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In the description of the Belt of Giant Strength, it says:
"The belt grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Strength of +2, +4 or +6. This bonus is a temporary ability bonus until the belt has been worn for 24 hours."
My question is, what happens next? Does the ability bonus become permanent? Does this mean wearing the belt is no longer required? If so, can the belt then be given to someone else to give them a permanent ability boost? Surely, this is not what the designers intended. It allows an entire party to get a permanent ability boost from a fairly common and easy-to-make magic item.
I have interpreted it to mean that as long as you are wearing it more than a day its worth the effort of considering it an enhancement bonus to your stats and calculating it in everywhere instead of just tacking on the bonus on the fly. I would assume that if you remove it you lose the bonus.
It's been read at the tables I've been at that once the bonus is "permenant" then you can have things like bull strength cast on you again and they stack with the belt.
I'm not sure if this is right but that's the way I've seen it play out.
Well, the most obvious benefit is, when the bonus is considered 'permanent' you can qualify for Feats that require an ability score that you normally don't have (and with the item, after 24 hours, you effectively have).
Other effects are for spellcasters, who can memorize spells as if having their 'new' ability score.
I don't believe that this is correct. My interpretation of this is if the item states that it is an enhancement bonus, it is just that, an enhancement. The item only applies its respective bonus as temporary adjustment because the item can be removed to lower the score. Furthemore, you cannot stack items or spells that have the same description as a bonus. For instance, two items or spells that give an enhancement of +5, one will be overrided. However, if you have casted 2 spells or have 2 items with the same indicator to what the spell gives you, the higher one overrides the lower.
Indicators are as follows; morale, enhancement, luck, insight, armor, temporary, etc.
Tome of Gainful Exercise is one example of an item that permanently boosts your Con.
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For the difference between "temporary" and "permanent" stat boosts in Pathfinder, see page 388 and 389.
The upshot: "Temporary" boosts only give bonuses associated with the respective stat. So if you have a STR of 16 and buckle on a belt of strength +2, for the first 24 hours you still have a STR of 16 ... but you get +1 on melee attacks, melee damage, STR-based skill checks, and so on. But if you take 16 points of STR damage, you're paralyzed.
A "permanent" bonus actually ups your STR to 18. If you take 16 points of STR damage, you still have a STR of 2. It's not actually permanent: if you take the belt off, for instance, you're back to a 16 STR.
And yes, the bonus -- whether temporary or permanent -- is still an enhancement bonus, and won't stack with, e.g., stat-boosting spells.
(While the distinction between "temporary" and "permanent" boosts is a good idea (among other things, it discourages swapping stat-boosting items around the group), this could definitely be worded better. It could be as simple as calling it a "temporary boost" or a "permanent boost.")
BTW, a boost to INT does not grant retroactive skill points. (If I'm wrong about this, please post the page number. I believe the confusion comes from the seventh paragraph, right column, on 388, but notice that neither that paragraph, nor the "Intelligence" paragraph it refers to, says anything about retroactive skill points. Pathfinder has not changed this from 3.5.) However, an INT-boosting item instead grants an associated skill, which (aside from the lack of choice and the possibility that it's duplicating a skill you already have) amounts to the same thing.
Again, that associated skill replaces the "retroactive skill bonus" a boost to INT would have given you ... it doesn't add to it. Again, a good idea: an INT-boosted character gets a mostly complete boost, but it stops the problem of doffing and donning an item to shuffle "retroactive skill points" around.
My understanding is that "permanent" increases are treated as an actual ability score increase, where as "temporary" bonuses are not.
For example, bull's strength is temporary. The increased strength can not be used to meet feat requirements.
After 24 hours, the strength increase from a belt of giant strength is treated as the actual attribute score for any Strength-based requirements.
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My only disagreement is one of terminology: they do grant "retroactive skill points", but they dictate how they're applied. Note that page 388 says "This might cause you to gain skill points", and this is the typical source.
A permanent bonus to Intelligence could, in fact, cause you to gain skill points ... in the future, not retroactively. (And, as noted in the paragraph on 388, whatever skill points are thus gained should be tracked, so they can be removed if the permanent bonus goes away.) You could immediately gain skill modifiers, though.
Again, there is nothing about "retroactive" skill point gain. Pathfinder does not change this rule from 3.5, thankfully. Again, the fact that the headband of vast intelligence provides a skill (at rank equal to HD) is evidence that retroactive skill points are not intended. Why would a headband allow "double-dipping" of that sort?
Personally, I think that skill points and permanent -- but not really permanent -- INT-boosts are problematic enough that the whole issue should just be sidestepped by saying that skill points are based solely on non-boosted INT, and once gained, can't be lost. Keep the skill associated with a headband, though ... that's a nice little addition.
Creative Director
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I believe the intent for these items is to achieve two things:
1) Allow Int-boosting items to grant skill rank bonuses, thereby making it so ALL stat boosts from these items work the same, rather than having an awkward rules exception for Intelligence.
2) Prevent the "musical chairs" effect, where folk simply throw a Strength item back and forth to each other to aid in a difficult climb, or throw a Dex boosting item back and forth to each other to aid in making a Reflex save.
The way this is intended to work is that the enhancement bonuses are "permament" as long as the item is worn, making it a bit more difficult to farm around the bonuses. Functionally, this plays out no differently than 3.5's method; your gloves of Dexterity +6 still works the same in day-to-day adventuring, but now if you level up you can use that boost in Dex to qualify for feats and stuff.
In any event, even a permanent enhancement bonus to an ability score is still an enhancement bonus. This bonus does not stack with other enhancement bonuses, so you can't gain the benefits of a belt of giant strength +6 AND a bull's strength spell. The belt, in that case, would overlap over the bull's strength's measly +4 bonus, and the total adjustment to Strength would remain +6.
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Creative Director
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Have you considered making the skill restriction a generic rule on p 388 instead of specific to the headbands? Something like "The choice of skill ranks to gain is persistent. A player cannot swap Intelligence boosting items and hope to gain a different skill each time."
Indeed, under the current rules a high level character could have a selection of +2 Int items that each grant a different skill. Dungeon crawl this week? Knowledge (dungeoneering). Found a Gate? Knowledge (planes). Etc.
Personally, I think the best way to handle Int-boosting items is to say that every item that boosts Intelligence must have a "hardwired" set of skill ranks in it. That way, when you find a +4 Int item, it gets written like this:
headband of intellect +4 (Diplomacy 2 ranks)
Makes it a bit more complex to write out the item, but no more so that things like ioun stones or strands of prayer beads or neclaces of fireballs.
You could even say something like this: All items that boost Intelligence provide the appropriate number of ranks to Perception unless otherwise indicated. (I chose Perception simply because it's a simple and common skill... any baseline skill would work.)
In this case, it'd certainly be possible to find an Int-boosting item that overlapped with ranks you already have, and if you're already maxed out for your level, the item's ranks would be "wasted." I'd be okay with that, since that's basically how these items end up working in 3.5 already and the game hasn't broken for it.
Jumping into this so pls excuse me if I'm off a bit, or repeat issues that have been settled. Correct me if I'm off, but I see this rule as a way to simplify the effect of enhancement items on the character by limiting the temporary bonus issue to spells.
Don't see that you have to wait the 24 hours to get the bonus, only that it loses its 'temporary' classification. You still lose the bonus if you actually remove the item.
Int enhancement - gain skill points at new levels, increase # of spells known
Wis enhancement - gain addt'l spells per day
Enhancements from items aren't 'lost' when wild shaped, etc.
Just a couple examples that pop into mind.
It's been read at the tables I've been at that once the bonus is "permenant" then you can have things like bull strength cast on you again and they stack with the belt.
I'm not sure if this is right but that's the way I've seen it play out.
That is by no means correct. Once you have worn the best its type does not change, so they still don't stack.
The point of the wording is that you can then qualify for things like feats as if you had that higher stat.
Magic Item Bonuses can count to meet the requirements of spells.
Yeah I see that now too. Quite frankly I didn't think we had it right, but the DM had ok'ed it and was using it himself too so I didn't feel bad about it.
The idea that got around was that the word "permenant" changed the type of bonus it was. Of course this was with people that had been playing 3.5 so the confusion may have actually been from over analyzation of the situation.
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Personally, I think the best way to handle Int-boosting items is to say that every item that boosts Intelligence must have a "hardwired" set of skill ranks in it. That way, when you find a +4 Int item, it gets written like this:
headband of intellect +4 (Diplomacy 2 ranks)
The way INT-boosting items work now is the way you describe in the first paragraph, so I'm a little confused by your illustration.
This "headband of intellect +4 (Diplomacy 2 ranks)" doesn't work nearly as well as the current headband of vast intelligence. You may be confusing the INT bonus to skills (+2 for a headband +4) with the actual ranks that "would have been" gained. That's why the item in PF Beta works as it does.
For example, a 10th-level PC donning a headband +4 "would have had" 20 extra skill ranks (2 per level), not just the 2 you suggest. So the PF Beta gives him those 20 skill points in the form of a pair of "hardwired" skills with ranks equal to his level.
This is a really elegant solution ... for item-granted permanent INT-boosts. I especially like the ability for the creator (or DM) to hardwire different skills in.
I'm not really sure what the solution should be for non-item permanent INT-boosts. (Do they even exist? I can think of no non-item INT-boosts that last for 24 hours, even in non-core 3.5, so it may be a moot point.)
Responding in no particular order to other points from other posters:
Allowing skill points gained from INT-boosts to stick around after the INT-boost is removed leads to: "Hey, cool, you gained a level and because of your headband +4, you got two extra ranks and spent them. I'm about to gain a level ... can I borrow your headband +4 for 24 hours so that when I level, I get two extra ranks? I'll give it back right after I spend them."
Hardcoding the skills encourages min-maxing, penalizing normal players.
There's also a creator's paradox. Creating an item that grants skill bonuses normally requires 5 ranks in that skill (although headbands have omitted that detail.) If it overlaps you'd never fully benefit from the items you create.
I disagree with your first sentence entirely -- in fact, I think you have it exactly backward, and your illustration is an example of that. Not hardcoding the skills is what leads to min-maxing. A wizard played by a "normal player" won't find enough benefit in his hand-crafted +4 headband to make the 3 skill ranks invested worthwhile? Really? No, a min-maxing wizard-player would have a problem with that.
That said, I've always been in favor of item-creation allowing the meeting of prereq "by committee." As long as everyone spends the time required, and the group as a whole can meet the prereqs, I say go for it.
Another possibility that's intriguing would be to have the item gain its associated skill(s) by "imprinting" on someone with that skill. So you'd create the headband +4, then you'd hand it off to someone with the two skills you want in it, and as long as they have 3 ranks in the skill(s) and wear the headband +4 for 24 hours, it gains those skills. Whether it could be "re-imprinted" or not, with the same process, would be up for debate. I suspect you'd want it to be, while I'd prefer that it keep the skills it got first.
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Creative Director
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Heh... yeah, of course I meant That rather than +2 ranks for a +4 Int item, you get +2 skills at Max Rank for a +4 Int Item. And if you get max rank in a skill you already have, it overlaps and you don't get the full benefit from the item.
Being able to swap the Int items around whenever someone levels is exactly what we DON'T want them to do.
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Creating a character at high level encourages min-maxing, giving greater benefit. An organically developed character is penalized in comparison.
This is true, but it's true in every single area of character generation, from boosting ability scores to picking skills, feats, and spells, to everything else. The problem has nothing to do with the way a headband gives its skill bonuses, except in that indirect way.
A wizard that creates an INT-boosting item and decides to make it boost a skill he already has a substantial investment in is not a very smart wizard. (Or he's making the item for someone else.)
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Since pg 388 has come up, does a temporary strength boost increase a character's carry capacity for encumberance purposes or must that be a permanent increase such as from the belt?
It's not listed in what's boosted, so it needs a permanent increase. (Encumbrance is one of those things you don't want to be constantly recalculating, so it's probably better this way.)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Heh... yeah, of course I meant That rather than +2 ranks for a +4 Int item, you get +2 skills at Max Rank for a +4 Int Item. And if you get max rank in a skill you already have, it overlaps and you don't get the full benefit from the item.
Being able to swap the Int items around whenever someone levels is exactly what we DON'T want them to do.
So for something like the Headband of Vast Intellect: while it is a Temporary Bonus, you don't get the boost to Skills and once it becomes a Permanent Bonus that's when the Skill Ranks kick in. Is this how you're saying that the items aren't meant to be a "pass around" item. You have to wear the item for 24 hours to gain the full benefit of any extra perks (this goes for things like Encumberance, Saving Throw Bonuses and the like, correct)?
So you get the Basics of what the Boost does, which is to add the +1-+3 to your Ability Bonus. Any other Bonuses come after 24 hours.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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The way this is intended to work is that the enhancement bonuses are "permament" as long as the item is worn, making it a bit more difficult to farm around the bonuses. Functionally, this plays out no differently than 3.5's method; your gloves of Dexterity +6 still works the same in day-to-day adventuring, but now if you level up you can use that boost in Dex to qualify for feats and stuff.
Just a comment - you always could use enhancement boosts from items to qualify for feats. This is not a change, though it may well be more explicit.
So for something like the Headband of Vast Intellect
Just out of curiosity, why did Paizo change the names of common items like the headbands of intellect and why was the charisma buff item changed to a headband from an amulet (I believe it was an amulet). It makes it harder to look up when you just remember the original names.