Kyrt- i personally like that.
it gives more options for an "all stealth" party than clunky cross-class stuff and non-dex folks trying to sneak around.
we have the ranger, monk, rogue, and bard all able to sneak around.. that's pretty much a decently rounded team. (able to sneak through what a regular team would fight through, so the heavy mage/cleric stuff isn't really needed quite so much).
Would make an interesting group for a campaign :)
-S
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I think when Ross said two weapon fighter he wasn't speaking of "Fighter" but a combatant(probably a rogue, all things considered) using the Two weapon "fighting" feat tree.
Comparing it to a "Fighter" a Ranger, or any other full BAB class simply doesn't stand up.
Am I the only one who finds it funny rogues and monks share the same hit die now? Its almost as if their trying to make the two compare even more closely. Same BAB, same hit die, both more than capable of being sneaky, both capable, under good conditions, of dishing out lots of damage and imposing multiple conditions and impediments on the enemy. The biggest difference between them are skills and saves. (and movement of course.)
If it's a rogue comparison, then (and remember that the Rogue has a lot of out-of-combat goodness that the monk to a large extent doesn't), by the time your Flurry penalty is gone, the Rogue is doing moderately serious Sneak Attack damage (and on just about all enemies, now) when they are flanking or have the enemy flat-footed, which as we know turns out to be 'much of the time'. As they will also be weapon finessing (so getting double value from their prime stat with their to-hit and AC bonus from the same place that will probably make up at least one of that -2 deficit) and now, as you point out, have the same HD, I also think that they're better off (we can argue, of course, the other features; skills and the Rogue Tricks versus the better saves and the movement, etc).
I was referring to any character compared against an 'all other things being equal' two weapon version. A two-weapon fighter has -2 verses a greatsword fighter. A two-weapon ranger has -2 verses a one-handed ranger. A rogue with two short swords has -2 verses a rogue with just a rapier.
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I was referring to any character compared against an 'all other things being equal' two weapon version. A two-weapon fighter has -2 verses a greatsword fighter. A two-weapon ranger has -2 verses a one-handed ranger. A rogue with two short swords has -2 verses a rogue with just a rapier.
But the wider context is the question of how the Monk class measures up in general; MAD is an aspect of the monk that means that the TWF Rogue can mitigate the -2.
At any rate, I agree that a free enhancement bonus for a monk's fist is a good idea. For backwards compatibility, I'd recommend +1 at level 4 and +1 for every 3 levels after that (instead of +1 at level 2), but it doesn't make much difference either way.
At any rate, I agree that a free enhancement bonus for a monk's fist is a good idea. For backwards compatibility, I'd recommend +1 at level 4 and +1 for every 3 levels after that (instead of +1 at level 2), but it doesn't make much difference either way.
The end result of that would be an effective higher BaB than a fighter, except it wouldn't stack with magic weapons.
At any rate, I agree that a free enhancement bonus for a monk's fist is a good idea. For backwards compatibility, I'd recommend +1 at level 4 and +1 for every 3 levels after that (instead of +1 at level 2), but it doesn't make much difference either way.The end result of that would be an effective higher BaB than a fighter, except it wouldn't stack with magic weapons.
Ungh? Are you saying that fighters don't use magic weapons? I'm not sure I get your point.
The only real difference it would make in some games is that the party cleric-or-wizard wouldn't have to cast Greater Magic Weapon every once in a while.
Ungh? Are you saying that fighters don't use magic weapons? I'm not sure I get your point.
Sorry. I should have been more clear. The end result of that change would result in the Monk having a higher 'naked' BaB than a fighter, while at the same time making Amulets of Might Fists, magic Monk weapons, and even magic weapon worthless to a Monk.
In all cases exactly triple the cost.
In Pathfinder, it's actually 2.5x as expensive, not 3x.
But his general point seems fair, right?In all cases exactly triple the cost.In Pathfinder, it's actually 2.5x as expensive, not 3x.
Well, I doubt that's how they came up with the price. I imagine they just eyeballed it and thought "Triple price is about right; there are lots of creatures with a claw/claw/bite attack routine".
I agree that an amulet that only affected a monk's unarmed strike should cost less than 2.5x the cost of a magic sword.
But I also agree with the guy who said that a monk using flurry of blows is quite similar to a TWF fighter (at least at low- to mid-level); note that a monk's attack bonus for a flurry of blows is exactly one less than a comparable ranger using TWF from level 1 to 12, for instance.
I like the idea of ki-straps to enhance the Monk's unarmed attack. Very cool idea.
I do not like the idea of permanently enhancing the unarmed attack in the same manner as a manufactured weapon, except through magic weapon/magic fang spells. Monks can use manufactured weapons that can be enhanced already.
If Monks could enhance their bodies by the same means as manufactured weapons, why not spellcasters that use touch or ranged touch spells?
Another option I would be in favor of would be to make the Ki Strike feature an actual enhancement bonus instead of just for purposes of overcoming DR. An enhancement equal to level/4 would be balanced. +1 at 4th, +2 at 8th, +3 at 12th, +4 at 16th, +5 at 20th.
Special qualities would have to be feat based. There are several good ones in the splat books.
though others will likely shoot it down for making the monk more cost effective.
I don't care if it makes them more cost effective. I think it would make monk weapons and Amulets of Mighty Fists worthless, since they wouldn't stack.
If monks need a +1 to hit for every 4 levels, the cleanest way to do that would be via the fighter BaB, which Jason has said is off limits. Trying to duplicate that via a workaround is just finding a loophole.
It was designed for monks. Otherwise it would be an 'Amulet of Magic Fang' instead of 'Amulet of Mighty Fists'.
Nor is it priced to reflect the benefit to monsters: Monsters have no real wealth guidelines.
It is, however, priced to reflect its benefits to other PCs, notably Druids and their animal companions.
Note that the creator of a weapon with the Ki enhancement has to be a monk (at least 1 monk level).
And with the new Master Craftsman feat, it seems like the Monk will be able to make his own weapons, straight up.
All the more reason there'd be weapons made specifically for monk unarmed strike use.
No. Just no.
Monks can buy magic monk weapons or Amulets of Mighty Fists if they need those bonuses.
If they need them so badly that they can't afford to pay money for them, then the solution is to give them a fighter's BaB, not dupicate the effects of stronger and more attacks via weapon properties.
(Also, your argument that Monks can't use armor is silly: They can use Bracers of Armor, which cost the same per bonus as magic armor.)
No. You don't kmow what you're talking about. Amulets of Mighty Fists are ridiculously expensive.
I was referring to any character compared against an 'all other things being equal' two weapon version. A two-weapon fighter has -2 verses a greatsword fighter. A two-weapon ranger has -2 verses a one-handed ranger. A rogue with two short swords has -2 verses a rogue with just a rapier.But the wider context is the question of how the Monk class measures up in general; MAD is an aspect of the monk that means that the TWF Rogue can mitigate the -2.
Well, it helps that the monk does not have off-hand penalties when TWF with only natural attacks or when using a manufactured weapon in the main hand and a natural weapon for the off-hand attack.
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What we were considering, though, was the flurry of blows, which does have a penalty that decreases with level.
Ross's point in his KQ article is, in any case, in part that monks should really be performing combat manoeuvres given the way that the rules are written (even if you'd prefer to be striking and doing damage that way, as the 1e monk or Bruce Lee, etc). However, as the new CMB rules as currently written make that harder, even if you were OK with playing a manoeuvre monk in 3.5 (and you were convinced by the article's arguments, which I am not particularly myself, especially on the idea of using sunder on held items which is, as CoL points out, a 'break your own stuff' manoeuvre so that not having a sundering monk in the party would make the party's haul better), I am not sure that it's going to be so much fun for you in PFRPG. Myself, I would rather be playing a damage-dealing monk, but the rules aren't written for that, in part because they miss too much.
My friend and DM and I came up with an idea he's using for our current monk friend.
Based on this: WOTC Item Creation Article
we can assume that an amulet already has the 1.5x cost for uncustomary slot placement.
So we decided that as a core item it was a gauntlet of mighty fists (3333 Gold in pathfinder [5000/1.5])
That gives alittle relief in terms of initial purchase cost. Then to bring it in line with what other people pay for their weapons, we said the cost to enhance it beyond that point is parallel to the weapon enhancement chart. So going from a +1 GoMF (Gauntlet of mighty fists) to a +2 should be +6000 (Difference in cost of a +1 weapon to a +2) and so forth. So essentially, +1333 to the cost off the enhancement charts to make a GoMF out of it. What this does is essentially give the monk the weapon benefits at a MUCH reduced cost to what a AoMF provides. Also it frees up his neck slot for more desired items like Amulet of natural armor.
Of course this is on trial basis and may end up with some tweaks as the DM sees fit but the immediate effects are that he was able to afford equipment on par with the rest of the party, he's hitting somewhat better now though sometimes still afflicted to flurry of whiffs (1/2 BaB to thank there) but given that they only do get 1/2 BaB, the cost reduction has not overpowered him at all at this point yet. It's only seen to bring him more in line with the rest of the party in terms of equipment and magical effects. We're well into Rise of the Runelords campaign and I'm sure you can expect a playtest report from ForgottenPrince when we're done.