I understand why the Thaumaturgist, Blackguard and Hierophant where left out, however with all those missing the only prestige class that has appeal for divine casters is Loremaster... and it's not that appealing either. I think this would be a great area for adding a small amount of new content to the game so that in the beginning there is a choice for all base classes to go a different route.
With that in mind I present the following idea to be expanded upon.
Divine Channeller
Prerequisites:
Feats: Selective Channelling, Extra Turning, Improved Turning
Skills: Knowledge(religion) 5 Ranks
Special: Channel Energy 4d6
HD: d8
BAB: Average
Fort: Good
Ref: Poor
Will: Good
Ten Levels
1 --
2 -- Widen Burst
3 -- Channel Spell (1st level spells)
4 -- Awesome Channelling
5 -- Ability Channelling
6 -- Channel Spell (2nd level spells)
7 -- Maximize Channelling
8 --
9 -- Channel Spell (3rd level spells)
10 -- Channel Life/Destruction
Spellcasting does not advance.
Channel Energy Every level of Divine Channeller gives the character another channelling attempt per day and an extra d6 of channelling energy.
Widen Burst As a swift action spend an extra channelling attempt to widen the next use of your channel energy to 60 ft instead of 30.
Channel Spell As a swift action before a channelling attempt you may expend a spell to affect everyone affected by your channelling energy attempt. This spell must have a spell level no higher than 1st and a target other than self, any save throws for the spell are still made after any save throws for the channel energy attempt are made.
Awesome Channelling Choose one aspect of your alignment, everyone that shares that aspect with you is inspired when they see you channelling energy gaining a + 2 morale bonus to attack rolls, save throws, and skill checks for a number of rounds equal to your class level, everyone that has an opposite alignment to the part you choosen must make a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your class level + your Cha Mod) or be shaken for a number of rounds equal to your class level.
Ability Channelling You may give up any number of d6's from your channel energy attempt to heal an equal amount of ability damage if you channel positive energy or cause an equal amount of ability damage if you channel negative energy. You must choose which stat this affects at the time you channel energy. If this deals damage the targets get a will save for half damage still. (i.e. if a character with 7d6 of energy channelling used this ability they could give up 4d6 and heal 3d6 damage plus 4 points of ability damage)
Maximize Channelling As a swift action spend two additional channelling attempts before channelling energy to maximize the amount this use affects.
I have always been a fan of deity specific PrCs. I thought they worked very well for the Realms
I have always been a fan of deity specific PrCs. I thought they worked very well for the Realms
Yep thats where it belongs in a setting based source book. Fun though
I have always been a fan of deity specific PrCs. I thought they worked very well for the RealmsYep thats where it belongs in a setting based source book. Fun though
absolutely, have them in the chronicles and companions, not in the RPG book
OP> This was, IMO, the biggest drawback to 3.x core: divine casters had lousy PrC choices. 3.5 was a bit better than 3.0, but arcane casters still got more (and better) options. The deity write-ups in the PF adventure paths have some interesting and appropriate PrCs, though.
Please make a deity specific Prc for clerics/monks of Irori!
It's not a PrC, but below is a feat I created that may meet your needs:
Disciple of Irori
Your study of the teachings of the Master of Masters has allowed you to improve both your ability to channel divine power and fight unarmed.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Turn/Rebuke Undead (Channel Energy in PFRPG), must worship Irori
Benefit: Your cleric and monk levels stack for determining your unarmed damage, your Turn/Rebuke Undead (Channel Energy) ability, and your cleric domain powers. In addition, you can multiclass freely between the cleric and monk classes. You must remain lawful to continue advancing as a monk. You still take all applicable multiclassing penalties (3.5 only).
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That absolute coolest Divine Prestigue calss I have ever seen was the Knight of the Raven, from Exp. to Castle Ravenloft. I would really like to see a rendition of that.
I would like a Warpriest, maybe with better (but not full) spellcasting progression, an actual necromancer/negative energy specialist/shadow priest, and a Heirophant that gets spellcasting.
I understand why the Thaumaturgist, Blackguard and Hierophant where left out, however with all those missing the only prestige class that has appeal for divine casters is Loremaster... and it's not that appealing either.
So then they're in pretty much the same crappy shape as the arcane casters?
Nice Prc the channeler, although it could use 1/2 caster level progression
I really hope your joking. Are you trying to make this class useless like the arcane classes they've published?
I'm pretty sure they are referring to giving it spellcasting abilites at even levels as oppossed to the none it gets now. Useless?
Wow, my bad. I thought it granted full spellcasting. Without any spellcasting I don't view this class as even remotely worth playing or publishing.
There is no class ability I could ever see as worth 10 levels of spellcasting for a full caster class. Period.
Further, the loss of 10 levels of casting on the primary divine character is incredibly damaging to game balance, game theory, and actual play. The loss of all cleric spells of over 4th level to a party is beyond crippling. This means no Heal, no raise dead, break enchantment, no commune, no one to help the wizard with utility magic in general. No. just No to this class.
Do people even think before they come up with things like this? Do they every try plotting out sample characters at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, to see what they look like compared to a normal character in that role? I'm convinced they don't or half the prestige classes in the Pathfinder PDF wouldn't be in it and 90% of the halfbaked ideas out of homebrew designers wouldn't either.
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I agree. No or little spellcasting makes me not even look at a Prestige Class. In 3.5, I literally would invent a Divine ArchCleric before going into Heirophant more than 1 or 2 levels. It is that bad. Something I guess most WotC designers never concidered is that, your right, it hurts the party as a whole more than the player.
I agree. No or little spellcasting makes me not even look at a Prestige Class. In 3.5, I literally would invent a Divine ArchCleric before going into Heirophant more than 1 or 2 levels. It is that bad. Something I guess most WotC designers never concidered is that, your right, it hurts the party as a whole more than the player.
No, they started considering it much later. By Complete Mage some of them had begun to understand it. Thats why we got classes like the Abjurant Champion and Unseen Seer to replace or ease transitions into things like the Arcane Trickster and EK.
The problem with a lot of prestige class design was that it forgot that there are 4 roles in most parties that have to be filled.
The Beat Stick Is the guy that lays down a ton of damage in melee and soaks it up equally well. Its the fighter, barbarian, or cleric that power attacks you to death. He is necessary to bring down big stupid foes like Zombies, Golems, other Beat sticks, and even casters sometimes. He is the rock on which the party is built.
The God Is the guy that changes reality to make it better suited toward the party's victory. He changes reality to allow the Beat Stick to hit things better and get hit less often. He's the wizard. He debuffs, takes care of packs of low level foes with AoE's, splits up foes, delays enemies, and provides utility in the form of things like teleport. He's cool to watch and cool to play at higher levels if you enjoy that, but he is not the guy who gets beat up on or the guy who kills big foes without a lot of luck on his side.
The Cleric (Aka God 2) Keeps the Beat Stick beating things, everyone else alive, and undead on the run (well not so much the later anymore). His purpose is twofold. He stands in melee with the beat stick as a minor beat stick - given his highish hit points, decent BAB, personal buffs, and high AC - and he heals the beat stick and rest of the party with whatever is wrong with them. He also provides some utility magic so God doesn't have to carry all of it, allowing god to do something in combat.
The Sneaker These guys are nasty. Just plain nasty. They get the drop on foes and kill them before they can react using two weapon fighting, sneak attacks, and a high initiative (improved initiative should be one of your first feats). I've seen druids die without getting an action when these guys got the surprise round and acted first. They do the same to wizards. When that goes to hell they provide a flanker for the Beat Stick and continue to hit hard themselves. They are like the beat stick in that they are a major source of damage, but unlike him in that they can't take it and have to be careful. Out of combat they also help deal with social situations.
When prestige classes start to pull people away from their role the entire party suffers.
Beat Sticks that can't hit hard enough to hurt things or don't have enough hit points to take hits screw the party against powerful foes.
Gods (aka wizards) that don't have access to spells at the proper level or AT MOST a single level late screw the party against low level foes, anyone with status effects, against very tough encounters, and with utility magic.
Clerics that don't have access to the proper level spells to negate status attacks & regular attack or proper buffs and debuffs are problematic. Likewise with clerics that can't take a hit or hit for damage are problematic.
Sneakers that can't do enough damage when sneaking to bring down a foe are worthless. They become crappy beat sticks. The Shadowdancer is the obvious class for Sneakers in the Pathfinder beta. It's also the worst because it doesn't make them better at anything except hiding. Perhaps a single level of this class is worthwhile. Every other class feature blows.
Now it's possible for parties to have success without fulfilling all of these roles - it's just very unlikely. I like to think of it like a football team. You need good special teams, defense, a passing game, and a running game to win. The wizards are the passing game - high flying and flashy. They can win the game for you at the last minute but aren't your first choice. The beat sticks are the running game - they are your dependable solid choice in any situation. Clerics are defense. They help you when your team is down and sometimes provide offense of their own. Rogues are special teams - striking when you don't expect it and making life easier on everyone else by doing what they do. It isn't a perfect analogy but it's a decent one. Teams can win without good people in some of these positions - it just gets harder. They have to be much better at the other ones.
kind of sounds like controller, leader, striker and defender
kind of sounds like controller, leader, striker and defender
Sure. Like I said, by the end of 3.5 they were beginning to catch on, so it's no surprise they made it more clear in 4.0 that there were 4 roles that needed to be filled then they did in 3.5. Let's be clear though, they did their best to make it clear even in 3.5 that there were 4 roles and that without them you were in for a tough time. I remember disclaimers on a number of adventures that said something to that effect.
Lets also note that 3.5 and 4.0 play much differently, even with everyone sticking to their roles. One is a far more open ended system that lends itself much more freely to customization. That same system has a legitimate difference between classes and a far more lethal combat system.
Well as I pointed out in the original post this class is far from finished.
Adding half or 3/4 spell casting progression is a possible.
Right now every level you gain gives you another d6 to your channel energy and an additional use of your channel energy, so by level 10 in the PrC at minimum entry, you are level 17 with 14d6 on your channel energy 13 + Cha Mod a day.
Mainly I want to see what people would add to this and what they would take away.
For example: Most people have already said that at least 1/2 spell progression is a must.
However they haven't said if anything this gives is too good or needs upgraded, or could be broken by some combination of other abilities.
So... for the moment tack on 1/2 spell progression to this PrC, then what does it need or should lose?
Well as I pointed out in the original post this class is far from finished.
Adding half or 3/4 spell casting progression is a possible.
Right now every level you gain gives you another d6 to your channel energy and an additional use of your channel energy, so by level 10 in the PrC at minimum entry, you are level 17 with 14d6 on your channel energy 13 + Cha Mod a day.
Mainly I want to see what people would add to this and what they would take away.
For example: Most people have already said that at least 1/2 spell progression is a must.
However they haven't said if anything this gives is too good or needs upgraded, or could be broken by some combination of other abilities.
So... for the moment tack on 1/2 spell progression to this PrC, then what does it need or should lose?
Nothing. In fact I still probably wouldn't take levels in it. You're underestimating the incredible power of full casting and the hit you take in failing to fulfill your role within the party. All for... a few more uses of your channel positive energy? Let me find a post from another design board I frequent for you.
I am a 12 level cleric when it comes to channeling positive energy so that is 6d6, I have a Phylactery of Positive Channeling which adds 2d6.Class Ability wise I have
Improved Greater Channeling
and Maximize Channel 1/dayand Feat wise I have
Extra Channeling
Improved Channeling (increases the DC by 2)
Quicken Channeling
Selective Channeling (I can exclude a number of targets equal to my charisma mod from my radius)
and Turn (Evil) Outsider (Evil outsiders are subject to the damage but not the "flee")So we decided to try to convert stuff as literally as possible the first time.
Improved Greater Channeling essentially doubled my cleric level since that is pretty much what it does in 3.5 (so my channeling jumped from 8d6 to 16d6. But we did not increase the DC, the DC stayed the same)
and Quicken Channeling made it a swift actionAs a swift action i am healing my party an average of 56 points and excluding whichever living foes happen to have damage on them.
No one thought that was particularly overpowered.
Peter stewart in that case I bet you wouldn't take Eldritch knight or Arcane trickster, becuase of the caster level lose.
I understand fully what is given up when you lose caster levels the question is what is needed to balance this class, not why you wouldn't take it.
You don't just gain a few more uses of Channel energy... there is also what abouts to "meta channelling feats" and every level you gain another d6 to channelling.
That guy was using non-core stuff. While we should realize non-core is out there we can't exactly build around it from a design stand point.
I'm looking at what this class can do / needs. If full casting was added on to this PrC would you take it over cleric everytime? If so where is the balance point?
Peter stewart in that case I bet you wouldn't take Eldritch knight or Arcane trickster, becuase of the caster level lose.
I wouldn't take either because they are poorly designed classes that produce characters poorly suited to fulfill any role within a party. You became a crappy wizard & crappy fighter or a really crappy wizard & crappy rogue.
I understand fully what is given up when you lose caster levels the question is what is needed to balance this class, not why you wouldn't take it.
I think requiring several subpar feats and not advancing domain powers is rather painful. At most I'd lose 1 caster level at the first level. Becoming a one trick heal pony (who doesn't heal as well as most spells of higher level) isn't worth more then 1 caster level.
You don't just gain a few more uses of Channel energy... there is also what abouts to "meta channelling feats" and every level you gain another d6 to channelling.
Yes I noticed what you gain - my point it it isn't worth multiple caster levels. Channeling isn't that useful, particularly at higher levels when you face more then just hit point damage.
That guy was using non-core stuff. While we should realize non-core is out there we can't exactly build around it from a design stand point.
... You completely missed my point. Half a dozen of the best designers I know look at his channeling abilities - stronger at 12th level then your will grant - and didn't feel it was particularly overpowered. And he lost no caster levels. Extra healing abilities for the healer almost never break the game.
Take a look at the Radiant Servant of Pelor from Complete Divine. That's your benchmark healer class.
I'm looking at what this class can do / needs. If full casting was added on to this PrC would you take it over cleric everytime? If so where is the balance point?
First off, none of the pathfinder classes, with the possible exception of the sorcerer, are good enough that I'd pass up the prestige class options from other books. They've gotten closer, but they aren't that good.
If you have to make this class balanced against a 20 level cleric then losing 1 caster level is probably your best bet.
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As far as I have heard, it is not yet desided weither Cleric Prestige classes will or will not advance Domain Powers, (based of caster level), because there are nmo Divine Prestige Classes yet, they are not beginning to think of that part until they have to.
I did not notice the Channel advancement, I would definetly cut that back to the normal progression (+1d6 at each odd Level).
The idea of the increasing of the channelling is it replaces the spellcasting to a large degree. Even at level twenty using cleric 10/ This PrC 10 and an amulet of channelling energy you are only looking at 17d6. Using the maximize power available through this prestige class that's only 102 HP healed. Compared to Mass heal, which will do 200 HP, and all ability damage present it almost looks like a trap to me even as the initial designer.
The power could be used 17+ Cha Mod times a day minimum, however using any of the "Meta" abilites eats up extra uses, and healing extra stuff like ability damage still doesn't add up to some of the spells that would be normally available.
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The problem I see is that it means that Cleric has the potential to burn all their Channels up real fast, bypassing the idea that pathfinder is attempting to get all classes to be able to last more than a few fights. Plus, that is real damn powerful. Why would an evil cleric not just go around and nuke everyone. They could take out small/medium sized towns in like a week.
The problem I see is that it means that Cleric has the potential to burn all their Channels up real fast, bypassing the idea that pathfinder is attempting to get all classes to be able to last more than a few fights. Plus, that is real damn powerful. Why would an evil cleric not just go around and nuke everyone. They could take out small/medium sized towns in like a week.
Yup they could... at the levels they could do that they could also cast one of their many doomsday spells that they would have gotten if they had stayed in cleric for the full progression.
Half dozen of one six of the other. Also the corresponding spells to the abilities presented here are obtained at about the same levels.
how about a divine champion or divine seeker
While I appreciate the requests I don't do much with divine casters usually: This one was just to fill a generic gap in the Core PrCs. I doubt it will even be used (though I certainly don't mind if it is).
Most my work can be found Here .
personally I think it is too early to even consider making a Prc for divine casters, most likely these beta versions won't make it to the final version of the rules.
Channel energy at the moment is just something I will never consider using in my campaigns, 30'radius nuke, 30'radius healing AND making undead run... this is just plain silly.
I generally like religion specific divine casters better, but surely hierophant could be updated when a final version is available, the divine disciple Prc from FR players guide is another that could be worthwhile.
I think as we get more and more companions, chronicles and other articles on deities themselves we will get deity specific PrCs
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I think as we get more and more companions, chronicles and other articles on deities themselves we will get deity specific PrCs
Agreed... But please, not too deity specific as some of us ole timers, just won't give up Grey&%$# yet. Make them easy to convert to any "home-brew" or "pirated" campaign setting.