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I advocate excising the restrictiveness and unnecessary complexity of the following rule, which seems to be an unhelpful relic of 3.5.
I would rewrite as follows:
I've house-ruled this, and it certainly hasn't harmed play balance. Rather, it makes the guy playing a sorcerer happier.
I wouldn't be opposed to that. Or even changed to "Max Spell Level -1" if it's deemed SO necessary.
Either way, it would be clearer to just put it on the Level Progression Table.
Even retaining the "Max Spell Level -2" rule, it could list a bit like "Swap one known spell up to X Spell Level",
at each level you gain a new Spell Level. Fewer "algebra described in english" sentences never hurt readability...
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I've house-ruled this, and it certainly hasn't harmed play balance. Rather, it makes the guy playing a sorcerer happier.
That sounds like an awesome change.
Sometimes the spells that were indispensible at 1st level turns out to be not so useful at 5th level, and completely redundant at 10th.
Then again, I'm a huge fan of being able to 'retrain' feats as well, and even swap a skill point or two around. We always unofficially allowed such things, but having it blessed as part of the rules would be nice.
The retraining of a spell up to max level at every gained level works great. It has been used in most of the games I have played in. Getting stuck with spells that were needed early on hurts terribly. It does grant some much needed flexibility to a good class without going overboard.
I agree, this is a rule that severely punishes new players without really helping the game in any significant way. Actually, a much simpler edit would be just to eliminate the two levels lower clause:
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the sorcerer loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.
To be honest I've actually been much more lenient than this when a player's made bad choices. Because ultimately a sorcerer running around with a crappy spell choice punishes everyone, the player, his teammates, heck even the DM to some extent.
As I read this a thought just popped into my head. What if you make spell swapping alittle more organic but not tied to level. Say replacing a spell could be done via a ritual that would be similar to item creation. You want to replace a third level, then it take the same time, money, and xp as creating a scroll of the same level. You can get out of a bad choice this way, and it even allows for some limited prep, but cost should be such to prevent it from being abused. Cost of time/gold/xp might have to be adjusted for better balance.
I just thought of this about 1 minute ago, so I don't know if it's worthwhile but I'll throw it out there.
sounds like a good ideal to me
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Hmm.. I kinda like this change... Although I think I might keep the limit to level -1 (instead of -2).
Thoughts
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
If you're going to relax the restriction to [max spell level-1], then you may as well remove the restrictive clause entirely.
In practice, the spell being swapped is always going to be at least one level lower than [max spell level], since you make the swap at the same time you get your new [max level] spells. If you didn't want a spell of your max level, you simply wouldn't pick it in the first place.
Given the new bloodline rules, you need a clause that prevents the bonus bloodline spells being swapped. These are, presumably, more central to the sorceror's core nature?
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I think allowing a sorcerer to change a spell choice is reasonable, because bad choices make the game less fun.
For any class feature, I let a character 'retrain' for two weeks of down time, and they can retrain once per level. So they could change a cleric domain, any one known spell as a sorcerer, a ranger's favored enemy, etc. There's no XP cost, no gp cost, no limitation -- except the down time (preventing frivolous swapping) and the limit to one change per level (preventing frivolous swapping).
I can post my retraining rules if anyone likes, as they have been put to good use in our game.
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Hmm.. I kinda like this change...
Jason; have you seen the "Sorcerer: Unstagger The Casting" thread?
It seems several posters independently came up with the compromise idea of granting those bonus bloodline spells earlier, so they're the first spells learnt of that level, and the sorceror doesn't have to wait to fulfil his theme.
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I like this also, and agree that bloodline spells need to be made un-replaceable. I do think that keeping a limit of Max spell level -1 is needed, if you're going to allow this at every level, since some levels you don't gain a new max spell level.
Yes, that's true, if you increase it to a swap every level, then you need the clause.
If the swap remains at each even level, then it sorts itself out.
Bloodline spells are already un-replaceable. Beta, p.42, under Bloodlines:
"These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher level"
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I can post my retraining rules if anyone likes, as they have been put to good use in our game.
I would be interested. Do it in a spoiler.
I do think that keeping a limit of Max spell level -1 is needed, if you're going to allow this at every level, sicne some levels you don't gain a new max spell level.
I don't follow your line of argument. Even if your max spell level doesn't increase when you go up a Sor level, I don't see a compelling reason why you couldn't swap out any one spell of your choice. I think it's much preferable to be able to swap out one of your highest level spells. For example, when you become a 7th level Sor, why should you remain saddled with that 3rd level spell you regret picking?
Further, I advocate getting rid of a -2, or -1, spell level limitation for the additional benefit of just simplifying the rule.
Hmm.. I kinda like this change... Although I think I might keep the limit to level -1 (instead of -2).
It certainly helps. But you are still kind of screwed if you make the mistake of learning your bloodline spell at 1st level. You won't be able to retrain it until 4th level then.
I'm sorry but that sort of mistake borders on stupid to me (not calling anyone such, just saying it borders it) and stupidity should be painful! ;D Let him suffer for 3 more levels, teach him to actually read the text instead of jumping the gun.
I'm sorry but that sort of mistake borders on stupid to me (not calling anyone such, just saying it borders it) and stupidity should be painful! ;D Let him suffer for 3 more levels, teach him to actually read the text instead of jumping the gun.
The whole idea that a player is punished by the game system for choosing a spell associated with his bloodline too early seems like an oversight in the system to me. If it's not fixed in the hardcover I will house rule around it in a heartbeat because it encourages poor role playing and meta gaming.
The fact that you think it's a good idea to punish new players for a mistake like that seems pretty petty to me.
Yeah it is, and I don't disagree with you on that.
However I do agree with you that the player shouldn't be punished by the system for a simple oversight when he is just starting a character (indeed maybe even just starting the game). As a DM I would probably roll my eyes and let him change spells also even if it wasn't 'in the rules', my comments on the internet not withstanding.
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The bloodline bonus spell's should be a short list to choose one from, the way the Ranger feats are now. That will solve the problem of taking the spell early, you can you just pick a different spell when you get to the bonus level.
As for the retraining of spells, the Sorcerer is still going to be restricted in the number of spells they can know so letting them swap is not going to be a huge deal. Limit it to one spell a level, no maximum level of spell. The one spell a level lets the player fix bad spells and won't let them really ramp up for each adventure by switching to all cold spells when they think its a fire based adventure for instance.
I have seen the one spell per level replacement option in print many places as an optional rule and used it myself as a DM in multiple campaign's and more recently as a player a few campaigns back. Its never created even the slightest problem. I would be very in favor of it being made permanent to core rules. I think it is minor enough in terms of rules abuse potential to be virtually a non issue, but can be huge for a player stuck with a spell that is obsolete to the character due to the unforseen.
Hmm.. I kinda like this change... Although I think I might keep the limit to level -1 (instead of -2).
Thoughts
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Count me in for this.
But I also agree with Brutesquad07 (and many others) that the Bloodline spells should include some limited choices like the Ranger and Monk feats (in order to avoid the unnecessary punishment for the Sorcerer who chooses the 'signature' spell of his Bloodline too early).
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I would be interested. Do it in a spoiler.
I've never done a spoiler cut before ... let's see ...
TRAINING YOUR CHARACTER
Characters who study, research, train, or meditate may gain 1d6 x (Int/Wis/Cha) Modifier (whichever is highest) experience points per week. This is good for advancing sedentary characters or NPCS.
RETRAINING YOUR CHARACTER
If at any point, you decide you have not made appropriate choices, you may choose to retrain certain aspects of your character. These changes require dedicated contemplation, study, or pursuit of the character’s new interests.
Retraining requires the character not spend any time engaged in strenuous or demanding activities, such as adventuring, magic item creation, spell research, traveling, or the like.
All changes to a character must be ‘backwards-compatable’. If a 12th level character retrains 4 levels of wizard for 4 levels of fighter, not only must they give back skill points, they must ensure their total skill points used are a valid build option for their current configuration, as if the character had never had those 4 levels of wizard. Likewise, if a character retrains a feat, they must have been able to take all their feats and meet their various prerequisites in some sort of legal and valid order.
If a character comes back from the dead, via raise dead, or some similar magic, they may change one thing about their character (a feat, a class level, or the like) should they choose.
Ability Scores: A character may choose to reallocate 2 points of any ability scores in exchange with a month of retraining. This can only be performed once per level.
If a character changes their ability scores to no longer qualify for a class feature or feat prerequisite, they lose access to those abilities requiring that ability score immediately.
Class: A class level may be changed if a character wishes to substitute a class level for another, they may do by spending a month in study. The character must ‘give back’ their class skill points, class abilities, and bonus feats. This can only be performed once per level.
If a character wishes to retrain their specialized wizard class, they must ‘give back’ all levels of the class and replace them.
Class Features: A character may retrain a class feature, such as a ranger’s choice of favored enemy, an advanced rogue talent, a sorcerer's spell choice, or a cleric’s domain choice by spending two weeks of retraining. If the class feature bestows a bonus feat on the character, it must be retrained as a feat below. This can only be performed once per level.
Skills: A character may retrain up to 4 skill points by spending a week of retraining. If a character is reallocating skill points to learn a new language, they must have a tutor or other source of the new language. This can only be performed once per level.
Feats: A character may retrain a feat by spending two weeks of retraining. This can only be performed once per level.
How's that? :)
This is only a tangent, but is there a feat that allows a sorcerer expanded spell knowledge? If not, it sounds like a good idea and could lessen the burden of needing to switch spells.
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I'm sorry but that sort of mistake borders on stupid to me (not calling anyone such, just saying it borders it) and stupidity should be painful! ;D Let him suffer for 3 more levels, teach him to actually read the text instead of jumping the gun.The whole idea that a player is punished by the game system for choosing a spell associated with his bloodline too early seems like an oversight in the system to me. If it's not fixed in the hardcover I will house rule around it in a heartbeat because it encourages poor role playing and meta gaming.
It's not even necessarily a "mistake." Consider, for instance, a draconic bloodline sorcerer who decides to try for the "meleeist" angle via claws. Realizing that she will likely be in combat on a regular basis, she decides she wants to have mage armor right from the get-go. Problem is, she gets mage armor from her bloodline - at 3rd level. Does she try to survive two levels without it? Or does she take it at chargen and essentially lose the benefit of her bloodline at 3rd?
A very good point. I usually just buy some armor and keep my fingers crossed when I go to cast a spell.
However this is already covered (IMO).
After all I've yet to see where it says you can't take the same spell as a spell known twice. Maybe not smart in the long run, but that is what the player is doing in these circumstances.
You just replace the spell known that you chose at first level when you get to fourth level. Since you are of that bloodline you then get the spell back as a spell known becuase it was given to you at level 3. Yes you have to live for one level down a spell known, but you got what you wanted from the get go, so it's something of a trade off.
It's not even necessarily a "mistake." Consider, for instance, a draconic bloodline sorcerer who decides to try for the "meleeist" angle via claws. Realizing that she will likely be in combat on a regular basis, she decides she wants to have mage armor right from the get-go. Problem is, she gets mage armor from her bloodline - at 3rd level. Does she try to survive two levels without it? Or does she take it at chargen and essentially lose the benefit of her bloodline at 3rd?I'm sorry but that sort of mistake borders on stupid to me (not calling anyone such, just saying it borders it) and stupidity should be painful! ;D Let him suffer for 3 more levels, teach him to actually read the text instead of jumping the gun.The whole idea that a player is punished by the game system for choosing a spell associated with his bloodline too early seems like an oversight in the system to me. If it's not fixed in the hardcover I will house rule around it in a heartbeat because it encourages poor role playing and meta gaming.
Exactly, you could easily argue that having it at levels 1-2 is more important than having some other spell at levels 3-6. Without mage armor the 'melee' sorcerer might not see level 3.
I'm confused Dennis, I thought I covered that.
After all I've yet to see where it says you can't take the same spell as a spell known twice. Maybe not smart in the long run, but that is what the player is doing in these circumstances.
You just replace the spell known that you chose at first level when you get to fourth level. Since you are of that bloodline you then get the spell back as a spell known becuase it was given to you at level 3. Yes you have to live for one level down a spell known, but you got what you wanted from the get go, so it's something of a trade off.
If I made a mistake or missed something, could you point it out please... cause I'm still missing it! ;D
I'm confused Dennis, I thought I covered that.
I wasn't really responding to your comment at that point... just commenting on the current state of affairs.
ok cool, thought I had pulled a stupid.
A choice from at least two bonus spells at those levels would prevent an enemy who guessed your bloodline from automatically knowing a quarter of your spell list.
And increase variety.