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I'm looking for a good way to use the appraise skill and then the subsequent selling of loot. (Granted, this is more of a 3.5 question considering that our group is currently playing that version. However, I will be converting to PFRPG when the final rules are published.)
For instance, a rogue uses his appraise skill to determine the value of a gem. The rules are pretty clear on how to do this. No problem here....I secretly roll for him and use the rules to determine what he perceives to be the value of the item.
However, I'm interested in how others rule (or roleplay *****gasp*****) the actual selling of the loot. Typically, the shop owners interested in purchasing the items must have their own appraise skill and checks...correct? What would be a fair appraise skill modifier for the typical shop owner?
Also, if anyone can demonstrate to me (via rules/skills/feats and/or sample die rolls) how best to emulate the haggling process for said items.
Let's say the rogue finds a gem worth 100gp. He appraises it high at 130gp. The shop owner appraises it correctly at 100 gp, and obviously would like to pay less than 100gp for it. How can the haggling scenario be played out in a fun way that puts a value on some of the skills that are available to the PC's?
Another question that just occured to me....if a gem is valued at 100gp....what can the PC really expect to get for it? 50gp? Why would a NPC pay 100gp for a gem thats worth the same?
What if the PC was trying to sell a miniature statue that was worth 100gp? If I'm a shop owner, and know that it is only worth 100gp, I'm not willing to pay 100gp. If I did, I cannot make a profit.
Any thoughts are welcome.
I'm looking for a good way to use the appraise skill and then the subsequent selling of loot. (Granted, this is more of a 3.5 question considering that our group is currently playing that version. However, I will be converting to PFRPG when the final rules are published.)
For instance, a rogue uses his appraise skill to determine the value of a gem. The rules are pretty clear on how to do this. No problem here....I secretly roll for him and use the rules to determine what he perceives to be the value of the item.
However, I'm interested in how others rule (or roleplay *****gasp*****) the actual selling of the loot. Typically, the shop owners interested in purchasing the items must have their own appraise skill and checks...correct? What would be a fair appraise skill modifier for the typical shop owner?
Also, if anyone can demonstrate to me (via rules/skills/feats and/or sample die rolls) how best to emulate the haggling process for said items.
Let's say the rogue finds a gem worth 100gp. He appraises it high at 130gp. The shop owner appraises it correctly at 100 gp, and obviously would like to pay less than 100gp for it. How can the haggling scenario be played out in a fun way that puts a value on some of the skills that are available to the PC's?
Another question that just occured to me....if a gem is valued at 100gp....what can the PC really expect to get for it? 50gp? Why would a NPC pay 100gp for a gem thats worth the same?
What if the PC was trying to sell a miniature statue that was worth 100gp? If I'm a shop owner, and know that it is only worth 100gp, I'm not willing to pay 100gp. If I did, I cannot make a profit.
Any thoughts are welcome.
A rule a few past groups I've been involved with have used: diplomacy can be used for negotiations, so these DMs just assumed haggling was included. An opposed diplomacy roll (character's bartering ability versus merchant's) helped determine the value of the sell. The starting value was set at 1/2 the item's worth, with a percent modifier based on the result of the diplomacy check.
If memory serves, I think this could vary the item's price by 20%: either up, or down, 10 percent, so it was a gamble for the character.
I had another DM use a similar rule, but the variance was only 5%.
my two cents,
My DM wanted me to add how our group does it. We just say that gems are another form of currency. so gems are equal to their listed value, consider them trade bars. objects, trinkets, art and jewelery are all dependent on the perceived value from person to person and are therefore subject to the normal half value and haggling rules. take into account that the PCs might sell the items straight to NPCs and get full value, rather than to middlemen shop keepers, and you get a fairly good middle ground.
my third cent
My group usually rules that any merchant in a city has a expert level of 1 for every city category that he lives in, unless the PCs specifically target either high or low. so a shop keep in a village might have a 1 or 2, while one in a metropolis might have 5 to 6. you can also apply a lvl adjust for how specialized his store is. A magical equipment dealer is much more skilled than the general goods shopkeep down the way.
First of all, I am in total agreement that "haggling" rules should be, if not included as core, then offered in supplements and the like. I think it is a good concept and one that players (especially those who build social characters) often try to use.
That said, the biggest concern that I see is the following:
No matter what the exact rules you come up with are, the end result is the same; either the PC "wins" and gets to sell his item for more (or buy one for less). If the merchant "wins" it's the opposite.
The problem here is that nothing forces the PC to accept the merchants victory. If the player does not like the price given, she can simply say "no thanks!" and take her business to the next merchant down the street and try again - continuing to do this until she gets a price she likes.
Obviously there will be times when this cannot be done. Not every town has a hundred thousand merchants the PCs can try and deal with, sometimes it's an emergency and the PCs can't wait, sometimes only one merchant has what they need, etc. The point is, not every situation can be an exception and when it isn't, they will probably try again and again and again. Perhaps even going so far as to not sell any loot at all until they are sure there are a few merchants around as "backup"
So, while I'm not saying these rules should not exist, I am saying that the above is a problem that needs to be taken into consideration.
Haggling Idea:
Contest of skills (appraisal or otherwise)
(PC Skill Check + PC Cha Modifier) - (NPC Skill Check + NPC Cha Modifier) + 50 = the percentage (%) of the full item(s) value that it can be sold at.
(NPC Skill Check + NPC Cha Modifier) - (PC Skill Check + PC Cha Modifier) + 100 = the percentage (%) of the full item(s) value that it can be bought at.
Selling Example:
Pete wants to sell a masterwork longsword to Sam the shopkeeper.
Pete rolls a 19. Sam rolls a 10.
28 - 20 = 8
(19+6+3) (10+10+0)
8+50= 58
58% of 315 = 182.7gp or 182 gp & 7 sp
Variables:
Pete's Cha =16 (cha mod +3); Pete's Skill =6
Sam's Cha =10 (cha mod +0); Sam's skill =10
mwk longsword value = 315 gp
Pete thus sells the sword for 182gp & 7sp instead of the standard 157gp & 5sp.
Buying Example:
Pete wants to buy a masterwork longsword from Sam the shopkeeper.
Sam rolls a 10. Pete rolls a 19.
20 - 28 = -8
(10+10+0) (19+6+3)
-8+100= 92
92% of 315 = 289.8gp or 289 gp & 8 sp
Variables:
Pete's Cha =16 (cha mod +3); Pete's Skill =6
Sam's Cha =10 (cha mod +0); Sam's skill =10
mwk longsword value = 315 gp
Pete thus buys the sword for 289 gp & 8 sp instead of the standard 315 gp.