[Feats] PLEASE Revert Cleave and Make New Great Cleave


Skills and Feats


Tittle says it all.

Please give us the old cleave as it was actually fine the way it was. It was automatic and could be done at the end of a charge, with splat books made it more viable. You got your nerf of power attack already so this isn't a problem any more.

As for great cleave, it needed a boost from the older version, not this same, if not lower powered feat.

Some ideas for altering the 3.5 great cleave.

* able to make 5ft step between attacks.
* throw in your normal cleave ability on top of already existing feat.
* Able to count items as cleave targets if you have improved sunder.


Cleave was hardly fine the way it was. A feat that's usable ONLY if you drop someone AND you have another opponent adjacent? As for Great Cleave, for that to be useful, you had to drop someone, have an opponent adjacent, drop that opponent TOO, and have yet ANOTHER adjacent opponent. Cleave is better in Pathfinder than it ever was in 3.0 or 3.5. That's my opinion anyway.


Jim Callaghan wrote:
Cleave was hardly fine the way it was. A feat that's usable ONLY if you drop someone AND you have another opponent adjacent? As for Great Cleave, for that to be useful, you had to drop someone, have an opponent adjacent, drop that opponent TOO, and have yet ANOTHER adjacent opponent. Cleave is better in Pathfinder than it ever was in 3.0 or 3.5. That's my opinion anyway.

Cleave works really well in 3.5, especially in high-level play. It encourages melee players to put effort into tactical positioning, and when you're getting five attacks in a full-attack action... sometimes you drop an opponent and get that free attack.

-Matt


Mattastrophic wrote:
Jim Callaghan wrote:
Cleave was hardly fine the way it was. A feat that's usable ONLY if you drop someone AND you have another opponent adjacent? As for Great Cleave, for that to be useful, you had to drop someone, have an opponent adjacent, drop that opponent TOO, and have yet ANOTHER adjacent opponent. Cleave is better in Pathfinder than it ever was in 3.0 or 3.5. That's my opinion anyway.

Cleave works really well in 3.5, especially in high-level play. It encourages melee players to put effort into tactical positioning, and when you're getting five attacks in a full-attack action... sometimes you drop an opponent and get that free attack.

-Matt

Key word, FREE, and that means you can perform a charge or any other attack, such as off an attack of opportunity, or what ever.


Truly, I'd like to see multiple ways to get around action economy/ standard attack limitations,

as well, the introduction of 'free' 5' steps and the like scream out for greater cleave to work off of these as well...


Quandary wrote:

Truly, I'd like to see multiple ways to get around action economy/ standard attack limitations,

as well, the introduction of 'free' 5' steps and the like scream out for greater cleave to work off of these as well...

Hmmm. maybe mix it with some other feats, like the dodge/spring attack tree or something, and allow a 1 additional free 5ft step, that does provoke, after the 1st if you dropping the 2nd target? So drop one, 5ft step with no provoke, drop 2nd, 5ft step but provokes but it is free and doesn't make it a non full round attack action.

Maybe have a tree adding a 3rd or 4th 5ft step that does provoke?

The Exchange

Quandary wrote:

Truly, I'd like to see multiple ways to get around action economy/ standard attack limitations,

as well, the introduction of 'free' 5' steps and the like scream out for greater cleave to work off of these as well...

Please explain where this talk of free 5' steps is.

Dark Archive

Jim Callaghan wrote:
Cleave was hardly fine the way it was. A feat that's usable ONLY if you drop someone AND you have another opponent adjacent? As for Great Cleave, for that to be useful, you had to drop someone, have an opponent adjacent, drop that opponent TOO, and have yet ANOTHER adjacent opponent. Cleave is better in Pathfinder than it ever was in 3.0 or 3.5. That's my opinion anyway.

I agree. Cleave was only useful at low levels when you fought 10 kobolds at a time. I was recently playing a game where my fighter was surrounded by fairly tough zombies and the new great cleave was beyond useful. Much more than the old cleave which I used maybe twice in my life.

Scarab Sages

Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Mattastrophic wrote:
Jim Callaghan wrote:
Cleave was hardly fine the way it was. A feat that's usable ONLY if you drop someone AND you have another opponent adjacent? As for Great Cleave, for that to be useful, you had to drop someone, have an opponent adjacent, drop that opponent TOO, and have yet ANOTHER adjacent opponent. Cleave is better in Pathfinder than it ever was in 3.0 or 3.5. That's my opinion anyway.

Cleave works really well in 3.5, especially in high-level play. It encourages melee players to put effort into tactical positioning, and when you're getting five attacks in a full-attack action... sometimes you drop an opponent and get that free attack.

-Matt

Key word, FREE, and that means you can perform a charge or any other attack, such as off an attack of opportunity, or what ever.

I disagree completely. The new version of cleave etc... is great. the old version had circumstantial conditions so rarely achieved, it was essentially a wasted feat. Now its useful.

and you could not make a charge as an attack with your bonus attack. a charge is a full round action. The feat in 3.5 and PFRPG clearly lay out that you get an additional melee attack, without moving, against an adjacent foe.

Finally, PFRPG limits you to ONE attack rather than a full attack action. Thus at higher level cleave actually loses some of its utility. If you doubt me, reread the SRD for 3.5 and the PFRPG Beta and see for yourself.


underling wrote:
Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Mattastrophic wrote:
Jim Callaghan wrote:
Cleave was hardly fine the way it was. A feat that's usable ONLY if you drop someone AND you have another opponent adjacent? As for Great Cleave, for that to be useful, you had to drop someone, have an opponent adjacent, drop that opponent TOO, and have yet ANOTHER adjacent opponent. Cleave is better in Pathfinder than it ever was in 3.0 or 3.5. That's my opinion anyway.

Cleave works really well in 3.5, especially in high-level play. It encourages melee players to put effort into tactical positioning, and when you're getting five attacks in a full-attack action... sometimes you drop an opponent and get that free attack.

-Matt

Key word, FREE, and that means you can perform a charge or any other attack, such as off an attack of opportunity, or what ever.

I disagree completely. The new version of cleave etc... is great. the old version had circumstantial conditions so rarely achieved, it was essentially a wasted feat. Now its useful.

and you could not make a charge as an attack with your bonus attack. a charge is a full round action. The feat in 3.5 and PFRPG clearly lay out that you get an additional melee attack, without moving, against an adjacent foe.

Finally, PFRPG limits you to ONE attack rather than a full attack action. Thus at higher level cleave actually loses some of its utility. If you doubt me, reread the SRD for 3.5 and the PFRPG Beta and see for yourself.

Free attack is always useful, so what if it only one. If you get to higher levels you get multiple attacks so you gain a greater chance to use it. You logic does not work as also with greater levels you get to deal more damage and have a greater chance to drop a mook.

Plus you could use a charge with cleave then so you can put more damage after a charge.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I like the new cleave a LOT more than the 3.5 version. As mentioned, you can use it even against foes that will take several rounds to drop. While the old cleave you would get the use of once every 3 rounds perhaps after low levels.

However, I don't find the new Great Cleave a big improvement over the 3.5 version. There are too few circumstances at higher levels where you're able to use it against more than 2 foes, and even then, whirlwind attack is just as good, if not better.

What I'd rather see for Great Cleave is that it will allow you to make 2 attacks on each foe, and therefore you'd be able to get more use out of it than Cleave, even when faced with only 2 foes.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:


Free attack is always useful, so what if it only one. If you get to higher levels you get multiple attacks so you gain a greater chance to use it. You logic does not work as also with greater levels you get to deal more damage and have a greater chance to drop a mook.

Plus you could use a charge with cleave then so you can put more damage after a charge.

If you get to higher levels, you are usually facing stronger opponents in small numbers. The days of 30 kobolds swarming you are gone around lvl 5, and at best you have 2-3 enemies against you. So, getting an attack when you drop one becomes purely situational, while getting an attack when you hit one...happens all the more often. PFRPG version is far better - not so sure about Great Cleave tho...


Personally, I really like both versions of Cleave! I think both should be separate, but available feats!


Duncan Clyborne wrote:
Please explain where this talk of free 5' steps is.

Step Up.

Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

Hmmm. maybe mix it with some other feats, like the dodge/spring attack tree or something, and allow a 1 additional free 5ft step, that does provoke, after the 1st if you dropping the 2nd target? So drop one, 5ft step with no provoke, drop 2nd, 5ft step but provokes but it is free and doesn't make it a non full round attack action.

Maybe have a tree adding a 3rd or 4th 5ft step that does provoke?

Yeah, that's similar to what I'm thinking (though the way you wrote it confused me at first). Definitely, I like the 'multiple ways' to gain these abilities... So Power Attackers eventually gain an appropriate usage ("Great Cleave Step", as mentioned), as well as C.Reflex/Expertise/ Mobility types, and if you have both you have more FLEXIBILITY in the situations you can use this ability, but since they share the same mechanic (counting towards next rounds' 5' Step) they are self limiting.

At first, the way you wrote it ("allow a... 5ft step, that does provoke") felt off to me (since 5' steps should never provoke by themselves), but if it's considered from the point of view that this is movement "borrowed" from next round, then only one 5' step will NOT provoke, further movement DOES... High level Feats (off Mobility?) to allow multiple non-provoking 5' steps/ allow more movement (up to Standard Move, though still borrowed from next Round?) seem appropriate, certainly.

And like you (and others, like Bagpuss) mentioned, I think ways to add attacks onto "Standard Attacks" are defintely called for... Again, allowing multiple ways to do this (Great Cleave, 2WF, +Combat Reflex X?) seems the way to go. If there are ways to stack these (multiple additional Standard Attacks), I think that should be valid, since the character would be giving up other abilities to do so (these would all be several Feats deep into different Trees).

Incidentally, I like the tendency I see in some of the newly proposed Feats, for them to offer slightly "more", but with some penalty in a counterpoised area. (see Lunge) That seems like a good direction to develop more.


I'm also hot on the new cleave and great cleave.

Oh, I've been away some good time now, but I had so many tests and all that I hadn't the time. Also, I tried to stay away all the wizard/sorcerer time.

But then, my players don't like the new cleave. To tell the truth only two are rules-interested, and the one who's more interested is not very good with then (the discussion we had with him using highly flamable arguments about how the Divine Spells of the PHB sucked in comparision with the "great wizard/sorcerer spells like fireball" was hilarious to me), so he says that he would never "lose" a full attack with his paladin to use cleave or great cleave, because "two or three iterative attacks are better than the chance to use your first attack multiple times".

Anyway, inept player aside, I keep using it against my players and it' just sweet. It opens some new tatics and all. However, I tend to use some "level demographics" or whatever the word, using many low-level enemies againts the players because not every single rogue of the thieve's guild can be 8th level or above, so the old cleave and great cleave feat could be a little usefull.

Scarab Sages

Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

Free attack is always useful, so what if it only one. If you get to higher levels you get multiple attacks so you gain a greater chance to use it. You logic does not work as also with greater levels you get to deal more damage and have a greater chance to drop a mook.

Plus you could use a charge with cleave then so you can put more damage after a charge.

with respect, I believe the text indicates you are misinterpreting the rule. The text of the new cleave states

"As a full-round action, make a single melee attack against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (at the same bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. Both of these attacks are made at your highest attack bonus. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat."

a single attack as a full round action means that you sacrifice your iterative attacks to try for a cleave attack. Its not a free attack in addition to your standard attacks UNLESS you only have ONE standard attack. Rather, cleave allows you to attack a second foe at your full bonus.

Essentially, you sacrifice multiple attacks on one target to get single attacks against multiple opponents. Great cleave allows you to get a more fair exchange, but you still sacrifice your iterative attacks, and are still limited to attacking multiple adjacent opponents.


I'm greatly in favour of keeping the old style cleave feat. I think requiring a full attack to use the new cleave makes it a suboptimal choice for anyone past about level 6 when haste and reiterative attacks become more prevalent.

I would like to see the old cleave feat and a great cleave feat which is more useful in high level combats.

At the end of the day though as a DM i'm always at liberty to bring back the 3.5 cleave feat as a house rule.

Dark Archive

3.5 Cleave saw little or no use in most campaigns. At least, in our game I think it was used just one time (and it was by a monster).

PF Cleave, OTOH, is being used a lot in our playtest campaign. We're currently at level 7, and both the fighter and the barbarian welcome the opportunity of making a second attack without the -5 penalty. I can see where this feat is no longer as useful at levels 12+, but that's just the reason to get Great Cleave.


Betote wrote:
3.5 Cleave saw little or no use in most campaigns. At least, in our game I think it was used just one time (and it was by a monster).

And Cleave was being used left and right in the games I've participated in. So that's evidence in dissension of "3.5 Cleave is bad."

-Matt


Betote wrote:

3.5 Cleave saw little or no use in most campaigns. At least, in our game I think it was used just one time (and it was by a monster).

PF Cleave, OTOH, is being used a lot in our playtest campaign. We're currently at level 7, and both the fighter and the barbarian welcome the opportunity of making a second attack without the -5 penalty. I can see where this feat is no longer as useful at levels 12+, but that's just the reason to get Great Cleave.

Haste and reiterative makes a level 12 full Base attack class want the old cleave a good choice.

Haste is regally available and does everything the new cleave does, and then some.


I am sorry but this new cleave is really pissing me off.

It looks more like the bait and switch, (when looking at the alpha which required an action for precise shot feat and couldn't be used with other feats very well!!!) we get a feat that is only more useful at low level, but then gets completely useless at the higher levels. It is a sneaky power down that greets you with candy, but then takes away. Or more accurately it is like a starting rate at a new phone company. It starts out better but in the bulk of its use it is far worse than your old company.

P.S.
I just seems to me that a lot of feats have been attempts to in a sneaky way power down the melee types. This was unnecessary in every case with exception of power attack.... But even then it was hit WAY to HARD


Three times.. That's the amount of time my GM has positioned characters for cleave. Great cleave has never come up. With the old versions i didn't have to have them be next to each other just in my threat range. That combined with the original feat not being an action often had me using it more times in one session then Ive used it since the beta came out.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

I am sorry but this new cleave is really pissing me off.

It looks more like the bait and switch, (when looking at the alpha which required an action for precise shot feat and couldn't be used with other feats very well!!!) we get a feat that is only more useful at low level, but then gets completely useless at the higher levels. It is a sneaky power down that greets you with candy, but then takes away. Or more accurately it is like a starting rate at a new phone company. It starts out better but in the bulk of its use it is far worse than your old company.

P.S.
I just seems to me that a lot of feats have been attempts to in a sneaky way power down the melee types. This was unnecessary in every case with exception of power attack.... But even then it was hit WAY to HARD

I would say the simplest solution would be to combine great cleave and cleave into one feat - with the great cleave kicking in at +6 BAB. That way it's an option that will, situationally, make sense for the fighter to use, and he won't have totally wasted his feat slot. In my little post reworking all the feats in Beta, I kept Cleave and Great Cleave separate, and just made the actions Standard Actions at higher level - allowing the fighter to get two iterative attacks off after moving up to 30'.


VargrBoartusk wrote:
Three times.. That's the amount of time my GM has positioned characters for cleave. Great cleave has never come up. With the old versions i didn't have to have them be next to each other just in my threat range. That combined with the original feat not being an action often had me using it more times in one session then Ive used it since the beta came out.

I am beginning to lose all hope here for Pathfinder. Too many good things are getting mess with and exchanged for weaker less useful things when they were needed to be better to began with.


As a GM, I prefer the new cleave to the old one. It allows for better situations to set up and no longer will i have to rely on the rule of mook to make a person feel like their feats werent wasted.

Extra attacks good!


KujakuDM wrote:

As a GM, I prefer the new cleave to the old one. It allows for better situations to set up and no longer will i have to rely on the rule of mook to make a person feel like their feats werent wasted.

Extra attacks good!

That maybe how it is for Great Cleave, but not cleave. I would go so far as to say that the old cleave is better than the current great cleave.

3.5 cleave was an automatic and free additional attack that stacked with everything, and all they had to do was be within reach. If you knew you hit a target once on the charge and he got knocked below half their hit points, then one attacks hitting the next round would defiantly drop him. So you move to where you can reach two targets, and attack him again. If you dropped him, bam, you got an additional attack.

As I said before, great cleave would have been better if they just added stuff to it. Something like one 5ft step after an attack. Or even a partial move action of 5ft after that when you got a higher base attack.

When I have the time next Friday I will type out a little re-write for a good great cleave.


I think its more useful than the old cleave. A guaranteed extra attack at your highest BAB is more useful than a possible bonus attack.

One fighter versus two fighters of about 1/2 level or power, you cant drop them in one hit and don't want your to hit to go down, use cleave.


My PRPG games have seen great use of the new Cleave feat. My 3.5 games saw great use of the old Cleave feat.

I'm not sure why others have reported the 3.5 Cleave was rarely used; in the many campaigns I played in during 3.5 it was a rare day that the enemies attacked the melee fighters 1 by 1, waiting out of reach for their bretheren to fall so the next could charge in to take their turn. While great fodder for martial arts movies, it represents an odd-metagaming on the DM's part.

In PRPG, Cleave has proven to be a very useful tool for low-level melee fighters to deal with hordes of enemies. Now, a mass of kobolds can be torn through as easily as 3.5, but that group of tougher Hobgoblin Fighters won't be as daunting. It let's the melee character attack multiple opponents without a penalty to attack rolls. Until 10th leve, if you want to strike at one enemy until they're down, use your normal attacks. If you want to work on two enemies in conjunction with other characters, Cleave to your heart's content.

After 10th level, it's utility has diminished a bit, mostly because three attacks against one large opponent become more valuable. This is where Great Cleave should step in.

I understand the utility argument to the old Cleave feat, and wouldn't mind seeing some iteration of that in PRPG. But the new one has breathed some much-needed attack power into Melee fighters.


Brother Willi wrote:

My PRPG games have seen great use of the new Cleave feat. My 3.5 games saw great use of the old Cleave feat.

I'm not sure why others have reported the 3.5 Cleave was rarely used; in the many campaigns I played in during 3.5 it was a rare day that the enemies attacked the melee fighters 1 by 1, waiting out of reach for their bretheren to fall so the next could charge in to take their turn. While great fodder for martial arts movies, it represents an odd-metagaming on the DM's part.

In PRPG, Cleave has proven to be a very useful tool for low-level melee fighters to deal with hordes of enemies. Now, a mass of kobolds can be torn through as easily as 3.5, but that group of tougher Hobgoblin Fighters won't be as daunting. It let's the melee character attack multiple opponents without a penalty to attack rolls. Until 10th leve, if you want to strike at one enemy until they're down, use your normal attacks. If you want to work on two enemies in conjunction with other characters, Cleave to your heart's content.

After 10th level, it's utility has diminished a bit, mostly because three attacks against one large opponent become more valuable. This is where Great Cleave should step in.

I understand the utility argument to the old Cleave feat, and wouldn't mind seeing some iteration of that in PRPG. But the new one has breathed some much-needed attack power into Melee fighters.

I would be happy at this point for a simple note that the old cleave is alright at this point.

Sovereign Court

JoelF847 wrote:

I like the new cleave a LOT more than the 3.5 version. As mentioned, you can use it even against foes that will take several rounds to drop. While the old cleave you would get the use of once every 3 rounds perhaps after low levels.

However, I don't find the new Great Cleave a big improvement over the 3.5 version. There are too few circumstances at higher levels where you're able to use it against more than 2 foes, and even then, whirlwind attack is just as good, if not better.

What I'd rather see for Great Cleave is that it will allow you to make 2 attacks on each foe, and therefore you'd be able to get more use out of it than Cleave, even when faced with only 2 foes.

Cleave is a "full round" action so when you take your multiple attacks at higher level (also a full round action) you can't use cleave anyway.

Whirlwind attack IS a better feat, requiring more pre-req's (Dodge, Mobility & Spring Attack as opposed to power attack) so that makes sense to me.

2 attacks on same character isn't cleave, it's called 2 weapon fighting or a 6+ BAB.


Brother Willi wrote:


I understand the utility argument to the old Cleave feat, and wouldn't mind seeing some iteration of that in PRPG. But the new one has breathed some much-needed attack power into Melee fighters.

My experience in playtesting is similar to Willi's. The old cleave was not terrible, but just ok depending on situations and only saw limited use. The new Cleave has wide appeal and is used more often. If there was a Greater Cleave to stack,that would be the bomb.


Here is an idea. If Cleave was not that useful of a feat, why not just allow the 5ft step they have to be done between the two attacks. So if they are just standing there getting multiple attacks this could add an even more tactile utility to the fight.


I used the old Cleave quite often, because our DM often had mixed encounters containing bosses and the equivalent of 4E Minions: opponents, hit even with the least attack in the routine and killed by the minimum amount of damage. So Cleave and Great Cleave helped reducing the hordes *and* gave chance to hit the Big Boss.

The PRPG Cleave is good, but becomes crappy at BAB 6. Than Haste and an iterative (always applicable) attack is available. 3 for sure attacks or 1 maybe 2 attacks even with Haste. Easy decision.

Well the new Great Cleave is bogus and unnecessary. It has less prerequesites than Whirlwind Attack, true, but it's the Cleave feat, which is made irrelevant by Great Cleave. Spring Attack is quite useful even if you have Whirlwind Attack. And WA is way better.

The Full-Round-Action makes the difference. Reduce it to a standard-action and it`s useful even on higher levels and not too strong.

In addition to a standard-action Cleave the old Cleave could be added, no real problem. Maybe under the translation of its german names: Double Strike and Roundabout Strike.


Jack Townsend wrote:

I used the old Cleave quite often, because our DM often had mixed encounters containing bosses and the equivalent of 4E Minions: opponents, hit even with the least attack in the routine and killed by the minimum amount of damage. So Cleave and Great Cleave helped reducing the hordes *and* gave chance to hit the Big Boss.

The PRPG Cleave is good, but becomes crappy at BAB 6. Than Haste and an iterative (always applicable) attack is available. 3 for sure attacks or 1 maybe 2 attacks even with Haste. Easy decision.

Well the new Great Cleave is bogus and unnecessary. It has less prerequesites than Whirlwind Attack, true, but it's the Cleave feat, which is made irrelevant by Great Cleave. Spring Attack is quite useful even if you have Whirlwind Attack. And WA is way better.

The Full-Round-Action makes the difference. Reduce it to a standard-action and it`s useful even on higher levels and not too strong.

In addition to a standard-action Cleave the old Cleave could be added, no real problem. Maybe under the translation of its german names: Double Strike and Roundabout Strike.

Adding the old cleave functions to the new sounds like a great idea to me.


Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Adding the old cleave functions to the new sounds like a great idea to me.

I'd prefer making the new Cleave and Great Cleave a standard-action and adding the old versions seperately. The idea of adding more than one maneuver to one feat brings me a painful memory of tactical feats. Two words: not good.


Jack Townsend wrote:
Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Adding the old cleave functions to the new sounds like a great idea to me.
I'd prefer making the new Cleave and Great Cleave a standard-action and adding the old versions seperately. The idea of adding more than one maneuver to one feat brings me a painful memory of tactical feats. Two words: not good.

That would still be inferior to the old cleave. Free>Any Action

Yeah your right, maybe adding it in would be a poor idea.

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