The Whip
While I railed against the spiked chain, there's yet another impractical weapon in D&D that I really like, but it stinks mechanically. The whip is great thematically - just watch Indiana Jones and his great feats with the whip!
However, in D&D the fact that it only does non-lethal damage against most foes stinks. Let the whip do lethal damage please! The magic item compendium has a couple of magic whips which do lethal damage, but I'd like to see the normal whip weapon also be allowed to do it.
One last point, I once read a great story about an eskimo weilding a whip who could flick cigarette's out of people's mouths, hunt caribou, and once fought off a wolf with it too!
(Nevermind that the story about the eskimo was all made up and I didn't realize it for months. Until I found that out it was like believing in Santa Claus and whips were just downright cool)
Hunt caribou?!
Having been whipped (non sexual, bull whip) before, I can see the whip not doing squat in combat as far as straight up damage, but the psychological effect it has is worth noting. It's one thing to tell yourself it's only pain, and you can work through it, and another entierly if you know just what it will feel like if they land another blow with the thing. Also, there should be a little more as far as Indi style whip action. Swinging from rafters, lashing weapons out of peoples hands, all that good stuf.
Also, having had a whip snap near my head before, specifically right next to my ear. Even if I knew someone had the skill to snatch a cigarette out of my mouth I wouldn't be game without ear protection. That might be something to add in too, a deafening attack.
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The whip should be cooler than it is. But non-lethal damage is about right. The reason is that the whip lashes and tears surface flesh. You aren't going to die from that. You will hurt like hell, but not die. To do lethal damage the weapon should be able to penetrate organs, break bones and crush organs, or do massive tissue damage causing internal bleeding. The whip does none of those.
I would add something along the lines of allowing it to disable someone who has been whipped due to pain (Will or Fort save to resist), swing on it and should get a MASSIVE disarm bonus at least +4. You do get to trip with it and threaten area, so not too bad there. The armor making it do no damage makes sense.
Really I would just add something to make it cooler for swinging and such (+2 to swing).
BTW why on earth were you whipped with a Bull Whip? You know someone had to ask.
Perhaps the whip should allow you to make a free intimidate check with a successful hit. There is something about a whip...
I would go even further and say creatures of animal intelligence or lower should be panicked on a failed check.
I could also see it granting occasional bonuses to acrobatics checks if the DM determines there is something to swing off but that's more situational and much tougher to rule.
The whip should be cooler than it is. But non-lethal damage is about right...
That's kind of funny because if I had to choose between getting hit by a whip and a spiked chain, I'd pick the chain. The chain would be moving so much slower than the whip, I just can't see it doing much at all in combat.
(I can't see the whip doing much either, but dang it if the spike chain is a viable weapon then so should the whip!)
The whip should be cooler than it is.
The problem with the whip isn't that it deals nonlethal damage, but rather that targets with a +1 or greater armor bonus or a +3 or greater natural armor bonus are unaffected.
Nonlethal damage is fine, it's the whip-immunity that needs to go.
Perhaps the whip should allow you to make a free intimidate check with a successful hit. There is something about a whip...
As for psychological terror... how is getting smacked by whip any more terrifying than getting shot in the abdomen with an arrow or smashed across the face by a flail? Also, that logic stops applying when you start dealing with non-humanoid monsters. The Kraken probably doesn't care that you're attacking it with a whip.
-Matt
It should be noted that the whip has been used to hunt small game. There is even accounts of a inuit named Simon Tookoome having killed caribou with it.
It should be noted that the whip has been used to hunt small game. There is even accounts of a inuit named Simon Tookoome having killed caribou with it.
Ok, that was the story I read which I thought was bogus later. Anyway, if you can kill a caribou with a whip it should be allowed to do lethal damage like any other weapon.
As for psychological terror... how is getting smacked by whip any more terrifying than getting shot in the abdomen with an arrow or smashed across the face by a flail? Also, that logic stops applying when you start dealing with non-humanoid monsters. The Kraken probably doesn't care that you're attacking it with a whip.
I think a whip is much more intimidating than it's actual physical damage. The speed, plus the sound... that said. You are probably right that it doesn't make sense to add to the rules.
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Isn't there a lethal damage version of the whip called the whip dagger? I think it was in one of the splatbooks. That might work for your campaign.
Hmm, since the whip dagger isn't open content, maybe we can develop something to fill it's niche. Maybe a barbed whip that deals lethal damage on a strike, and can deal lethal damage when used in a grapple?
Or maybe this can be addressed by a feat - say Whip Mastery, which give you the option of inflicting lethal damage with a standard whip and ignore the armor-prevents-damage restriction. (Sorry, I know we're past the feat section, but it just hit me).
A standard whip inflicting lethal damage might not be totally realistic, but in a world of orc double axes and gnomish hook hammers, it may not be too far out there.
For inspiration, take a look at the movie The Rundown, starring Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson. He faces three whip wielders, one of whom uses two whips and uses a whip to crack a table in half.
Thanks for reading.
A standard whip inflicting lethal damage might not be totally realistic, but in a world of orc double axes and gnomish hook hammers, it may not be too far out there.
Yes, but in a world where the unrealistic abomination called the spiked chain is the best weapon in the game we can afford to have a whip do lethal damage(or get rid of the armor immunity and have it keep doing nonlethal). I could live with a feat to allow it, but I'd rather just have the whip be a weapon that's useable.
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The whip should be cooler than it is. But non-lethal damage is about right...That's kind of funny because if I had to choose between getting hit by a whip and a spiked chain, I'd pick the chain. The chain would be moving so much slower than the whip, I just can't see it doing much at all in combat.
(I can't see the whip doing much either, but dang it if the spike chain is a viable weapon then so should the whip!)
OK when I was in Highschool many many centuries ago, I had a length of chain in my locker or that I wore "as a belt." I used to get into a LOT of fights in school (razor wire around the 10 foot tall fence around the school).
I can attest to the damage a chain can do. One fight a guy pulled out a butterfly knife so I took my "belt" off. There were no blades attached but I beat the snot out of that guy with a chain. You see a length of chain coming at your face and you think twice about getting close.
Now the armor that makes a whip useless makes sense to a degree. If the whip cannot get to your exposed flesh it just isn't going to do anything. However, unless you wear armor on ALL parts everywhere there will be flesh exposed (or just plain clothes).
If I had my leather jacket on (it's a biker's jacket) I'd would risk a whip over a chain.
Regardless, since a Sai gets +4 to disarm I would say a whip should have at least +4 to disarm, +2 to trip, +2 to climb and swing checks, +4 to intimidate checks, and +10 to just plain cool looking checks.
Oh, and the Succubus needs to have Whip as a main weapon...
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I know of a professional whip thrower, met him twice, got to watch him work at his B&B.
To prove a point to a SCA friend of his, he put a metal tip in place of the popper, then put said tip -through- his SCA rated helmet.
So I'm all for the whip doing lethal damage.
OK when I was in Highschool many many centuries ago, I had a length of chain in my locker or that I wore "as a belt." I used to get into a LOT of fights in school (razor wire around the 10 foot tall fence around the school).
I can attest to the damage a chain can do. One fight a guy pulled out a butterfly knife so I took my "belt" off. There were no blades attached but I beat the snot out of that guy with a chain. You see a length of chain coming at your face and you think twice about getting close.
Unless you're a very large guy, there's no way the chain you beat him with had 10' reach. And I doubt you used it 2 handed. The chain you used may as well have been a club.
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Unless you're a very large guy, there's no way the chain you beat him with had 10' reach. And I doubt you used it 2 handed. The chain you used may as well have been a club.OK when I was in Highschool many many centuries ago, I had a length of chain in my locker or that I wore "as a belt." I used to get into a LOT of fights in school (razor wire around the 10 foot tall fence around the school).
I can attest to the damage a chain can do. One fight a guy pulled out a butterfly knife so I took my "belt" off. There were no blades attached but I beat the snot out of that guy with a chain. You see a length of chain coming at your face and you think twice about getting close.
It was not 10' about 3 feet or so. And I used it sort of two handed. Right hand (main hand) held it and lashed out with it, the left hand grabbed it as it was jerked back to me, so I could maintain control.
and yeah you could call it a club in D&D terms. Since I didn't spend a feat to learn to use a two-handed chain :)
In essence the point I wanted to make is that a chain can be an effective weapon and do some damage. I just imagine what I could have done had I had proper training and a chain that was designed for combat.
On topic to the whip, I had never considered a metal tip for a whip before. yeah, put a metal tip on it and I can easily see it doing lethal damage. OK, in the description it could read "spend a full round to change the tip of the whip to a metal blade for lethal damage." I can accept that easily, AND it is cool! Maybe even upping the damage die somewhat d8 or d10 sounds decent to me- all that momentum behind that blade...
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People often forget or don't know that a whip crack is it breaking the speed of sound, and that with a steel tip the size of a medium sized nail it can cleanly penetrate at least 1/4th an inch of steel.
Well I know the whip was the first man-made object to break the sound barrier. But yeah that metal tip would do some real damage.
On topic to the whip, I had never considered a metal tip for a whip before. yeah, put a metal tip on it and I can easily see it doing lethal damage. OK, in the description it could read "spend a full round to change the tip of the whip to a metal blade for lethal damage." I can accept that easily, AND it is cool! Maybe even upping the damage die somewhat d8 or d10 sounds decent to me- all that momentum behind that blade...
I'd be happy with just d6 damage and no armor immunity.
Unless you're a very large guy, there's no way the chain you beat him with had 10' reach. And I doubt you used it 2 handed. The chain you used may as well have been a club.
and
Yes, but in a world where the unrealistic abomination called the spiked chain is the best weapon in the game...
Eric...
Please. We know you are on a personal crusade against the spiked chain, but could you please keep it to the Spiked Chain thread?
-Matt
Please. We know you are on a personal crusade against the spiked chain, but could you please keep it to the Spiked Chain thread?
I'm always happy to see people bad-mouthing spiked chains, even if it's in the "Heathansson loves smurfs" thread.
I agree that the arguments regarding surface tissue damage vrs bone breaking, organ rupturing, and the like are true, I also look at it this way. Those are crits. Many hits from any weapon is still surface damage, skin, shallow muscle, and so on. A whip can do just as much, it just has a limit on what its crits can do.
Of course, in my games, I solve the problem by having the distinction between regular whips and tipped whips. On both I removed the armor restrictions, as the abstract nature of D&D combat means a skilled fighter can thread a whip-crack through a visor slit on a helmet, or around a throat, or right onto the soft part of the armor plated beast (Farm experience taught me that while a stubborn horse might ignore a whip on the flanks, they tend to be less likely to ignore a crack on the inner thigh). To me, HP is a representation of your ability and willingness to keep fighting before your body and mind break rank and fall into unconciousness, so the psychological effects of a whip apply in that regards.
A regular whip is as normal, with an ability to use it to "push" an animal, doing no damage but prompting the creature to make a will save VRs your attack roll or move in a direction you designate away from you. Attempting to do this to multiple creatures imposes a -2 penalty to your roll (or +2 to their save, whichever you prefer) for each creature after the first.
A tipped whip deals lethal damage, and can not be used to do subdual damage, even with the -4.
Both whips can be used to disarm, trip, or as a grappling hook. Attack rolls can substitute for Use Rope checks, if you're not using pathfinder skills.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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A tipped whip deals lethal damage, and can not be used to do subdual damage, even with the -4.Both whips can be used to disarm, trip, or as a grappling hook. Attack rolls can substitute for Use Rope checks, if you're not using pathfinder skills.
Disagree with this. In the hands of an expert (and believe me, watching Skip he is an expert) the whip can do subdual damage by not hitting with the tip. Heck this guy could wrap the tip of the whip around someone's outstretched finger w/o it hurting.
My issue isn't that a whip deals nonlethal... it's that the whip is completely useless except for CMB against anything with an armor bonus or natural armor bonus. In d20, a "hit" indicates having bypassed or found a chink in someone's armor. It's the dagger slipping into a joint in someone's full plate. It's the spear penetrating someone's armpit. So why is the whip ignored in this sense? A whip can wrap around someone's neck for instance. Or the tip can hit them in the eye.
I'm for leaving the whip nonlethal (unless perhaps adding a magical /lethal/ weapon property) but letting it hit "anyone". Perhaps exclude creatures immune to sneak attack, like oozes.
I was under the impression that you could justify having a whip deal lethal damage by weaving metal bearings into the plaits of the whip or adding a metal tip to the end. Can't you also turn the handle of a whip into a crude club using these techniques as well?
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Couple things:
I love the Arms and Equipment Guide Whip-Daggers and Mighty Whip Daggers, and we frequently use them in our games instead of whips.
Second, isn't there a traditional Sikh weapon that's like a whip, but made out of razor wire? I remember reading it being used in a book but don't remember what it was called.
I just generally add a "razor silk whip" in if a player wants it. The whip-dagger just never really made sense or did it for me... part of the reason I love the bladed scarf is as a replacement for the whip.
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I just generally add a "razor silk whip" in if a player wants it. The whip-dagger just never really made sense or did it for me... part of the reason I love the bladed scarf is as a replacement for the whip.
bladded scarf is very different weapon... we really really need a decent whip for use in combat
or how is supposed a Calistrian Cleric be effective enough with her Goddess' favored weapon
Couple things:
I love the Arms and Equipment Guide Whip-Daggers and Mighty Whip Daggers, and we frequently use them in our games instead of whips.
Second, isn't there a traditional Sikh weapon that's like a whip, but made out of razor wire? I remember reading it being used in a book but don't remember what it was called.
You might be thinking of the urumi.
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Couple things:
I love the Arms and Equipment Guide Whip-Daggers and Mighty Whip Daggers, and we frequently use them in our games instead of whips.
Second, isn't there a traditional Sikh weapon that's like a whip, but made out of razor wire? I remember reading it being used in a book but don't remember what it was called.
It's in the Arms and Equipment Guide! Couldn't remember where I had seen the whip dagger before. Good catch.