While I am fine with assassins without spells, I like the idea of them having the choice between having spells or some other ability, similar to the spell-less ranger variants out there.
Here are a few of my idea of what this ability or chain of abilities might be.
Grant a bonus on a skill check involving the target for a period of time after examining them for three rounds (which is necessary to perform a death attack). Disguise checks when disguise yourself as the target, survival checks to track the target, perception checks to detect the target, and so on.
Abilities that grant a specific boon on one attack against a target made before the end of the assassin’s next turn if they spend a standard action to examine the target (even in battle). Attack the target’s touch AC, leave a blow that continues to bleed, deal extra damage on the hit, a bonus on a combat maneuver used against the target
The assassin in my opinion has been underpowered since it was brought into 3.0. Going ninja of the crescent moon or arcane trickster always resulted in a more deadly character. The sneak attack progression is equal to a rogue, but at higher levels the basic rogue got access to bleed, ability damage, improved evasion, etc... The limited spells the assassin received with the enhanced penalty on poisons isn't enough for the assassin to equal the basic rogue.
The basic damage math for the rogue is # of attacks and amount of sneak attack damage. The concept for the assassin needs to essentially be a covert combat rogue. Moving the impromptu sneak attack to the assassin along with requiring two weapon proficiency would be a vast improvement to the current build.
The DC of the assassin's death attack was never high enough to be a real cause for concern. Making it 15 + assassin level + the character's int. mod would be more reasonable for the 3 rounds of patience.
Dropping the spells for being able to deal out ability damage would also be worth considering. Each sneak attack that hits deals 1 point of con.? Hide in plain sight would also be viable to add into the mix. since 3 rounds of hiding are required to make the attack (which I recommend keeping)
Obviously all of these are things to consider, but until the assassin's build is as good as or better than something I can reasonably put together with basic classes, there's no point in playing it. Since an assassin is supposed to be able to find and kill a target I would recommend the following requirements to get the basic character qualified.
Requirements:
5 ranks of stealth
Tracking (rangers or feat)
Two weapon proficiency (again ranger's or feat)
2D6 sneak attack
non lawful alignment requirement
Basically you're looking at qualifying at level 5 with 3 in rogue and 2 in ranger.
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The thing I would really like to see is assassins that are able to use their death attack as a ranged attack. The idea of the assassin that snipes his target to death from a concealed position is a pretty traditional one, so I've always been confused at the reluctance of allowing the assassin to use his death attack on any sneak attack, including a ranged attack from 30 feet away in a surprise round. I would really like to see an option for assassins to eventually be able to use a ranged death attack from farther away, but maybe I'm alone on this one.
Jeremy Puckett
The thing I would really like to see is assassins that are able to use their death attack as a ranged attack. The idea of the assassin that snipes his target to death from a concealed position is a pretty traditional one, so I've always been confused at the reluctance of allowing the assassin to use his death attack on any sneak attack, including a ranged attack from 30 feet away in a surprise round. I would really like to see an option for assassins to eventually be able to use a ranged death attack from farther away, but maybe I'm alone on this one.
Jeremy Puckett
You're not alone. I think allowing the Death Attack to be used with any sneak attack is the most logical way. I probably wouldn't drop the 3 rounds of preparation though.
I am in the no spells for the assassin camp. I am an old 1e player where I thought the assassin was best
By the way, I am in the no spells for Ranger camp too
We have Arcane Trickster. Why not Arcane Assassin as a PrC? After a few levels of assassin, you choose whether to use mundane training or arcane skills to help you make the kill.
EDIT: Or why not make them Talents? We have Rogue Talents. We have Rogue Master Talents. Just extend the concept to Assassin Talents. Pick things like ranged sneak attack, poison mastery, or arcane spells. Hmm, this might be a good idea. Minor or Major Magic can be a pre-req to the Assassin Magic Talents.
EDIT2: Make the Assassin Magic Talents pre-req be the ability to cast Cantrips or 1st level spells. That way characters that became Assassins from other classes than Rogue can take the Talent.
I mentioned this in the other assassin thread, but I think it bears repeating here:
I have always felt the bonus to Fort. saves vs poison to be a bit lackluster. When I tinkered with the class, I took that out and replaced it with a major ability: increasing the distance by which the assassin is able to make a sneak attack/death attack by 10ft for every +1 they used to get.
This way you can get rooftop snipers that actually only need to fire once.
We have Arcane Trickster. Why not Arcane Assassin as a PrC? After a few levels of assassin, you choose whether to use mundane training or arcane skills to help you make the kill.
EDIT: Or why not make them Talents? We have Rogue Talents. We have Rogue Master Talents. Just extend the concept to Assassin Talents. Pick things like ranged sneak attack, poison mastery, or arcane spells. Hmm, this might be a good idea. Minor or Major Magic can be a pre-req to the Assassin Magic Talents.
EDIT2: Make the Assassin Magic Talents pre-req be the ability to cast Cantrips or 1st level spells. That way characters that became Assassins from other classes than Rogue can take the Talent.
I would enjoy seeing some specially made assassin "talents" that have to do with making poison more potent or sneaking all sneakily or something.
I don't know if I'm completely sold on the idea of Magic Talents, but I'm by no means against it.
We have Arcane Trickster. Why not Arcane Assassin as a PrC? After a few levels of assassin, you choose whether to use mundane training or arcane skills to help you make the kill.
EDIT: Or why not make them Talents? We have Rogue Talents. We have Rogue Master Talents. Just extend the concept to Assassin Talents. Pick things like ranged sneak attack, poison mastery, or arcane spells. Hmm, this might be a good idea. Minor or Major Magic can be a pre-req to the Assassin Magic Talents.
EDIT2: Make the Assassin Magic Talents pre-req be the ability to cast Cantrips or 1st level spells. That way characters that became Assassins from other classes than Rogue can take the Talent.
do you mean Assassin Talent as new talents available via the Rogue class, or Assassin Talents as rogue-like talents available through the Assassin class?
We have Arcane Trickster. Why not Arcane Assassin as a PrC?
I use the Psychic Assassin from WotC's "Mind's Eye" column, and just replace "manifesting" with "spellcasting." Seems to work quite well.
I agree with Starmight that the assassin was "just OK" before, and that removing his spells has really hamstrung his effectiveness (no more wraithstrike...!). To make a 1e-style spell-less assassin, I'd almost want to use the Pathfinder version, but give it full BAB. I'm also with Jiremi in thinking that a sniper assassin would be nice to have.
Or why not make them Talents? We have Rogue Talents. We have Rogue Master Talents. Just extend the concept to Assassin Talents. Pick things like ranged sneak attack, poison mastery, or arcane spells.
do you mean Assassin Talent as new talents available via the Rogue class, or Assassin Talents as rogue-like talents available through the Assassin class?
Assassin Talents as rogue-like talents available through the Assassin class. I meant that they are special Assassin talents that are only accessible to those who take the Assassin PrC. Else, classes besides Rogue that become Assassins could never take the Talents. Maybe they should not be called 'Talents' since they are accessible by all Assassins, not just former Rogues. The term 'Talent' could cause confusion.
But the point is that different assassins might take different paths. Some might use spells. Some might be masters of wet work with a knife. Some might become experts with poison. Others might become snipers.
EDIT: But now that you got me thinking, maybe it would be fun to create Assassin Talents that only former Rogues can use; like Poison Expert or Cut Throat. Likewise only former Rogues who took the Magic Talent or former arcane casters could access the Assassin Magic Talents (spells). Maybe only former Rangers (or people with certain ranged weapon feat Pre-Reqs) can become snipers. I really don't think we want to get too restrictive, but it could be fun. I could see one rogue assassin who knows blades and poisons, but can not use spells or use a ranged weapon to snipe. Or vice versa for former Wizard or Ranger.
EDIT2: Let's just go with generic 'Talents' that can be use by all Assassins PrC. That way you can pick at what level you get your 'powers' and individual assassins would be more unique.
I don't mind an arcane assassin PrC. Just keep it out of the current class
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Assassin Talents as rogue-like talents available through the Assassin class. I meant that they are special Assassin talents that are only accessible to those who take the Assassin PrC. Else, classes besides Rogue that become Assassins could never take the Talents. Maybe they should not be called 'Talents' since they are accessible by all Assassins, not just former Rogues. The term 'Talent' could cause confusion.
But the point is that different assassins might take different paths. Some might use spells. Some might be masters of wet work with a knife. Some might become experts with poison. Others might become snipers
I like this approach...it gives the Assassin PrC some versatility and allows for a range of different builds.
Let me suggest a few rough ideas for additional assassin talents:
Social Chameleon: Helps the assassin 'blend in', perhaps providing a bonus to certain skills when attempting to get close to a target in a social situation.
Concealed Weapon: Gives the assassin a bonus when attempting to hide a small weapon such as a knife or shuriken on his or her person. Perhaps the size of this bonus should be equal to the assassin's class level?
Assassins have certainly been 'nerfed' by the removal of spells.
Assassin talents would go some way to redressing this. Perhaps the option of gaining +1 caster level (arcane or divine) for those who already have some spell casting talent could also be includied. This would allow for 'mundane' assassins, arcane assassins and holy assassin for followers of deities like Norgorber, Pyremius and Bhaal.
Assassin talent Options could be:
Arcane Killer: +1 level arcane spell casting (can be taken more than once)
Holy Slayer: +1 level divine spell casting (can be taken more than once)
Urban Tracking: Track in urban environments using either knowledge local or intimidate skill
Poison Expert: + 4 on victim’s DC when poisoned by the assassin
Master Sniper: Can death attack from a distance (30’ as per sneak attack?)
Practised Killer: +4 to DC of Death Attack
Rogue Training: Take any rogue talent
We have Arcane Trickster. Why not Arcane Assassin as a PrC? After a few levels of assassin, you choose whether to use mundane training or arcane skills to help you make the kill.
an excellent idea
I'm not a big fan of giving them talents. As it stands, the Assassin is simply a rogue with death attack and poison use in place of rogue tricks. If you give them rogue tricks on top of that...well...theres no real reason to play a rogue.
I say just give the assassins their spells, its one of the things that makes them distinct from existing classes.
I'm not a big fan of giving them talents. As it stands, the Assassin is simply a rogue with death attack and poison use in place of rogue tricks. If you give them rogue tricks on top of that...well...theres no real reason to play a rogue.
I say just give the assassins their spells, its one of the things that makes them distinct from existing classes.
Well something needs to be done - so far the assassin is the only class/prestige class that has lost more than it has gained.
I have a player (Ftr4/Rog5/Asn8) whose email response on first seeing the Pathfinder assassin was:
"Just read the prestige classes in pathfinder. Sod the assassin, I'll be a shadowdancer instead. With the assassin I get one death attack which most people save against (assuming that they haven't walked off in the 3 rounds because I don't get swift death until 10th level). Being a "master at hiding weapons" seems little compensation."
I don't think he was impressed.
Perhaps simply giving them back the spells is the best way to bring the class back up to its former glory, especially as it allows for backwards compatibility.
Wow. I hadn't looked at assassin, but beta has gutted the class. Please bring back the spells.
Wow. I hadn't looked at assassin, but beta has gutted the class. Please bring back the spells.
gutted? I think its brought the class back
Wow. I hadn't looked at assassin, but beta has gutted the class. Please bring back the spells.gutted? I think its brought the class back
In what way? It is more in line with the old AD&D version but do you think the the extra abilities are worth the loss of spells? I have a player with an assassin character - he certainly does not think so.
I think the versatility lost by elimination of spells makes for a weaker prestige class, and the class did not need weakiening.
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Assassins have certainly been 'nerfed' by the removal of spells.
Assassin talents would go some way to redressing this. Perhaps the option of gaining +1 caster level (arcane or divine) for those who already have some spell casting talent could also be includied. This would allow for 'mundane' assassins, arcane assassins and holy assassin for followers of deities like Norgorber, Pyremius and Bhaal.
Assassin talent Options could be:
Arcane Killer: +1 level arcane spell casting (can be taken more than once)
Holy Slayer: +1 level divine spell casting (can be taken more than once)
Urban Tracking: Track in urban environments using either knowledge local or intimidate skill
Poison Expert: + 4 on victim’s DC when poisoned by the assassin
Master Sniper: Can death attack from a distance (30’ as per sneak attack?)
Practised Killer: +4 to DC of Death Attack
Rogue Training: Take any rogue talent
I like the "Assassin Talent" concept and I wouldn't mind seeing it extended to other classes (prestige classes) as well. The more balanced and appropriate PC options that can be given players the better. A few low level class abilities (Death Attack, Sneak Attack,etc) would be enough to distinguish classes. A PrC should be Prestigious after all...
Player options = Happy Players = Good Gaming!!|
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I'm not exactly against a spell less assassain, but my concern is that the spells were not replaced with abilites of equivalent power and utility. Every other class stayed about the same or got some power ups in Pathfinder. The assassain was effectively downgraded. This is not good. He does get some interesting and thematic abilites but they are to few, too weak, and too situational to adequately replace his spellcasing abilities. Give him some really good talents or class abilites to offset the loss of spells, and me and other fans of the class will be most grateful.
ahh. Star Wars Saga talents. excellent
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The thing I would really like to see is assassins that are able to use their death attack as a ranged attack. The idea of the assassin that snipes his target to death from a concealed position is a pretty traditional one, so I've always been confused at the reluctance of allowing the assassin to use his death attack on any sneak attack, including a ranged attack from 30 feet away in a surprise round. I would really like to see an option for assassins to eventually be able to use a ranged death attack from farther away, but maybe I'm alone on this one.
Jeremy Puckett
That'd make sense, what with assassins actually known for doing that kind of thing in reality and all.
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I read a book, I think it was Friday by Robert Heinlein, not sure....it essentially said that in the assassination game, the hard part isn't making the hit. That's almost elementary.
The hard part is getting away scott free.
That's your primary reason for going from range.
The other reason would be, at least in Cyrano de Bergerac's case, it's a whole hell of a lot easier to drop a big rock on his head than it is to beat him in a sword duel. Hand-to-hand assassination is a pretty cornball idea, from the assassin's viewpoint, for numerous reasons.
You get seen, you get wounded, you get caught easier, or you get killed. For the crazy death cult thugee who doesn't care about that, it's fine and dandy, but most of these guys want to get away.
Hand-to-hand assassination is a pretty cornball idea, from the assassin's viewpoint, for numerous reasons.
You get seen, you get wounded, you get caught easier, or you get killed. For the crazy death cult thugee who doesn't care about that, it's fine and dandy, but most of these guys want to get away.
Which is where 3.0/3.5 assassins would use spells - disguise self, alter self, obscuring mist, invisibility, greater invisibility, darkness, deeper darkness and dimension door all help with escaping.
Unfortunately Pathfinder assassins have nothing to match this versality and utility.
I personally PREFER a spell-less assassin, but the assassin in the Beta is simply not worth it. It was already an underpowered class to begin with. Keeping the spells and adding the abilities it received would have made it playable and good, but as it is, it just got a whole lot worse.
I like assassin villains, and the spells gave them a way to infiltrate and then escape. Ghost Sound, Feather Fall, Spider Climb. The higher hit dice for a class that sees a lot of combat was worth it, but if you're going to remove spells completely...I don't know. Something needs to change.
Needs higher skill pts to start, a suggestion would be a firm set list of exotic killing methods, possibly tipping into the monk for ideas, but not regurgitating or demeaning the beta monk as it stands. Better stealth and mixed killing options, Melee/Range/or Spells, a group of talent trees, similar to the way the starting classes in Modern, would work nicely in this instance I believe.
Needs higher skill pts to start, a suggestion would be a firm set list of exotic killing methods, possibly tipping into the monk for ideas, but not regurgitating or demeaning the beta monk as it stands. Better stealth and mixed killing options, Melee/Range/or Spells, a group of talent trees, similar to the way the starting classes in Modern, would work nicely in this instance I believe.
ehh, to quote my idea, or is this a dead thread already?
As I was saying I believe that the path-type set up for the beginning heroes in Modern D20 would be a good way to do the assassin, make everyone happy:
Make a standard spell-less good at stealth and melee, possibly even more poison-usage or other exotic ways of killing methods.
Make a ranged path, like a sniper/marksman, with ranged death attack and so forth.
And the fairly backwards compatible spell-based assassin, possibly give him more of an oriental feel, including use of kunai and shurikan, like with 4E (I know I know, dont get me started) but I kinda liked the idea, of being good with those throwing weapons, raising the base weapon die up one to emphasize their training, if possible, allowing for the assassin to use it in a ranged touch spell delivery, might be a thought.
As said just some ideas to give more options to the player, but not go overboard, or rip off the rogue's talents or the monk's abilities.
I don't get it. The prestige class document says they get spells (?).
+0 +0 +1 +0 Sneak attack +1d6, death attack, poison use, spells
?
This has already been explained as a typo by Jason Bulmahn.
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I have a player playtesting a rogue 5/assassin 9, and I have to say we agree on some of the suggestions posted here.
The assassin should have access to some spells, probably in the line of an option to make every-other-level caster progression of a former casting class.
The death attack DC is too low to be effective, especially for an ability so intrinsic to the class. A feat or class option should be available to raise the DC (before epic level, please).
The feat Ability Focus from the MM can raise the DC of an assassain's death attack by 2. It can also be used for things like stunning fist or a hexblade's curse.
But still that would be using valuable feats for something that should already raise in progression, the Death attack is the Assasin's bread and butter.
And it still needs the option of using it in a ranged attack, at least to the first range increment of a weapon, there are several feats that can enlarge the increment that the assassin may take later to alter the range to those legendary Sniper-assassins with the mile range and all that.
This is still to say the very least of changes that need to be made currently.
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The only bad thing about removing spells from the assassin PRC is the blow it deals to "backwards compatibility." Of the numerous PRCs created by both WoTC and 3rd party companies, only the Assassin PRC and Blackguard PRC have seen the support of new spells tailored for them. Eliminating the Blackguard PRC altogether was bad enough, but cutting spells from Assassin is just bad form.
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I wouldn't say the only bad thing about removing spells is less backwards-compatability. As was mentioned earlier, the assassin spells allow the assassin to complete his missions and escape in situations that would otherwise be highly challenging, even for a rogue.
As for Ability Focus; I would still recommend the class get another +2 boost to the death attack DC, perhaps +1 at every 5 levels of assassin.
Jason, I think you can see where all of this is going. The assassin definitely needs his spells back or some really awesome class abilities to compensate for their loss. It's still a cool class, but it should not remain in it's current mechanically gimped state.
I never liked the assassin having spells. They didn't have them back in 1st, and I didn't think they should have them in 3.0 or 3.5.
I never liked the assassin having spells. They didn't have them back in 1st, and I didn't think they should have them in 3.0 or 3.5.
But without either spells or some form of assassin talents that can emulate some of the abilities of spells plus allow sniping etc they are tho only prestige class weakened from the 3.5 version.
I am still of the opinion that Assassin talents are the way to go but that for the sake of space and backwards compatibility with 3.5 adding spells back is the easier option.
Either assassins in the Beta are too weak.