Rolling to generate ability scores is something I like for several reasons including the two below:
1 - It generates a nice normal distribution of ability scores within the population that I can use as a reference
2 - It inserts some unpredictability and randomness into the character creation process, which is nice, since most other mechanical aspects of character creation entail planning and uniformity
The first point, of course, could be dealt with by maintaining rolling for NPCs as means of determining the distribution of the ability score within a population, yet have a different system of generating ability scores for characters.
Apart from rolling, various point-buy systems seem to be common/popular forms of ability score generation - whether the point buy is on 1 for 1 basis, or on 1 for X basis, where X changes depending on how high the ability score is being raised. I personally don't allow them as a DM, primarily because of reason 2. As a player, I will, of course, use whatever system the DM perscribes, but my preference is rolling.
Nevertheless, I am considering a system that would combine point-buy and rolling as follows:
The DM decides on the point-buy value that characters will be built on. The players than roll dice (the rolling system again picked by the DM - could be 4d6 drop the lowest considered standard, or some other system) and assign them to ability scores. The point-buy value of the character is then calculated and if it is below the point-buy value set by the DM, then the player gets to distribute the extra points among his character's abilities. If the value is above the point-buy value set by the DM, nothing happens.
This system ensures that there is some DM-set baseline that all characters will meet. It also provides a trade-off. If you roll high, you will have better overall ability scores, but less control on how ability scores are distributed. If you roll low, your ability scores will be lower in total, but still meet the DM-set baseline and you get to spend the points precisely how you want. Also, some degree of randomness is still assured, which is welcome in my book.
In any case, what do you think about the system?
Note: I am posting this in the Pathfinder RPG General forum, because I am not entirely sure where else to place generic rules discussion and it pertains to the Pathfinder RPG/3.5E in as much that I would use the above ability score generation method in those two RPGs.
(Alternatively, the player who rolls high could lose the extra points and be forced to take them off their ability scores, but I am a generous DM and would let the character keep the scores.)
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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So you've got a roll with a safety net. A lot of people like to do that. My one concern is that a player who rolls poorly has some choice in where his "compensatory" points go, whereas a player who rolls just well enough is stuck with what she rolled. It seems to reward poor rolling.
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I have my players assign dice to their attributes, out of a pool of 28, at least three dice per attribute.
They roll each stat, and take the best 3d6. (As an odd rule, if they roll more than three "6's", they add +1 per additional "6".)
It gives the players a lot of say in which attributes they don't want to be lousy, but the dice are always the agents of whimsey.
Sounds merciful enough, but it still allows for Alpha Males to exist in your gaming table, and the least I need is my campaign becoming a repetition of The Stanford Prison Study, as is the almost inevitable destiny of all tables with "alphas" and "underdogs". I believe in a PC's inalienable right to be born in equality regarding his peers.
So you've got a roll with a safety net. A lot of people like to do that. My one concern is that a player who rolls poorly has some choice in where his "compensatory" points go, whereas a player who rolls just well enough is stuck with what she rolled. It seems to reward poor rolling.
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I have my players assign dice to their attributes, out of a pool of 28, at least three dice per attribute.
They roll each stat, and take the best 3d6. (As an odd rule, if they roll more than three "6's", they add +1 per additional "6".)
It gives the players a lot of say in which attributes they don't want to be lousy, but the dice are always the agents of whimsey.
That is a very interesting method Chris. Do you see any tendencies on how your players allocate their pool of 28 dice?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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No real patterns. Some people spread the dice out. Other people just put 3 dice into their typical dump stats and try to maximize their favorite attributes, typically Dexterity, Intelligence, or Charisma.
Nothing makes me feel warmer than to see someone cram 10d6 into a stat and get a 15 as the sum of the best three dice.
The method I like using to combine rolling and point buy is simple. Each player spends 28 or 25 points as per normal and get thier stats. They then roll a 3d6 for each stat. They take the higher of the point buy or roll for each stat.
My players normally broke down into two camps. The first would ignore the rolls and get the stats they wanted and then anything from the rolls would be extra. The others would put 8's in thier dump stats and hope for a good roll to help them out.
Just to add an idea for what it is worth. Once we made a chart of various ability score arrays created with point buy. We then rolled to see which array we ended up with.
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I saw a pretty awesome idea on the Wizards boards back in the day of 3.5 that we used for our Age of Worms campaign.
I can't format it very well here, but it can be found over here.
Basically, a player bought a number of dice for each score and rolled, then could use contingency points to adjust up and down.
It was a pretty elegant system and I think I might use it again down the line.
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Sounds merciful enough, but it still allows for Alpha Males to exist in your gaming table, and the least I need is my campaign becoming a repetition of The Stanford Prison Study, as is the almost inevitable destiny of all tables with "alphas" and "underdogs". I believe in a PC's inalienable right to be born in equality regarding his peers.
Exactly! After over 20 years of playing the game, and using the random stat generation (3D6 at first, and 4D6 since AD&D came out) I can certainly agree with this -- usually every PC party includes an Alpha Male or Female with several high stats, and one or more "underdogs" who feel like henchmen in comparison. It's not fun -- either as a player or a DM. Of course, in some campaigns this won't matter so much
The biggest problem in random ability score creation is that *every* DM has his own opinion on what kind of stats are "good enough" for a PC -- often regardless of the nature or "lethality" of the campaign. Also, some DMs seem to feverishly stick to their rule that you only get to roll one or two sets, and that's it, regardless of how poorly you rolled. And some DMs have even told me "You've already rolled 10 sets without a single score over 14, and I'm getting tired... it's going to be the next one, and you'll keep whatever you roll".
With point buy, there's a whole new level of "ability equality" between the players. :)
1) Every score starts at 6 and assign 12d6 as desired (minimum 1d6 per ability score); do not drop any dice, but no score can be over 18 total (any extra points are lost). An even distribution of 2d6 yields scores between 8 and 18 (average of 13); 1d6 yields a score between 7 and 12 (average 9.5), 3d6 yields a score between 9 and 18 (average of 15.9), etc.
2) Roll 21d6 and assign the dice results as desired to each ability score; minimum of three dice per score and no score can exceed 18. Note that this method can result in very high (or very low) scores in one or two abilities, but tends to give an average of 12.25 per score. A higher powered variant using 24d6 will usually give an average score of 14.
I've got no problem with static point buys, but the two things I hate, are for one, the terribly low static totals presented as standard point buys, and for two, the way the point buy system works, someone new to the system typically has a hard time propperly aligning points. a simple 1-1 ratio would be so much better. (I honestly don't think its right for an 18 to cost twice as much as a 15)
High scores cost more because they are less probable when rolling randomly. An 18 only has a 1-in-216 chance of being rolled on a 3d6 (1-in-54 chance with 4d6, drop lowest). If the point buy did not reflect that with increasing cost, then the amount of points available to spend would need to be significantly reduced to compensate (so that buying an 18 would cost most of the points). Otherwise, the point buy would not be balanced against other generation methods.
1 - It generates a nice normal distribution of ability scores within the population that I can use as a reference
2 - It inserts some unpredictability and randomness into the character creation process, which is nice, since most other mechanical aspects of character creation entail planning and uniformity
Something I've seen, but haven't had the chance to try yet is a method that gives the fairness of point buy, but keeps things more "organic" (I hate that word) in that it's not specifically set by the player.
Instead of plagiarizing the work, I'll just quote it from another forum:
PLAYING CARD BASED METHOD
My standard card method (Elite Array power-level) is to take:
(1,1,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,3,4,4,4,5,5,5,5,6,6,6)
1) Set aside two 2s.
2) Shuffle the other cards and deal them out into six piles of three cards each.
3) Reveal which cards are in which pile.
4) Assign each pile to a stat.
5) Take the two 2s you set aside and add them to whatever pile(s) you want, with the one exception that you can't add a 2 to a pile if that would bring it's total to more than 18.
6) Record your stats.The worst you could get in a single stat is a '4' (with both aces and one of the two 2s). Your floating 2s can bring that to a '6' or '8' (if you don't want a '6') and the next lowest stat will be at least an '8' (if the remaining 2 got piled with two 3s). This means you're never forced to play a character with a -2 stat modifier if you don't want to, but you may get the option. You can also guarantee that at least one of your stats is a 16 or higher, or that at least two are 14s or higher, if that sort of thing is important to your character concept, so there's a lot of point-buy's flexibility in this without everything being completely player-specified.
I've heard of other methods (using cards from 4-9, etc). I like the card method because as the numbers are played out randomly, they are "used up", meaning if you draw low stats to start, you are guaranteed higher stats in the end, and vice verse. Or, the option of drawing average stats across the board is still there (the random aspect).
I think point buys are fair and can be fun as it gaurentees you the stats for the class you are going to play but most players I know prefer rolling as it gives them the oppurtunity to get LOTS of high stats. But good stats I have learned mean nothing in the face of dumb decisions. I had a player roll awesome stats, 3 18s, 2 17s, and a 15. He then proceeded to basically tell the party how awesome he was and that since he was so awesome that he should be the leader, he then proceeded to lead them into a cultists lair and charge the head cleric and tak 2 crits that were also sneak attacks and killed in one round. It was one of those moments that the other players were just in awe of...
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ok this is how I have my groups run:
3d6 for stats plus 1d4 (marked seporatly)
the 1d4 shows the range allowed in that stat, with a 1-1 point buy from other stats so if someone got
5+2+4=11 and 3 then using the point buy they could end up with anywhere from a 8 to a 14 in that particular stat.
because each stat has its own d4, you have a little less control over the overall spread, because you can only decrease your dump stat by X and increase your good stat by X, but if the dump stat's x is 1 and the good stat is 4... where are you going to find the other 3 points...