The pics of races make the elves and half elves taller than humans.
But no mention of it in writing.
Please clarify.
Taller elves are fine, but the elf pic should be thinner as elves are more frail and spindly than the standard human and not look like a buff super hero (at least not the standard elf)
please drop the elf quest ears that point out at right angles.
makes elves look like zelda.
Extra long ears for elves is cool and "spock" ears for half elves is good. Just no elf quest floppy puppy ears.
I don't like the long ears either. They make the elves look like donkeys. My personal preference is the Tolkien elf, with no direct reference to anatomic differences from humans, just infused with an inner light of awesomeness. Vanyar are +15 to awesome! :)
Elves are mortal in this world and therefore arent filled with light and awesomeness.
the question still remains as to their hieght.
Elves werent smaller than men in tolkien, but they were "fairer"
Classic Dnd elves have alwasy been smaller and wimpier.
(The FR elves were on par with the humans with regard to height, thank goodness!)
I second (third?) the request that Golarion's ELVES LOSE THE FLOPPY EARS! Those aural abominations look _really_ bad.
Also: p. 8 of the PF Campaign Setting, the third sentence of the first paragraph reads (emphasis mine): "Elves - proud, tall, slender ...".
And there was a thread or at least a post or two about elves being so buff, but I can't find it.
well if elves are going to be tall,than the race description should say it in writing like it does in other PHBs.
Personally, I know my players will perfer taller elves and half elves.
And there was a thread or at least a post or two about elves being so buff, but I can't find it.
well if elves are going to be tall,than the race description should say it in writing like it does in other PHBs.
Personally, I know my players will perfer taller elves and half elves.
and where does that leave the human as the definition of average?
or was this average of (all) core classes, rather than of all 'M sized' (core) classes?
I have to say, I've never seen any setting where it's actually said that elves are short. And except for the elf in the very front of the PHB, I've never seen any pictures of elves, which make them appear short.
I have to say, I've never seen any setting where it's actually said that elves are short. And except for the elf in the very front of the PHB, I've never seen any pictures of elves, which make them appear short.
In second edition D&D they state elves are shorter by the chart they had for height and weight.
Personally I've never used the description exactly how they are in any book. If I wanted tall elves, which is what I usually did that's what I used. Art work might give me a idea but I modify based on what I like for my world. In the end appearances is just fluff that can be modified to suit you needs with out affecting how the game works.
In the case of the pictures in the PF beta book that's just one artistic interpretation. It might fit how you view elves but to each their own.
The pics of races make the elves and half elves taller than humans.
But no mention of it in writing.
Well, it is in the height/weight table:
http://pfogc.com/description#table-8-3-random-height-and-weight
Well, it is in the height/weight table:
http://pfogc.com/description#table-8-3-random-height-and-weight
According to that table the average human is 5'9" 175 lb, the average elf is 5'11" 132 lb, and the average half-elf is 5'9" 155 lb. These are all numbers for males. For females the average human is 5'2" 140 lb, the average elf is 5'9" 115 lb, and half-elves are 5'7" 135.
Thread jack: The base human weights need tweeking. Based off Mody Mass Index (BMI), the average male and female are overweight. I suggest that the table be reduced to a base weight of human males to 95 from 120 and the base wieght of human females to 65 from 85. This will give the average human male and female a BMI of 22 (normal is 18.5-25). I'm about to go do some more stats, and see if this is indead a good proposition across the whole human spectrum of rolls.
I can't handle tall elves; I still think orcs are lawful evil. I have zero interest in 4th Ed. Dungeons and Dragoncraft.
Anyone else here know their Tiltowait from their Malikto?
Mike
I can't handle tall elves;
If you can't handle tall elves, you can't handle fantasy.
I actually cannot handle short elves. They're supposed to be tall and willowy. Tolkien's elves were tall. FR elves were tall. Golarion's elves are tall, too.
There has to be something taller than humans, or humans aren't the average.
I still think orcs are lawful evil.
I think chaotic orcs make more sense. We have hobgoblins for millitaristic, tyrannous lawfulness.
Creative Director
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The illustration of the seven races in their underwear in the Beta is going to be replaced in the final game; we ordered that art originally for one of the first Pathfinders, and hadn't locked down the look for all the races. Elves in particular.
Elves are taller than humans, but they aren't that muscualr. Their ears are long, but they point up along the side of the head so the point is just above the top of the head. Eyes are not human; they're larger and dark (no whites showing). For the more or less definitive look on our elves, check out Elves of Golarion, the second Pathfinder Chronicles book.
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Tolkien's elves were only tall if they had been to Valinor. Otherwise, from my understanding, they were pretty average size. Of course, Tolkien seemed to have a thing for tall guys, just check out his Numenoreans... :eek
And of course, Tolkien's not the only word on what makes an elf an elf.
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Well, it is in the height/weight table:
http://pfogc.com/description#table-8-3-random-height-and-weightAccording to that table the average human is 5'9" 175 lb, the average elf is 5'11" 132 lb, and the average half-elf is 5'9" 155 lb. These are all numbers for males. For females the average human is 5'2" 140 lb, the average elf is 5'9" 115 lb, and half-elves are 5'7" 135.
Thread jack: The base human weights need tweeking. Based off Mody Mass Index (BMI), the average male and female are overweight. I suggest that the table be reduced to a base weight of human males to 95 from 120 and the base wieght of human females to 65 from 85. This will give the average human male and female a BMI of 22 (normal is 18.5-25). I'm about to go do some more stats, and see if this is indead a good proposition across the whole human spectrum of rolls.
That assumes that humans in Golarion are held to the same standard as the BMI standard. I'd be interested to see how humans from real-world history (from the middle ages, from ancient rome, from ancient egypt, and from even further back) would equate to this, or if humans change over time.
In any event, this is an interesting notation; we'll keep it in mind in the final game (but that does mean you might want to also post this observation to the appropriate playtest thread)...
Hope they are going to include so head close ups like in previous editions, Im curious about your description of elf eyes, sounds like vampires from buffy the vampire slayer TV series.
ALL PUPIL no whites? freaky.
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Tolkien's elves were only tall if they had been to Valinor. Otherwise, from my understanding, they were pretty average size. Of course, Tolkien seemed to have a thing for tall guys, just check out his Numenoreans... :eekAnd of course, Tolkien's not the only word on what makes an elf an elf.
Oh, I know. I would, however, cite him as the father of modern fantasy. Many of the races he tinkered with have made their way into D&D in one form or another. That doesn't mean I'm saying they're set in stone.
An elf is fictional, after all. We can do whatever we want with them.
:D
Tolkien's elves were only tall if they had been to Valinor. Otherwise, from my understanding, they were pretty average size. Of course, Tolkien seemed to have a thing for tall guys, just check out his Numenoreans... :eekAnd of course, Tolkien's not the only word on what makes an elf an elf.Oh, I know. I would, however, cite him as the father of modern fantasy. Many of the races he tinkered with have made their way into D&D in one form or another. That doesn't mean I'm saying they're set in stone.
An elf is fictional, after all. We can do whatever we want with them.
:D
Santa as a Jolly old Elf predates tolkien, I think all elves should be fat with white beards!
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Creative Director
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Tolkien's elves were only tall if they had been to Valinor. Otherwise, from my understanding, they were pretty average size. Of course, Tolkien seemed to have a thing for tall guys, just check out his Numenoreans... :eekAnd of course, Tolkien's not the only word on what makes an elf an elf.Oh, I know. I would, however, cite him as the father of modern fantasy. Many of the races he tinkered with have made their way into D&D in one form or another. That doesn't mean I'm saying they're set in stone.
An elf is fictional, after all. We can do whatever we want with them.
:D
Tolkien's one of the "fathers of modern fantasy," but not the only one. Especially in matters regarding D&D, where the works of Michael Moorcock, Robert E. Howard, Jack Vance, H. P. Lovecraft, and Fritz Leiber (to name a few) were as influential or more so than Tolkien on the game's nature and flavor.
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Tolkien's one of the "fathers of modern fantasy," but not the only one. Especially in matters regarding D&D, where the works of Michael Moorcock, Robert E. Howard, Jack Vance, H. P. Lovecraft, and Fritz Leiber (to name a few) were as influential or more so than Tolkien on the game's nature and flavor.
Don't get me wrong. I've talked about all of those guys (besides Jack Vance) in other threads. One of things that other and I have noticed is that these guys influence is slowly being dredged out, and its something we don't like. I geuss we're just oldie-moldies, but I miss the sword and sorcery feel.
Paizo seems to have more people who've read these kinds of books than other places, hence I like it here very much.
So, actually, thank you James!
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According to that table the average human is 5'9" 175 lb, the average elf is 5'11" 132 lb, and the average half-elf is 5'9" 155 lb. These are all numbers for males. For females the average human is 5'2" 140 lb, the average elf is 5'9" 115 lb, and half-elves are 5'7" 135.Thread jack: The base human weights need tweeking. Based off Mody Mass Index (BMI), the average male and female are overweight. I suggest that the table be reduced to a base weight of human males to 95 from 120 and the base wieght of human females to 65 from 85. This will give the average human male and female a BMI of 22 (normal is 18.5-25). I'm about to go do some more stats, and see if this is indead a good proposition across the whole human spectrum of rolls.
That assumes that humans in Golarion are held to the same standard as the BMI standard. I'd be interested to see how humans from real-world history (from the middle ages, from ancient rome, from ancient egypt, and from even further back) would equate to this, or if humans change over time.
In any event, this is an interesting notation; we'll keep it in mind in the final game (but that does mean you might want to also post this observation to the appropriate playtest thread)...
That would be interesting to find out, but I have to agree with JB. The players are going to be familiar with modern heights and weights for humans and visualizing that. I always felt the human females were a tad too short (most of my female friends are between 5'5"-5'8" abouts)
Santa as a Jolly old Elf predates tolkien, I think all elves should be fat with white beards!I thought he was a 3rd-4th century roman-greek living in what is now turkey... lol :D
Can elves grow beards?
There is only ONE place I have ever seen an elf with a beard. In 1970 or so "The Hobbit" the animated movie came out and elrond had a beard.
But no mustache.He is technically a half elf, but by tolkien mechanics hes full elf because he made the choice of immortality.
Tanis half-elven from dragon lance had mnustache and beard. But again, he's half elven.
I think Elves are like American Indians, they dont grow facial hair,
But that may be just my take, Maybe they are like chineese and only gowreally weird long mustaches and freaky long sole patches when they are old?
On a Side note, I used to play in a campaign of a friends where elves dont grow old and die, they just evolve into dragons. (thus no chance to gow facial hair)
Oh, I know. I would, however, cite him as the father of modern fantasy. Many of the races he tinkered with have made their way into D&D in one form or another. That doesn't mean I'm saying they're set in stone.
An elf is fictional, after all. We can do whatever we want with them.
:D Tolkien's one of the "fathers of modern fantasy," but not the only one. Especially in matters regarding D&D, where the works of Michael Moorcock, Robert E. Howard, Jack Vance, H. P. Lovecraft, and Fritz Leiber (to name a few) were as influential or more so than Tolkien on the game's nature and flavor.
Moorcock didn't have elves, per se, they were meliboneans which if you ask me always seemed to be the basis for the Drow (minus the matriarchal sosciety) at least in my perception, but they were never "elves" for the purposes of defining "what is an elf".
No elves from Lovecraft either.Vance, leiber, howard... not familiar with their works.
Who else really wrote fantasy books where the races were elves, dwarves, goblins and orcs, with dragons, rangers, wizards, worgs (wargs), and trolls, along with magic swords and the lot?
Pretty much these things are as they are in DnD, as they are in Tolkien.
Alot of writers actually came AFTER DnD who write about this stuff so we can safely say were influenced BY DnD rather than influencing DnD with their writings.
So although many writings of many authors influenced DnD, Tolkien can be largely credited for how we understand the DnD dwarf and elf.
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My preferences on elven features:
- Tall
- Thin
- Pointy ears, but more Vulcan-like (TOS, not TNG) than Lodoss-wars/WoW floppy bunny-ears
- Eyes should be distinctive, facial features narrow and sharp
- No facial hair (more a feature of half-elves), unless and until they are very old. You can tell an elf is old if they have a long beard, and those elves that have facial hair tend to let it grow long, not trim it into a neat little goatee or something
- Age to maturity slightly slower than humans (perhaps taking twice as long), have a short period of about 100 years where they might actual do stuff, and then retire to live the remaining 100-200 years they might have (some elves live much longer, but that is usually always in that twilight phase of not doing much -- maybe they spend 100 years writing a poem or something)
(Threadjack -- wanted to describe a difference facial hair style above, but you can't say "Van Rhymes-with-Mike" on the boards, or else they think you're talking about lesbians who drive Kia Sedona's)
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Vance, leiber, howard... not familiar with their works.
I don't think that Leiber or Howard had any elves... Leiber created Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser whilst Howard created Conan the Barbarian and Kull the Conqueror. You can read some of the Lovecraftian influence in their works as well (especially in Howard's stuff, I think he was friend of H.P. Lovecraft).
I'm not familiar with Vance's writing, but I think he's the guy who inspired Vecna (rearrangement of his name).
I'm not familiar with Vance's writing, but I think he's the guy who inspired Vecna (rearrangement of his name).
Vance, leiber, howard... not familiar with their works.
No blame spell slots on him. The fire and forget type D&D magic was inspired by his work
There is only ONE place I have ever seen an elf with a beard. In 1970 or so "The Hobbit" the animated movie came out and elrond had a beard.
How dreadful that movie was.
And speaking of abysmal movies with bearded elves in it: I think the D&D movie had an old longbeard elf in it, too.
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Creative Director
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The D&D feel of elves, dwarves, orcs, halflings, treants, and the balor certainly were primarilly inspired by Tolkein. But there's more to the game than that.
Moorcock: The entire concept of Law vs. Chaos (and the alignments) pretty much comes from Moorcock's books.
Lovecraft: Mind flayers, aboleths, the Far Realm, ghasts, the Underdark, evil books like the Demonomicon, ancient gods like Tharizdun.
Vance: The way magic works in D&D; Vecna; demon lords; ioun stones; LOTS of spells (like prismatic ray)
Leiber: Wererats; the rogue class and its subculture and the way it works (such as with thieves' guilds and all of their skills); spells like true seeing; VERY heavy influence on all D&D cities.
Howard: LOTS of stuff, from Conan's influence on the genre on down to little things like frost giants and the remorahaz.
So sure, Tolkein had a huge influence on D&D, but I don't think he was the hugest influence on Gygax and Arneson when they designed the game. And it's worth pointing out that most of the authors I listed above were doing their thing before Tolkein...
But your point is taken: elves were very much from Tolkein's writings. Doesn't mean Pathfinder has to ape his elves entirely: We're pretty much locked in to long ears and strange eyes at this point. Mostly because that's how we here at Paizo like our elves.
The D&D feel of elves, dwarves, orcs, halflings, treants, and the balor certainly were primarilly inspired by Tolkein. But there's more to the game than that.
But your point is taken: elves were very much from Tolkein's writings. Doesn't mean Pathfinder has to ape his elves entirely: We're pretty much locked in to long ears and strange eyes at this point. Mostly because that's how we here at Paizo like our elves.
I wasnt implying you HAD to use Tolkien elves. More so I was saying everyones CONCEPT on elves has been buttered over by tolkien, and certainly since the movies came out.
I remember the old hobbit cartoon I mentioned above... as a child I had a hard time conceptulizing the difference between elves,goblins and gollum because of the bad art in that cartoon.
The rivendell elves and the mirkwood elves looked nothing like each other (ie elrond vs. the mirkwood elf king)
It want until recently that I read in Tolkiens guide to middle earth that Legolas was the SON of that Elf king (something I failed to pick up the many times I read LOTR) which then made me laugh because the visual I have of Legoals now is Orlando Bloom and the Visual I have of Legolas's father the ElfKing is from that nearly 40 year old cartoon!
At least Paizo elves dont walk like gollum and have nappy sideburns!
I actually like, (and applaud) the fact paizo is going to take a totally different stance on their elves (and Drow).
Just as long as the elf ears dont make them look like donkeys, make mine paizo!
In any event, this is an interesting notation; we'll keep it in mind in the final game (but that does mean you might want to also post this observation to the appropriate playtest thread)...
Assuming that "Ability Scores and Races" is the appropriate section, then I already did. See Random Human Height/Weight . I agree with Coridan that modern standards should apply since that is what players are familiar with.
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Creative Director
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I actually like, (and applaud) the fact paizo is going to take a totally different stance on their elves (and Drow).
Just as long as the elf ears dont make them look like donkeys, make mine paizo!
Apart from a few illustrations at the start of Pathfinder, when we hadn't finalized the look of our elves... we have never illustrated elves with ears that stick out to the sides. And we've NEVER made them look like donkey ears, as far as I can tell. Unless what I think is a donkey ear and what you think is a donkey ear are from two different animals.
In any event, it's pointless to get worked up about an art style that we abandoned for elves well over a year ago.
I actually like, (and applaud) the fact paizo is going to take a totally different stance on their elves (and Drow).
Just as long as the elf ears dont make them look like donkeys, make mine paizo!
Apart from a few illustrations at the start of Pathfinder, when we hadn't finalized the look of our elves... we have never illustrated elves with ears that stick out to the sides. And we've NEVER made them look like donkey ears, as far as I can tell. Unless what I think is a donkey ear and what you think is a donkey ear are from two different animals.
In any event, it's pointless to get worked up about an art style that we abandoned for elves well over a year ago.
not worked up at all (you dont think the art in the underware in the beta PDF look like donkey ears?)
Ive seen the art for alot of the second darkness stuff and it looks like elf ears are very erect (which is fine).
I kinda like that, actually because to tel you the truth, it has always been hard to distinguish the drawing of a half elf from a full elf (at least to me) with out making the halfelf uber muscular or giving it facial hair.
not worked up at all (you dont think the art in the underware in the beta PDF look like donkey ears?)
Not james but no, not even close. make em wider and like 2 times as big and your closer
Donkey and rabbit ears look very much alike
As I've said before, I'm super-happy there's a new race-lineup coming as I was one of the biggest complainers on the RotRL art style.
Although thinking about it now, I hope the new race line-up keeps them all in their underwear =p
Personally,I feel descriminated against. Why is ok to show males without tops but taboo to show females with out tops.
One way or the other I say!
Either no tops on the females or cover up those mens pecs!
Sheeesh!
Slightly boggled at the height/weight chart. The max human male height is 6'6" as is the max elven male height, but the max half-elven male height is 6'4"?