Grapple, Disarm, items in hand, and consistency

[JoelF847]

I noticed something in the grapple and disarm rules that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. They treat free hands (or two handed items) differently. This also made me think about what happens if you're grappled (or initiate a grapple) and you have something in hand.

1. Disarm - if you beat the DC by 10 or more, the target drops the items in both hands. This seems to cover 2 separate items (1 in each hand) as well as a two handed weapon.

2. Grapple - Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a -4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.

3. If you are grappled, what, if anything happens to items you are holding. Does it matter how large they are? Does retaining an item in one or both hands while grappled cause you to suffer the -4 penalty above?

So, based on these points, there are several questions that need answering. First, why is it a penalty of 10 to disarm a 2 handed weapon, but only a -4 to grapple one handed? I would think that the rules for hands free with these maneuvers should be the same. I'm thinking 5 for each would be balanced.

Secondly, if you are grappled (or pinned) do you still have items in hand? Can you still draw a weapon? Can you attack with a weapon? The definition of both conditions say you cannot take actions with two hands, but if you have a bastard sword, can you attack the person grappling you (or that you are grappling for that matter)?

Should the disarm action allow disarming of 2 separate items with one really good roll? Should the difficulty of this be different from disarming a 2 handed weapon?

[Freesword]

Regarding your first point, I brought that up in this thread. Based on Jason's response which appears to agree with my understanding of the intent of the rule, the DC to disarm is per item regardless of how many hands you have on it with the 10 or more applying only to a second item. An especially good roll can plausibly disarm 2 separate items so I have no problem with that, and it should actually be more difficult to disarm 2 separate items then a single item held in both hands.

As for grappling, if an opponent grapples you and you have something in your hands, you retain it in your hands until you drop it (a free action) and take the -4 on your grapple checks unless you do so. The exceptions of note are locked gauntlets, which will not allow you to drop the weapon, and shields, which may or may not require 2 hands to loose) The Grappled condition states that it only prevents you from moving, taking Attacks of Opportunity, and performing actions that require 2 hands. Drawing a one handed weapon would be possible as would attacking with it. Retrieving a stored item I would say is not possible as you would need both hands (this could be subject to interpretation, depending on how/where the item is stored).

[Kyrinn S. Eis]

As regards two-handed item: Shouldn't the Str x1.5 (or x2) be figured into the Disarm somehow?

Further, if the above weren't the case, I'd think that the attacked figure would still retain possession of the item, even if it weren't 'usable' in the given state. However, your point regarding a Bastard Sword does bring up the question of the effectiveness of the Disarm option.

As regards Grappling one-handed, I'd again say that the Str x1.5/x2 issue needs to be kept in view. If the target of the Grapple who is holding an object (or keeping a door closed, etc.) has superior Str, that ought to count for something.

However, in any other circumstance, I'd think that the target would be forced to make a 'retention check' to keep hold of the object (etc.), and would likely be open to AoOs during this point simply because of the distraction.

As regards performing actions while Grappled, I would certainly think it possible, as long as the objects are already in hand, and possibly if a check were made to reach them versus the Grapple.

I could list real world circumstances, but they are generally considered useless when placed within the context of the game rules.

[Mosaic]

Kyrinn S. Eis wrote:

I'd think that the target would be forced to make a 'retention check' to keep hold of the object (etc.), and would likely be open to AoOs during this point simply because of the distraction

I was once fiddling with saves for every ability score. My thought for Str was "Grip," to be used to avoid dropping things or being pushed.

[Kyrinn S. Eis]

Mosaic wrote:

I was once fiddling with saves for every ability score. My thought for Str was "Grip," to be used to avoid dropping things or being pushed.

There is a .pdf product entitled A Skill for Everything which asks that same question and related ones with skills, and BAB, etc. It is essentially creating a different game, but it is certainly food for thought.

For the price, you may find it worth a read. :)