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...they don't appear on Paizo Christmas cards. That's the only difference I note between the pics. Which then forces us to question about generic portrayal of women in Paizo art......being a powerful sorceress has not "liberated" Seoni from being defined by male perception so it must be ok then, one IS supposed to be defined by male perception.Question: How are Eva Widerman's illustrations of Shelyn, Calistria, the Thrall of Malcanthet or her Pirate Chick different from Seoni? Especially with regards to your statement of the latter being defined by male perception?
Although... I'd say the three examples there are wholly appropriate:
Shelyn is the goddess of beauty, and I certainly found her to be one of the most attractive female illustrations Paizo has (though I'm speaking as a straight woman).Callistria is the goddess of lust, a dominatrix angle is pretty fair.
The Thrall of Malcanthet is a PrC for those who serve the queen of the Succubi, so again, it's fair.
The Pirate Chick isn't a Paizo illustration.
For what it's worth I'd also say that all four have fairly realistic body shapes (Callistria and the ToM are sensibly sized up top, Shelyn actually has the shoulders and frame to just about balance out her bust, I think the pirate chick has a slight element of self-portrait to her).
I was at Gen Con UK with Dragnmoon and Callum as well, so yes, another voice to the fact that Eva Widermann is a fantastic artist, lovely person and ridiculously good looking, but that's all beside the point. I'm guessing WormysQueue's question was regarding male perception vs the fact that these illustrations were all drawn by a female artist (note, I'm not giving my opinion on this, I don't really have time to write a fully considered response)...
Although... I'd say the three examples there are wholly appropriate:
Shelyn is the goddess of beauty, and I certainly found her to be one of the most attractive female illustrations Paizo has (though I'm speaking as a straight woman).
Actually, I don't like that one too much as a picture of Shelyn. She's supposed to be dressed less revealingly. She's more about romance than pure pleasure. That's Calistria. Cal should have had a picture like that, and Shelyn should have been less revealing.
I like Lillith's version of Shelyn a lot.
Beyond that, it is a great picture. Though personally, I would have gone for a little less weight. Just a little bit. But it does show that women don't have to have wasp waists (which would probably have been all-too-appropriate for Cal the wasp lady) to be attractive.
Callistria is the goddess of lust, a dominatrix angle is pretty fair.
I don't know. I call that more a picture of just her revenge aspect. A blend of lust, revenge and trickery should look a bit differently.
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I would have gone for a little less weight. Just a little bit. But it does show that women don't have to have wasp waists (which would probably have been all-too-appropriate for Cal the wasp lady) to be attractive.
That's just the recent vogue, for most of human history (more than a century ago, and certainly pre-industrial) curves were a very positive thing -- they showed you were healthy and had enough to eat, making it more likely that you were fertile and would be in a good position to raise a child to maturity. For most of the last million years of human history obesity was exceedingly rare -- only the greediest & laziest would be prone to it.
And here it is!Beyond that, it is a great picture. Though personally, I would have gone for a little less weight. Just a little bit. But it does show that women don't have to have wasp waists (which would probably have been all-too-appropriate for Cal the wasp lady) to be attractive.
I think she is perfectly ok as depicted by Lilith here, but YMMV, as they say.
Stefan
I think the original issue was that it was perceived as being a man who drew seoni, while eva widermann is a woman.
Which sounds delightfully sexist really.
The d7 guy said on his website that its okay for women to empower women with sexuality, but if men do it their sexist, yet men are apparently obliged to stand up for and loudly denounce any sign of female sexuality, like breasts.
Which again, doesn't really seem to me a good approach to you know, actual f-ing* equality.
*doesn't indicate rage or emotion, I just grew up in a culture of swearing. I'm actually amused by the stupidity of it when rendered in simple terms.
Err... I dunno about anyone else, but the gender of the artist is pretty much irrelevant to what I was posting about in this thread.
Personally, I think it's possible for art created by a woman to reflect sexist cultural norms just as it's possible for art created by a man to reflect diversity and equality. Perhaps one could make some generalizations about the likelihood of art reflecting sexist cultural norms based on the gender of the artist, but I don't think I'd want to go there.
Err... I dunno about anyone else, but the gender of the artist is pretty much irrelevant to what I was posting about in this thread.
Personally, I think it's possible for art created by a woman to reflect sexist cultural norms just as it's possible for art created by a man to reflect diversity and equality. Perhaps one could make some generalizations about the likelihood of art reflecting sexist cultural norms based on the gender of the artist, but I don't think I'd want to go there.
Agreed. And I admit that on the examples shown before, I didn't really pay attention who they were representing...so a goddess of lust or thrall of Malcanthet should obviously be sexualised as that is part of what they are.
Of course making all the female NPCs in an adventure (or all female NPCs who get their pics in the book) thralls of Malcanthet would still be horribly sexist.And one might throw in a generic wondering why so few pantheons have gods of romantic love or lust. Well, Greeks had couple of somewhat-gods like Eros and Adonis.
I think she is perfectly ok as depicted by Lilith here, but YMMV, as they say.
I was talking about the official picture, not about Lillith's rendition
That's just the recent vogue
I'm just the recent vogue, too.
I might even say that most players are the recent vogue. But I tell you - as soon as they resurrect my great-grandfather and he wants to play, we're going to get him all curvy pictures of all curvy women.
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Personally, I think it's possible for art created by a woman to reflect sexist cultural norms just as it's possible for art created by a man to reflect diversity and equality.
While I wouldn't generally disagree with this sentence (it is true after all) I disagree with the opinion that the depiction of scarcely clad women is generally the reflection of any sexist cultural norm.
In fact, any sexist would be terribly afraid of self-confident women like those illustrated by Eva Widermann (or Seoni). There is no better sign of Sexism than women being forced to wear clothes that are hiding that it's women inside. Women have fought for the right to wear what they want even if that means wearing something as impractical and unhealthy like a bare midriff top in winter.
So: showing self-confident, powerful women who dont't have to care about what other peoples' morals and tastes are is in no way sexist. At least not in my book. And to be honest, if I had to look for one sexist in this whole argument, my finger would point directly to d7.
So: showing self-confident, powerful women who dont't have to care about what other peoples' morals and tastes are is in no way sexist.
I agree with that.
And I haven't said anywhere that any particular image (or artist) is sexist. My point has been that women in fantasy art generally and in Paizo's art specifically are often (though certainly not always) depicted as scantily-clad or otherwise sexualized in contexts where sexuality is either irrelevant or even wildly out of place, such as in the midst of a battle scene. Also, they're often sexualized in ways that would represent a functional disadvantage were they to act in the way one would expect a character of that type to act. Witness bare midriffs or deep cleavage on otherwise heavily armored women in so much fantasy art, for example.
Pictures of sexy women are great sometimes. Pictures of sexy men are great sometimes. But when women are depicted as sexy in contexts where sexiness is not relevant, or where it would represent a functional disadvantage, I don't think it's out of line to assume the art is reflecting a sexist cultural norm.
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Am I the only Kyra fan?
Definitely not. She was my favorite out of the first batch of iconics. Real fresh of breath air, she was.
I'm sad to hear about some of the artists that aren't being used any more as well. It always gets fairly depressing to hear so many complaining about an art style being "unfit", and especially tiring since I'm a comic fan and I have to hear that all the time. Personally, I love the variety, and I hope a lot of the artists that could be labled "cartoony" by some are still sticking around(Kevin Yan for example).
As for giving d7 credit for getting people engaged in the discussion, I wouldn't go quite so far. I just can't reward blog pretention like that, especially coming from one that "screens the calls" so to speak. And honestly, Orientalization? Seriously?
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[I'm sad to hear about some of the artists that aren't being used any more as well. It always gets fairly depressing to hear so many complaining about an art style being "unfit", and especially tiring since I'm a comic fan and I have to hear that all the time. Personally, I love the variety, and I hope a lot of the artists that could be labled "cartoony" by some are still sticking around(Kevin Yan for example).
Kevin Yan is one of the best artists they have!
I would like to know why she has two right feet, though. That Rakshasa theory is sounding better all the time.
If Holiday Seoni is wrong, I don't want to be right.
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I like Santa Seoni.
MY opinion about this piece of art,as with any piece of art is this:
If you don't like it, don't look at it. But don't presume that because you don't want to look at it, that I don't either. I am perfectly OK with making my own choices about what is offensive, I don't need some womens rights dude on the internet to make those choices for me.
BTW my wife LOVED the picture.
love,
malkav
ok I am officialy curious now, can someone send me the picture ? ^^
steeltoes@live.nl
Chief Technical Officer
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I may be blind but where I find the wallpaper section???? I want to know as well.
Here. (That particular illo of Seoni is not in it, BTW.)
thank you muchly, seriously, they aren't nearly as bad as some magazines I have ;) *coughs*
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Yeah i was really hoping for the classic sexy witch seoni sitting on a giant pumpkin for Halloween. Maybe we can get a V-day one this year. :D
However all witch related modeling must be done by the new appropriate iconic. Whom I believe will do an excellent job "filling out" any required wardrobe necessities. ;-)
