, but something like this is a hot-button for me because I think spells like this are blatantly abusive. Eh, this just shows that everyone sees things differently.
:)
stuffAll good point, but cut down on the rhetoric. Let's keep it friendly.
Yeah, sorry about that. Nerd rage taking over.
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This really boils down to two vastly different opinions of how much change Pathfinder should bring.
I've personally played in high level D&D games, and most of the time as some kind of melee centric non-caster, and have never run into the issues being touted as for reasons of change. Or rather... most of the issues were non-issues to our gaming group (I wasn't feeling useless as a non-caster).
I say most... I can still see the value in some of the changes out there (see my posts on fighter changes, etc).
Then again, the gaming groups I've played in mostly kept to core rules with a few select splatbooks (and of those, not many non-wotc).
What the heck are you talking about? "Power level of over 9000"? Who uses terms like this in D&D?You're showing your age, Kaisoku! :lol:
Meh, I guess you can call me a grognard.
Don't read the spoiler if you're playing Shackled City!!!This is your only warning!
** spoiler omitted **
See, from my point of view, that's an awesome use of the spell. It means the enemies get away, true. But they're defeated in the context of the encounter which means full XPs for the PCs AND it means the DM may have a recurring villain or three to have fun with and enhance the continuity of the campaign arc.
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See, from my point of view, that's an awesome use of the spell. It means the enemies get away, true. But they're defeated in the context of the encounter which means full XPs for the PCs AND it means the DM may have a recurring villain or three to have fun with and enhance the continuity of the campaign arc.
The problem was that the guy stuck in there was stuck in there for one and a half sessions, and we were bogged down trying to think of ways to free him. He was in there for 20 hours of in game time in the middle of the dungeon with things threatening us as well. We made and broke camp during that time and sat around.
Also, I wouldn't have ruled that we'd get xp for defeating the enemies here. They defeated us, held us in place for 20 hours, got to heal, and then were ready for us again the next time.
Yes, it was a good use of the spell. Too good in fact. That's the problem.