There have been a number of threads on how various cantrips need to be revised due to the fact they can be cast an unlimited number of times per day. Rather than respond to them individually, or put a big list in an inappropriate thread, I'm making a new thread.
I'm listing every cantrip below, even if my only comment is 'no issues'. Spells that require major changes are marked in bold. Spells that require minor changes are in italics.
Here are the recurring issues, in short form:
Spells that were never designed to be cast repeatedly. A poster child for this is Daze, which would be the worst 1st level spell, yet, as a 0-level spell, is more powerful than most 1st level spells.
Spells that scale with level, originally as a way to improve their usefulness at higher levels, that can now be simply repeated.
Spells with level-related durations, as above.
Spells that are not assumed to be always available.
In general, the big problem with 0-level spells now is that they no longer behave as spells, really, as spells are meant to be one-shot effects. Instead, 0-level spells should be regarded as class features in the same vein as the first-level domain/school/bloodline powers, except weaker.
Also, I am aware of the 'infinite oregano' argument and common sense. So I don't worry about things like the wizard leaving Arcane Marks everywhere just because he can, and the ability to manufacture acid with Acid Splash is an annoyance at worst, but Create Water is a real issue.
Acid Splash - Power level is fine, but needs text specifying that the acid disappears or evaporates somehow, per the 'Instantaneous creation spells' thread.
Arcane Mark - Infinite 'kilroy was here' markings might be an annoying way to leave breadcrumbs, but I can't imagine it being any more gamebreaking than marking the walls with a chisel. No issues.
Bleed - A good replacement for Inflict Minor Wounds. No issues.
Create Water - This spell might not break the power level for PCs, but it has real worldbuilding issues. I suggest that the amount of water per casting become fixed, rather than scaling per level. Futher, I suggest it be reduced to one quart per casting. The old spell generated 2 gallons even at first level so that the whole party's waterskins could be filled from one orison. Now that the spell can be cast repeatedly, the cleric can be bothered to fill a waterskin at a time. Even with this change, a cleric can produce a great deal of water in a day: over a thousand gallons in eight hours of work. But at least it's slow enough that people might want to consider living near water, rather than working the village cleric to the bone to live in the desert. (Compare this to 28,800 gallons in eight hours for a 3rd level cleric before.)
Dancing Lights - I suggest this, and any other cantrip with a duration, be specified to only allow one to be active at a time, per caster. Otherwise, if casting continuously, a caster can have up to 40 lights at a time, which is clearly not the intent of the spell.
Daze - This spell has a hard HD-limit, which limits its utility after a few levels, but at level 1 it's possible to Daze-lock an opponent. This is almost a Hold Person spell with a concentration duration. That you can re-cast when the subject makes its save. I don't know a fix off the top of my head, but this spell needs help. A possible suggestion is to make it more like Flare, or Slow.
Detect Magic - Possibly an adventure-design issue, as magic becomes much more obvious, but no big issues. I would like some wording defining what happens when you scan an illusion with detect magic. Do you detect the illusion, or do you see what the illusion wants you to see (a non-magical wall, for instance)? Provided you fail the Disbelief save, of course.
Detect Poison - No problem.
Disrupt Undead - Better than the other damage cantrips, but still fair, since it has limited targets.
Flare - Flare isn't cumulative and is a pretty weak debuff. Against a single target, it doesn't change at all, and against a group, it's probably a fair use of the caster's time to try to debuff them all. No issues.
Ghost Sound - Both the effects and duration of Ghost Sound scale with level, but I'm not sure this causes a problem. I flag it because I'd like more people's comments on it. If changes are necessary, I suggest making the duration 'Concentration' (because that's what it basically is now for a first level caster), and chosing an intermediate volume.
Guidance - A much better effect now that it can be cast whenever anyone needs a bonus, but has no real problems.
Know Direction - Who needs a compass? No issues.
Light - I suggest this, and any other cantrip with a duration, be specified to only allow one to be active at a time, per caster. Otherwise no one if the party ever need carry a torch again, and any caster can light up a whole dungeon. Additionally, there is no reason for the duration to scale with level now that it can be re-cast so easily. I suggest a flat 10-minute time limit. That said, the world will not end if it isn't fixed.
Lullaby - No issues.
Mage Hand - Making wizards de-facto telekinetics is kinda cool. It might cause issues with puzzle design in low-level dungeons, but this is not game breaking.
Mending - This has the Cure Minor Wounds problem, only for objects. If the spell can affect the item in question, it will be restored to full condition in short order by repeated castings, so the spell might as well just fix it. Perhaps require a longer casting time for items that need more HP, rather than force repeatedly rolling 1d4.
Also, would anything break if Mending didn't allow spell resistance? It would allow Make Whole to save some text on repairing Golems.
Message - It's a walkie-talkie. The only change I'd make is making the duration not scale with level: After all, it can easily be recast when it expires, regardless of level.
Open/Close - This spell is a lot like Mage Hand. It might allow casters to do some very non-intuitive things, but doesn't seem to be a real issue. My only caution is that this potentially means that no one will ever open a door or chest while standing nearby, thus avoiding many traps. On the other hand, you'd be surprised what weighs more than 30 pounds. (Back when you had to expend this spell, it was a trade of resources to avoid said trap.)
Prestidigitation - The duration for this spell has already been fixed. No problems.
Purify Food and Drink - I suggest fixing the volume of food/water affected, since more can easily be purified with additional castings.
Ray of Frost - No issues.
Read Magic - No issues.
Resistance - Annoying players might want to waste 40% of a spellcaster's time to keep this always active, but that will fall under the 'infinite oregano' argument, and it becomes meaningless the instant someone gets a Cloak of Resistance anyway.
Stabilize - A good Cure Minor Wounds replacement.
Summon Instrument - Since this is a summoning spell, the worst a character can do is have a pile of instruments at their feet, that will shortly vanish. Annoying, yes. Game breaking, no. I do, however, suggest fixing the duration at 1 minute, for the same reason as given for other cantrips, above.
Touch of Fatigue - This seems fair.
Virtue - Like resistance, this is more trouble than it's worth to try to keep active, so it's not a real problem.
Unlimited cantrips/orisons is really the only thing I like about the PFRPG magic, and I have not had problems with this. Of course, my players are not going to use spells as Resistance again and again until all are bored. However, Resistance don't stack with a Cloak of resistance. I guess that the spell will have little utility after the first levels.
Daze is useful a short time because has a HD cap. Its effect is not dramatic, the fighter does more with his sword. And at low levels this help to compensate the few slots that the casters have. Anyway, if you do not have problems with the adventures of 15 minutes a day, nothing happens by removing the spell. Daze not unbalance nothing, but while spells as Light, Ghost Sound, Message, Mage's Hand, or Prestidigitation (and others) are great for roleplaying and they give the awesome feeling of magic characters, such spells (Daze, Resistance, Virtue...) provide little in this regard, and even repeated castings only change the spirit of D&D.
Message, Mage's Hand, or Prestidigitation (and others) are great for roleplaying and they give the awesome feeling of magic characters,
This is true. I'm very happy that a Wizard can go around with Prestidigitation all the time if they want.
For daze one idea might be to only allow it to be cast once per target and later castings by that caster don't effect that target. Or a target gets a bonus to the save based on how often they have been targeted by daze. Of course, those might require a bit too much stuff to track for a 0-level spell. Another idea might be to say that the target is immune to the caster's daze the next round, so a single caster could only keep an enemy dazed every other round at most.
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For daze one idea might be to only allow it to be cast once per target and later castings by that caster don't effect that target. Or a target gets a bonus to the save based on how often they have been targeted by daze. Of course, those might require a bit too much stuff to track for a 0-level spell. Another idea might be to say that the target is immune to the caster's daze the next round, so a single caster could only keep an enemy dazed every other round at most.
I like the idea of once per target per day - this would be a similar mechanic to many of the domain powers.
...at you can re-cast when the subject makes its save. I don't know a fix off the top of my head...
Why not use the common mechanic like fear effects, once you save you are unaffected by that DAZE spell for 24 hours.
The Creation spells like water bug me too cause I've got a priest using it as a water boarding effect right now. I think the limiting it and other spells is going to have to be the way to go. Like giving the MENDING spell a duration of some kind instead of permanent, ie the magic just isn't strong enough to last.
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Continuous 'Detect Magic' has already proved to be something of an annoyance at my playtest campaign, because now the PCs using it scan every room and NPC -- add the paladin's 'Detect Evil' on top of that, and there's no evil NPC safe anymore (almost ruined the plot in the last session, but I ruled that 'Undetectable Alignment' cast on a person also "muddles up" the aura of his items). Now, I can always throw in some moral issues in my campaigns, if the PCs go on a "Holy Looting Crusade" (if both "scans" are positive) but I could see more...err, "proactive" players easily wreaking havoc with these two abilities in a campaign run by a novice DM.
I'd like to see 'Detect Magic' and 'Detect Evil' both requiring a Spellcraft check every round to focus/maintain -- I think even the most energetic and persistent (i.e. problematic) players would eventually yield, if you're constantly calling for "concentration checks".
Continuous 'Detect Magic' has already proved to be something of an annoyance at my playtest campaign, because now the PCs using it scan every room and NPC -- add the paladin's 'Detect Evil' on top of that, and there's no evil NPC safe anymore (almost ruined the plot in the last session, but I ruled that 'Undetectable Alignment' cast on a person also "muddles up" the aura of his items). Now, I can always throw in some moral issues in my campaigns, if the PCs go on a "Holy Looting Crusade" (if both "scans" are positive) but I could see more...err, "proactive" players easily wreaking havoc with these two abilities in a campaign run by a novice DM.
I think we have very different game styles, as my players know that just because someone is evil, it is not a justification to murder them, let alone murder them legally.
I would have a paladin need an atonement for doing something like that, with no powers until they had a sincere change of heart.
In my view, evil does not necessarily mean that they are the bad guys, nor does having a good alignment mean that they are automatically good guys. I have run a game where the main "villain" was a lawful good noble, who believed that they should have rightfully been crowned the king, and the lawful evil chamberlain, while cruel (and who would repay any slight tenfold) to be actually on the side of the crowned king but who was the PCs main suspect.
I'd like to see 'Detect Magic' and 'Detect Evil' both requiring a Spellcraft check every round to focus/maintain -- I think even the most energetic and persistent (i.e. problematic) players would eventually yield, if you're constantly calling for "concentration checks".
I have told my players, due to the change in how detect magic works, that there was going to be a slight reality shimmer, a change in the way a lot of people "hide" magical items. That lead lined chests were now common, that hidden recesses often had enough stone to block detect magic, magic aura is often used (often on trapped items), etc...
It still does make it easier for players to find magical gear, it is by no means guaranteed.
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I think we have very different game styles, as my players know that just because someone is evil, it is not a justification to murder them, let alone murder them legally.
I would have a paladin need an atonement for doing something like that, with no powers until they had a sincere change of heart.
In my view, evil does not necessarily mean that they are the bad guys, nor does having a good alignment mean that they are automatically good guys. I have run a game where the main "villain" was a lawful good noble, who believed that they should have rightfully been crowned the king, and the lawful evil chamberlain, while cruel (and who would repay any slight tenfold) to be actually on the side of the crowned king but who was the PCs main suspect.
Oh no, they're not running over every NPC that scans "positive", but it kind of prevents any sort of "intrigue" when they "scan" every NPC for magic (spells and items) and whether he/she is Evil or not. I've already stated that Evil beings appear to be Evil *only* when they're *actively* thinking of evil deeds (too many ruined plot hooks and "red herrings" because they could see any active spells/illusions and that someone is Evil-aligned). However, if you run a campaign strictly according to the Beta rules to the sort of players I described above, you could be in trouble.
Otherwise I don't have a problem with 0-level spells in Beta.
There is a lot of fiction that talks about mages being able to sense each other when they have active magic working, I kind of like the flavor of a wizard being able to detect who has a ton of magic working.
Don't forget casting a spell is obivous too. Some people start to look at a mage oddly when he chants out a spell then stares at them for 1/3 of a minute...
In some cultures it could be considered down right rude.
I remember back in AD&D there was a section about how it was considered rude to the point of provoking to sit around actively scanning people for alignment/magic/lies/et al. Might be something to point out again.
The problem is that spellcasting doesn't really cost anything except the opportunity to have cast something else. Take away that limit and you have a proverbial perpetual motion machine. A spellpoint system takes care of that, although balancing it can be a pain.
An evil creature with less that 5 HD doesn't even register as evil unless it is a cleric, outsider, or undead. Beyond that Undetectable alignment is a level 2 cleric spell, and I know that there are items that do similar things.
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Don't forget casting a spell is obivous too. Some people start to look at a mage oddly when he chants out a spell then stares at them for 1/3 of a minute...
In some cultures it could be considered down right rude.
I remember back in AD&D there was a section about how it was considered rude to the point of provoking to sit around actively scanning people for alignment/magic/lies/et al. Might be something to point out again.
Yeah, I've let them get away with too much so far, and I probably need to come down on them about this -- in-game, of course, in the form of angry and provocated and perhaps even aggressive NPCs. :)
Yeah, I've let them get away with too much so far, and I probably need to come down on them about this -- in-game, of course, in the form of angry and provocated and perhaps even aggressive NPCs. :)
You may also want to look at having your NPCs use Magic Aura to make magic items look mundane, and to make mundane items look magical. You can have a lot of fun with that and perhaps your PCs will rely less on constantly using detect magic and evil.
There is a lot of fiction that talks about mages being able to sense each other when they have active magic working, I kind of like the flavor of a wizard being able to detect who has a ton of magic working.
Indeed. I thought infinite detect magic was silly, until I thought of it as a class feature rather than a spell. A wizard or sorceror being able to sense magic makes perfect sense. Other spellcasters are a little more odd, but it still works.
For Detect Evil I have always used the house rule that you can only detect evil from beings that have the evil descriptor for instance a demon (evil chaotic outsider).
For Detect Evil I have always used the house rule that you can only detect evil from beings that have the evil descriptor for instance a demon (evil chaotic outsider).
Well the only (real) difference between this and how it is in beta is that creatures with more than 5 HD have faint~strong auras based on alignment (unless they have an aura as a class feature).
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For Detect Evil I have always used the house rule that you can only detect evil from beings that have the evil descriptor for instance a demon (evil chaotic outsider).Well the only (real) difference between this and how it is in beta is that creatures with more than 5 HD have faint~strong auras based on alignment (unless they have an aura as a class feature).
The problem is that most "meaningful" NPCs they're interacting with have more than 5 levels -- including a number of shopkeepers and craftsmen, some of which actually *are* spies, villains or minions in disguise. Of course, I have the option to use 4th level NPCs for any "red herrings" or plot hooks and ambushes, but I still feel that "constant" Detect Evil/Magic may prove to be problem, unless you choose to "houserule" it so that only if you persistently perform or think of evil deeds you scan as "positive". And, angered NPCs may be a solution to PCs constantly re-casting DM...
unless you choose to "houserule" it so that only if you persistently perform or think of evil deeds you scan as "positive".
How are you Evil if you DON'T persistently think of and/or do evil deeds?
Besides, lots of spies and mercenaries are Neutral, even if they work for someone who is Evil.
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unless you choose to "houserule" it so that only if you persistently perform or think of evil deeds you scan as "positive".How are you Evil if you DON'T persistently think of and/or do evil deeds?
Besides, lots of spies and mercenaries are Neutral, even if they work for someone who is Evil.
Well, you could be thinking of your old grandma, or your happy childhood before your fell into Evil's clutches. ;)
Anyway, what I meant by "active" evil thoughts is more like "I'm going to slit that guy's throat after he's fallen asleep" or "Tomorrow I'll return to this street and kidnap a couple of street urchins to sacrifice to Great Evil God!" etc. If an Evil NPC is having a conversation (about non-Evil matters) at an inn, he shouldn't register automatically as Evil.
I've used a lot of Neutral NPCs, but the organizations in question use a lot of illusion spells, and most of their spies and "field agents" are, indeed, LE or CE. Any spell concealing their form or items or alignment, would also register as an illusion, and mark them as "dubious individuals" in the eyes of the PCs.
Another thought: if a character has multiple spells on himself, shouldn't the aura read as "varied", as magic item auras seem to do? Therefore, it wouldn't be possible to identify all those spells they're using?
Hm... I got a problem with "thought crimes" causing detect evil to go off. Namely a paladin could have these thoughts... and never act on them. Thinking shouldn't be evil.
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Hm... I got a problem with "thought crimes" causing detect evil to go off. Namely a paladin could have these thoughts... and never act on them. Thinking shouldn't be evil.
No, but in the sense I mean it, these beings will eventually *act* to perform the deeds, i.e. they're not just thinking about them. They know that if it's up to them, they'll do it.
There's a difference between a "regular" person, when angry, thinking that "I'm going to kill him!" and a truly Evil, conniving and murderous person thinking the same. In the latter case, the person probably actually *means* it in a literal sense.
Hm... I got a problem with "thought crimes" causing detect evil to go off. Namely a paladin could have these thoughts... and never act on them. Thinking shouldn't be evil.
You're right: A good person is perfectly capable of having Evil thoughts, and if occasionally think of an Evil deed made a person Evil, everyone would be Evil. But a Good and Evil person would react differently to those thoughts.
When a Paladin thinks of Evil acts, the thought process should go 'This would be a lot easier if I just killed those guys. But that would be wrong and succumbing to temptation.' or possibly 'Hate leads to anger, and anger leads to the dark side.'
An Evil person in the same situation might think 'This would be a lot easier if I just killed those guys. But then I'd have to deal with disposing of the bodies.'
Exactly, however with the "active thoughts" setting off detect evil both of them would set it off.
Anyway, what I meant by "active" evil thoughts is more like "I'm going to slit that guy's throat after he's fallen asleep" or "Tomorrow I'll return to this street and kidnap a couple of street urchins to sacrifice to Great Evil God!" etc. If an Evil NPC is having a conversation (about non-Evil matters) at an inn, he shouldn't register automatically as Evil.
Ah. By 'persistently', you meant 'currently'. I'm not sure that's a good idea. I basically means Detect <Alignment> becomes a worse form of Detect Thoughts. Dr. Evil should detect as Evil, even if all he's currently thinking about is playing with Mr. Bigglesworth.
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Anyway, what I meant by "active" evil thoughts is more like "I'm going to slit that guy's throat after he's fallen asleep" or "Tomorrow I'll return to this street and kidnap a couple of street urchins to sacrifice to Great Evil God!" etc. If an Evil NPC is having a conversation (about non-Evil matters) at an inn, he shouldn't register automatically as Evil.Ah. By 'persistently', you meant 'currently'. I'm not sure that's a good idea. I basically means Detect <Alignment> becomes a worse form of Detect Thoughts. Dr. Evil should detect as Evil, even if all he's currently thinking about is playing with Mr. Bigglesworth.
Now, as it stands, Detect Evil can be a plot-ruiner, unless you come down on the players really hard via angered or fearful NPCs, *or* all "key" NPCs who interact them out of combat encounters have spells or items to mask their alignment. Naturally, you could use more Neutral-aligned minions, or increase the number of Evil-aligned "non-combatants" in your campaign, and I might just do that.
At the moment the PCs *always* scan an NPC I describe in more detail -- both for Evil and magic. They don't necessarily *do* anything to said NPC, but a couple of intrigue-laden adventures would have been completely ruined if I had run them "by the rules".
I think we are straying from the topic at hand.
I just wanted to chime in and say that I like your change to Create Water and the duration spells like light and dancing lights.
The rest, personally, I think are fine.. but that's probably more to do with how my games run and how my players act.
Why is it so bad that a PC might figure out someone is evil sometimes? Just becuase they are evil doesn't mean they are in on a plot or that they are actively being evil at the moment. Remember just being evil isn't enough to justify an immediate attack by someone else.
The only way knowing someone is evil would break a plot in my mind is if someone is meta-gaming.
Why is it so bad that a PC might figure out someone is evil sometimes? Just becuase they are evil doesn't mean they are in on a plot or that they are actively being evil at the moment. Remember just being evil isn't enough to justify an immediate attack by someone else.
The only way knowing someone is evil would break a plot in my mind is if someone is meta-gaming.
Its funny too because the assumption seems to be that evil=must be destroyed. I'm sure quite a few good faiths, if they found that someone was evil, but wasn't actively, say, turning others to evil or about to harm an innocent or what have you, probably would target that person for conversion, not destruction.
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Why is it so bad that a PC might figure out someone is evil sometimes? Just becuase they are evil doesn't mean they are in on a plot or that they are actively being evil at the moment. Remember just being evil isn't enough to justify an immediate attack by someone else.
The only way knowing someone is evil would break a plot in my mind is if someone is meta-gaming.
Let's assume that you have two Evil NPCs who you intend to use as "plot devices" in your campaign -- one, who is a merchant, to gain the trust of the PCs (he is a spy, but might try to assassinate them later on, if they "meddle" into certain people's business). He generally talks with the PCs about their adventures, and this is how the major villains in the campaign might get their information about the PCs (if you ever need an explanation for something, even a detail you've forgotten to add, this guy might be the source). This guy *HAS* to be Neutral, because otherwise he would be caught either for hiding/masking something (i.e. using spells or items with Illusion auras) the minute the PCs walk into his shop (at least in my campaign).
Let's say the other one is a minor villain, who uses Disguise/Alter Self extensively to appear in different guises -- he is more dangerous than the "spy" NPC, and will eventually lead the PCs into an ambush with his minions. There's a problem, though, because the minute he shows up the first time, his Evil nature will be revealed. He won't be able to lure into an ambush, and if he uses any magic (spells or items), he appears to be more than suspicious to the PCs -- just like the "spy" above.
Let's add in a third NPC, who is... alright, this is a campaign-spoiler if my players happen to read this thread (so anyone who plays in a campaign set in Thunderstone, Cormyr, should avert their eyes ;)
Note that they are not doing it to "reveal, kill & loot" bad guys -- they do it to know who they can *trust*. And that's a real bane to a GM in an intrigue-laden campaign which features multiple evil factions and NPCs. I can't use evil NPCs to lure into a false trail or ambush or even to hire them -- they would not believe a word such a being said as soon as either the cleric or the paladin said that he's evil or concealing something behind Illusions.
It's also pretty much what "veteran" players do -- they're constantly "meta-gaming" and analyzing the current session's events and how they fit into the "puzzle" (i.e. the campaign meta-plot). That's how it is, and there's very little I can do about it, unless I'm setting some sort of "limits" to their "scanning" abilities/spells.
If someone runs a game in which Evil is Evil and Good is Good, and the former sort of people only exist in the last room of the dungeon, waiting for the PCs... well, that's all and good. They probably won't care about how much the PCs are using these sort of abilities. But I doubt that anyone here runs such a black-and-white type of campaign, and therefore it could prove to be problematic.
Note that the paladin's ability to detect evil was perceived as a problem years and years ago -- it wasn't any easier to write "murder mysteries" for AD&D, either. I remember authors discussing this issue, and noting that Paladins would ruin any intrigue/mystery type of adventure or campaign, if it involved evil NPCs.
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Its funny too because the assumption seems to be that evil=must be destroyed. I'm sure quite a few good faiths, if they found that someone was evil, but wasn't actively, say, turning others to evil or about to harm an innocent or what have you, probably would target that person for conversion, not destruction.Why is it so bad that a PC might figure out someone is evil sometimes? Just becuase they are evil doesn't mean they are in on a plot or that they are actively being evil at the moment. Remember just being evil isn't enough to justify an immediate attack by someone else.
The only way knowing someone is evil would break a plot in my mind is if someone is meta-gaming.
Isn't that the "baseline assumption" in adventures these days? ;) My players wouldn't try to destroy a "harmless" evil NPC, but they *would* keep an eye on such a person, and definitely not trust him/her. Such as they'd do if they detected a strong aura (spell or item) on a relatively "normal-looking" person.
Where has all the innocence and altruistic trust gone, I wonder? ;)
Even Chaotic Evil creatures can be trusted sometimes. Especially when actions are involved. But yeah, this becomes a subject for another thread.
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Anyway, what I meant by "active" evil thoughts is more like "I'm going to slit that guy's throat after he's fallen asleep" or "Tomorrow I'll return to this street and kidnap a couple of street urchins to sacrifice to Great Evil God!" etc. If an Evil NPC is having a conversation (about non-Evil matters) at an inn, he shouldn't register automatically as Evil.Ah. By 'persistently', you meant 'currently'. I'm not sure that's a good idea. I basically means Detect <Alignment> becomes a worse form of Detect Thoughts. Dr. Evil should detect as Evil, even if all he's currently thinking about is playing with Mr. Bigglesworth.Now, as it stands, Detect Evil can be a plot-ruiner, unless you come down on the players really hard via angered or fearful NPCs, *or* all "key" NPCs who interact them out of combat encounters have spells or items to mask their alignment. Naturally, you could use more Neutral-aligned minions, or increase the number of Evil-aligned "non-combatants" in your campaign, and I might just do that.
At the moment the PCs *always* scan an NPC I describe in more detail -- both for Evil and magic. They don't necessarily *do* anything to said NPC, but a couple of intrigue-laden adventures would have been completely ruined if I had run them "by the rules".
I think that every time the PCs use any detect spells in a public setting or openly it would be normal for the NPCs in the area (including the ones not being detected or not evil) to come down hard. It's similar to if a guy starts intently staring at a woman checking her out, for 18 seconds. Sure she might be attractive, and he was simply using his detect hottie spell which he CAN use at will, but she and everyone around will likely yell at the guy, call the cops to do something about the creep, or haul off and punch him.
In a fantasy world like D&D, when you don't know what kind of magic might be in process, the reaction would be even stronger. "He says he was only detecting evil, but how do I know he wasn't using a charm spell or x-ray vision?!"
If the PCs want to constantly piss off EVERY npc they encounter, let them, but they should have to deal with the repercussions of breaking the law, and no one wanting to interact with them. They might think again when they can't buy supplies, make useful contacts that might hire them for an adventure, find cohorts, etc.
I should alter my comments on Summon Instrument: Summoned OBJECTS don't disappear unless specified, so it needs to be clarified that the instrument vanishes at the end of the duration.
I think, if anything, the rule with cantrips is still too limiting.
I love the idea of spellcasters using magic to handle mundane chores. Washing the dishes, darning their socks, blowing fancy smoke rings that do impossible dances in the air, or whatever else.
Since I first heard of Cantrips, I have had a house rule that lets all spellcasters know all cantrips and they are always all prepared (none of this *prepare the 4 cantrips you want and that's all you get* stuff).
However, I didn't quite give them unlimited at will access, but I did give them a whole lot more uses each day than the number of first level spells they received. The latest 3.5 version of this houserule allowed 3 cantrips per day per caster level, plus INT or WIS modifier (no, not the spells per day modifier which doesn't include 0-level spells, but the actual modifier, so an 18 INT gives mages 4 extra cantrips).
I'm not suggesting this as a rule for Pathfinder. I like at-will just fine.
But I've never had any problem with spellcasters being overpowered because they can Daze-lock or Cure 30 HP of Minor Wounds, or create umpteen gallons of water, or leave arcane graffiti wherever they go.
I say, More Power To Em!
Oh no, they're not running over every NPC that scans "positive", but it kind of prevents any sort of "intrigue" when they "scan" every NPC for magic (spells and items) and whether he/she is Evil or not. I've already stated that Evil beings appear to be Evil *only* when they're *actively* thinking of evil deeds (too many ruined plot hooks and "red herrings" because they could see any active spells/illusions and that someone is Evil-aligned). However, if you run a campaign strictly according to the Beta rules to the sort of players I described above, you could be in trouble.Otherwise I don't have a problem with 0-level spells in Beta.
You do realize that casting detect magic and detect evil (even though detect evil in this situation is a spell-like rather than a spell) are both automatically recognized as spellcasting unless your characters have feats that allow them to hide the casting? Casting a spell and staring at every important NPC is not going to make people happy, especially since important NPCs are likely to have bodyguards that are trained to react to spellcasting in their presence, whether those NPCs are evil or not. It's not like Superman's x-ray vision where you can't tell he's doing it. You also have to concentrate on the same target for 3 rounds straight to confirm that it's actually radiating the magical/evil aura, which means you can't double-move during that time and you have to stay within 60' of it as well.
I find that "detect bad guy" is a lot less of a problem when people actually follow ALL of the rules.
I'd like to see 'Detect Magic' and 'Detect Evil' both requiring a Spellcraft check every round to focus/maintain -- I think even the most energetic and persistent (i.e. problematic) players would eventually yield, if you're constantly calling for "concentration checks".I have told my players, due to the change in how detect magic works, that there was going to be a slight reality shimmer, a change in the way a lot of people "hide" magical items. That lead lined chests were now common, that hidden recesses often had enough stone to block detect magic, magic aura is often used (often on trapped items), etc...
It still does make it easier for players to find magical gear, it is by no means guaranteed.
i've had to do something similar to prevent total transparency
copied this from another thread to get all cantrip issues in one place
specific issues
detect poison - or how to avoid dangerous traps and detect nasty monsters.... druid now habitually scans for poison in any room, any dodgy path, even an unidentified monster. although not game breaking it does make traps especially much easier to find, especially combined with
detect magic - possibly most abused spell. walk into room and automatically detect magic. finds treasure, many traps, lots of illusions etc. combined with detect poison it will find most nasty surprises. although i'm aware you can block with magic aura, or lead it will be a little strange if every dungeon radiates magic, or is set in ye olde abandoned lead mine....
my suggestion is to restrict the range to short / touch for all 0-level detects (or 1' say) this would allow for finding stuff, but remove the scan first mentality thats developing in the party as you'd have to put yourself in harms way to detect effectively. so clearing the room and then searching would be as likely to set off traps as to find them, and also put secret compartments beyond the range of detections.
(I've tried this in game for a session and it did mean that the players waited until they were stuck and then used it in conjunction with thorough (take 20) searches rather than the previous "scan it - nick it" approach)
btw - I think the roleplaying restrictions on not casting spells in public are fine - but dont solve the dungeon spoiling elements of the spell
I still don't understand why making 0 level spell behaving like spell like abilities was necessary.
And fix duration is certainly not a good measure since they can be cast at will.
Well... Really not for my campaigns.
I still don't understand why making 0 level spell behaving like spell like abilities was necessary.
And fix duration is certainly not a good measure since they can be cast at will.
Well... Really not for my campaigns.
It was necessary so that low-level spellcasters were not a handful of actions away from not being magical at all.
And I'm not sure what you're saying about duration.
It was necessary so that low-level spellcasters were not a handful of actions away from not being magical at all.
And I'm not sure what you're saying about duration.
So why should they have weapon proficiencies ?
So why should they have weapon proficiencies ?
There are times when a crossbow is better than acid splash. A wizard is still a person.
Well to sidestep the issue a bit, one idea I have been toying with is instead of unlimited cantrips I use the ability score bonus as a multiplier for 0 level spells. So assuming a 1st level Sorcerer, with a CHA of 16 you have 15 cantrips per day, should be plenty to get through the day.
quick thought - maybe cap cantrip use to a max total time equal to caster level in hours per day
Light - I suggest this, and any other cantrip with a duration, be specified to only allow one to be active at a time, per caster. Otherwise no one if the party ever need carry a torch again, and any caster can light up a whole dungeon. Additionally, there is no reason for the duration to scale with level now that it can be re-cast so easily. I suggest a flat 10-minute time limit. That said, the world will not end if it isn't fixed.
When looking at this, it has a HUGE problem that has been discussed elsewhere.
The ability to create light at will is a HUGE nerf for creatures that rely on darkness like Drow or Tieflings.
Since an at will can easily counter a 2nd Level spell. :(
Light - I suggest this, and any other cantrip with a duration, be specified to only allow one to be active at a time, per caster. Otherwise no one if the party ever need carry a torch again, and any caster can light up a whole dungeon. Additionally, there is no reason for the duration to scale with level now that it can be re-cast so easily. I suggest a flat 10-minute time limit. That said, the world will not end if it isn't fixed.When looking at this, it has a HUGE problem that has been discussed elsewhere.
The ability to create light at will is a HUGE nerf for creatures that rely on darkness like Drow or Tieflings.
Since an at will can easily counter a 2nd Level spell. :(
That's an issue with darkness, not light.
That's an issue with darkness, not light.Light - I suggest this, and any other cantrip with a duration, be specified to only allow one to be active at a time, per caster. Otherwise no one if the party ever need carry a torch again, and any caster can light up a whole dungeon. Additionally, there is no reason for the duration to scale with level now that it can be re-cast so easily. I suggest a flat 10-minute time limit. That said, the world will not end if it isn't fixed.When looking at this, it has a HUGE problem that has been discussed elsewhere.
The ability to create light at will is a HUGE nerf for creatures that rely on darkness like Drow or Tieflings.
Since an at will can easily counter a 2nd Level spell. :(
Disagree. It is an issue with both.
(But, it only became such a big problem when the light cantrip became "at will.")
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That's an issue with darkness, not light.Light - I suggest this, and any other cantrip with a duration, be specified to only allow one to be active at a time, per caster. Otherwise no one if the party ever need carry a torch again, and any caster can light up a whole dungeon. Additionally, there is no reason for the duration to scale with level now that it can be re-cast so easily. I suggest a flat 10-minute time limit. That said, the world will not end if it isn't fixed.When looking at this, it has a HUGE problem that has been discussed elsewhere.
The ability to create light at will is a HUGE nerf for creatures that rely on darkness like Drow or Tieflings.
Since an at will can easily counter a 2nd Level spell. :(
Disagree. It is an issue with both.
(But, it only became such a big problem when the light cantrip became "at will.")
Perhaps a Cantrip Counter is in order. A cantrip level cantrip dispeler? That could solve many of the issues here, but I could also see it causing massive disruptions to game flow. Huh...