The Will save for baleful polymorph is just to stay intelligent. Becoming a snail is pretty much the same as killing you regardless of what you were before (unless you have polymorph self or similar as a spell-like or supernatural ability - in which case flesh to stone would be a better option than baleful polymorph). Oh, and there's another facet of that which I forgot to mention - cure X wounds and heal generally don't do anything to save-or-dies or save-or-sucks, whereas a couple of well-timed heals or a mass heal will completely undo everything your wizard has been trying to do by whittling away at the hit points of everything in the fight equally.
As for the rest of your post... average damage (well, expected damage, really, which takes into account likelihood to deal the damage as well as how much damage is dealt) is the only thing that matters. You say "fighters can't do 20d6" as if 20d6 was some Holy Grail of numbers. Even the maximum of 20d6, 120, is less than the archer-fighter's maximum from 12d10+56, 196. Even empowered it only does 180 at most.
AC isn't really a problem for a fighter. It's pretty trivial to get +35-40 on your first attack, which will easily hit any CR20 in the book. Heck, Great Wyrm golds, the highest CR in the Monster Manual, only have 42 AC (though that's pre-spell, of course). Similarly, DR isn't really a problem, either. Not only are there magic weapon properties that essentially read "You ignore DR", it's generally pretty easy to be prepared for any DR you're likely to encounter, especially for archers. Archers can just keep a handful of blessed silver, cold iron, and adamantine arrows in their quivers and ignore 90% of all DRs aside from liches. Other fighters just keep lesser enchanted weapons around.
Wizards have to know ahead of time what they're fighting because it takes a minimum of 15 minutes to memorize a spell (if you leave spell slots open at the start of the day to memorize spells in later). If you guess wrong as a wizard, you're utterly boned. You can't energy substitute your fireball on the fly. If you prepared a lot of fire and acid spells for the day, expecting to walk into a lair of trolls, and find out a black dragon has taken up residence there instead, you're going to be pretty much useless in the fight (especially if the dragon's old enough to have energy resitance type spells to cast to take away your fire spells too). A fighter just shrugs and says "hey, at least it won't regenerate away all my damage!".
(105 damage - 20 resistance) x 0.8* saving throw x .085 spell resistance = (85) x 0.8 x 0.85 = 85 x 0.68 = 57.8 average damage per targetIncorrect. You don't subtract the resistance from the damage before you make saves.
(105 average damage - 20 resistance) * 0.6 chance for full damage = 51.
(52.5 average saved damage - 20 resistance) * 0.4 chance to save for half = 13.
51 + 13 = 64 expected damage pre-SR.
64 * 0.85 = 54.4 expected damage.
So I'm off by 3.4 points average damage per target for subtracting the resistance in the wrong order. ((105 x 0.8) - 20) x 0.85 = 54.4
This is ignoring the fact that you're using a completely min-maxed wizard, and ignoring some of the balor's defenses.
I was comparing a min-maxed evoker's damage output with a min-maxed fighter's damage output, since that was the specific topic under discussion. Also, I wasn't ignoring the balors' defenses; the PFBeta evoker gains a specific ability at 20th level:
Elemental Power (Su): Creatures affected by your spells only receive 1/2 their energy resistance. Creatures with energy immunity are instead treated as if they have resistance 20 against the energy.
The point here is that the fighter can usually deal more damage per round against single targets and small groups (3 or less, 4 or less with haste or a speed weapon), but an evoker can usually deal more damage per round against larger groups (and 5 hardly makes an army). You use the appropriate tool for the appropriate job, since no character is the "best" in all circumstances.
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So let's take Bloodied a step further. If Bloodied were to make a creature weaker in some way, perhaps by imposing -2 to attacks, saves, skill checks, and ability checks, suddenly damaging a creature but not killing it has an effect. And thus, area-of-effect damage can become meaningful.Like Mattastrophic, I like the idea of a Wounded condition that gives a penalty to AC, attacks, saves etc. It is one of the good ideas of 4E. I'd like it if PF would integrate such a concept. I've also implemented in my PF Beta playtesting sessions "healing surges" (adapted for PF hp balance) -- mainly because our party didn't have a cleric or a paladin. But they work quite well and players enjoy them. You can't "heal" yourself more than half your total hit points however. You still need rest or magical healing for the *big* injuries :-)
Pathfinder did add "healing surges" but they gave them to the Clerics in the form of Channel Positive Energy.
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AC isn't really a problem for a fighter. It's pretty trivial to get +35-40 on your first attack, which will easily hit any CR20 in the book. Heck, Great Wyrm golds, the highest CR in the Monster Manual, only have 42 AC (though that's pre-spell, of course). Similarly, DR isn't really a problem, either. Not only are there magic weapon properties that essentially read "You ignore DR", it's generally pretty easy to be prepared for any DR you're likely to encounter, especially for archers. Archers can just keep a handful of blessed silver, cold iron, and adamantine arrows in their quivers and ignore 90% of all DRs aside from liches. Other fighters just keep lesser enchanted weapons around.
In 3.5 / PF there isn't a hierarchy of DRs, you need the right tool for the DR at hand. That means you need a Silver Weapon, a Cold Iron Weapon, and Adamantine Weapon. To have each enchanted to the hilt, I would say it isn't beyond the realm of possibility for a character to afford one +10 (+5 +5 levels of ability) weapon at level 20, he would be hard pressed to have 3 without sacrificing other gear. Never mind he would also need to have at least one weapon of each type (Bludgeoning/Piercing /Slashing) So to have complete coverage he would need 9 weapons, and that of course doesn't deal with DR/Holy, DR/Epic or that fearsome DR/-. So DR is an issue to warriors.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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In 3.5 / PF there isn't a hierarchy of DRs, you need the right tool for the DR at hand. That means you need a Silver Weapon, a Cold Iron Weapon, and Adamantine Weapon. To have each enchanted to the hilt, I would say it isn't beyond the realm of possibility for a character to afford one +10 (+5 +5 levels of ability) weapon at level 20, he would be hard pressed to have 3 without sacrificing other gear. Never mind he would also need to have at least one weapon of each type (Bludgeoning/Piercing /Slashing) So to have complete coverage he would need 9 weapons, and that of course doesn't deal with DR/Holy, DR/Epic or that fearsome DR/-. So DR is an issue to warriors.
AC isn't really a problem for a fighter. It's pretty trivial to get +35-40 on your first attack, which will easily hit any CR20 in the book. Heck, Great Wyrm golds, the highest CR in the Monster Manual, only have 42 AC (though that's pre-spell, of course). Similarly, DR isn't really a problem, either. Not only are there magic weapon properties that essentially read "You ignore DR", it's generally pretty easy to be prepared for any DR you're likely to encounter, especially for archers. Archers can just keep a handful of blessed silver, cold iron, and adamantine arrows in their quivers and ignore 90% of all DRs aside from liches. Other fighters just keep lesser enchanted weapons around.
Not true in pathfinder Beta. Check out the glossary on damage reduction, p. 394 - +3, +4, and +5 weapons bypass cold iron/silver, adamantine, and alignment DR.
Also, I wasn't ignoring the balors' defenses; the PFBeta evoker gains a specific ability at 20th level:
I'm well aware of that particular ability. You ignored the Balors' spell-like abilities, one of which is unholy aura which adds +4 to all saves.
The point is that the evoker has to use every single resource he's got to deal with those large groups you say he's best at, and he's very slow at it - especially if the large groups don't cooperate and group up in 20' radius circles.
Also, I wasn't ignoring the balors' defenses; the PFBeta evoker gains a specific ability at 20th level:I'm well aware of that particular ability. You ignored the Balors' spell-like abilities, one of which is unholy aura which adds +4 to all saves.
And the same unholy aura grants a +4 to AC, which reduces the fighter's average damage, also.
Recalculating with unholy aura in effect and more fully optimizing the characters:
PFBeta Fighter 20 with Weapon Training (+4 Heavy Blades), Weapon Mastery (auto-confirm critical hits, increase critical multiplier)*, Backswing, Greater Weapon Focus*, Greater Weapon Specialization*, Overhand Chop, Power Attack, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus*, Weapon Specialization*, and a +5 keen speed thundering falchion. Attack bonus when using Power Attack is +20 (base) +4 (training) +2 (focus) +5 (enhancement) = +31 for attacks of +31/+31/+26/+21 with Vital Strike and a speed weapon vs. AC 39 (MM balor with unholy aura). Hit chance is 60% (half will be criticals)/60% (half will be criticals)/35% (6-in-7 will be criticals)/10% (automatic critical). Weapon damage will be 5 (falchion) +4 (training) +4 (specialization) +19 (Str) +5 (enhancement) = 37; Backswing adds +39 instead of +19 for Str on the first attack of a full attack (57), Power Attack adds +26 to all attacks (63 or 83), and Vital Strike adds +5 to all attacks (not multiplied on a critical), keen improves the threat range to 15-20, thundering adds +9 sonic damage (+2d8 because of Weapon Mastery; I'm ignoring the DC 14 Fort save vs. deafness) on a critical.
*- all with falchion
1st attack (((83 x 3) + 5 + 9) x 0.3) + ((83 + 5) x 0.3) = ((249 + 14) + 88) x 0.3 = 351 x 0.3 = 105.3
2nd attack (((63 x 3) +5 + 9) x 0.3) + ((63 + 5) x 0.3) = ((189 + 14) + 68) x 0.3 = 271 x 0.3 = 81.3
3rd attack (((63 x 3) + 5 + 9) x 0.3) + ((63 + 5) x 0.05) = (203 x 0.3) + (68 x 0.05) = 60.9 + 3.4 = 64.3
4th attack ((63 x 3) + 5 + 9) x 0.1 = 203 x 0.1 = 20.3
Total average damage = 105.3 + 81.3 + 64.3 + 20.3 = 271.2
Note that attacking without Vital Strike results in 102.3 + 78.3 + 62.55 + 19.8 + 9.9 = 272.85 (only 1.65 more) and Improved Vital Strike results in 108.3 + 84.3 + 66.05 = 258.65, but a fighter using a weapon with a smaller critical threat range and different abilities may have different results.
PFBeta wizard (evoker) 20 with Specialist Bonus (+5 damage with Evocation spells), Elemental Power, Empower Spell, Greater Spell Focus (Evocation), Greater Spell Penetration, Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Penetration, greater metamagic rod of empower, greater metamagic rod of quicken, and robe of the archmagi. Save DC for Evocation spells is (10 + spell level + 2 focus + 13 Int) vs. Fort +26/Ref +23/Will +23 (MM balor with unholy aura) and CL for penetrating SR is 20 (base CL) + 4 (penetration) + 2 (enhancement) = 26 vs. SR 28 (the SR 25 from unholy aura overlaps). In one round, the evoker can cast an Empowered delayed blast fireball (Quickened by a metamagic rod) and a delayed blast fireball (Empowered by a metamagic rod). Casting two Empowered delayed blast fireballs per round (using two spell slots, one 7th and one 9th level with the metamagic rods), each does 105 (30d6) + 5 (specialist) = 110 damage and has a Ref save DC of 10+ 7 + 2 + 13 = 32; a balor fails a save 40% of the time and resists a spell 5% of the time.
(((110 - 20) x 0.4) + ((55 - 20) x 0.6)) x 0.95 = ((90 x 0.4) + (35 x 0.6)) x 0.95 = (36 + 21) x 0.95 = 57 x 0.95 = 54.15 per spell to each target
Total average damage = 108.3 to each target
If there are one or two balors, the fighter does more damage (on a full attack); if there are three or more balors, the evoker does more damage. Yes, the evoker will burn through spell slots quickly, but that's a different issue. Also, if the foes are more than 40 ft apart, then the fighter has problems making full attacks just as the evoker has problems catching multiple targets in a burst.
Talk about unequal wealth distribution. The Fighter has 162k worth of stuff and the wizard has 318k. Again, the wizard uses dramatically more resources to do a worse job in just about any realistic situation that involves pure damage dealing.
Talk about unequal wealth distribution. The Fighter has 162k worth of stuff and the wizard has 318k. Again, the wizard uses dramatically more resources to do a worse job in just about any realistic situation that involves pure damage dealing.
Note that I was only listing relevant feats, abilities, items, etc. not already mentioned. Anyway, the breakdown is as follows:
Fighter: manual of gainful exercise +5 (137,500gp), belt of giant strength +6 (36,000gp), and +5 keen speed thundering falchion (200,375gp); total cost 373,875gp.
Evoker: five wish spells (125,000gp in diamonds), headband of vast intelligence +6 (36,000gp), greater metamagic rod of empower (73,000gp), greater metamagic rod of quicken (170,000gp), and robe of the archmagi (75,000gp); total cost 479,000gp.
So the evoker has about 100,000gp more equipment specified for the purpose of this discussion. The fighter would have at least one more weapon (probably two or three, including a bow or other ranged weapon), armor, etc. The wizard, apart from what's listed, doesn't need much. With Craft Rod, Craft Wondrous Item, and Quicken Spell, an evoker can even enchant their own items for half price (including a tome of clear thought +5, cost to make 68,750gp, instead of using wish spells) for a total cost of 245,750gp in play (the fighter's cost is 287,125gp if the evoker is nice enough to enchant the manual and belt, too).
Also not included is the cost of the wizard's spellbooks, which as discussed on various other threads rings up to 220k gp minimum (if he gets copies of all the core spells), higher if they can't find someone to copy from, or other wizard's spellbooks to steal.
If we are assuming that the fighter is equiped with +5 weapons,we could just as well asume that a wizard would have acces to...say a rod om greater maximise. then if he is casteing a 9th lvl spell like meteor swarm he would do a heck of a lot more dmg.
thats 32d6 with no save(192). not to mention the 40' burst.
said rod could also be combined with the empowered dealyed fireball for a 30d6(180) with save.
also there is spells like greater shout, doing sound dmg, dont remember balors beeing imune or resistant to that... also the balor is only one monster you couls use an examle with a monster with no fire resistance.
also consider that most spellcasters at lvl 20 will have the quicken spell feat. to frontload an extra say magic misile cone of cold or whatever.
i have, as a DM seen quit a lot of powerfull villans go down in 1 or 2 round to consentrated spellpower. long before the heavy(red. slow) palte wearing fighter even made it into close combat.
also the non damaging spells of a wizard is quit powerfull. the combination of fly and greater invisibility is devastatiting.
just saying that the wizard is most of the time a very important person in the grupe. cosider that he is not there to just deal dmg to the monsters but also to do a lot of other stuff. and without him the fighter will be a sitting duck with a speed of 20'
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This might have been covered already, but only Conjuration [Creation] spells bypass SR, unless this has changed in PF. Con. [Creation] are very rare spells as it goes, particularly for combat purposses. The reason they bypass antimagic, S.R., and the like is because once they are created, there is no magic in the created item, (normally).
A great 3.5 example is CometFall spell, one of the few combat [Creation] spells, that literally made a large bolder in the sky that fell on enemies. So long as the caster was not in an antimagic area, or the bolder created in an antimagic area, it was just a large, not at all magic bolder that fell by gravity.
Additionally, there are a lot of misconceptions as to what S.R. actually protects against. Not so much (normally) for fireball like spells. S.R. only protects you if the spell is directly effecting you. Like Darkness. It allows S.R., but that only applies if the caster is trying to target the darkness on you, not to see if the darkness (already cast) will affect your sight.
I do, however, completely agree that something needs to be done about damage D.C.'s or the umph! these spells should do. Maybe increase the lesser effects on a good save, while downgrading the best result a bit on a bad save.
A good solution for Evasion is to make it only work on a nat. 20.
This might have been covered already, but only Conjuration [Creation] spells bypass SR, unless this has changed in PF.
We're specifically talking about Evocations here, although the Conj[Creation] stuff isn't any better at doing damage, really, unless you're talking about golems.
Additionally, there are a lot of misconceptions as to what S.R. actually protects against. Not so much (normally) for fireball like spells. S.R. only protects you if the spell is directly effecting you. Like Darkness. It allows S.R., but that only applies if the caster is trying to target the darkness on you, not to see if the darkness (already cast) will affect your sight.
Completely incorrect, both for 3.5 and Pathfinder. Read page 397 of the beta:
"Area Spells: Spell resistance applies if the resistant creature is within the spell's area."
Though, re-reading what you said, I'm no longer quite certain exactly what you're trying to say. Since we're talking specifically about damage-dealing evocations in this thread, I'm not sure what your darkness example is supposed to show...
A good solution for Evasion is to make it only work on a nat. 20.
No, this would make Evasion utterly useless. The best solution to Evasion is to either limit the number of damage spells with Reflex saves for half, or to change Evasion so that it requires some kind of condition (movement out of the spell's area, cover, etc).
Also not included is the cost of the wizard's spellbooks, which as discussed on various other threads rings up to 220k gp minimum (if he gets copies of all the core spells), higher if they can't find someone to copy from, or other wizard's spellbooks to steal.
Who needs every single core spell?
Even if the DM is unkind and never allows the evoker to find an enemy's spellbook (which, when sold, will most likely more than repay the cost of copying spells from it), the two free spells of the wizard's choice that are gained each class level still add up to at least four in each spell level. With careful selection, the wizard can still be a powerful caster, if somewhat limited in versatility (limited wish and wish are even more "must have" spells in this case), even if they don't gain a single spell beyond their free ones.
Also not included is the cost of the wizard's spellbooks, which as discussed on various other threads rings up to 220k gp minimum (if he gets copies of all the core spells), higher if they can't find someone to copy from, or other wizard's spellbooks to steal.Who needs every single core spell?
Even if the DM is unkind and never allows the evoker to find an enemy's spellbook (which, when sold, will most likely more than repay the cost of copying spells from it), the two free spells of the wizard's choice that are gained each class level still add up to at least four in each spell level. With careful selection, the wizard can still be a powerful caster, if somewhat limited in versatility (limited wish and wish are even more "must have" spells in this case), even if they don't gain a single spell beyond their free ones.
A DM that does that is also likely not to let you find the 25,000 gp needed to cast wish, so that spell could actually be a bad choice too. If an evoker is so limited he has fewer spells known than a sorcerer... that's more than just a somewhat limited in versatility.
I was pointing out that while certain choices hadn't been made for the fighter, or parts of the fighters wealth hadn't been discussed, the same was true for the hypothetical wizard in the discussion.
All of which still comes back to the point that at 5th level fireball doing 5d6 damage (18ish damage provided they fail their save and have no form of resistance to fire) even in an area isn't going to do much of anything.
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We're specifically talking about Evocations here, although the Conj[Creation] stuff isn't any better at doing damage, really, unless you're talking about golems.
I was just refering to a previos statement that said all conjuration spells. Only Conjuration [Creation] spell ignor S.R. and antimagic.
Completely incorrect, both for 3.5 and Pathfinder. Read page 397 of the beta:
"Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature’s mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required. Spell resistant creatures can be harmed by a spell when they are not being directly affected."
The darkness spell was just an easy example of the top of my head, regardless of school or whatever. What I was saying is, in the case of that spell, a save and S.R. only apply if you cast the spell on an unwilling target. Cast it on a rock, and no one gets a save, and S.R. does not apply.
My point is that with Evocation spells, you can affect the enviroment to harm targets and ignor S.R.
Toss out a few oils, alchy Fires, a web spell, a grease spell, etc, then cast fireball and watch them burn. Toss a lighning bolt at a ceiling, things like that. Now admitedly, these things can be a little hard to pull off, and damamging spells themselves do need a boost, but they do not have to be so bad as it is sometimes made out.
I was pointing out that while certain choices hadn't been made for the fighter, or parts of the fighters wealth hadn't been discussed, the same was true for the hypothetical wizard in the discussion.
True, but the evoker was using one spell, just as the fighter was using one weapon. The point was to show that the evoker could cause damage comparable to the fighter (when facing multiple foes at least), which was the main complaint.
All of which still comes back to the point that at 5th level fireball doing 5d6 damage (18ish damage provided they fail their save and have no form of resistance to fire) even in an area isn't going to do much of anything.
Against the foes a 5th level party will be facing, it's a lot better than shooting arrows (at least 8-9 damage to all foes without resistance within 20 ft of the target point). A 5th level fighter can make, at most, one attack against all foes within a 10 ft reach (and only if taking the feats Combat Expertise, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Mobility, Spring Attack, and Whirlwind Attack); an enlarge person spell (from the party's wizard) can increase the fighter's reach (and weapon damage), but it's still automatic damage from the spell (even at save for half) vs. possible damage from the fighter (even with the size increase).
Now admitedly, these things can be a little hard to pull off, and damamging spells themselves do need a boost , but they do not have to be so bad as it is sometimes made out.
This is all I'm saying... damaging spells need a boost... most damaging spells are evocation... therefore evocation spells, in general, need a boost.
This is all I'm saying... damaging spells need a boost... most damaging spells are evocation... therefore evocation spells, in general, need a boost.Now admitedly, these things can be a little hard to pull off, and damamging spells themselves do need a boost , but they do not have to be so bad as it is sometimes made out.
I'd say, more accurately, that high level damaging spells against single targets may need a slight boost. An evoker 20 can use the greater metamagic rod of empower and quicken trick with two polar ray spells to do 30d6+5 + 20d6+5 and 1d4 + (1d4 x 1.5) Dex damage (two ranged touch attacks, no save); that's 185 points of cold damage and about 6 points of Dex damage, on average. If the evoker uses a greater metamagic rod of maximize instead of empower, that becomes 200 points of cold damage and about 8 points of Dex damage. Compared to a full attacking fighter who can do close to 300 points of damage, it's not as strong as it perhaps should be.
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A few good solutions I have heard
1.) Energy Types of damage spells automatically deal some sort of alternate status effect for a round or two. Negative energy causes a target to be fatigued for a d3 rounds or something, fire causes the targets to be Dazzled, things like this, regardless of the outcome of the spells save.
2.) Scailing D.C.'s based on level rather than 10 + Stat + Spell Level.
5 + Stat + 1/2 Caster level (maybe + Cha/Con), seems a good balance.
3.) This is just something I do in my games for 3.5, so may not be what you are looking for, but I allow Sudden Metamagic Feats to be taken multiple times. The Sudden Metamagic feats allow you to 1/day add a given Metamagic feat to a spell as a free action. So if you have Sudden Empower, 1/day, at no spell level cost and without prepairing it as such, Empower a Fireball. With me, if your take Sudden Empower a second time, you can do it twice a day.
4.) Develope a Crit method for spells, (all spells). It would be best based off of Caster Level rather than Base Attack, and not just deal x2 damage, but maybe increase slightly the dice pool of the spell. So for example a 10th level Fireball deals 10d6, but on a crit deals 14d6, or maybe makes it so you reroll all 1's and 2's for the damage.
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I agree. I hate the idea that of resting all the time to regain abilities. It makes the game less threatening, (which in my opinion = boring), and also makes magic like abilities just less fantastic or mysterious.
This is also a lot of the trouble that a lot of people have with the Fighter and the Rogue. Because damage dealing spellcasters can regain all their powers so easily, it maes the fighters less cool. Rogues on the other hand have an unlimited heavy damage attack that never needs recharged.
I agree that the 15 minute adventure day is a danger to game balance... however Jason B and the others have already stated that they are trying to counter that, and it is not supposed to be part of the "standard" game. I think there is little we can do about it here.
Also it's not "that easy" to regain spells... 8 hours of rest means that if a random encounter occurs while you are resting and the wizard participates then he doesn't get his spells back. Plus it is actually 9 hours becuase after the hour of rest you need an hour to prepare all the spells. If you only prep half your spells it's still an extra 30 minutes while 1/4 of your spells or less takes 15 minute minimum. However those are issues the wizard (or any spell chucker) must deal with and I like them being there (they should have to put up with this).
If the damaging spells did more then that combat would be a bit shorter meaning that less other resources are expended trying to overcome the challenge.
One thing I ask myself when looking at these spells is "What would the fighter in the group want me to do?"
Would he:
1. Want me to blast the enemy even though he could do the same damage in the round.
2. Cast haste on him so he can get to the enemy faster and do more damage that the blasting spell will do.
3. Cast slow on the enemies and try and reduce what they can do to him.
4. Anything else with a spell.
The usual ranking of response to that question would be 2 or 3 then 4 and then 1... which means the damage from limited use resources (spells) isn't enough.
I think part of the problem with damage spells is that they generally deal damage expressed in dice. While 10d6 sounds impressive each dice generally only equates into half of the dice size in damage (so a d4 = 2.5 damage d6 = 3.5 d8 = 4.5 et al). So 10d6 actually comes out to be 35 damage.
Not to start another WvF thread but the fighter could get cleave and great cleave... great cleave basically does what whirlwind attack does now and is easier to get to for a fighter.
I would hate to just tack a bonus on the spell damage, or just keep throwing on more dice, but as it stands the damage potential of these spells doesn't offer enough to make up for the ever climbing HP and resistances (in all their forms) to the spells.
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I don't know, in my experience, with the exception of Fire, it is generally a lot easier to avoid straight weapon damage than spell damage for monsters. Now, I haven't seen how PF is going to handle monsters yet, but in 3.5, it was pretty easy to negate a lot of stuff a fighter (or tank) can do, while I have seen a lot of magic effects take down a horde of monsters.
I don't know, in my experience, with the exception of Fire, it is generally a lot easier to avoid straight weapon damage than spell damage for monsters. Now, I haven't seen how PF is going to handle monsters yet, but in 3.5, it was pretty easy to negate a lot of stuff a fighter (or tank) can do, while I have seen a lot of magic effects take down a horde of monsters.
Were any of those magic effects direct damage... and how often?
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I don't know, in my experience, with the exception of Fire, it is generally a lot easier to avoid straight weapon damage than spell damage for monsters. Now, I haven't seen how PF is going to handle monsters yet, but in 3.5, it was pretty easy to negate a lot of stuff a fighter (or tank) can do, while I have seen a lot of magic effects take down a horde of monsters.Were any of those magic effects direct damage... and how often?
What I mean is that monsters usually have D.R. better than and more often than Energy Resistance, except Fire.
D.R. is much easier to bypass now with magic enhancement bypassing damage reduction (I hated it in 3.0 and I hate it now in pathfinder, "Oh D.R. Cold Iron, becuase Cold Iron is anti-thetical to magic ... well my +2 magic sword is so magic it bypasses that damage reduction!")
Also Most Outsiders are immune to at least 1 type of energy, as are all dragons, and some elementals, giants, et al and that's not counting if a single wizard is on the enemies side, or if they have one of several magical items that offer energy resistance.
And that's not counting the several magical beasts that have immunities.
Beyond all of this, damage reduction rarely passes 15 points, and the fighter types get unlimited swings (over time, not per round of course) and racking up melee (or to a lesser extend ranged) damage isn't so hard... even if you don't have the item nessecary to bypass the damage reduction topping it isn't too difficult... you don't have to worry about a defensive roll (save throw) against the damage reducing your base amount then the damage reduction on top of it.