Hi,
After playtesting I do not like the grappling system in 3P. I feel it was OK before. A touch attack followed by opposed grapple check. And ranged characters having a chance to hit allies inside the grapple.
The best compromise I feel would be OK is to bring back the touch attack but after that make the grapple check be like now but 10+CMB of the target.
Or put in explanations that when going to grapple targets under concealment or total concealment you get a penalty to your grapple check (-2 or -5 for concealment, and -5 or -10 for total concealment).
Also the size bonuses to CMB are just too low and pathetic. Large only getting +1??? That is not balanced at all. +2 should be minimal with Huge then getting +5, Gargantuan +10 and Colossal +20. Same for smaller targets.
As it is now a halfling with high Dex can easily grapple an Ogre or a Hill Giant (there is only 2 difference for size between them??????).
And if any of these complaints fall on deaf ears at least change the +5 bonus after keeping the grapple to round 2 to +2 bonus (or +1 to follow the size bonuses :P)
Also the size bonuses to CMB are just too low and pathetic. Large only getting +1??? That is not balanced at all.
Huh? What would you balance it against?
As it is now a halfling with high Dex can easily grapple an Ogre or a Hill Giant (there is only 2 difference for size between them??????).
A halfling with high Dex and the Agile Manoeuvres feat will have a half-decent chance to grapple an ogre with his DC 24 combat manoeuvre DC. (A first-level halfling will have +5 on that check, tops, though, so he'll need to roll a 19 or 20 to do it)
I think that's okay: He trained grappling with his dexterity and knows the necessary locks and grips and whatever.
It might be funny, but not more funny than a halfling fighter taking a huge dragon to pieces. And that can happen in D&D.
Beyond that the "not more than 1 size larger than you rule" means that you don't have to worry about that medium barbarian doing the superman with your huge iron golem. So that halfling... he's not grappling the orge...
Halfling = small
Orge = Large
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I have run a grappling fiasco in my game. Attempting to grapple a bard (yes not an ogre or a grapple built fighter or a dragon or anything that you would expect to be hard to grapple but a bard) in a playtest my party failed with pretty good rolls.
I have been thinking about this for a while. I came up with something, haven't had a chance to run numbers, but I think it may help.
CMB = Base Attack Bonus + Str Modifier + Dex Modifier + Size Modifier + Racial modifier
Combat maneuvers = D20+your CMB vs 10 + opponents CMB
This is my Logic. Adding the dex will help add in the "touch" aspect of the AC without adding the second roll back in. Yes you wouldn't get deflection or dodge bonus, but the essence is still there. Giant's who are probably pretty good at grapple would still be, since their strength is amazing, but if anything their dex tends to be a non factor. Characters who are Dex based will be able to get involved, or survive perhaps, a grapple check, or a Trip attack or even a bull rush as they can move out of the way faster, or adjust quicker when an opponent tries to move out of the way.
CMB = Base Attack Bonus + Str Modifier + Dex Modifier + Size Modifier + Racial modifier
Combat maneuvers = D20+your CMB vs 10 + opponents CMB
Yes, I strongly agree with this! Having played the chain fighter in 3.5e, I am glad I did it then and not under the current CMB rule set. That character would've had a VERY short career.
CMB = Base Attack Bonus + Str Modifier + Dex Modifier + Size Modifier + Racial modifier
Combat maneuvers = D20+your CMB vs 10 + opponents CMB
That's what we use in both of the PF gaming tables I'm at. :)
CMB = Base Attack Bonus + Str Modifier + Dex Modifier + Size Modifier + Racial modifier
Combat maneuvers = D20+your CMB vs 10 + opponents CMB
That's a good idea. At least, reducing DC to 10+opponent's CMB is a must. I simply don't see much place for the current combat maneuvers in battles, where PCs are actually threatened - they are too hard to pull off and their benefits, in most situations, barely justify spending an action in the first place.
Actually, grappling takes out one opponent out of the combat. And then pinning that one takes it ever further.
What are you talking about? you are comparing lvl 1 character with a hill giant?
Please do not post if you have nothing worthy to say.
Grappling also takes you out of combat. And you are unlikely to succeed against any respectable opponent. As a good news, you are somewhat less likely to be pwned by big Improved Grabbing monsters, and that, I suspect is the rationalization behind the grapple nerf (except high DC does not contribute to this nearly as much, as reduction in size modifers). But as an offensive tactics grapple it is simply not viable in PBeta, except at the few starting levels, where you actually can run into serious Tiny opponents and unprepared spellcasters that aren't easier to simply stab in the face.
The part I just can't wrap my mind around is that if you're good enough to grapple an opponent 50% of the time, that opponent is good enough to break out of the grapple 5% of the time. Huh? Why is there such a big chance of dropping your opponent on your turn when he can't break out of the grapple on his own turn?
That, and the fact that a grapple takes a standard action now. Ugh.
Please do not post if you have nothing worthy to say.
Less of this please. You can still get your point across while posting politely.
The part I just can't wrap my mind around is that if you're good enough to grapple an opponent 50% of the time, that opponent is good enough to break out of the grapple 5% of the time. Huh? Why is there such a big chance of dropping your opponent on your turn when he can't break out of the grapple on his own turn?
That, and the fact that a grapple takes a standard action now. Ugh.
I am not sure what you mean by this. Is this connected to the fixed DC for maneuvers?
I am not sure what you mean by this. Is this connected to the fixed DC for maneuvers?The part I just can't wrap my mind around is that if you're good enough to grapple an opponent 50% of the time, that opponent is good enough to break out of the grapple 5% of the time. Huh? Why is there such a big chance of dropping your opponent on your turn when he can't break out of the grapple on his own turn?
That, and the fact that a grapple takes a standard action now. Ugh.
If A has a CMB of +5 and B has a CMB of +0, then A has a 55% chance of continuing to grapple B (i.e. he fails 45% of the time and B breaks free). But if B tries to break free on his turn, then he has a 5% chance of succeeding at a grapple check. Why is B 9 times better at breaking free on A's turn?
put me down as in favor as well.
Yes, I strongly agree with this! Having played the chain fighter in 3.5e, I am glad I did it then and not under the current CMB rule set. That character would've had a VERY short career.CMB = Base Attack Bonus + Str Modifier + Dex Modifier + Size Modifier + Racial modifier
Combat maneuvers = D20+your CMB vs 10 + opponents CMB
If A has a CMB of +5 and B has a CMB of +0, then A has a 55% chance of continuing to grapple B (i.e. he fails 45% of the time and B breaks free). But if B tries to break free on his turn, then he has a 5% chance of succeeding at a grapple check. Why is B 9 times better at breaking free on A's turn?I am not sure what you mean by this. Is this connected to the fixed DC for maneuvers?The part I just can't wrap my mind around is that if you're good enough to grapple an opponent 50% of the time, that opponent is good enough to break out of the grapple 5% of the time. Huh? Why is there such a big chance of dropping your opponent on your turn when he can't break out of the grapple on his own turn?
That, and the fact that a grapple takes a standard action now. Ugh.
Actually after the first round the A gets additional +5 to his check so the chance for B to break free now falls to 20%. Still better then 5%.
It is a problem. Fixed DC should go away. If less randomness is wanted from rolling d20, the opposed check could be done with d10.
Haven't tested beta rules for grappling yet but, from what I've read from you guys, I'm disappointed.
DMing a small 4.0 test campaign all I can say is fourth edition rules are what I'd expect from it: easy to run.
CMB = Base Attack Bonus + Str Modifier + Dex Modifier + Size Modifier + Racial modifier
Perhaps this is a good idea. One of my player has a DEX-heavy rogue and complained about not being able to use his DEX instead of STR when calculating CMB (at least without burning a feat slot...)
This is like the 15th time I've seen people complaining abut CMB not being good for DEX fighters.
Have any of you seen the Agile Manuevers feat?
It's like the first feat listed.
Jesus.
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This is like the 15th time I've seen people complaining abut CMB not being good for DEX fighters.
Have any of you seen the Agile Manuevers feat?
It's like the first feat listed.
Which requires a fighter using DEX instead of the stupid bruiser STR fighter to burn a feat to be able to use DEX...
It should be a choice at character creation
STR or DEX.
Just because an Ogre attempts to grab the halfling doesn't mean the halfing should be forced to break out of this with STR instead of ducking between the ogre's legs...unless the halfling takes a feat...while the STR fighter uses that feat for Combat Manuever Defense...or any other feat...it's a strike against DEX fighters...
Just something that A LOT of us have a problem with...don't get so upset when you don't agree with people.
Which requires a fighter using DEX instead of the stupid bruiser STR fighter to burn a feat to be able to use DEX...
It should be a choice at character creation
STR or DEX.
Just because an Ogre attempts to grab the halfling doesn't mean the halfing should be forced to break out of this with STR instead of ducking between the ogre's legs...unless the halfling takes a feat...while the STR fighter uses that feat for Combat Manuever Defense...or any other feat...it's a strike against DEX fighters...
Just something that A LOT of us have a problem with...don't get so upset when you don't agree with people.
Just thought I'd point out how that could sound... Apparently your DEX fighter is a better build than the STR fighter and your feathers were ruffled enough to get into insults.
I guess a few points here, in the rules there is no size difference cap (I just looked at the PFRPG pdf, it isn't in there with the combat rules of grapple). There is one in the improved grab ability from most monsters however (so that may be where you read it), unless there other rules out there buried in a post.
In regards to the DEX vs STR, I think people are focusing on the CMB equation too much for dex characters in regards to the I'm a dex character so "escaping a grapple should be easy/I shouldn't get grappled" as well. Between the extra stat bonuses, skill consolidation and extra skill points for favored class, the skill Escape Artist is much more "cost effective" as a means for getting out of a grapple as well as being reasonably explained (that pesky halfling always seemed to squirm right out the of giants hands everytime the giant thought he finally had him) and not requiring a feat to factor in your dex. It is a matter of "fluff" and the same rule can be explained multiple different ways in terms of "fluff" depending on the spin you want to give it.
As for it being a choice at character creation, it is. There is a feat that allows you to use your DEX. Feats are a dime a dozen now, everyone has more of them, the fighter probably has too many to be honest (more feat slots than useful feats in most cases end game). So I am going to have to say that isn't actually a "strike" against the DEX fighter. The rules are there, if you want to play that "type" of character, they made sure it was possible. A strike against the DEX fighter would be not being able to use their DEX at all, and that simply isn't the case. The only real argument I see is that you have to put the feat choice earlier rather than later and delay a possibly more useful feat a level to take advantage of your DEX right away (weapon finesse vs agile combat for instance at first level when you have a feat you absolutely want and you aren't human). And that can be said for more builds than not, it is just a matter of prioritizing your feats, so it isn't just a "DEX fighter" issue like you make it out to be.
It isn't like I have to blow a feat to use my fists in combat (Unarmed combat), or to make my AC better (Combat expertise) or do more damage with my weapon (Power attack) or to use that neat double bladed sword weapon (Exotic weapon prof.)... Oh wait I do. Agile Maneuvers could even be seen as a better investment than some of those feats because it is effective in multiple situations (trip, grapple, dodge, overrun, etc.) as opposed to just being able to use a nifty weapon (instead of two seperated weapons).
I personally like the new rules, though to be honest I wish there was a size limitation to grappling. I mean I know it is a "fantasy game" but the halfling who can consistently grapple a ogre or giant with mediocre rolls when physically he/she probably couldn't even get their arms around the targets ankle... It goes way beyond the "suspension of disbelief" required to get into the game. I like that the new rules consolidate the the rolls into one stat (the one favored by the typical melee classes) and places them firmly in the "if you aren't a combatant (good BAB and good stats for it) it is unlikely to work" zone, I like that the combat actions are more difficult to pull off at lower levels (gets rid of of some of the broken trip and grapple builds from the last edition) and seems to make them less consistent (smaller bonuses) as they seem to scale a bit better on both sides.
I mean if a system fixes so many of these flaws at the cost of a feat for some builds I can't say it is bad. And as I said before you are getting how many EXTRA feats now with PFRPG? It isn't even cost at that point in comparison to 3.5, its opportunity cost is less than a feat, less than a trait, if you even can call it a cost because it is all bonus above what you would normally have.
The only thing I can honestly say I would like out of it is a weight or size limit as I mentioned before. At some point it becomes less "grapple" and more "hanging on" ineffectually...
