Kobolds as PCs...Why?!


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I don't know if this fad has passed, or if it existed prior or since the end of the 3e era, but help me out here...what exactly is the appeal? In terms of their in-game/rp situation, they're cannon fodder. The lowest of the low. They're like high school jock wanna-bes; they think they have a claim to fame because they're scaly like dragons, but even the dragons use them as trainable maggots. In terms of their mechanical situation...well in earlier editions they're blatantly inferior to literally everyone else. In 4e they're roughly balanced with other PC races, but still...meh.

Please, help me understand. I just don't get it.

TS


It must be their personalities. Isn't there a +14 Charisma bonus for kobold player characters? It factors in their adorable looks as well as their great interpersonal skills.

:D

Scarab Sages

They are the ultimite D&D underdogs kind of like yap yap dogs, most people don't give them a thought but a small very vocal group love them and force them on others. You should ask Kobold Cleaver he should a very verbose answer for you.

Who loves ya KC, we all do, you scaly maniac.


It's the same thing as playing goblins. It's great for Beer and nuts adventures.

Beyond that I have a name for you to look up... Pun-Pun...

3.5 was really really nice to the kobold... I would have to say they are one of the most overpowered races in the game, with gnomes going neck and neck with them.


I'm just in the process of building one.

In one of the games I'm running, a couple of kobolds surrendered early on and have hung around as NPCs. Snaggletooth is currently helping the party out on the basis that they're the only people around strong enough to rescue his friend. Anyway, the pc kobold is a kind of tribute to their enduring (and quite endearing) practicality.

Kobolds know they're the runts of the litter, so they take what they can get, any way they can get it. If that means learning to be heroic, then so be it. Plus of course, the shifty ability combined with a swordmage's lightning lure ought to be a dashed useful combat combination.


Cause they're the closest thing to playing a talking humanoid chihuahua as your gonna get without everyone else knowing that's what your doing.

Don't get me wrong, I love the little ankle-crackers.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

There was a short-lived fad on the LotC (oops, I meant WotC) Character Optimization boards that exploited aspects of the kobold race. (I'm remembering a suggestion that the little fellers get a negative Level Adjustment, which I'm sure plays into all sorts of cheesy character gimmicks; I know that there as a type of kobold druid thing that abused the ability bonus rules with its animal companion, which required the druid to be reptilian.)


Pun-Pun the infinite loop shapechanging into a Sarrukh craziness.

LotC? Is that a jibe of some kind?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Lizards of the Coast?

I think we can trace 3/x Kobold love to one little critter.

Meepo.

I mean most of the sunless citadel stories I hear involve doing everything with Meepo except killing him. He's like WotC's own Jar Jar, but people like him instead.

That said, Zobeck Kobolds rock!

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Matthew Morris wrote:

Lizards of the Coast?

I think we can trace 3/x Kobold love to one little critter.

Meepo.

I mean most of the sunless citadel stories I hear involve doing everything with Meepo except killing him. He's like WotC's own Jar Jar, but people like him instead.

That said, Zobeck Kobolds rock!

Edit:

The Black Bard wrote:
Cause they're the closest thing to playing a talking humanoid chihuahua as your gonna get without everyone else knowing that's what your doing.

That's so cool. My roommate has a rat, er chihuahua, named Rocky. Anyone know what's Polish or Russian for Rocky? I now have a new NPC to pook fun at her rodent with.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Matthew Morris wrote:
Anyone know what's Polish or Russian for Rocky? I now have a new NPC to pook fun at her rodent with.

In Russian: &#1091;&#1090;&#1077;&#1089;&#1080;&#1089;&#109 0;&#1086;

That would be "utesisto" (ie: oo-tes-EE-sto, I think)

Although that would be in the literal sense of "having lots of rocks".

Then of course there is the less formal version: "skvurrel".
(As in "moos end skvurrel".)

EDIT: Guess the Paizo boards can't handle Cyrillic characters. Go figure. Maybe there should be a BBCode for that...

Incidentally, I show squirrel as "byelka". That sounds like a cool character name to me...

Scarab Sages

Matthew Morris wrote:

Lizards of the Coast?

I think we can trace 3/x Kobold love to one little critter.

Meepo.

I was going to say the same thing. Before Meepo, kobolds were mere cannon-fodder. Then in some strange quirk of fate everyone (except me) seems to have had eerily similar experiences RPing through Sunless Citidal. They all adopted Meepo as some sort of group mascot. Its so bad I even have an epic-Meepo figurine released by WotC.

Meepo somehow gave the kobold race a face that it had lacked before and suddenly everyone loves them. They go from cannon fodder to tragic villains and all because of one single named npc kobold.


Don't forget Deekin from NWN...

Scarab Sages

Abraham spalding wrote:
Don't forget Deekin from NWN...

I must not have made it that far in NWN. Who is Deekin?

Whoever he is, he obviously does not have the name recognition of Meepo. ;)

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Please, help me understand. I just don't get it.

I built a group of 10 kobold NPCs (one for each core class except Monk) for a 3.0 campaign I ran several years ago. The kobolds, henceforth known as the Clan of the Burning Hand, had taken over an abandoned castle and kidnapped someone the PC knew or needed (I don't remember the specifics).

Anyway, the PCs approached to talk to them and we had a bit of a Monty Python Holy Grail moment. Finally, the party Rogue got fed up with all the talking and decided to lead the party in storming the castle. I distinctly remember him saying "They're just kobolds!"

His character died the first round. Never even made it through the gate.

Surprisingly, the Bard Kobold was the only member of the Clan of the Burning Hand to survive. Last Friday, during our STAP sesssion, there was a Clan of the Burning Hand reference. Whenever something seems simple, but likely includes hidden dangers, the guys will say "They're just kobolds!"

Man, we've gotten alot of mileage out of that.

-Skeld


Even before Meepo, there were stories of Tucker's Kobolds or the nasty buggers from Dragon Mountain to keep PCs wary of the underdogs. Personally, I've been a fan of kobolds ever since I saw that old picture of one in a loincloth killing a snake with a spear. When the Dragon article came along asking "Hey, wanna be a kobold (orc, goblin or xvart)?" the answer was an enthusiastic "yes! (to all three)" I'm not a fan of the kobold's inexplicable morph into dragon kin in 3rd ed, and dislike nearly everything about their write-up in races of the dragon (the origins of the kobold/gnome conflict in particular). I have little to no experience with 4th ed, but I do know that in 3rd Ed, a kobold pc (or a goblin) is size small without the annoying 20' move on the gnome and halfling.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Because Kobolds are fun to play :D They are the master race.


Wicht wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Don't forget Deekin from NWN...

I must not have made it that far in NWN. Who is Deekin?

Whoever he is, he obviously does not have the name recognition of Meepo. ;)

I don't know Meepo, but I definitely know Deekin. Deekin was an NPC henchman introduced in Shadows of Undrentide, the first NWN expansion. He was a kobold bard who had failed a white dragon and was afraid to go back to his clan so asked if he could follow the PC around instead. As you played through the game, he would randomly sing and say things outloud. He sang "The Doom Song," which was basically the word "doom" said over and over in different ways to music (and it included voice of him singing badly) and he would ask questions like "Boss, Deekin wondering, in all we travels, why Deekin never see any cats?" (NWN didn't include a cat model in the official materials.) He also returned as a henchman in the second NWN expansion.

I didn't start playing D&D until 3.5 Edition--I got some 3e FR books (FRCS & F&P) before 3.5e but didn't get the core books until the new 3.5e books came out. The only experience I had with kobolds prior to that was in Baldur's Gate (the CRPG)...those accursed kobolds in Nashkel Mines with flaming arrows really stuck with me and to this day I think about them when I think of kobolds.

I think kobolds were changed to be lizard-like to help differentiate them from some of the other small humanoid races. They still bark though.


I don't believe I've ever had a PC want to play a kobold, but I deo know I hate the "cannon fodder" mentality. Look at your standard dwarf in the Monster Manual. What is it? CR 1/2, I believe. Hell, look at drow. They're only listed as CR 1. Yet everyone seems to understand that's not the real case, because they can be leveled. They are both races, and most of the one's you meet aren't going to be the 1st level warriors the Monster Manual defaults to.

So, then, why on earth does everyone think that kobolds and orcs and goblins are different? Why are they always relegated to the less-than-CR-1 status? They are races just like humans and elves and gnomes. They can be leveled just the same, possess cultures, and be real influences on the world around them.

I actually say most campaigns would be more balanced, mechanically, if they featured more leveled humanoids as foes. One of the biggest complaints people have about the "weaknesses" of fighters is that, at higher levels, all the opponents are Large-sized and use natural weapons which cannot be sundered or disarmed. Viola, use more orcs and goblins! Suddenly, the foes are Medium or even small and they all use manufactured weapons. Now sundering, disarming, and tripping are still valuable and viable tactics.

Not to mention, many settings (particularly FR) feature stories of empire on empire toppled long ago by the evil humanoid races. It's always kind of hard to imagine that being the case if the species is composed nearly totally of 1st level warrior cannon fodder. But if they are treated like every other race running around D&D, and given class levels; then, whoa, it's a very believable and credible history!

One can love kobolds and their ilk and still leave them as villains.


Thanks everyone! I still think kobolds are ugly dirty little villains, but at least now I get why they're popular.

TS


Tequila Sunrise wrote:
In terms of their in-game/rp situation, they're cannon fodder. The lowest of the low. They're like high school jock wanna-bes; they think they have a claim to fame because they're scaly like dragons, but even the dragons use them as trainable maggots. In terms of their mechanical situation...well in earlier editions they're blatantly inferior to literally everyone else. In 4e they're roughly balanced with other PC races, but still...meh.

I beg to differ. :P

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

My very first introduction to kobolds was prior to D&D in the form of the Magic Kingdom for Sale book series. The two kobolds in that book, Bunyon and Parsnip, were portrayed as absolute ass-kickers and that has always been my lingering view of kobolds, despite their less-than-stellar reputation in D&D. I picture them as being slightly larger versions of the Gremlins (from the movies) - scaly little bastards that are vicious and full of teeth.

They're like halflings, but cool.

Liberty's Edge

Wolf Munroe wrote:
*snip*

Neverwinter Nights Hordes of the Underdark Spoiler:

Spoiler:
Nothing beats the end of the game where you face down with Mephistopheles and he tries to get Deeking to join him and you say something along the following:
Player: You can join him Deekin, but I'll miss you...
To which Deekin replies (to Mephistopheles)
Deekin: Deekin no join you! You may be powerful but you not boss and you make Deekin sooooo mad!

That single part made that whole game for me. *tear*


Gene wrote:
Wolf Munroe wrote:
*snip*

Neverwinter Nights Hordes of the Underdark Spoiler:

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

Thanks for sharing that! I never finished Hordes of the Underdark with Deekin, so I never knew about that. I tried going with the drow rogue and whoever the tiefling weapon master was. The drow stuck with me, but the bastard tiefling turned and joined the devil even though I had always favored him over the elf!

Liberty's Edge

Saern wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
No problem man! It's hilarious watching a kobold bard/dragon disciple tell an archdevil to go screw himself. :)

I know the sting of betrayal as well. I had ghostly Aribeth with me; even had her to the 'love' stage and she still screwed me over. Beastly wench!

No matter. Deekin was my favorite anyways.


A smart kobold would speak Common normally, albeit perhaps with a bit of improper grammar. After all, it isn't really his first language. But they are NOT stupid!
Goblins neither. A bit disorganized perhaps, especially because of the low Charisma, but Pathfinder treats them like morons. No offense, Pathfinder folks. But neither goblins nor kobolds are 'stupid' in any way.
I like to compare goblins to pirates, and kobolds to the Nazis/Romans. The goblins are not incredibly orderly, but they can grasp tactics as well as anybody.
While kobolds are orderly, which makes up for their small size. They are much better at organized tactics than goblins, because they are LE and thus get along better. They are unlikely to sell out their friends/tribe for gold.
Neither are stupid.
Okay, I'm done explaining that. Now, as Ubermench promised, prepare for my explanation. Sorry for the lateness. :)
People like kobolds because they are small and cute, foremost. But also, because ya gotta love the underdog. They may not really be underdogs, but they appear so. They look weak, and so players sometimes like to make them out as otherwise. Kobolds can be strong (figuratively), can be tough, and can be hard to beat. They can win.
Others perceive it as a roleplaying challenge. They want to see how well they can play a kobold, how it turns out.
Another reason is powergaming. With the right stats, a kobold can be seriously powerful. Even with only a 12 rolled for Dex, and no armor, the kobold has a 14 AC. Add some padded/Leather armor, and bring it up to 15 or 16. Even better armor, and maybe some Improved Natural Armor (requiring a decent Con, of course)and the kobold becomes very hard to hit. Then, add a crossbow to that kobold, and give him the rogue class. Now he has Sneak Attack. Very tough to beat indeed.
Also, kobolds look awesome. Descended from dragons? Tiny but adorable (and potentially deadly)lizard man? I'm probably not the right one to ask, but kobolds are pretty damn cool.
In my own homebrew, kobolds are basically businessmen. They are better at mining than teh dwarves, and so they bought the dwarves out. Then, they stopped selling any ore to the dwarves. The dwarves were deprived of any business. They only agreed to sell the dwarves ore if the dwarves agreed to work for them, and even then the kobolds charged outrageous prices.
Because, fact is, kobolds are better at mining than the dwarves. Dwarves are only particularly good at smithing.
But that's just how I run my homebrew. I'm not telling anyone else to. :)
Anyways, kobolds are generally played because they look so damn CUTE! :D

Liberty's Edge

PlungingForward wrote:
Even before Meepo, there were stories of Tucker's Kobolds or the nasty buggers from Dragon Mountain to keep PCs wary of the underdogs.

Feh. Those stories never impressed me. All they do is demonstrate just how much a DM can get up in self-indulgence at the expense of the players.

Tucker's Kobolds was an example of how to abuse traps and excessive equipment while pretending the challenge was "just" some kobolds. The PCs never fought the kobolds, they just ran through endless gauntlets with kobold mocking them. The same thing could be done with goblins, orcs, ogres, or storm giants, with identical results. Using kobolds to reset all those traps was just an ego thing.
Dragon Mountain was worse. Half of the "challenge" of the kobolds in that was the deliberate ignoring of standard rules to negate multiple attacks, allow kobolds to use pole-arms, and more. Any creatures becomes a lot tougher if you just ignore the rules.

In 3E terms:
Tucker's Kobolds is a bunch of CR 5 traps using CR 1/4 creatures to work the reset mechanisms, along with giving the CR 1/4 creatures excess equipment and terrain bonuses, and not including that in the encounter EL.
Dragon Mountain is ignoring iterative attacks, giving the kobolds excessive equipment, and giving the kobolds 2-4 bonus feats, and pretending that does not change the CR.
Neither impresses me.

As for Meepo, my players just gave him a boot on the snout when he whined at them, then went off to become dragonslayers.


Samuel Weiss wrote:
PlungingForward wrote:
Even before Meepo, there were stories of Tucker's Kobolds or the nasty buggers from Dragon Mountain to keep PCs wary of the underdogs.

Feh. Those stories never impressed me. All they do is demonstrate just how much a DM can get up in self-indulgence at the expense of the players.

Tucker's Kobolds was an example of how to abuse traps and excessive equipment while pretending the challenge was "just" some kobolds. The PCs never fought the kobolds, they just ran through endless gauntlets with kobold mocking them. The same thing could be done with goblins, orcs, ogres, or storm giants, with identical results. Using kobolds to reset all those traps was just an ego thing.
Dragon Mountain was worse. Half of the "challenge" of the kobolds in that was the deliberate ignoring of standard rules to negate multiple attacks, allow kobolds to use pole-arms, and more. Any creatures becomes a lot tougher if you just ignore the rules.

In 3E terms:
Tucker's Kobolds is a bunch of CR 5 traps using CR 1/4 creatures to work the reset mechanisms, along with giving the CR 1/4 creatures excess equipment and terrain bonuses, and not including that in the encounter EL.
Dragon Mountain is ignoring iterative attacks, giving the kobolds excessive equipment, and giving the kobolds 2-4 bonus feats, and pretending that does not change the CR.
Neither impresses me.

As for Meepo, my players just gave him a boot on the snout when he whined at them, then went off to become dragonslayers.

I sense resentment...;)

But kobolds are good at traps, it's why they're tough.
And no, none of the other races which you named would be able to do it. They have to be clever, and more importantly, organized. None of those races are both LE and good with traps.
So stop ranting, before I'm forced to respond in turn.


I was certain this thread was started precisely to torment KC -- which is why I read it as soon as I saw it. Yep, they're scrawny and pitiful, ain't they? Let us go on asking...why?


Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
I was certain this thread was started precisely to torment KC -- which is why I read it as soon as I saw it. Yep, they're scrawny and pitiful, ain't they? Let us go on asking...why?

...and let me continue to shoot the kobold-haters.

*Shoots crossbow*

Liberty's Edge

Better watch out, Mairkurion! Ya might get a toothpick in your bark.


Who said that we hate them? They are so far beneath the greatness that is in all Dragons that we just ignore them. Hell, cockroaches are further up on the food chain than Kobolds are! ~Wicked Smile~


Saying that Kobolds suck is giving them wayyyyyyyyyyyy too much credit!

Liberty's Edge

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I sense resentment...;)

But kobolds are good at traps, it's why they're tough.
And no, none of the other races which you named would be able to do it. They have to be clever, and more importantly, organized. None of those races are both LE and good with traps.
So stop ranting, before I'm forced to respond in turn.

No, you sense disdain for weak design.

If you want to put kobolds against the PCs then do so.
If you want to put a bunch of traps against the PCs, then do not pretend it is the kobolds they are fighting.
If you want to put a bunch of equipment against the PCs, likewise do not pretend it is the kobolds they are fighting.
If you want to change a whole bunch of rules and create a new monster and put that against the PCs, again do not pretend is is kobolds they are fighting.

I like using kobolds. They are fun little critters. They deserve better than having their name stolen for cheap tricks.


Samuel Weiss wrote:


Feh. Those stories never impressed me. All they do is demonstrate just how much a DM can get up in self-indulgence at the expense of the players.
Tucker's Kobolds was an example of how to abuse traps and excessive equipment while pretending the challenge was "just" some kobolds. The PCs never fought the kobolds, they just ran through endless gauntlets with kobold mocking them. The same thing could be done with goblins, orcs, ogres, or storm giants, with identical results. Using kobolds to reset all those traps was just an ego thing.

I had a similar reaction to the Tucker article. I mean, I think it's great to shake up racial cliches once in a while, but from what I gather from the article (not much actual info) the kobolds themselves weren't the challenge. It was really just Tucker being extra sadistic to his players. Not that I'm knocking him; I have great respect for any fellow DM who can make his players wet themselves with such ease.

It's just that he could have made them equally terrified of dare I say it--dragons--or ogres or mermaids or elves or oozes and fungi.

TS

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

Add me to the "not a fan of Tucker's kobolds" list. One of the more egregious examples of a DM's pet monster. I think I've been ranting about that for more than a decade :)

Scarab Sages

For all those who hate Tucker's Kobolds, God forbid you should ever have the misfortune to watch 'Seven Samurai', wherein a village of zero-level peasants (or even minus-level peasants, since they're played in the beginning as borderline moronic) do the exact same thing, and channel a band of experienced warriors to their deaths, using simple wooden tools and readily available materials.

You'd better ring up Akira Kurosawa, and tell him he's an idiot who's doing it wrong.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

Snorter wrote:
You'd better ring up Akira Kurosawa, and tell him he's an idiot who's doing it wrong.

First, I think I'll ring him up and tell him someone somehow managed to miss seeing all seven samurai in his film...

Seriously, that's quite the strawman you've got there.Disliking Tucker's kobolds doesn't mean you're calling Kurosawa an idiot, and the implication is insulting. What I don't like about Tucker's kobolds as a DM pet doesn't have to do with the traps. It has to do with the perfect knowledge of what the party is up to, the glossing over of rules of the game, and in general the DM using out-of-NPC knowledge to somehow prove to players that a weak monster is a threat. Kobolds aren't the only monsters who get used this way, but they're one of the most frequent offenders.

Scarab Sages

The Idiot villagers where guided high level samurai and were told to build the defenses and only at the end after they let most of the true heroes die, the samurai, did they even act at all. It's a bad comparison. If Tucker had seven high level ogres or giants commanding the kobolds and then had the ogres or giants fight for them and die taking out the majority of the adventures and then have the kobolds pick off the stragglers. That might be closer to Akira Kurosawa’s movie. Tucker didn't even have his kobolds build the traps, they just reset them.


Yeah, I agree with everyone that we shouldn't even mention Tucker's kobolds. The guy went out of his way to prove that kobolds can be tough. While they certainly CAN be, if played correctly, they shouldn't be so incredibly prepared.
Here is my idea for a typical kobold encounter for maybe a 1-3 level party:
So the party is walking down a hallway, with a single door at the end. Suddenly, they run into a chest. The rogue starts to open it, but then notices a 'poison' (not really, just a needle actually) needle trap on it. Quickly disabling it, he opens the chest...
...to find mere rocks in it. However, the 4 kobolds on the other side of the door were alert enough to hear the noise he made in opening the chest (probably), and so draw their crossbows. They all ready actions to shoot the first creature to open the door.
The kobolds already had a makeshift barricade set up (perhaps out of a table or two, nothing fancy. Just enough to get the cover), and so when the rogue opens the door, they all fire at him.
While these kobolds are not overpowered, and will probably lose, they can put up a significant fight this way. Also, it is in keeping with a kobold's skills. Kobolds understand that if they put a chest in the adventurers' way, and make it seem guarded, the adventurers will take the bait and make enough noise so that the kobold guards will be ready. And kobolds are familiar enough with ambush tactics to know what do do when they don't have much time.
Their method isn't foolproof of course, but it is still fairly dangerous.

Liberty's Edge

Snorter wrote:

For all those who hate Tucker's Kobolds, God forbid you should ever have the misfortune to watch 'Seven Samurai', wherein a village of zero-level peasants (or even minus-level peasants, since they're played in the beginning as borderline moronic) do the exact same thing, and channel a band of experienced warriors to their deaths, using simple wooden tools and readily available materials.

You'd better ring up Akira Kurosawa, and tell him he's an idiot who's doing it wrong.

Russ Taylor and Ubermench sum up my response.

Did you just watch The Three Amigos and think it was a scene by scene remake of The Seven Samurai?

Scarab Sages

Do you forbid the 1st-level PCs in your games from digging pits?
Guess it's all the high-level PCs have to pull latrine duty, then.

Or setting up stakes in those pits?
Or covering those stakes in noxious excrement, to kill intruders slowly and painfully on their way home?
Or digging a network of disguised tunnels, allowing surprise hit and run attacks?
Or setting up barricades?
Or setting tripwires?
Or throwing flasks of oil?
Or covering a net with dirt and leaves?
Or filling up baskets of rocks, either to use as dropped weapons, or as counterweights for a trap?
Or pouring grease or fat on an unused narrow ledge?
Or luring intruders onto a greasy ledge?
Or using echoes to give false impressions of numbers?
Or wearing clothes, since you (apparently) need to be CR 5 to tie a knot?

Try telling a player, who sets his henchmen these tasks, that he comes back to find them squatting in their own dung, eating their own snot, and explaining that they never started, because they didn't understand the orders.

Liberty's Edge

Snorter wrote:
Do you forbid the 1st-level PCs in your games from digging pits?

I do not have to. The players in my game rarely, if ever, stand still long enough to set up defenses like that.

However, when they have, their preparations are taken into account in determining the monster forces available to attack them.

Tell me, do you allow the 1st-level PCs in your games to have 50 flasks of alchemist's fire on their first adventure?
Or 50 tanglefoot bags?
Or 50 doses of greenblood oil?
Or allow them to set up camp outside the dungeon and wait for everything inside to come out and assault their prepared base?
Or inflict the frightened condition on all encounters because they make so much noise the monsters think an army is coming for them?

Try telling a player, who thought the equipment allowances and challenge ratings in the books meant something, that they can have an infinite amount of equipment, including magic items, and explaining that because they get it they should not complain about fighting an ancient red dragon in their first adventure because you figured they would prepare properly.

Or try telling a player that after going through 50 CR worth of traps their characters are still only 1st level because you think traps are part of the inherent CR of a creature that has a rank in Craft (trapmaking).

Dark Archive

Abraham spalding wrote:
Don't forget Deekin from NWN...

I liked Deek, but I enjoyed the kobold bucket jump even more. Not to mention the best use of a cattle stampede ever in an RPG.


When are we discussing Kobolds as Familiars or Animal companions? Maybe crazy avatars as well?


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I serously doubt there ever was an actual 'Tucker'. My bet is the article was all Roger Moore.

That said I actually liked the way the idea of 'Tucker's' Kobolds shifted adventure design. While I agree that there are some issues with the design choices made for adventures such as Dragon Mountain and the Dungeon Magazine Classic Tallow's Deep. In general the movement to make humanoids more then just cannon fodder led to much more interesting and authentic feeling adventures. The creatures did not just become better at making traps they became much deeper and more thought out creatures. More thought was put into their living environments as well.

This is made particularly clear if one compares the original Keep on the Borderlands with the Silver Anniversary version Return to the Keep on the Borderlands. Both feature kobolds living in the same place but Return's Kobolds are much deeper and more interesting. Their living environment has features that delve further into what it is they do and how they live their lives. Furthermore they are, in general, both more cunning AND more humorous. They are excellent in both roles and there is a place in Dungeons and Dragons for creatures with such roles.

I've personally run both Keep on the Borderlands and Return to the Keep on the Borderlands multiple times for different groups and I can vouch for the fact that the kobolds in Return to the Keep on the Borderlands are much more memorable then the original version. In fact there is a tendency for them to steal the show. My current group still talks about them and their penchant for back tracking to the players mules and horses and eating them and then they meander off into other interesting things they encountered when facing those Kobolds. The climatic encounters in that adventure have long ago faded from memory but the kobolds live on as a fondly remembered part of D&D. I can't think of a higher endorsement then that.


Samuel Weiss wrote:
Snorter wrote:
Do you forbid the 1st-level PCs in your games from digging pits?

I do not have to. The players in my game rarely, if ever, stand still long enough to set up defenses like that.

However, when they have, their preparations are taken into account in determining the monster forces available to attack them.

Tell me, do you allow the 1st-level PCs in your games to have 50 flasks of alchemist's fire on their first adventure?
Or 50 tanglefoot bags?
Or 50 doses of greenblood oil?
Or allow them to set up camp outside the dungeon and wait for everything inside to come out and assault their prepared base?
Or inflict the frightened condition on all encounters because they make so much noise the monsters think an army is coming for them?

Well, giving a 1st-level PC who was a trap fanatic two flasks of alchemist's fire and two tanglefoot bags wouldn't be unreasonable. If there were 25 kobalds then 50 each doesn't seem bad. I'm not sure what greenblood oil so I can't comment.

And a siege adventure, where the PCs have to figure out how to hold off an invading force could be fun for some groups. It's different from the norm, but it works.

And if the PCs came up with a clever way to seems more intimidating then they really are I think it would be reasonable to make the invaders hesitant and cautious.

I dunno, it doesn't seem that bad to me.

Liberty's Edge

AshVelveteen wrote:
Well, giving a 1st-level PC who was a trap fanatic two flasks of alchemist's fire and two tanglefoot bags wouldn't be unreasonable. If there were 25 kobalds then 50 each doesn't seem bad. I'm not sure what greenblood oil so I can't comment.

No, not two, 50. They need enough for every round of every encounter, including multiple repeats against certain monsters, so they can be as tough as Tucker's Kobolds.

Note that alchemists' fire is 20 gp per flask and tanglefoot bags are 50 gp per flask. That is 3,500 gp of equipment for each 1st level PC.
Greenblood is a weak poison that does 1 Con/1d2 Con damage on an injury with a DC 13. It is commonly used by derro. It costs 100 gp for each dose, so add another 5,000 gp of equipment for each PC.

Does that sill not seem so bad?

AshVelveteen wrote:
And a siege adventure, where the PCs have to figure out how to hold off an invading force could be fun for some groups. It's different from the norm, but it works.

Yes it can, a lot of fun, for the PCs.

Assaulting a fortress or similar prepared position where the difficult of the traps and terrain is not considered as part of the challenge is something considerably different.

AshVelveteen wrote:
And if the PCs came up with a clever way to seems more intimidating then they really are I think it would be reasonable to make the invaders hesitant and cautious.

Not hesitant and cautious, but actively frightened as per the condition. That is a specific game effect, and granting it freely, as not including the DC of traps as a relevant factor, is highly unbalancing.

Dark Archive

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:

I serously doubt there ever was an actual 'Tucker'. My bet is the article was all Roger Moore.

That said I actually liked the way the idea of 'Tucker's' Kobolds shifted adventure design. While I agree that there are some issues with the design choices made for adventures such as Dragon Mountain and the Dungeon Magazine Classic Tallow's Deep. In general the movement to make humanoids more then just cannon fodder led to much more interesting and authentic feeling adventures. The creatures did not just become better at making traps they became much deeper and more thought out creatures. More thought was put into their living environments as well.

A few years back, I was running an RPGA adventure which had taken some of it's material directly from Moore's description of Tucker's Kobolds. Just like in Moore's story the kobolds attacked the PCs from murder holes along the wall of the passage, and then they had barricades set up that they also sniped at PCs from behind. The players were at their wits end, until one of them had the brilliant idea to negotiate with the kobolds. By finding out what the kobolds motivation was, they were able to complete their mission and keep the kobolds from killing them. They even managed to negotiate for a kobold to guide them to where they needed to get to.

Shadow Lodge

I have liked kobolds since I saw the drawing of the kobold carrying the "fishing pole" with a live scorpion tied at the end of the line. (Can anyone recall what book that was in? It was 1st edition I think). Something about that picture and the sheer brutality of it stuck with me. I recall thinking "Here is a a race of small, weak creatures, undoubtedly bullied and enslaved by their stronger neighbors when not eaten outright. They must know a great deal about suffering and the very *last* thing I would want to do is end up in their clutches." Even today, that image stays with me. These guys will drop you into a pit and derive pleasure by dipping twines with live scorpions down upon you, wagering in their yapping tongue how many more stings you can take before you claw your own eyes out.

I used kobolds in my game. My party is rightfully afraid of them. Their tunnels are narrow and filled with simple traps (spiked pits, deadfalls, and "pet vermin"). The kobolds use hit and run tactics, relying on their small size and the terrain to wear groups down. They have little in the way of wealth or equipment, so they and their traps are not sophisticated, but that does not make them any less frightening.

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