Hello,
I read that with their prayer attack, Red Mantis can perform a coup de grace. In fact if I well understand, they make like a fascinate" with a DC15, and to success their coup de grace, they must succeed in a 3 round of concentration, but how have I to do it? What is the DC for this roll? And each round they succeed their concentration check, the PC doesn't able to move until the attack (except if he's attacked).
To finish, I roll the damage done, and if it doesn't kill the PC, he must succeed a roll DC 10+damage or he's dead, isn't it?
Thanks a lot!
The victim gets only one save. If a danger other than the Mantis approaches, they get another save.
There is no Concentration check needed for the Mantis unless they take damage, are being violently jostled, or the other conditions listed under Concentration.
Yes, the Coup attempt is then Fort save of DC10 + damage done in the attack. The Coup is an automatic critical.
The victim gets only one save. If a danger other than the Mantis approaches, they get another save.
There is no Concentration check needed for the Mantis unless they take damage, are being violently jostled, or the other conditions listed under Concentration.
Yes, the Coup attempt is then Fort save of DC10 + damage done in the attack. The Coup is an automatic critical.
Not too cool for the PC :-) Only one save (the first one).
But if the mantis is attacked, what is the difficulty for hie concentration (spellcraft) check to carry on his attack even if he's taking damage?Another question: Knowing that it's a coup de grace, does the PC has a opportunity attack (like for a classical coup de grace) or not because of his fascination?
DC to maintain Concentration when attacked is 10 + Damage Dealt.
No, the PC is helpless so can't make an opportunity attack.
Yes, it's a very deadly ability: If the mantis catches a PC alone. If the PCs are in a group, then the mantis probably can't maintain concentration while the rest of the party beats on him. Or, the fascination automatically ends if a PC takes an action to slap the victim out of the trance.
DC to maintain Concentration when attacked is 10 + Damage Dealt.
Thanks, but it's difficult to know the DC because of the variability for the damage which will be done, so?
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Thanks, but it's difficult to know the DC because of the variability for the damage which will be done, so?DC to maintain Concentration when attacked is 10 + Damage Dealt.
This is the damage dealt to the mantis by the other characters while the mantis is concentrating. I believe they only make one check for all damage taken during the round, but I don't have that info at work to check on.
But if the mantis is attacked, what is the difficulty for hie concentration (spellcraft) check to carry on his attack even if he's taking damage?
If the Mantis is attacked, the fascination should be automatically broken. The "fascinated" condition says that "Any obvious threat [..] automatically breaks the effect". Presumably a fight breaking out in front of you qualifies as a threat!
The victim gets a new save each time a threat approaches (other than the red mantis) the victim. I wouldn't call someone attacking the mantis as "approaching" the victim.
The victim gets a new save each time a threat approaches (other than the red mantis) the victim. I wouldn't call someone attacking the mantis as "approaching" the victim.
Which part of my direct quote do you disagree with? :-)
In my opinion, a fight breaking out right in front of me is an "obvious threat". Maybe if someone was sniping at the Mantis Warrior from a distance, it wouldn't be as obvious, I suppose.
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Which part of my direct quote do you disagree with? :-)In my opinion, a fight breaking out right in front of me is an "obvious threat". Maybe if someone was sniping at the Mantis Warrior from a distance, it wouldn't be as obvious, I suppose.
A threat to the mantis does not necessarily mean a threat to the PC.... The examples in the SRD all point to the threat's target having to be the PC for the affect to break.
A threat to the mantis does not necessarily mean a threat to the PC.... The examples in the SRD all point to the threat's target having to be the PC for the affect to break.
I think we have a different definition of "obvious threat" (YMMV, and all that). If, in real life, a knife fight was taking place right in front of me, I'd feel a trifle threatened. Obviously. :-)
At any rate, note that aiming a ranged weapon at the fascinated party automatically ends the fascination -- no ifs, ands, or buts. So even if your DM rules that attacking the Mantis Assassin doesn't automatically work, you can always point a bow at your buddy with 100% chance of success.
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A threat to the mantis does not necessarily mean a threat to the PC.... The examples in the SRD all point to the threat's target having to be the PC for the affect to break.I think we have a different definition of "obvious threat" (YMMV, and all that). If, in real life, a knife fight was taking place right in front of me, I'd feel a trifle threatened. Obviously. :-)
About 50% of people would be frightened., the others would feel a stronger emotion - be it anger,or fanaticism (think a schoolyard fight: some go get the teacher, some join in, some sit there and root them on.)
Creative Director
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The point of the Red Mantis prayer attack is that it's meant to be used on lone targets. It's a bit more deadly than the standard assassin attack against lone targets, but against targets with friends, it's more or less useless. A mantis probably shouldn't/wouldn't even try it against a PC who's got friends or is in a public place, as a result. However the rules are interpreted, it's best to interpret them in a way that supports this design goal.
Which part of my direct quote do you disagree with? :-)
The part where you start using the rules for a Bard's Fascinate ability to decide how this works. While Prayer Attack uses the word "fascinate", that doesn't mean it works like the Fascinate ability.
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The part where you start using the rules for a Bard's Fascinate ability to decide how this works. While Prayer Attack uses the word "fascinate", that doesn't mean it works like the Fascinate ability.Which part of my direct quote do you disagree with? :-)
fascinate as he quoted is a condition, not an ability
fascinate as he quoted is a condition, not an abilityThe part where you start using the rules for a Bard's Fascinate ability to decide how this works. While Prayer Attack uses the word "fascinate", that doesn't mean it works like the Fascinate ability.Which part of my direct quote do you disagree with? :-)
Here's the description from the SRD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fascinated
The point of the Red Mantis prayer attack is that it's meant to be used on lone targets. It's a bit more deadly than the standard assassin attack against lone targets, but against targets with friends, it's more or less useless. A mantis probably shouldn't/wouldn't even try it against a PC who's got friends or is in a public place, as a result. However the rules are interpreted, it's best to interpret them in a way that supports this design goal.
Thanks james, you're wright (as usual)a such deadly attack for the PC but a so consuming attack for the red mantis knowing that they have to be concentrated on them victims, it's clear that they won't use this attack during a fight against more than one foe!
Thanks a lot!
fascinate as he quoted is a condition, not an ability
I stand corrected.
Shouldn't "fascinate" be in italics though to denote the condition?
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Creative Director
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fascinate as he quoted is a condition, not an abilityI stand corrected.
Shouldn't "fascinate" be in italics though to denote the condition?
Nope; italics are used to indicate spells, magic items, and spell-like abilities, never conditions. In the case of fascinate, that gets weird because there's a bard spell-like ability called fascinate. That bard ability should have probably been called something else to prevent such confusion.
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Sorry to continue the topic, but during A History of Ashes, when there are 4 mantis assassins waiting to ambush the party, would you say it's legit if 3 of them cast hold person on 3 of the party members, and the last assassins begins the prayer attack on the only one that isn't held? Basically, would the red mantis assassin still use his prayer attack on a person with allies present, if he knew that the other allies could be temporarily "occupied"?
I don't see why not. Sounds like a cool fight: character rushing around trying to snap the rest of the party out of it, other Mantis' trying to keep him away.
That does bring up an interesting question for me: If Characters A, B, and C are held; the Red Mantis is approaching; does Character D know who the Mantis is focusing on?
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That does bring up an interesting question for me: If Characters A, B, and C are held; the Red Mantis is approaching; does Character D know who the Mantis is focusing on?
Well, presumably, Character D is "fascinated" by the prayer attack. The way I was intending to run the scenario was essentially have the mantis assassins hiding up on the sealing with their spider climb. 3 of them would cast hold person on 3 of the PCs (although, this is questionable, since apparently they only have one 2nd level spell per day, which they've presumably used for Cat's Grace), while the last one would start his Prayer Attack on the last PC. The hold persons would last 3 rounds, since they're level 3 assassins (1 round/level for hold person), which is exactly how long the prayer attack takes. What I'm wondering though, is during those 3 rounds of fascinating, can the assassin gradually start moving down toward his target to deliver the coup de grace? Or must he stand (on the ceiling) concentrating the whole time?
Sorry to continue the topic, but during A History of Ashes, when there are 4 mantis assassins waiting to ambush the party, would you say it's legit if 3 of them cast hold person on 3 of the party members, and the last assassins begins the prayer attack on the only one that isn't held? Basically, would the red mantis assassin still use his prayer attack on a person with allies present, if he knew that the other allies could be temporarily "occupied"?
Yes. Yes he would. And hopefully said character can make his save, because he's a goner otherwise. Of course, the held characters are pretty screwed too, since they can do a good old fashioned coup de gras on them as well.
I wasn't very clear: Say A & B are held, C is fascinated, and D is free to act. Does D know that the assasin is fascinating C and can go shake him out of it? Or does he just see three unmoving companions?
As for moving in for the final blow, yes you can single move and still concentrate.
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I wasn't very clear: Say A & B are held, C is fascinated, and D is free to act. Does D know that the assasin is fascinating C and can go shake him out of it? Or does he just see three unmoving companions?
My guess is, character D would have to do a quick spot/perception check to notice what C is fascinated by (presumably, the mantis assassin is hiding somewhere in the shadows as he's doing the prayer attack). If he succeeds, then character D can do whatever he want; either shake D out of it, or interrupt the assassin's prayer attack.
My guess is, character D would have to do a quick spot/perception check to notice what C is fascinated by (presumably, the mantis assassin is hiding somewhere in the shadows as he's doing the prayer attack). If he succeeds, then character D can do whatever he want; either shake D out of it, or interrupt the assassin's prayer attack.
In 3.5 I think that this would be a standard Sense Motive check (DC 25). I'm not sure how that translates to PFRPG.
I wasn't very clear: Say A & B are held, C is fascinated, and D is free to act. Does D know that the assasin is fascinating C and can go shake him out of it? Or does he just see three unmoving companions?
My take is that being fascinated doesn't freeze all of your muscles; I think it should be easy to distinguish between being fascinated and being paralysed.
(presumably, the mantis assassin is hiding somewhere in the shadows as he's doing the prayer attack)
I don't think you can do a prayer attack while hidden; the victim has to see it.
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Creative Director
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I wasn't very clear: Say A & B are held, C is fascinated, and D is free to act. Does D know that the assasin is fascinating C and can go shake him out of it? Or does he just see three unmoving companions?My take is that being fascinated doesn't freeze all of your muscles; I think it should be easy to distinguish between being fascinated and being paralysed.
(presumably, the mantis assassin is hiding somewhere in the shadows as he's doing the prayer attack)I don't think you can do a prayer attack while hidden; the victim has to see it.
Correct; it's like hypnotizing your foe but with your swords. If your target can't see you doing a prayer attack, you can't use the attack against him.
Stupid question but does a barbarian still take sneak attack damage in this instance? I say yes as he's basically helpless.