I agree completely with Eric (OP) on this. The spiked chain is by far the most over-powered weapon. Not only does it have the most bang for its buck unilatteraly, it's the best over-all exotic weapon, too.
I'm not sold on the fact that we should be comparing the Spiked Chain to other Exotic Weapons, but I think we should be comparing it to other "REACH" Weapons.
Finally Finesse may as you stipulate be a trap....since the CMB is strength based - BUT there's a feat to overcome that restriction too - allowing DEX to surrogate for the modifier in the CMB check.
Exactly how many feats are you willing to spend in order to get one weapon to function correctly?
I personally didn't go the Disarm route with my one attempt at this sillyness, I went 'Trip-Whirlwind-AoOs-STR-based', which is 7 feats. I also had Combat Reflexes and Deft Opportunist. (Yet another feat tree, revolving around AoOs.)
I've purged the need to play a Castlevania-ish character out of my system, playing "Goalie" for our squishy party members was fun, but doubt I will ever use that weapon again short of revisting that campaign.
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I agree completely with Eric (OP) on this. The spiked chain is by far the most over-powered weapon. Not only does it have the most bang for its buck unilatteraly, it's the best over-all exotic weapon, too.I'm not sold on the fact that we should be comparing the Spiked Chain to other Exotic Weapons, but I think we should be comparing it to other "REACH" Weapons.
...and if it were a martial weapon, I would agree with you. But since it requires the same amount of 'attention' to be trained in it as any other exotic weapon, it's just silly not to compare it to the other like-classified weapons
Robert
Robert I agree with some of what you have to say, but you cannot have it both ways. It is not a good arguement to say its no big deal that spike chain needs just one more feat, but its a huge deal that you need another feat to rapid reload a repeating crossbow. That being said, to your assertion that weapon finesse should not be usable in combo with power attack, I completely agree its plain rediculous on all levels that its possible to do that. Also I am firmly in your camp when you say that the repeating x-bow and Bastard sword suck as exotics. But the solution shouldnt be to nerf the chain it should be to make the others better or call them martial. I think the heart of the matter is that 3.5 placed alot of weapons that are from other cultures or seem unique into exotic as a function of their flavor text. When really it should be done as a function of a tangible game advantage they provide, coupled with the special training needed to take advantage of these unique properties. The chain is ideal how it is, what needs to happen is that abilities need to be added to the other exotics to make them clearly superior to martial. Like your longbow vs crossbow example illustrates, that is not the case right now.
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Robert I agree with some of what you have to say, but you cannot have it both ways. It is not a good arguement to say its no big deal that spike chain needs just one more feat, but its a huge deal that you need another feat to rapid reload a repeating crossbow.
What I was saying is that both the repeater and the chain need a feat to use them with proficiency. The chain as is with that one feat can be use at it's peak performance without anything more. The repeater still does not get around the need to reload that a normal crossbow needs - it just allows a few shots before hand. To make the repeater have any real benefit, it needs Rapid Reload also; and it STILL requires a move action to reload (heavy repeater), thus limiting it to one attack per round. Meanwhile the chain is able to be taken full advantage of and make full attacks against several targets every round.
Other feats make the chain BETTER - such as Weapon Finess (for a Dex based), or Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Combat Reflexes, etc.
But thats no different from saying other feats will help the repeater be better; Zen Archery (for a cleric), Point Blank, Precise Shot, Sharp Shooter etc.
But my point was that the repeater wasn't even truly that good without the second feat.
That being said, to your assertion that weapon finesse should not be usable in combo with power attack, I completely agree its plain rediculous on all levels that its possible to do that. Also I am firmly in your camp when you say that the repeating x-bow and Bastard sword suck as exotics. But the solution shouldnt be to nerf the chain it should be to make the others better or call them martial.
As I said - I feel both are needed. The chain is too powerful and could use a little nerfing. The other weapons are not good enough and need some lovin.
Robert
And the Crossbows need to just go to Martial Weapons.
Throwing any sense of verisimilitude ruight out the window: the fact that they were easy to use, compared with longbows, is the only reason that crossbows were ever used, historically. Unless you want composite longbows to be Exotic weapons?
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And the Crossbows need to just go to Martial Weapons.Throwing any sense of verisimilitude ruight out the window: the fact that they were easy to use, compared with longbows, is the only reason that crossbows were ever used, historically. Unless you want composite longbows to be Exotic weapons?
Oops my bad :) Simple Weapons :)
sorry, and good catch :)
Oh! Oh! Oh! Another thread about weapon types (slash/blunt/pierce) reminded me of this little gem, so I'll post it here also.
According to the "written" rules, a Spiked Chain works underwater, even with reach, because it is piecring!! (As does a Morning Star) Of course all common sense completely destroys that rule, but I thought it funny and would be well suited for this thread, lol.
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And once again I must say that it is not that the spiked chain is too good. It is that the other options aren't good enough. Tripmachine with 1.5 damage from Str on attacks is among the few ways to make melees rock, at least in their own niche. And no, the guisarme is not as good as the spiked chain - Short Haft does not allow you to retain all normal benefits. (Weapon Finesse does not matter, however - you should always, always prioritize Strength for a tripfighter.)
I agree about flavor, though. I can stomach some sort of a blade on a chain, but the current spiked chain just looks stupid.
Yeah, I agree. Cheese weapon, but necessary mechanics that are unfortunately otherwise absent (although we do now have Lunge, which is a Good Thing).
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I'd personally want to get rid of 2DX weapon damage (including Falchion and Greatsword), and instead "round it" to the most suitable die type, i.e. 1D8 in case of the Spiked Chain.True. I remember being thrilled when they got rid of the broadsword, with it's 2-7 damage range.
IIRC broadsword inflicted 2D4 base damage, and 1D6+1 only against larger creatures...
can be used as a double-weapon for two-weapon fighting.I have seen no way for a spiked chain to be usable with TWF, and would not allow that anyway even if it was possible.
The 3.0 Sword & Fist had the Master of Chains prestige class. One of the class abilities allowed the master of chains to use a spiked chain as either a two-handed reach weapon or a double weapon without reach.
As a house rule, I've allowed the 3.5 Exotic Weapon Master (Complete Warrior) to choose it as an Exotic Weapon Stunt. Considering that the Flurry of Strikes stunt specifically includes the spiked chain, I'd say it's a comparable option.
Its not nearly as huge as you might think,as it really will only cost you on attacks of opportunity...Having reach to use for attacks of opportunity is the main issue I have with a weapon that can attack adjacent creatures, trip, gains +2 to disarm, is finessable, and has reach. If the ability to threaten creatures that weren't adjacent to the weilder were removed I would consider it a balanced weapon.I don't think it costing a swift action is a big deal honestly. The easiest fix in the whole world is 1gp away... Spiked Gauntlets.
Spiked Gauntlets don't threaten without a Ready action. Which is little different from needing an action to switch between reach and "short haft."
Spiked Gauntlets don't threaten without a Ready action. Which is little different from needing an action to switch between reach and "short haft."
When did this happen? Is it a PF thing I'm not aware of?
Anyhow, Spiked chains are just good enough. Other exotic weapons need to be brought up to its power level.
Spiked Gauntlets don't threaten without a Ready action. Which is little different from needing an action to switch between reach and "short haft."
When did this happen? Is it a PF thing I'm not aware of?
Anyhow, Spiked chains are just good enough. Other exotic weapons need to be brought up to its power level.
If you are wielding a (two-handed) reach weapon you can't threaten an adjacent tile with your spiked gaunlets without a ready action. That ready action would unthreaten the reach tiles, because you've let go or seriously changed your grip with the gauntleted hand.
I wouldn't mind seeing the spiked chain and other whip like weapons such as, well the whip, become weapons of individual focus. What I mean is that the spiked chained once it hits a target you can then pull and drag them around much like the net but you also do damage continuesly. you can then lead around your opponent and pull them down or maybe into other foes if you are lucky and while it'd be a very effective weapon it would only be truely powerful against one foe.
Considering the reach and damage of the weapon it'd be a deterant for enemies whom try to surround a character with a spiked-chain, and then it becomes a game of which enemy has the balls to take a hit for the team.
Thats the kind of weapon I'd always imagined the spiked-chain to be.