Rules or not rules, i have never seen one of my players using his character's beloved sword to hack into dungeon walls.
Once again, we don't need rules for everything.
Common sense should be used.
This might be more appropriate to discuss in the "Environment" section of the rules. My pet peeve is that you can chop through a stone wall with your sword without a chance of damaging the sword.
Instead of making dungeon walls harder, I'd rather see a sundering weapon receive a certain portion of damage as well.
Rules or not rules, i have never seen one of my players using his character's beloved sword to hack into dungeon walls.
Once again, we don't need rules for everything.
Common sense should be used.
It's not a case of a missing rule; we do have a rule for it, and it's a dumb rule. If a small change in the rules can get rid of these weird situations, why not change the rules?
There's a handy section of the rules for dealing with characters who think they can knock down walls with no consequences.
Touché! :-)
In 31 years of roleplaying I have never nor ever seen anyone else hack through a wall with a weapon. Or even with the appropriate tools. But I have seen a dragon killed with a hand grenade. I hate when that happens....
In 31 years of roleplaying I have never nor ever seen anyone else hack through a wall with a weapon. Or even with the appropriate tools.
The point is not really that people actually do it. But I have been in a situation where I had to force myself to say "Even though there's a stone door here that we could easily bash through with my half-orc's morningstar and the fighter's greatsword, and I really want to know what's on the other side, I'll just ignore what it says in the rules and pretend that it can't be done." It kind of took me "out of the moment", so to speak.
Yes, make it so hard that it then makes no sense for anyone to ever do any mining. I don't know about you, but I'm sick of all those dwarves living in caves. Make them live on the surface like normal folk.
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Well I have never used my weapons to go digging, but have used tools left in an earlier room to dig a tunnel bypassing a certain ambush and come in from behind. Absolutely ridiculous of course, that we could tunnel that fast. But it was fun. Caught the GM off guard anyway.
Now I can see Adamantine weapons being used that way, but not regular weapons. Course it also depends upon the weapon now that I think about it. A bludgeoning Adamantine weapon, sure, but not an edged one. The weapon would still likely take some damage and loose its edge. And how do you sharpen Adamantine blades anyway?
Yes, make it so hard that it then makes no sense for anyone to ever do any mining. I don't know about you, but I'm sick of all those dwarves living in caves. Make them live on the surface like normal folk.
If your dwarves are using swords and morningstars for mining purposes, they might as well live on the surface too. :-)
Yes, make it so hard that it then makes no sense for anyone to ever do any mining. I don't know about you, but I'm sick of all those dwarves living in caves. Make them live on the surface like normal folk.If your dwarves are using swords and morningstars for mining purposes, they might as well live on the surface too. :-)
If a hulking 20th level half-orc can't bash through some stone with a morningstar, what chance does a 1st level STR 12 dwarf expert have with a pick (which can also be a weapon)?
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The only time I've seen this happen is in a campaign where the players acquired a construct designed to burrow through walls (can't remember the name of it atm, but it's in MMII and was originally a Chainmail mini).
That being said, I thought it was pretty cool. The PCs made so much noise using the construct that they managed to attract a whole lot of attention.
A more common version of destroy-the-environment that I encounter is when the PCs decide the best way to deal with their opponents is to burn down their HQ. That one gets annoying fast.
The only time I've seen this happen is in a campaign where the players acquired a construct designed to burrow through walls (can't remember the name of it atm, but it's in MMII and was originally a Chainmail mini).
That being said, I thought it was pretty cool. The PCs made so much noise using the construct that they managed to attract a whole lot of attention.
A more common version of destroy-the-environment that I encounter is when the PCs decide the best way to deal with their opponents is to burn down their HQ. That one gets annoying fast.
I've got to agree with Sebastian. In all the time I've been running games, no one wants to take the time and make the noise it would take to tear down a wall in a dungeon, but I've heard the "let's burn this thing down" arguement a few times when the players are planning an assault.
If a hulking 20th level half-orc can't bash through some stone with a morningstar, what chance does a 1st level STR 12 dwarf expert have with a pick (which can also be a weapon)?
Read my first comment: I think it should be possible, but I think it should also have a chance of ruining the morningstar. That's why I suggested that sundering should cause some damage to the weapon you're using (probably proportional to the difference in hardness between your weapon and the object you're trying to break).
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If a hulking 20th level half-orc can't bash through some stone with a morningstar, what chance does a 1st level STR 12 dwarf expert have with a pick (which can also be a weapon)?Read my first comment: I think it should be possible, but I think it should also have a chance of ruining the morningstar. That's why I suggested that sundering should cause some damage to the weapon you're using (probably proportional to the difference in hardness between your weapon and the object you're trying to break).
So how many picks would said dwarf have to go through?
I think trying to add this rule is adding another level of complexity to an already complex system that would cover the act of something that seems to rarely ever happen anyways.
I think trying to add this rule is adding another level of complexity to an already complex system that would cover the act of something that seems to rarely ever happen anyways.
*groan*
I think there are probably plenty of good reasons not to change the rules, but "Everyone ignores this rule, so we should keep it as it is" is not a good one.
Creative Director
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Dungeon tunneling shouldn't be impossible, but it should be discouraged unless the adventure calls for it. I'm not sure there needs to be actual rules in the game saying it shouldn't be done, though. Tunneling through a wall to get by a stubborn door is fine, after all. Tunneling through a dungeon and ignoring the layout of the dungeon, though, starts to sound like a difficult player who'd probably be more happy doing something else; what does this player have his characters do when the party has an urban adventure? Kill everyone and then complain when he gets thrown in jail? And what about wilderness adventures? Light the forest on fire and then sift through the ashes with a rod of metal and mineral detection to find the treasure?
In any event, I've never seen extensive dungeon tunneling in game either. Doesn't mean the "Adamantine weapons ignore hardness up to 20" isn't going to be changed, of course... That rule's fine for demolishing objects, but it DOES make it seem able for people to scoop away stone walls with adamantite arrow heads. Which is silly.
Well how many HP do those walls have? 90 per 10ft x 10 ft section if they are just masonry... 500 hp if they are hewn stone and 900 if they are unworked.
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The only time I've seen this happen is in a campaign where the players acquired a construct designed to burrow through walls (can't remember the name of it atm, but it's in MMII and was originally a Chainmail mini).
That being said, I thought it was pretty cool. The PCs made so much noise using the construct that they managed to attract a whole lot of attention.
A more common version of destroy-the-environment that I encounter is when the PCs decide the best way to deal with their opponents is to burn down their HQ. That one gets annoying fast.
Last time we did that, the fire spread quickly, destroyed an entire section of town. Two churches were destroyed, an orphanage and countless homes. Several people died and the town guard made a very active hunt for the arsons responsible. The City Lord made no attempts to hide the fact that who ever was brought forward would be "dealt with severely." Gallows were built in the town square to await the perpetrators.
We vacated town REAL quick for a while and decided that burning down HQs is a BBBBAAAAAAADDDDDDDD idea.
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The only tunneling problem I've seen has been magical. A warlock with the shatter at will ability caused a few problem trying to say he could shatter a PORTION of the wall at a time.
The only tunneling problem I've caused has been magical as well. Summoned celestial badgers and earth elementals make great tunnel makers, even for the short period they are available for summon spells.
Guess the tables I've been at haven't been crazy enough to start smashing the walls with our valuable magic items...
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I've actually run a high-level adventure where a 20th-level monk used flurry of blows to give himself a burrow speed by punching through a mountain. It was annoying.
Then again, I've also run a game where I attacked the villain's headquarters. The GM had just spent a week designing this big, ominous fortress perched on a cliff overlooking the sea. Needless to say, he wasn't happy at all when my 8th-level character announced to the party, "You know, I still have that earthquake scroll I purchased a few months back..."
Like the time I had planned out my strategy for a Red Dragon attacking the PCs in its immense underground lair- taking advantage of terrain and flying and all sorts of goodness (PCs were getting too cocky). And the Dragon came swooping over their heads and the Druid said "Good thing I prepared Earthquake today. You guys might wanna start running to the exit now."
So I figure, "Cool. At least I kill the druid off."
Then the darn Cleric says, "Good thing I prepared Resurrection today."
I start cussing. "Wait," I say. "The Druid's body is entombed beneath tons of rubble. You can't get to him."
Cleric says, "Spell says some part of the body must still exist. Not that you have to have access to it."
I decide not to be a jerk and have the Druid resurrect in the rubble and be crushed to death.
Now, AFTER the game I read Earthquake and learn it only does 8d6 damage from falling rubble. Dang PCs slid it past me... but I made them pay... Oh, I made them pay.
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The only tunneling problem I've seen has been magical. A warlock with the shatter at will ability caused a few problem trying to say he could shatter a PORTION of the wall at a time.
The only tunneling problem I've caused has been magical as well. Summoned celestial badgers and earth elementals make great tunnel makers, even for the short period they are available for summon spells.
Guess the tables I've been at haven't been crazy enough to start smashing the walls with our valuable magic items...
See, THAT is just cool use of summoning! I like that must remember to annoy my GM with that some day.
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See, THAT is just cool use of summoning! I like that must remember to annoy my GM with that some day.The only tunneling problem I've seen has been magical. A warlock with the shatter at will ability caused a few problem trying to say he could shatter a PORTION of the wall at a time.
The only tunneling problem I've caused has been magical as well. Summoned celestial badgers and earth elementals make great tunnel makers, even for the short period they are available for summon spells.
Guess the tables I've been at haven't been crazy enough to start smashing the walls with our valuable magic items...
Thanks, not to get off topic, but there are lots of cool non-combat things you can do with summoned creatures. One of my favorite ones is with Summon Monster I - summon a celestial monkey! Or as we like to call them at the table, a celestial trap monkey! Best thing to send in if you don't have a rogue and you suspect hallway is trapped. Just make sure your character can speak celestial so you can properly direct the trap monkey for more complicated actions, say pulling the mysterious lever or the button marked "Do not push".
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And back on subject - some effects do less damage against objects. Maybe we can add a note that unless the weapon is designed for mining (like picks), the damaged caused to stone walls and the like are halved?
Or are we over-complicating this? Is this is KISS situation?
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The only time I've seen this happen is in a campaign where the players acquired a construct designed to burrow through walls (can't remember the name of it atm, but it's in MMII and was originally a Chainmail mini).
That being said, I thought it was pretty cool. The PCs made so much noise using the construct that they managed to attract a whole lot of attention.
A more common version of destroy-the-environment that I encounter is when the PCs decide the best way to deal with their opponents is to burn down their HQ. That one gets annoying fast.
Last time we did that, the fire spread quickly, destroyed an entire section of town. Two churches were destroyed, an orphanage and countless homes. Several people died and the town guard made a very active hunt for the arsons responsible. The City Lord made no attempts to hide the fact that who ever was brought forward would be "dealt with severely." Gallows were built in the town square to await the perpetrators.
We vacated town REAL quick for a while and decided that burning down HQs is a BBBBAAAAAAADDDDDDDD idea.
Oh nice, I like your GM! What a subtle way of discouraging the players from doing that...now if you had a decanter of endless water...
Hey why isn't there a decanter of endless fire? oops did I put that out there?
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*****And back on subject - some effects do less damage against objects. Maybe we can add a note that unless the weapon is designed for mining (like picks), the damaged caused to stone walls and the like are halved?
Or are we over-complicating this? Is this is KISS situation?
Within the Smashing an Object section on hit points it refers to ineffective weapons.
Certain weapons just can’t effectively deal damage to certain objects
This is all it says though so it still leaves it up to DMs as to what is an ineffective weapon, though all miners I've encountered as a Player (and used as a DM) have been using picks as opposed to...oh, I don't know...greatswords.
If a hulking 20th level half-orc can't bash through some stone with a morningstar, what chance does a 1st level STR 12 dwarf expert have with a pick (which can also be a weapon)?Read my first comment: I think it should be possible, but I think it should also have a chance of ruining the morningstar. That's why I suggested that sundering should cause some damage to the weapon you're using (probably proportional to the difference in hardness between your weapon and the object you're trying to break).So how many picks would said dwarf have to go through?
I think trying to add this rule is adding another level of complexity to an already complex system that would cover the act of something that seems to rarely ever happen anyways.
Mining is not combat. There is no reason the combat rules should apply to digging tunnels.
There is no reason this needs to be in the rules at all. Much like there aren't rules for haggling, building roofs, digging latrines, or a million other mundane things tunneling is best handled by DM discretion and use of the profession/ craft/ or knowledge skills.
Profession (mining)
Knowledge (engineering)
Speed of mining depends on substance. Skill checks every hour to avoid cave ins.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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I have had several characters who have had adamantine weapons (usually bludgeoning) that smash through walls on a regular basis. In my current STAP I have a Goliath Barbarian whose strength while raging is approaching 50. He blows through almost any door with ease, and will spend a full attack bashing his way through even the most stubborn walls. He bashed his way through the ceiling of Divided's Ire, dug a tunnel AROUND the Keeper's of Ahazu's Walls of Force in Ahazu's Well.
Yes that's like 900 to 1000 hp of 10ftx10ftx5ft sections of wall with maximum power attack. Hell if he gets a runnign start and Leap Attacks he quadruples his power attack. So currently he can dish 3d6+116 on a leap attack against an inanimate object. Or he does 3d6+78 on each of his four attacks a round.
Hell there are even feats like Destructive Rage that help you smash objects. No one sunders their treasure, but plenty of folk will blast through walls, doors, and gates with reckless abandon.
--Vrock slide!
*****And back on subject - some effects do less damage against objects. Maybe we can add a note that unless the weapon is designed for mining (like picks), the damaged caused to stone walls and the like are halved?
Or are we over-complicating this? Is this is KISS situation?
Within the Smashing an Object section on hit points it refers to ineffective weapons.
Certain weapons just can’t effectively deal damage to certain objects
This is all it says though so it still leaves it up to DMs as to what is an ineffective weapon, though all miners I've encountered as a Player (and used as a DM) have been using picks as opposed to...oh, I don't know...greatswords.
The ineffective weapon rule combined with the cave-in and collapse rules will discourage inappropriate digging. However, if the PCs use proper digging tools, ie. picks, and take the time and materials to shore up the hole they're digging, I'd let 'em dig.
A warp wood spell on the shoring beams ought to take care of that just fine.
Also I don't think burrow speeds allow movement through stone, only just through soil. But I don't know if there is a specific rule about that.
I found the rule on burrow speed in the SRD. Its listed under speacial abilities.
So no burrowing through stone walls by summoned badgers. Unless a rock to mud spell is cast beforehand.
Just don't forget to randomly drop ceilings on them when they start regularly drilling through walls without making an knowledge(engineering) check to see how to dig through without collapsing the place on them.
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Rules or not rules, i have never seen one of my players using his character's beloved sword to hack into dungeon walls.
Once again, we don't need rules for everything.
Common sense should be used.
I've never seen it done, either. I've seen an adamantine blade used to hew down a door before. (We anticipated the consequences, and suffered them. Namely, the attraction of the curious and the extraordinary readiness of the beings behind the door.) I don't consider it a problem.
I've only dug through a wall once and seriously considered it twice. Once, when there was no other way to get past a trap the characters can't disarm (this time we dug through the wall) and one other time when the module in question pissed the whole party off.
To the guy who's annoyed at a 20th level monk punching through walls: He's 20th level, he's supposed to do crazy & weird things that surpass reality.
Seriously, shape stone seems more worrisome than a weapon to me.
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I think trying to add this rule is adding another level of complexity to an already complex system that would cover the act of something that seems to rarely ever happen anyways.*groan*
I think there are probably plenty of good reasons not to change the rules, but "Everyone ignores this rule, so we should keep it as it is" is not a good one.
To clarify, I did not say 'everyone ignores this rule', I said a situation which would use this rule rarely comes up. As most posters before me have pointed out.
We do not need a rule for EVERY decision in D&D, especially the ones that would likely occur as rarely as digging your own tunnel with a sword.
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We vacated town REAL quick for a while and decided that burning down HQs is a BBBBAAAAAAADDDDDDDD idea.
Two words: Innocent Bystanders!
Be it Neutral Servants, Good prisoners or simply the posibility of one or the other. That, combined with "but what about the Loot/Clues" is usualy enought credible deniabilty to railroad the party away from the "Burn Baby Burn" strategy!
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And you can do that to metal walls too. A steel wall is only hardness 10. That's it. Meaning that some guy with a greataxe and 10 strength will eventually cut through a solid foot of steel, all without damaging his sword.
What about a system (probably optional) for damaging weapons? On a critical miss or anytime the weapon hits something harder than itself?
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And you can do that to metal walls too. A steel wall is only hardness 10. That's it. Meaning that some guy with a greataxe and 10 strength will eventually cut through a solid foot of steel, all without damaging his sword.
What about a system (probably optional) for damaging weapons? On a critical miss or anytime the weapon hits something harder than itself?
That makes sense. Or, by following the laws of physics (which I will readily admit have NO place in D&D! :), whatever damage the weapon does to an inanimate object it takes itself unless it's actually configured to direct such energy away (like a pick). If we again visit reality (bah!) punching a wall shouldn't really do anything to it. The point of a pick being able to chip away at a wall isn't from straight-on hitting it... it's hitting it at enough of an angle to pull pieces away from the wall... that's why a pick is shaped like it is.
Anyway... :) We generally use the "common sense" rule when things like this come up.
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I found the rule on burrow speed in the SRD. Its listed under speacial abilities.
So no burrowing through stone walls by summoned badgers. Unless a rock to mud spell is cast beforehand.
So they summon a thoqqua. A little higher level but it still works. That's how my group handled the bridge in Red Hand.
Everything I could have said already has by other posters... either they use the right tools and possess mining knowledge or they risk the respective cave-ins.
It ain't broke, no need to fix it.
Heh, I remember I tried that once in Forgotten Realms by polymorphing into an Umber Hulk... five minutes of loud tunneling later the drow ambushed us.
I hate to keep mentioning older version but:
in 1e if you rolled poorly (a 1) not only was it an auto miss, but you damaged your weapon (like hitting your sword on a rock on the dungeon wall) with your wild miss, putting a chink in the blae that gave you -1 damage, until you got it fixed.
Somtimes, really unlucky fighters (lots of 1s) finished a leg of the adventure (trying to get back to town to get to the forge to fix thir weapon) with a club or a dagger because their sword was so damaged.
If that could happen on a miss, imagine what would happen if you deliberately used the weapon for that.
Owning a cornucopia of leathermans in the past, I have broken knife blades simply by trying to turn a screw with the point, or pry open a lid on something, or broken the pliers by trying to bend a chain link in subzero tempurature.
Yes I know these implements arent designed for this purpose, and thats why they broke, I thought I could get away with it and I was wrong.
Same holds true to rock and stone walls with a sword.
Those damage and hardnesses for walls are there for characters using the proper items to channel through (Ie Picks and Mauls)
A military pick, or warhammer is simply the same as the tool of the name, other than the fact it has been HARDENED further for use in war/battle. Actually making the weapon version, be definition, tougher.
So I would rule if your dwarf was armed with these types of weapons he could do just that.
But think og the noise, echoes, and time it would take to do that kind of work, while everyone else stood there.
Also the walls/ceileing collapsing would still be a factor.
What happened to old rules like that from 1e, that just got mysteriously dropped. Not even altered,they are just gone.
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In my version of Saltmarsh, the escaped wizard kept wandering back in disguise, to the mansion, which the PCs were attempting to refit as an Adventurers' Guildhouse, and causing unrest among the workers, so they downed tools.
The harrassment by his friendly gnolls didn't help their work ethic, either.
Everything I could have said already has by other posters... either they use the right tools and possess mining knowledge or they risk the respective cave-ins.
It ain't broke, no need to fix it.
Let's take the particular situation my character was in. I had a half-orc cleric with a (normal, non-magical) morningstar, and there was a stone door I wanted to bash through. The rules (that I consider "broken" or at least "silly") said that my half-orc could bash his morningstar against the door 24 times and destroy it, without blunting a single spike on the morningstar. I thought that was silly, so I declined to do so. Does the fact that I declined to use the rule make it a good rule?
In any event, I've never seen extensive dungeon tunneling in game either. Doesn't mean the "Adamantine weapons ignore hardness up to 20" isn't going to be changed, of course... That rule's fine for demolishing objects, but it DOES make it seem able for people to scoop away stone walls with adamantite arrow heads. Which is silly.
The only time I had a PC tunnel through walls was with a player who had a barbarian with a magical adamantine waraxe. Even then, he only did it a few times. Of course, in each case, he used it to pull a flanking maneuver on enemies in tight spaces by clearing a path behind them.
It was a pretty cool trick that he did not over use and the players thought it was funny when he started using the battle cry of "Oh Yeah!" (Kool-aid man reference for those who don't remember his destructive days of breaking through walls).