We are heading into Jade Regent soon and I have a player that is thinking about playing a PC that has high knowledge of creatures and maybe Lore.
As a group, we have found that the most enjoyable sessions have more roleplay and story than combat, so having a non-combat oriented PC is fine with us. The challenge for me is (and this goes for all of the PCs) how do I make sure the PC are rolling their skills and knowledge to influence the outcomes of encounters?
By far, most encounters where dice rolling is called for in PF APs are combat focused. You have your occasional bluff/sense motive, or skill check for a chase or a contest. But rarely do I see knowledge checks having a big influence on encounter outcomes. They are used to get hints on which way to go next, what is a creatures weakness, or what type of magic item is it that the party found.
What are some tips on making Knowledge and lore an influencer on the game?
The the second part of my question is - how do I relay lore to the PC? Should I have little paragraphs written up and pass it over to him? Do I share knowledge between game sessions? for simple knowledge checks I can just give the creatures attribute (if check is passed) but what if he passes a check on knowing the lore of Oni or Kami, how do we relay that information?
Thanks for helping me make our adventure fun!
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Well as to the first question: Obviously you have the checks to reveal weaknesses, strengths, etc. However, you can also add in things like "Well these types of creatures are known to lair in . . . " for when the PCs want to track them down, or "The pelts of these creatures are known to fetch a high price . . . " and "these creatures are mortal enemies of . . . " if the PCs are looking to add allies, etc.
As for how to relay the lore "You recall from your days in University that these creatures are noticeably vulnerable to fire-based attacks but that cold based attacks have little to no effect on them."
Obviously you can insert, temple, school, prior adventures, etc. in place of University, but you get the idea.
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Having played a character for many years whose main schtick was being the absolute best at knowledge skills, it did become somewhat of a problem for the GM. What ended up happened most of the time was the onus of how the player knew the facts that the GM relayed to me fell to me. He'd say that I knew that this spear was from the ancient empire of Eriad, which meant that the temple was over 600 years old. But that was just the metagame. My character would then have to explain that, while researching in the temple years ago, he saw similar markings in an ancient Eriad text. Further, my character knew that this temple must be more than 600 years old because the citadel that was stationed here was overrun in 430 PN. It largely came down to trust between player and GM. Since the players are supposed to be just as much a creative force in the story as the GM, it was up to us to establish some history and backstory for things. As long as it didn't conflict with the GM's plans, it became canon.
Things with a PF AP will be a little more strict, but let the player read up on the areas that the adventure will take place in. Let the player know things that normal characters might not yet. And then just trust the player not to metagame that knowledge in without passing the appropriate knowledge checks.
The other thing to remember is that, just because he has a high knowledge skill, it doesn't mean he's omniscient. There are certain things that a player character just wouldn't have access to know without specific circumstances having been fulfilled. It doesn't matter how high your knowledge check is, there is no way to know that King Thrandall has an illegitimate son if, thirty seconds prior, no one in the party had even heard of King Thrandall or the city he was from.
Use knowledge skills as an adventure aid, not as a crutch or a shortcut. Let it give the player an advantage, let the investment count for something, but don't let it ruin an adventure. You wouldn't let someone who heavily invested in Climb, Acrobatics and Swim somehow destroy an entire plot, so don't let Knowledge (Arcana), (History) and (Religion) do it either.
Finally, talk to the player. Find out what aspects of having the high knowledge skills really appeals to him. Does he want to know the weaknesses of monsters? Does he want to be the stuffy academic with lots of book knowledge? Is he a well-traveled character who has heard lots of tales, stories and rumors? Find out how the player sees the character knowing the things he might know and then stick to that formula whenever possible.
Well as to the first question: Obviously you have the checks to reveal weaknesses, strengths, etc. However, you can also add in things like "Well these types of creatures are known to lair in . . . " for when the PCs want to track them down, or "The pelts of these creatures are known to fetch a high price . . . " and "these creatures are mortal enemies of . . . " if the PCs are looking to add allies, etc.
As for how to relay the lore "You recall from your days in University that these creatures are noticeably vulnerable to fire-based attacks but that cold based attacks have little to no effect on them."
Obviously you can insert, temple, school, prior adventures, etc. in place of University, but you get the idea.
These are good suggestions, I appreciate it. I will use these. I also need to think about how to have the knowledge checks impact the story and the PCs decisions. I want the PC to feel like the knowledge checks are important and make a difference beyond just with creature encounters.
Thanks again.
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The GM'ing 101 (or 201, I forget) guide for PFS has Knowledge checks broken into 4 categories of difficulty. For example...
Everyone knows that the Sinclair Mansion is on the west side of town.
Lord Sinclair keeps the front door well guarded with golems.
There's a secret access to a spiral staircase on the south side.
It leads to Sinclair's torture chamber!!
Simple example, I know. But the concept is there. Set your DC's accordingly for each of the 4 checks. So, lets say the DC's are 10, 15, 20 and 25...PC rolls a 16. He gets the first 2 bits of info.
TLDR...have 4 bits of info for everything. Set the DCs for these 4 bits. Higher the roll, more bits they get.
One thing I always did early on in my GM'ing career was to make it clear to my players that some of the monsters in my campaign might be different from the traditional monster. I did this in part for story reasons (one campaign in particular featured a journey to a minotaur island and I intentionally upped the intelligence of minotaurs as an example). However, I also did this in part to avoid the "Well, I know that these creatures are vulnerable to fire and immune to cold, so I'll just use the fire spells this time around" without ever having the PC who has never encountered said critter make a roll. Its a decent way to get around metagaming if any players are particularly bad about that.
One thing I always did early on in my GM'ing career was to make it clear to my players that some of the monsters in my campaign might be different from the traditional monster. I did this in part for story reasons (one campaign in particular featured a journey to a minotaur island and I intentionally upped the intelligence of minotaurs as an example). However, I also did this in part to avoid the "Well, I know that these creatures are vulnerable to fire and immune to cold, so I'll just use the fire spells this time around" without ever having the PC who has never encountered said critter make a roll. Its a decent way to get around metagaming if any players are particularly bad about that.
Great idea. I can also describe creatures and situations in a manner that may be confusing or not quite accurate because it is how someone might perceive it if they don't have knowledge.
I can be vague on descriptions unless they have knowledge.
I just want to make sure the knowledge based PC has plenty have chances to shine outside of combat.
Great idea. I can also describe creatures and situations in a manner that may be confusing or not quite accurate because it is how someone might perceive it if they don't have knowledge.
I can be vague on descriptions unless they have knowledge.
I just want to make sure the knowledge based PC has plenty have chances to shine outside of combat.
The other thing you can do, which might be even better than giving out a vague description in combat, is to have vague descriptions given to the PCs when they are being given a quest, or are researching in an effort to figure out what they are up against. To reference 13th Warrior:
Old Man: "I saw the thing that did this well enough! Teeth like a lion, claws like a bear!"
PC: "Did they walk on two legs or four?"
Old Man: "At times it seemed like it was both! But the worst was when they brought the fire wurm!"
Knowledged Base PC: *to GM* "I'm going to try Knowledge (Nature) to see if I know what the heck he is talking about." *rolls* Uhh, that would be a 27!
GM: Hmmmm, well, that doesn't really resemble any creatures that you've ever studied in any of your texts or training, but something about it sounds familiar. Do you have History?
PC: *rolls* Oooh, that would be a 31!
GM: Yeah, took you a moment, but you recall many a legend about a horde of creatures known as the Wen, or as they are often called, The Eaters of the Dead.
And then you go from there.
Of course, I know nothing about the Jade Regent AP, so not sure how much adaptation you'd have to do to the quests, etc. I find that often works better than using vague descriptions in battle. Doing that can lead to: "Hrmmm, a massive reptilian creature with wings and a large pile of treasure behind it? Why not just say dragon? By the way, what color is it Mr. GM?" But as always, YMMV.
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Skill challenges and making encounters exciting and magical works fine. Like maybe to kill the boss you need to use Use Magic Device to activate the magical scepter which will suck down the boss soul while your friends are trying to keep the boss down from regenerating.
Maybe the boss fight is actually a chase with obstacles. The boss could be an unique quickling or advanced one. Having such a ridiculous speed is sure to make chases across a level/dungeon full of traps very exciting.
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One thing I always did early on in my GM'ing career was to make it clear to my players that some of the monsters in my campaign might be different from the traditional monster. I did this in part for story reasons (one campaign in particular featured a journey to a minotaur island and I intentionally upped the intelligence of minotaurs as an example). However, I also did this in part to avoid the "Well, I know that these creatures are vulnerable to fire and immune to cold, so I'll just use the fire spells this time around" without ever having the PC who has never encountered said critter make a roll. Its a decent way to get around metagaming if any players are particularly bad about that.Great idea. I can also describe creatures and situations in a manner that may be confusing or not quite accurate because it is how someone might perceive it if they don't have knowledge.
I can be vague on descriptions unless they have knowledge.
I just want to make sure the knowledge based PC has plenty have chances to shine outside of combat.
Another option is to allow the character to use knowledge to aid another. Most of the time you have to use the same skill, or make an attack. But I dont see a reason not to allow the use of say knowledge nobility to aid in a diplomacy check with a lord, or knowledge arcana check to tell the ranger where best to shoot a dragon.