So I've been poking around with a draconic blooded melee sorcerer. It is a very fun class, mage armor, a decent dex, dodge, weapon finesse, arcane strike overall make him really fun and able to add to the parties melee capacity while somewhat keeping his relevance as a caster. In particular his 2 claws are great since they are the only low level dual weapon that doesn't suffer from -2 to hit.
As he levels up he is able to stay fairly relevant in melee by taking melee friendly feats... but then as he continues to level up his defenses scale but his poor BAB really starts to burn him. By 8th-10th level the sorcerer is almost completely irrelevant in melee.
The fact that the sorcerer is so effective at levels 1-5 encourages players to take melee friendly feats and steer the character towards at least a supplemental melee role... as the saying goes "it's a trap". By 8th level the player has 3-4+ melee friendly feats but is still completely unable to do anything in melee.
Now I don't expect that the sorcerer is going to be as good as the fighter in melee... or even in the ballpark, but they be able to be relevant through the life of the character. As thing sit right now it seems like the melee bloodlines are designed as a gateway into the Dragon Discipline. This is fine I suppose for the draconic bloodline characters but rest of the melee sorcerers not so much.
So... is the sorcerer intended to be a melee character? If it is shouldn't there be a clear path for him to be relevant past 6-8th level?
I'm going to end with a couple of suggestions:
- Move the sorcerer, or at least the melee bloodlines to Medium BAB progression in line with the other martial casters (Cleric, Druid, Bard)
- If the BAB progression isn't possible maybe give the claws an attack bonus with a progression that keeps up. This progression should not be an enchantment bonus so it can stack with magic item bonuses.
- Additional feats: Perhaps something similar to Arcane strike that helps with the casters attack bonus.
- Eliminate the melee options which lure players into sub-optimal character choices.
|
I see your point about it being a trap -- this is one of my pet peeves with a number of the Beta combat feats, which appear to offer a bonus but actually reduce most characters' average damage output.
So -- making it seem like a melee sorcerer is possible at low levels = bad. But at the same time, why not use the battle sorcerer variant from UA (which I've argued should be a core option in Pathfinder). I'd think that a battle sorcerer (draconic bloodline)->dragon disciple would make a pretty bad-ass melee sorcerer. You'd lose out on 9th level spells, I think, but it would help with the BAB, hps and armor.
I LOVE the battle sorcerer variant and it's definitely a long term house rule in my camp. The battle sorcerer would go a long way to differentiating the sorcerer from the wizard.
Regardless, right now the draconic bloodline seems tied to the Dragon Disciple PrC and the rest of the melee bloodlines are more or less dead ends. Another option which would actually net the sorcerer a higher BAB is going Eldritch Knight, this gives an option for non-draconic sorcerers but I really don't care for the idea of a base class that dead ends.
*grumble post monster grumble*
To sum up - It looks like you're mainly lacking Attack bonus before getting Tensor's Transformation, since Stoneskin/Fireshield easily handle defense and even some offensive damage. While spells tend to get more outwardly focused as they get more powerful (obliterate the enemy instead of power-up you), here are some suggestions:
3rd - Haste, Heroism, Ray of Exhaustion (-6 to Dex), Slow (-AC), Rage
4th - Black Tentacles (entangled/grappled opponents easier to hit), Bestow Curse (-6 dex), Greater Invis and Greater Magic Weapon (if not claws), Mass Enlarge (not new but spell option), and the 'Morph' spells that are available at 4th.
5th - I got nothing - Transmute Rock to Mud seems to be the best thing to get a bonus. Plenty of battlefield control to limit *who* you're fighting though (Bigby's Interposing Hand, Wall of Force/Stone).
|
As someone who loves to play gish characters, I think there is a huge area for enhancment in the self-buff area of spells. Other than a very very few notable exceptions, there are few useful high level gish spells made for melee arcane casters. I find myself having a hard time finding melee enhancing spells after 4th level's beautiful Greater Mirror Image.
*grumble post monster grumble*
To sum up - It looks like you're mainly lacking Attack bonus before getting Tensor's Transformation, since Stoneskin/Fireshield easily handle defense and even some offensive damage. While spells tend to get more outwardly focused as they get more powerful (obliterate the enemy instead of power-up you), here are some suggestions:
3rd - Haste, Heroism, Ray of Exhaustion (-6 to Dex), Slow (-AC), Rage
4th - Black Tentacles (entangled/grappled opponents easier to hit), Bestow Curse (-6 dex), Greater Invis and Greater Magic Weapon (if not claws), Mass Enlarge (not new but spell option), and the 'Morph' spells that are available at 4th.
5th - I got nothing - Transmute Rock to Mud seems to be the best thing to get a bonus. Plenty of battlefield control to limit *who* you're fighting though (Bigby's Interposing Hand, Wall of Force/Stone).
These are all good but many help everyone in the party and very few actually address the bigger problem of actually hitting the targets in question. Having a 10th level character with an attack bonus of +10 AFTER all your combat buffs means you are hitting 50% of the time at best. By comparison, the other martial casters have better buffs, a higher BAB plus the option to upgrade their magic weapons. Druids in particular really shine as Melee casters compared to the sorcerer.
I agree with your sentiment, Dennis, that the base classes should not be "dead-ends"
Dragon Disciple obviously works well with Draconic, and I could see similiar ones for other Bloodlines,
but I don't think we're really going to see those in the Core Book.
In any case, even Draconic Bloodline should really work by itself at all levels.
At the same time, look at ones like Elemental. Are they REALLY going to be using their 1st level power alot @ 15th level?
Action Economy would suggest otherwise... So I don't think Claws NECESSARILY need to be "viable" at all levels, either.
Like you said, the problem is really that since it seems to work pretty great at low levels, players are prone to invest most of their Feats in order to make the most of it, and stretch it's usefulness out for as long as they can...
Which is ultimately a waste of Feats by 15th level. (it only works with the Dragon Disciple PrC)
The Claws could be made Touch Attacks, but that really just pushes out the level at which they become non-viable,
since two attacks falls behind Iterative Attacks anyways.
Dragon Disciple is an easy out for Draconic Bloodlines, but without it, it would be in the same boat as the other Claw Bloodlines.
The thing is, if you DON'T get sucked in by the low-level melee and invest all your Feats into maximizing it,
then these Bloodlines all still work at high level. Perhaps it should just be left to players/DMs themselves:
if their caster ends up investing all their Feats in Melee, by mid-levels, they'll just need to switch, into Dragon Disciple,
or an equivalent PrC when available, or maybe just a Blackguard or other "Fighter" base class...???
Look to the Abyssal Sorcerer for your melee Sorcerer.
Or perhaps the Dragon Disciple.
The difference between elemental 1st level powers and claws is that sorcerers can take spells which are better rays than those gained form a bloodline (scorching ray comes to mind), but there aren't any good spells that grant better claws than bloodline claws are.
A solution to the attack bonus problem would be to give the sorcerer a racial bonus to attack rolls with natural weapons gained from a bloodline. This bonus should either be +1 at first level and +1 at each odd level so it mimics full BAB, or +1 at 3rd level and +1 every four levels after 3rd, so it mimics cleric BAB.
My wife built her arcane trickster out of an (aberrant) bloodline sorcerer, and uses the reach ability too very good effect. I too wish the claws weren't such a trap.
|
|
A solution to the attack bonus problem would be to give the sorcerer a racial bonus to attack rolls with natural weapons gained from a bloodline. This bonus should either be +1 at first level and +1 at each odd level so it mimics full BAB, or +1 at 3rd level and +1 every four levels after 3rd, so it mimics cleric BAB.
The consensus (?) seems to be that the melee bloodline powers, combined with some low-level feats, are sufficient until mid-high levels. Why not make a high-level feat, with prerequisites requiring the appropriate bloodline and lots of caster levels, that grants full BAB for claw attacks. Both dragons and outsiders get +1 BAB/HD, so it makes sense in that way, ie., your fiendish claws take on a life of their own in combat.
Becuase even then you are still hosed on dealing damaged. With a poor BAB you're looking at +10 to hit, tops. Throw on some greater magic weapon (doesn't work, claws are natural weapons, need greater magic fang), some good strength booster and what have you, and you are still only looking at +25ish. It's just not enough to get the hit to land, you're better off casting chill touch and using it's touch attack round after round.
Becuase even then you are still hosed on dealing damaged. With a poor BAB you're looking at +10 to hit, tops. Throw on some greater magic weapon (doesn't work, claws are natural weapons, need greater magic fang), some good strength booster and what have you, and you are still only looking at +25ish. It's just not enough to get the hit to land, you're better off casting chill touch and using it's touch attack round after round.
I don't think the sorcerer should be in the class of damage dealing that the martial characters are in. Maybe if they go Dragon Disciple they should be in the ballpark but a 10th level sorcerer doing 2 claw attacks with 1d8 +1d6(energy) +2(Arcane Strike) attacks per round is Ok with me. I'm more concerned with the fact that those attacks have such a slim change of hitting.
One thought I had that would help a bit is giving the sorcerer druid and/ or cleric spells in their bonus spells. Also adding monster feats to their bonus feat list such as "Improved Natural Attack" would help.
As things stand now UMD is probably going to be the melee sorcerer's best friend at middle to higher levels. Druidic wands will be the only way he'll have access to spells like Greater Magic Fang, Barkskin, etc. which will be pretty important to him.
I'd add to the claws the following sentence (in parallel to the monk unarmed strike):
"These claws are treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."
The way I see it, if BAB is your problem, which it should be, since you're going to want multiple attacks at some point, you're looking at taking some Fighter and Eldritch Knight levels.
And that's all there is to it. The melee arcanist is fully supported in Pathfinder by the Eldritch Knight.
-Matt
The way I see it, if BAB is your problem, which it should be, since you're going to want multiple attacks at some point, you're looking at taking some Fighter and Eldritch Knight levels.
And that's all there is to it. The melee arcanist is fully supported in Pathfinder by the Eldritch Knight.
Indeed... but then what is the point of having the claws in the first place? They are like nipples on a bull. Also, Jason has stated that it is his intention for the sorcerer to be a "possible threat in melee" (see quote below).
This is exactly the type of roll I was hoping to see some sorcerers fulfill. The finesse, specialist combatant. Skilled with spells, but with enough prep time, a possible threat in melee.
I do not think I am quite there yet, but the sorcerer is coming along in that direction (well.. some of the bloodlines anyway, others have a different focus).
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
One thought I had that would help a bit is giving the sorcerer druid and/ or cleric spells in their bonus spells. Also adding monster feats to their bonus feat list such as "Improved Natural Attack" would help.
This is a great idea, thanks for reminding me, Dennis!
This would really help define the Bloodlines vs. Wizard Schools.Celestial is a great candidate here, obviously...
One thought I had that would help a bit is giving the sorcerer druid and/ or cleric spells in their bonus spells. Also adding monster feats to their bonus feat list such as "Improved Natural Attack" would help.This is a great idea, thanks for reminding me, Dennis!
This would really help define the Bloodlines vs. Wizard Schools.
Celestial is a great candidate here, obviously...
Actually, now that I look at it the celestial bloodline has Flamestrike which isn't on the Wizard/ Sorcerer list already.
Indeed... but then what is the point of having the claws in the first place?
You are correct, that there really isn't much of one, due to ever-growing BAB differential. In a system without 3.5 Divine Power and with iterative attacks, there's no substitute for BAB (barring Tenser's Transformation and Skillful weapons from Complete Arcane), since only BAB gives you iteratives, while bonuses to hit from spells don't.
Unless we turn the Sorcerer into a 3/4 BAB class, which is a very bad idea. In the end, multiclassing and Eldritch Knight are the way to go.
-Matt
The consensus (?) seems to be that the melee bloodline powers, combined with some low-level feats, are sufficient until mid-high levels.
They aren't. Strength is sorcerer's tertiary stat. Even with equal Strength, both of his claws do only marginally better damage that a single attack with a two-handed sword. But he is less likely to hit with them. A sorcerer also suffers from awful HP and has problems with early access to a good combination of protective/mobility spells. At levels 3, he doesn't even have mirror image yet - but is supposed to melee ogres and ghasts as their equal. (And let's not even touch truly brutal low-CR melee brutes). He also isn't as good at catching ranged opponents, as he seems - he needs full attack to utilize his claws. In other words, you shouldn't melee with sorcerer, unless you trust your plot protection or have a death wish.
Any reason that you say that?
Because of the power inflation that would be given to Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight builds:
-Ftr1/Sorc6/EK (down 2 BAB, 2 Caster Level) instead of Ftr2/Sorc6/EK (-3 BAB, -3 CL) or Ftr1/Sorc8/EK (-4 BAB, -2 CL)
In Complete Warrior's Spellsword is in the picture:
-Ftr1/Sorc4/Spellsword1/EK (-1 BAB, -2 CL) instead of Ftr1/Sorc6/Spellsword1/EK (-3 BAB, -2 CL)
Plus, the Pathfinder PCs are being given enough power creep; giving arcanists 3/4 BAB would be a little much!
-Matt
Plus, the Pathfinder PCs are being given enough power creep; giving arcanists 3/4 BAB would be a little much!
Battle sorcerer, in exchange for the 3/4 BAB and d8 HD, also gets -1 spell known/level and -1 spells per day/level. That's a pretty big drawback that you're failing to factor into your calculations. An eldritch knight who starts with regular sorcerer levels will, at higher levels, be more powerful than one who starts with battle sorcerer levels, not less so.
DennisDaOgre,
When I was pointing out the damage problem, what I was trying to say is that becuase of the low BAB, and other connected problems, the melee sorcerer isn't going to hit and there by do no damage. The problem I saw was the low hit potential, I just worded it wrong.
If the sorcerer is going to be an arcane meleeist for some bloodlines I don't think we should be looking to PrCs to 'fix' the fact that over all sorcerer's stink at melee. The fix should be in the class itself, after all why would you take sorcerer to level 20, if you can have a 'fixed' sorcerer?
DennisDaOgre,
When I was pointing out the damage problem, what I was trying to say is that becuase of the low BAB, and other connected problems, the melee sorcerer isn't going to hit and there by do no damage. The problem I saw was the low hit potential, I just worded it wrong.If the sorcerer is going to be an arcane meleeist for some bloodlines I don't think we should be looking to PrCs to 'fix' the fact that over all sorcerer's stink at melee. The fix should be in the class itself, after all why would you take sorcerer to level 20, if you can have a 'fixed' sorcerer?
I think most are not including the draw back into it on purpose given the relative power bump that has come with the Pathfinder rule set.
Any reason that you say that?Because of the power inflation that would be given to Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight builds:
-Ftr1/Sorc6/EK (down 2 BAB, 2 Caster Level) instead of Ftr2/Sorc6/EK (-3 BAB, -3 CL) or Ftr1/Sorc8/EK (-4 BAB, -2 CL)
Compare:
Wizard-Ftr1/Wiz5/EK2 BAB = +5 CL 6
Sorcerer (1/2 progression)
Ftr1/Sor6/EK1 BAB = +5 CL 6
Sorcerer (3/4 progression)
Ftr1/Sor6/EK1 BAB = +6 CL 6
So the difference isn't that big. In particular when you consider that the sorcerer is always 1/2 spell level behind the comparable wizard EK... 1/2 spell level versus +1 BAB? A fair trade IMO, in particular since EK Sorcerers don't get their bloodline bonus spell known.
I believe with a judicious choice of feats--which should not include too many metamagic feats but should include Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (claw) or Weapon Focus (ray) and other combat minded feats--you can have a fair melee warrior and more importantly a nasty caster long before Epic levels.
Have you looked at the higher levels of the class? My concern is not that the sorcerer isn't a powerful melee character at high levels, my concern is that he is nearly useless. The sorcerer's BAB scales way too slowly and his buffing spells can't keep up. From what I've seen his usefulness in melee peters out around 6-8th level even with feats. After that point the CR appropriate ACs scale up too quickly for the sorcerer to even hit on a regular basis.
I think most are not including the draw back into it on purpose given the relative power bump that has come with the Pathfinder rule set.
I just want to make it clear that my biggest concern is that the option is a dead end. Powercreep in the game is a big concern of mine and I'm not just advocating powering stuff up all over the place.
The battle sorcerer option takes spells known and spells per day away in exchange for the BAB bump... I would be just fine with that option. I would also be fine with the removal of the claw/ melee based sorcerer choices entirely (though they are cool). What I don't feel is cool is having a class option in the game that is a fun/ viable option up to a certain level then tapers off into worthlessness in spite of the player investing character resources into the option.
If you want to play a Battle Sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana, have fun and enjoy. Just don't make any Sorcerer Bloodlines into Battle Sorcerer Bloodlines please.
If the battle sorcerer as written is on a par with the "standard" 3.5e sorcerer (and it is; I've played them both in "gish" builds), then a battle sorcerer + one of the existing bloodlines should be on a par with a Pathfinder sorcerer.
|
If you want to play a Battle Sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana, have fun and enjoy. Just don't make any Sorcerer Bloodlines into Battle Sorcerer Bloodlines please.If the battle sorcerer as written is on a par with the "standard" 3.5e sorcerer (and it is; I've played them both in "gish" builds), then a battle sorcerer + one of the existing bloodlines should be on a par with a Pathfinder sorcerer.
I've always found the Battle Sorcerer adequate as well. I don't see a combination of the variant with a bloodline to be all too devastating. However, I would probably be willing to trade the bloodline powers for an extra spell known per spell level, but that's just nutty "DM says you can swap stuff" me.
Besides, the loss of only ten spells known (not affecting spells per day) does not offset a higher HD (which Pathfinder already bumps), a higher BAB, or the ability to cast spells in light armor with no chance of spell failure. One of these things--maybe--but not all three. Personally, I would prefer to not have an over-powered gish as part of the base classes in the final version of Pathfinder.
Nor am I interested in that, thus this thread is me expressing my concern over it being a dead end, not me suggesting we add uber whatever to the class.
Jason suggested one of the roles he saw the bloodline sorcerers filling is as a melee specialist. If they are to be a melee anything they need to be able to actually perform in melee, otherwise the class would be better served by simply removing the melee features and replacing them with something more relevant.
I've always found the Battle Sorcerer adequate as well.
I'd be very cool with a variant sorcerer giving 3/4 BAB, definitely. Just not the standard sorcerer getting 3/4 BAB with no drawbacks.
The other "battle" sorcerer I liked was the Complete Mage Stalwart Sorcerer, which reduced spells known in exchange for extra hit points (+2/sorc level would be a bit much for Pathfinder's sorcerer, that's like a d10 HD!), Martial Weapon Proficiency in a weapon, and Weapon Focus in that weapon.
-Matt
I've always found the Battle Sorcerer adequate as well.I'd be very cool with a variant sorcerer giving 3/4 BAB, definitely. Just not the standard sorcerer getting 3/4 BAB with no drawbacks.
To be honest... a sidebar or a first level option for battle sorcerer would be fine. More experienced players would probably catch on and make a plan but occasionally newer players wander into the game.
The sorcerer needs to focus on one thing, and all of his bloodlines need to support that one thing. You can't just say that the focus of the sorcerer class is bloodlines, any one of which may have any focus. That would be like saying the focus of the fighter class is all feats instead of just combat feats.
I'm not sure I agree entirely. The problem is that currently he focuses on a lot of different things and isn't particularly good at any of them. I definitely agree that sorcerer lacks focus though which is part of your point. He's got way too many abilities that are like nipples on a bull. Max is worried that the sorcerer is going to be super warrior but right now the sorcerer can't even hit the enemy in melee 80% of the time. Arcane Bloodline is like the wizards weaker brother... All the powers take away from the focus of the class rather than add to it.
It seems to me the real path for a draconic bloodline is to go Dragon Discpile... and that doesn't sit well with me.