That could work. It might satisfy some of the calls for having MC "do something on its own"...
Would that also apply to Spell Caster who take the feat?
BTW, when the requirements list two or more Craft skills (like Spellcraft, Armorsmithing or Weaponsmithing), does it mean that you need Spellcraft *and* either of the two listed skills (depending, naturally, on the item)? I have had time for only a quick look at the PDF so far...
You pick the skill if there are more then one. Example crafting Rods: Spellcraft, Craft (blacksmithing), Craft (sculpting), or Craft (weaponsmithing). You can use any one of the four for the crafting check, most likely your best one. For a Wizard or other spellcaster that will likely be Spellcraft.
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Yet another "have to remove all things negative" move that only serves to make PF more Blah then ever.Actually, this is the sort of catch that is the reason why we are doing this playtest. You should not be able to create spell trigger and completion items (such as scrolls, wands, and stafffs) without the appropriate spells... as that makes very little sense. The intent here, was to allow someone to create a gauntlet of rust without knowing rusting grasp.
That said, I am thinking more that there should be two types of penalty, a –5 for having someone else meet the prereq, and a significantly higher penalty for not meeting the prereq at all.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingPS: Kong, you really should try to work with the playtest here instead of against it. This is the first time anyone outside Paizo has seen these rules and we knew there were going to be some changes, but your tone is not very helpful.
I will be the first too admit... I can get quite passionate about things, expecailly things that burn my briches.
I dont think someone should be able to create a guantlet of rust, without first knowing about the rusting grasp spell. Hand waving this sort of thing with a simple skill roll, lessens it and removes the reward of something achieved.
Plus it puts more "mechanics" cogs into the machine, and having to balance them. Might work great for these magic items, but its over or under balanced for these magical items. It lessens the backwards compatibility even more... forcing the GM to rework all other non PF magic items yet again.
I can whole heartedly agree, if you see prerequisites as they are a bad thing, and you want a work around and other option. Thats awesome, Im all for that. But lets create something that puts something into the game, not take something out of the game.
An idea that puts something into the game, and lets players work around Prereq. is instead of replacing the need...
Kong,
I think the key issue here is that your way doesn't suit every group or every campaign. First of all, I've played in (and ran) a lot of campaigns since AD&D in which PCs needed "special ingredients" to create scrolls or magical items -- e.g. a Couatl's feather and Gorgon's Blood (to name two such "ingredients") to scribe high-level scrolls. I even remember one set of adventures needed to create a Staff of the Magi (capturing a thought of a Hakeashar, the flame from the eldest Red Wyrm in the world, and so on).
Occasionally it was great, but most of the times it was infuriating either for the players and/or the DM. Sometimes the campaign's hectic "deadline" prevented you from going on "side-treks" (and I remember times when a DM blatantly announced "you are not allowed to do that, because it takes too much time and the BBEG's world domination plan must be stopped.") or occasionally the other players didn't want to go "off the track". Come to think of it, in *most* campaigns I've played in creating scrolls, potions, magical items or even masterwork items was nigh-impossible (you could buy them at the DM's discretion, often at 200% of the listed priced, if the said item or spell was not "too powerful" in the DM's eyes). When you *had* time and the DM's approval to do them, it was one or two potions/scrolls/items in five years (real life time) or so. In the longest-running campaign I'm playing in, one of the players has been absent (due to his PC researching two new 7th level spells and collecting "special ingredients" needed in the research process) for four years... only because we go day-by-day basis from one adventure to another, with no time to catch out breaths in between sessions.
I think the new rules are great, because "automatic" creation process has always felt a bit boring. Yes, the players can always just say that the system allows them to "bypass" the requirements, but this is easy to houserule -- you can keep the "special ingredients" and research process and required spells in your game, if you want to. You can also include them in the "story" after the skill check (i.e. "you manage to track down a merchant who sells you the eyes of a basilisk..." or "A visiting wizard agrees to cast the 'Rusting Grasp', but only after you allow him to copy two high-level spells. You also sense that there is something weird about this guy..." etc.).
I also like that the new system introduces the chance for failure (however marginal that may be), and rules for accidentally creating cursed items.
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BTW, when the requirements list two or more Craft skills (like Spellcraft, Armorsmithing or Weaponsmithing), does it mean that you need Spellcraft *and* either of the two listed skills (depending, naturally, on the item)? I have had time for only a quick look at the PDF so far...You pick the skill if there are more then one. Example crafting Rods: Spellcraft, Craft (blacksmithing), Craft (sculpting), or Craft (weaponsmithing). You can use any one of the four for the crafting check, most likely your best one. For a Wizard or other spellcaster that will likely be Spellcraft.
Thanks, Dorje!
In a way, I'd still like it to be Spellcraft *and* one of the Craft skills, but I can understand why that would be too "harsh" from a game mechanics POV.
I really like where this is going. Only had a chance to skim things a bit here and there, so here is my kneejerk responce.
I like the base DC being set at 5, as this gives you a slight chance of failur on something that was automatic (and in my opinion shouldn't have been). The ability to shorten the process, and add other complications is good, as this will give you just enough rope to hang yourself. If anything I think the modifiers should be higher, with the ability to lower the total DC by having things like "Archmagus Bob's manual of crafting magical blades", or being able to conduct the crafting in an area of bisecting lay lines, the exceptionaly holy shrine of secrecy, or whatever. You get the idea.
I think it's a matter of me having just skimmed stuff quickly, while bouncing back and forth between gaming stuff and geology schools, but is it just me or is it more expensive to make an item that has a slot with multiple abilities than one without a slot?
I'm thinking, after reading the thread so far, that an item maker should probably know (or have on hand) the spell for any sort of spell completion or trigger device, after all, that's using the actual spell.
But I can totally get behind not having it for other items and using the increased item creation check DC to simulate it. Basically, that tougher check means that even without the example or first hand knowledge in front of you, you still understand the magical crafting techniques and principles sufficiently to make do. That has been my understanding of the spellcraft skill anyway. You don't know the spell intimately enough to know how to cast it, but by the components you witness someone using clue you into what principles of magic the caster is using, and that's enough.
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I'm thinking, after reading the thread so far, that an item maker should probably know (or have on hand) the spell for any sort of spell completion or trigger device, after all, that's using the actual spell.
But I can totally get behind not having it for other items and using the increased item creation check DC to simulate it. Basically, that tougher check means that even without the example or first hand knowledge in front of you, you still understand the magical crafting techniques and principles sufficiently to make do. That has been my understanding of the spellcraft skill anyway. You don't know the spell intimately enough to know how to cast it, but by the components you witness someone using clue you into what principles of magic the caster is using, and that's enough.
Bypassing the spell requirement can be "fluffed" by the use of magical creature parts...
A flaming sword doesn't need flame blade as a pre-req if you craft it in the heart of a volcano, and use the heart of a fire elemental...
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I like where this thread is going.
As for the DCs for crafting I have been doing this in my 3.5 game for awhile but seeing cleaned up with some solid rules is a blessing.
Now a few things and ideas for you.
I feel that other classes should be able to craft magic items with out being a spell caster and I have an idea or two to help this out.
Since we are talking about a penalty for not having the spell on your list
what if we have a few tool kits that make up for this.
1. They can be a one time use or something that is permanent. Which ever would balance more. Say it functions as a tool equal to having up to 1st,2nd,3rd or what ever spell level it is. Cost of the tool could be gold amount x spell level equivalent = cost to buy.
2. They could buy a scroll of the spells needed and burn it up crafting the item. Like transferring the magical essence of the scroll to the item being created. This once again could substitute not having the spell or being a spell caster penalty.
I also agree with Kong on using items in place of spells or to create magical items. Our gaming group has been doing this as well and they love the feel of history it bring to an item. I feel it could be added in one of the side boxes that Paizo has been using. Similar to how the DMG had the alternate rules to summoning on DMG pg 37.
Not sure if anyone cares or not, but I note with some interest, that the magic item creation rules now appear to be heading in a direction remarkably similar to rules I came up with some time ago. You can feel free to take any of this, or ignore it.
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In <my campaign world> magic item creation is risky. You could fail. You could even hurt yourself. Worse yet, you could invest a lot of time, money, and resources and get nothing in return. There are no item creation feats anymore, instead characters must possess the Craft Magic Item skill. All characters with Craft Magic Item as a class skill are able to craft Scrolls and Potions automatically with no skill check necessary.
Make a Craft Magic Item skill check at the end of each day (full 8 hour period) spent working on the item. You gain no benefit by spending more than 8 hours in one day working on an item. If you spend anything less than a full 8 hours then you cannot make a check for that day and you still expend one days raw materials.
Check
To create a particular type of item, the crafter needs to be at least the minimum level shown on Table 1.
Table 1: Craft Magic Item Skill Minimum Level and DCs
Type of Item, Min Level, DC
Wondrous, 3rd, 22
Wand, 5th, 24
Rod, 9th, 26
Staff, 12th, 28
Ring, 12th, 31
To craft an item the DM makes a craft skill check for the crafter at the end of each day of work or alternately makes the roll as if the crafter took 10 on his check. The player may indicate how many times he would like to take 10 but the crafter may not take 10 for the final check in any event. The DM must roll a specific number of successes before getting a Mishap or complete failure.
The item is complete when the crafter rolls a number of successes equal to the price of the item divided by 1000. The crafting process may finish prematurely if the crafter suffers a mishap or if he runs out of raw materials before accumulating enough successes.
Table: Craft Check Modifiers
Action, Modifier
Working intermittently, -2,
Working without proper tools, -2
Working while traveling, -2
Being aided, +2
Others may assist in the crafting process. Follow normal “aid another” rules. Note that this may speed up crafting time and as a result reduce total costs.
Secondary effects
For each effect enchanted into the item beyond one, increase the DC by +2.
Special
Dwarves and Gnomes craft at an accelerated rate, completing 1,500gp worth of work on check results of DC to DC +4 and complete 375 gp worth of work for each 5 over the DC.
Table: Craft Check Results
Check, Result
Natural 1, Failure. Reduce number of successes scored thus far to 0. Check for Mishap*.
Fails by 10+, Failure. Reduce number of successes scored thus far to 0.
Fails by 5-9, Reduce number of successes scored thus far by 3.
Fails by 0-4, Do not add a success to your success count.
Succeeds, Add 1 Success to your Success Count. If you only needed one more Success, then the item is complete, otherwise add 1 to your Success Count.
Succeeds by more than 5, Add 2 to your Success Count for every 5 you surpass the DC. Add 3 to your Success Count if your character is a Gnome or Dwarf.
* Mishaps are detailed in the Thundain 2.0 DM’s Guide.
Curses
Consult the standard 3.5 SRD Curses rules at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm
Skill Focus
Though there is just one Craft Magic Item skill, a player that wishes to focus on the creating of one type of magic item can select Skill Focus (Craft Magic Item - Scroll), Skill Focus (Craft Magic Item - Wand), etc. Skill Focus cannot be applied to the base Craft Magic Item skill.
Magic Item Types
Potions
The character must possess ranks in Craft (alchemy) equal to or greater than the spell level of the spell enchanting the potion.
Repairing Damaged Items
- Repairing a broken item costs 1/2 of the items base price, requires half the time it would take to craft a new item of the same sort, and the DC to repair a broken item is half the original creation DC.
- Restoring spent charges in an item that uses charges costs 1/50th of the items base price per charge restored (may not exceed 50 total), requires 1 hour of time and the DC to restore charges is half the original creation DC.
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This is from table 15-27:
Command word Spell level x caster level x 1,800 gp Cape of the mountebank
According to my calculations, the cape should be worth 64,800 GP (CL 9 x spell lvl 4= 36 x 1800). However, it's price is 10,080 GP in the beta playtest.
Is there a calculation that I have overlooked? This relates directly to the item I'm creating for the contest.
Thanks.
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From the Addendum:
"MAGIC ITEM CREATION
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats, which
allow them to invest time and money into an item’s creation.
At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single
skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes other skills) to
finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills,
you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to
create a magic item is 5 + the listed minimum caster level
for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not
function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this
check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items
for more information).
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions.
These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be
known by the item’s creator (although access through another
magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic
item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not
meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation
feat, which is mandatory."
Does this mean that a Fighter with Craft Magic Arms and Armor can craft a magic sword, providing he has a good enough Craft (weaponsmithing) modifier? (allowing him to bypass all the prereqs he doesn't have, such as caster level, spells required, etc.)
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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This is from table 15-27:
Command word Spell level x caster level x 1,800 gp Cape of the mountebank
According to my calculations, the cape should be worth 64,800 GP (CL 9 x spell lvl 4= 36 x 1800). However, it's price is 10,080 GP in the beta playtest.
Is there a calculation that I have overlooked? This relates directly to the item I'm creating for the contest.
Thanks.
It's a 1 charge per day item, so you'd divide the price by 5. However, this still gets 12,960. To get the list price of 10,080, you'd have to use a caster level of 7, which gets 7*4*1800/5 = 10,080. So therefore, the listed caster level is probably in error and should be 7.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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From the Addendum:
"MAGIC ITEM CREATION
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats, which
allow them to invest time and money into an item’s creation.
At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single
skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes other skills) to
finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills,
you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to
create a magic item is 5 + the listed minimum caster level
for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not
function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this
check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items
for more information).
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions.
These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be
known by the item’s creator (although access through another
magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic
item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not
meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation
feat, which is mandatory."Does this mean that a Fighter with Craft Magic Arms and Armor can craft a magic sword, providing he has a good enough Craft (weaponsmithing) modifier? (allowing him to bypass all the prereqs he doesn't have, such as caster level, spells required, etc.)
No, since a fighter couldn't take the craft magic arms and armor feat, as that feat requires a caster level of 5. However, it does allow a fighter with the Master Craftsman feat in the new feats announced on this thread and a good enough craft (weaponsmithing) modifier can craft a magic sword.
No, since a fighter couldn't take the craft magic arms and armor feat, as that feat requires a caster level of 5. However, it does allow a fighter with the Master Craftsman feat in the new feats announced on this thread and a good enough craft (weaponsmithing) modifier can craft a magic sword.
As long as they have the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat too. The Master Craftsman feat lets them use their Craft ranks as their caster level for meeting the caster level requirments for the feat, as well as the requirments for the magic item.
It's a 1 charge per day item, so you'd divide the price by 5. However, this still gets 12,960. To get the list price of 10,080, you'd have to use a caster level of 7, which gets 7*4*1800/5 = 10,080. So therefore, the listed caster level is probably in error and should be 7.
Thanks!
+2 for assisstance
+5 for an item with prereqs not on your spell list
+10 for skipping a prereq
The +10 is going to be quite the skill tax. I've been enthralled with the Master Craftsman feat, and would hate to see it made just that more impossible to pull off.
With a +10, perhaps the MC feat would need to offer a skill bonus. :/
Already they take two feats, and are limited to a specific skillset within those feats--so they get less use out of them than a full caster would. It's a narrow spectrum.
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Not sure if anyone cares or not, but I note with some interest, that the magic item creation rules now appear to be heading in a direction remarkably similar to rules I came up with some time ago. You can feel free to take any of this, or ignore it.
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In <my campaign world> magic item creation is risky. You could fail. You could even hurt yourself. Worse yet, you could invest a lot of time, money, and resources and get nothing in return. There are no item creation feats anymore, instead characters must possess the Craft Magic Item skill. All characters with Craft Magic Item as a class skill are able to craft Scrolls and Potions automatically with no skill check necessary.
Make a Craft Magic Item skill check at the end of each day (full 8 hour period) spent working on the item. You gain no benefit by spending more than 8 hours in one day working on an item. If you spend anything less than a full 8 hours then you cannot make a check for that day and you still expend one days raw materials.
Check
To create a particular type of item, the crafter needs to be at least the minimum level shown on Table 1.
Table 1: Craft Magic Item Skill Minimum Level and DCs
Type of Item, Min Level, DC
Wondrous, 3rd, 22
Wand, 5th, 24
Rod, 9th, 26
Staff, 12th, 28
Ring, 12th, 31To craft an item the DM makes a craft skill check for the crafter at the end of each day of work or alternately makes the roll as if the crafter took 10 on his check. The player may indicate how many times he would like to take 10 but the crafter may not take 10 for the final check in any event. The DM must roll a specific number of successes before getting a Mishap or complete failure.
The item is complete when the crafter rolls a number of successes equal to the price of the item divided by 1000. The crafting process may finish prematurely if the crafter suffers a mishap or if he runs out of raw materials before accumulating enough successes.
Table: Craft Check Modifiers
Action, Modifier
...
Thanks jreyst, These rules seem simple enough so that they are actually usuable, give a good DC. I especially like "Craft Magic Item" as Class Skill. (I suggest for Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics and Druids).
I personally don't really like the Idea that Non-Spellcaster such as Fighters can make magic Items of any Kind, not even armor or weapons. If they could, why should they ever ask a spell caster for help (and pay him for said help) thus taking away a retired wizard-adventurers source of income?. After all, if that would work, why not also have a smith build ships without the help of a boatbuilder, a miller building his mill without a carpenter or architect?
To make a magic item, the crafter should either have knowledge of the subject and a good grip of using it or he needs help. Just because a fighter might recognize that the spell thrown at him is a fireball (any adventurer of at least 3rd level should know what it means if a ball of guano and sulfur is thrown in his direction....)only it does not have the same effect if a Fighter throws said ball, as if a wizard did so with the correct incantation.
One might be willing to allow members of "magical nature" craft minor objects.
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Not sure if anyone cares or not, but I note with some interest, that the magic item creation rules now appear to be heading in a direction remarkably similar to rules I came up with some time ago. You can feel free to take any of this, or ignore it.
+++
In <my campaign world> magic item creation is risky. You could fail. You could even hurt yourself. Worse yet, you could invest a lot of time, money, and resources and get nothing in return. There are no item creation feats anymore, instead characters must possess the Craft Magic Item skill. All characters with Craft Magic Item as a class skill are able to craft Scrolls and Potions automatically with no skill check necessary.
Make a Craft Magic Item skill check at the end of each day (full 8 hour period) spent working on the item. You gain no benefit by spending more than 8 hours in one day working on an item. If you spend anything less than a full 8 hours then you cannot make a check for that day and you still expend one days raw materials.
Check
To create a particular type of item, the crafter needs to be at least the minimum level shown on Table 1.
Table 1: Craft Magic Item Skill Minimum Level and DCs
Type of Item, Min Level, DC
Wondrous, 3rd, 22
Wand, 5th, 24
Rod, 9th, 26
Staff, 12th, 28
Ring, 12th, 31To craft an item the DM makes a craft skill check for the crafter at the end of each day of work or alternately makes the roll as if the crafter took 10 on his check. The player may indicate how many times he would like to take 10 but the crafter may not take 10 for the final check in any event. The DM must roll a specific number of successes before getting a Mishap or complete failure.
The item is complete when the crafter rolls a number of successes equal to the price of the item divided by 1000. The crafting process may finish prematurely if the crafter suffers a mishap or if he runs out of raw materials before accumulating enough successes.
Table: Craft Check Modifiers...
For a wizard old age/ even death is just a metaphysical inconvenience. I did do one change when I was running some time ago. If you want an intelligent magic item you have to put a spirit in it. It is always a necromantic act. Some found away around it and used birds for empathic connections but no PC wanted an Intelligent item once they found out what was needed for it to work.
Thanks jreyst, These rules seem simple enough so that they are actually usuable, give a good DC. I especially like "Craft Magic Item" as Class Skill. (I suggest for Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics and Druids).
Yes, Craft Magic Item is a class skill for any class that can currently use Craft {Magic Item] feats.
I personally don't really like the Idea that Non-Spellcaster such as Fighters can make magic Items of any Kind,
Well I am torn here. I want to be able to have a grizzled old veteran soldier who sits alone hermitted on a mountaintop able to take the heart of a giant and a crap-load of Craft Weapon skill points and spend a week forging the axe of giant-slaying. He spends hours and hours on end immersing the blade as it is being forged into the blood of the giants heart, then burning mystical incense over it, then immersing it in specially prepared oils, and then after a series of difficult skill checks, he hands off the great axe he now calls "Karg, Slayer of Giants" to his brother, who seeks the giants who destroyed his village the winter before.
The idea being that fighters (or master weapon/armor smiths) can actually make magic weapons, shields, or armor (but not other magic items). I picture a clan of dwarves secluded in a deep cavern near a volcano that spend the 9th month of every 10th year submerging newly formed masterwork hammers into the spewing lava from an ancient volcano. These hammers then gain the flaming burst ability (assuming the crafters make very difficult checks).
Now, on the flip-side, I don't like the idea of mages spitting out keen, icy long swords. I like the idea of whomever is doing the crafting be intimately in tune with the usage of the item being crafted, ie, warrior sorts for weapons and armors, mages for staves that spew fireballs, or priests for cups that heal when drank from, or bards for lutes that sing songs that put people to sleep. Sure, by the current rules, any mage as long as he has the sleep spell can make sleep items. I think the item being enchanted should come into play somehow, and I think the rules presented so far are a step in that direction.
I am also coming up with a method by which some items (masterwork or otherwise) can become magical unintentionally as a result of great events such as having been used to kill a major world NPC or having saved the wielder/wearer from a horrendous burning death from the worlds oldest dragon etc. I can see instances where a particularly brave hero defends another from the blast of an epic dragons fire breath with his beat up old rusted shield, and as a result that poor old shield somehow from that point forward seems to grant fire resistance to all within 10' of the wielder.
Just some crazy ideas. I don't like just anyone being able to make just anything but I DO like the idea of certain classes or character types being able to make magic items appropriate to their profession, UNDER THE RIGHT circumstances.
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Actually... what are the rules for researching new spells?
I checked the "Independent Research" in the magic overview in 3.5, and at best it refers to the DMG for creating new spells. Which talks only about what limitations to set for the different spellcasters, and how to balance spells.
As far as I can tell, there's no hard, fast rules on what needs to be rolled or done to actually research a spell in the core rules.
Maybe if this were better explained, we could compare the magic item bypassing requirements on such things as a Wand of Knock for the Sorcerer, etc.
We tried a following houserule in one of the campaigns (in which we are using Thieves' World's magic system anyway): Spellcraft check for daily or weekly procession, with the DC 20 + spell level (IIRC). So a third level spell would require you to roll 23 to succeed -- naturally, each failure halts your progress, and natural 1 lowers your total score.
A couple of additional ideas:
- There could be a GP "component experimental cost" involved (as with magical items), but it could be relatively small, e.g. 10 GP per spell level per week?
- If there is no GP cost, maybe "special components" (e.g. some of those listed in UA?) could give you +2 or +4 to your roll?
- A critical success (natural 20) could result in half the GP cost, or double your daily/weekly result?
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Now, on the flip-side, I don't like the idea of mages spitting out keen, icy long swords. I like the idea of whomever is doing the crafting be intimately in tune with the usage of the item being crafted, ie, warrior sorts for weapons and armors, mages for staes that spew fireballs, or priests for cups that heal when drank from, or bards for lutes that sing songs that put people to sleep. Sure, by the current rules, any mage as long...
Me neither. I think that a fighter who has the Create Armor or Create Weapon Skill should do just that. It takes lots of time to get the smithing done right, and much mire time and work to create a masterwork Item. He then takes more time to decorate the thing with runes and other things he engraves on it (this way he will get in tune with the Object ( the spellcaster only imbues the magical power). When he has finished this one in a thousand (or even 1 in 10.000) perfect work he should contact a spellcaster of renown to do the magical stuff. This way everybody does what he does best. Done this way, every one in the group can participate in the making, thus creating something like a group treasure. If the item will be sold, the group will also be known for their great craftsmanship. Sure the Rogue or bard did not contribute with that Item, but the rogue could manufacture the perfect lock or set of thieving tools, a masterwork disguise kit etc. The bard also as well as maybe Masterwork instruments. Such again could then be magicked my the spellcaster. Neither does the spellcaster do the armor or weapon smithing unless he might have the appropriate skill )if he does, they most likely would not be that high in skill ranks, so he would rather have them made by a master smith).
As for Dwarves, A simple houserule could give them a skill bonus on creating dwarven specific Weapons, as the probably have the best Hammer or Armor Smith in the World. Similar rules could go for Elves and Bows or Elven Swords.
On the other Hand, If a Fighter wants to go into the making of magic weapons, then maybe he should spend XP to learn at least the basic knowledge of Spellcasting (or even a few level more). As for the wizard, even knowing how to do the correct smithing (given he spend some Skill points), not being used to use swords, hammers, maces, his work might still be inferior in comparison to a fighter creating the same weapon....
I think by keeping it this way, the process of creating magical items keeps the thing more balanced as to involving only one PC in the group. Having the classes to combine their effort in order to create magic items might also highten their esprit de corpes. Also, in doing it this way, no single character/player will use his out of game time (due to whatever reason he / his character is not attending (holiday, illness etc.) to announce that he will use the passed (game) time during his absence to come up with hordes of magical goodies. (unfortunately that has happened in a few groups that I have played in....allowing the GM no reason to gainsay, since the PC did not travel with the group, thus gaining no XP while at the same time explaining why the PC has been gone from the group for a while).
My thoughts:
I would love to see a system where non-casters can create magic items; I've been thinking about how to implement it in my own games.
One of the things I would say is that those who are not familiar with a spell (i.e., not having it on their list/known spells) should not be able to create spell completion or spell trigger items - they can't encode the precepts of the spell into the item. This prevents the oddity of a wizard scribing his own fireball spell to add it to his spellbook, or creating a wand of cure light wounds or other such strangeness. It still allows a fighter to make a magical flaming sword or a rogue making a ring of invisibility.
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I've also always loved the idea of "power components" - blood of dragon, a bit of alicorn, perhaps the eye of a catoblepas - this gives PCs something to quest for to make special magic items, and could be the basis for NPCs to send PCs on quests for rare and strange things. There are two problems - how do you make it adventure appropriate and keep the characters from skinning and processing every monster they run across for future use as magic components?
I believe the answer to the first problem is to use the CR system. If you need to make, say a gauntlet of rust, and let's say it has a minimum caster level of 7 (not sure the real requirements), then you need to defeat 7 CR's worth of creatures with a rusting ability (say, 4 rust monsters by the current CR system - a 7th level encounter) and collect parts from it - perhaps an antennae, blood or even scales. Or the DM could make it a single rust monster and apply enough requirements/complications to the task to up it to the challenge of the appropriate caster level, though that would take a bit more inventiveness on the DM's part.
The second part is keeping the item viable for use. A limitation on how long such collected articles "retain" their magic viability. Perhaps the viability only lasts an hour before the item's enchantment must be finished, or perhaps 4 or 8 hours. If characters can't simply bag or otherwise store such items (and don't forget about the possible use of gentle repose or similar magics - perhaps such magic "taints" the item), they are much less likely to become trophy hunters and only use "power components" when they specifically set out on such quests. Either characters will need to bring the item to be enchanted to the site and work on it there, or find some way to bring the creature of their quest back with them - perhaps even a greater challenge in the making.
I have an additional question about the possibility of removing required spells in item creation.
I really like the opportunity to create items without knowing the spells, especially playing a bard, where my choices is so limited.
However I would like to have somethings clarified:
- If you do not have the required spell, would you be able to chose this from any spell-list (perhaps with an additional cost)?
- If so, can a spellcaster, who know a spell already, still impose the additional cost for not knowing the spell, and create the item with the spell from a different class-list? This would enable especially sorcerers and wizards in making items at a cheaper price.
- Also, does this enable a bard to produce cheaper wands, using the spells from other spell list? Or otherwise let the wizards produce cheaper wands than the bard with the same spells using the bard spell-list?
I'm not so sure about the tread being dead but I want to get in my two cents as well. The idea of "power components" is ok in a house rule type game. I am in a game where we don't have time to go chasing after little fluffy fairy wings to make'em into boots we have to keep the pace the DM sets.
I am also playing in a 2nd ed game and the component restrictions of that era are a little hard to deal with at times. Remember the scry spell, my partys druid hates the fact that I have to spend 50gp to by a tamed hawk just so I can kill the bird and harvest it's eyes for that spell. The thing is we NEED the spell. My mage in this game is a walking butcher shop of horrors because everytime we kill ANYTHING "it's a component" for some spell or another. That also affects my alignment cause no "good" mage is gonna use unicorn horn or phoenix feather.
Anyway to sum up. Leave the pazio rules the way they are and if you want to tighten them in your game then do so. Whenever we have a sea voyage for 3to 5 days my mage can now do some neat stuff while the other characters that have skills in this area can shine as well.