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There seem to be a lot in the pipe for rogueish PrCs or rogue dips...
ex. Shadowdancer would be great for a fighter... except that a defensive fighter is going to take combat expertise... throw in the dodge, mobility and combat reflexes and you have just about taken away all options for a succesful fighter transition to shadowdancer.
What shadowdancer really lacks is a way to increase your dodge bonus as you level... this would help offset what you lose by not going straight fighter and your armor bonuses (which are great btw!)
As a fighter going shadowdancer you have very stringent reqs to get in, you lose all your fighter abilities for AC and offense (and have very little left feat wise if any to increase that)... you drop a chart on bab progression and you have a lower HD.
I think removing mobility from the pre-req and increasing the dodge bonus by +1 at levels 1/4/7/10 (total dodge bonus =5) that this prestige would be a good option for dex fighters w/o overpowering it for rogues who go this route (who will be spending all their feats on improving BS)
Avoidance does not turn you into a tank. You need to be able to attract attention of your opponents - if you cannot achieve this, you become a piece of furniture (the part of scenery to be ignored).
You need also staying power, i.e. you need to be able to soak damage like a sponge you're supposed to be, and it's not just hitpoints, but other defense types, too.
Regards,
Ruemere
I think he's talking about Avoidance as in "avoiding attacks through Dodge". Basically, making staying power out of high AC.
Not avoiding combat entirely. Note that he says "remove" the mobility feat and increase the dodge bonuses.
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sick to death of niche talk, the concept of tank, healer,dd and controller are made up categories that help with simplistic gamestyle. with the hp bump for about everyone EXCEPT the fighter classes, they can all take their portion of the "soak" role. a fighter does not NEED to alway charge in first, and protect the weaker members because the weaker members can buff themselves to be better than the fighter. is a 1d10 and a 1d8 really that friggin different?
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Well what about an actual taunt skill using intimidate?
Something like an additional use of Taunt or Bluff as a free or swift action... you make an opposed Check vs their Sense Motive... and if successful they must focus all their attacks/defenses on you their next turn.
As far as offense... I think having a very high amount of avoidance (charisma bonus to dodge, additional bonus to AC) you just need to bump up their inherent attack abilities slightly... like maybe a feat that allows a free attack of opportunity (treat the monster as flat-footed) against any monster you succesfully Taunt/intimidate
With the above two examples... you don't really increase the power directly of the class...but you give him new tools in which to do his job... make him more survivable as well as dealing a bit more damage (go go combat reflexes if he can taunt a few creatures at a higher DC)
All of that w/o huge changes to the class
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Something like an additional use of Taunt or Bluff as a free or swift action... you make an opposed Check vs their Sense Motive... and if successful they must focus all their attacks/defenses on you their next turn.
Sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander. This sounds like a really fun player option until the first time the DM uses his Fighter to strip away your tactical options, forcing your character into a decision he'd never consciously make. All the while the NPC Fighter's allies are killing your party's Wizard on the back row. And there's nothing your character can do about it.
-Skeld
As a combat feat, the Dodge feat needs to scale with BAB anyway, not with Acrobatics. I propose +1 to AC, +1 per 4 points of BAB. That way, fighters "cap out" at +6 (at 20th level), clerics and rogues at +4 (at 16th), and wizards at +3 (at 16th). Otherwise, it's a nice bump at 1st level but thereafter has really no effect at all -- by 16th it has become a wasted feat.
Then, as Ruemere pointed out earlier, we'd need a feat that lets characters effectively intercept enemies, so that the high-AC guys are no longer furniture.
These two changes would benefit all melee classes -- not just the shadowdancer.
Making someone focus all their actions on one purpose should either come through roleplaying or equivalence of use of Dominate Monster (spell level 9). Valid attempts at solving that problem are:
- blocking through interposing oneself (immediate action: move) between opponent and opponent's target
- punishing for not focusing on tank (i.e. bonus to actions against opponent ignoring tank)
- special abilities usable during AoOs (like Trip, Bull Rush, Intercept)
- parrying attacks intended for someone else
- providing concealment bonus for someone else
- providing defense bonus for someone else
- sharing damage (Shield Other, for example)
Yes! Taunt just seems way too goofy to me. Says the soul of the dead evil cleric to his patron demon god: "Yes! I knew perfectly well that the wizard was far more dangerous, but then their fighter stuck his tongue out at me -- how could I possibly ignore him?!"
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There seem to be a lot in the pipe for rogueish PrCs or rogue dips...
ex. Shadowdancer would be great for a fighter... except that a defensive fighter is going to take combat expertise... throw in the dodge, mobility and combat reflexes and you have just about taken away all options for a succesful fighter transition to shadowdancer.
What shadowdancer really lacks is a way to increase your dodge bonus as you level... this would help offset what you lose by not going straight fighter and your armor bonuses (which are great btw!)
As a fighter going shadowdancer you have very stringent reqs to get in, you lose all your fighter abilities for AC and offense (and have very little left feat wise if any to increase that)... you drop a chart on bab progression and you have a lower HD.
I think removing mobility from the pre-req and increasing the dodge bonus by +1 at levels 1/4/7/10 (total dodge bonus =5) that this prestige would be a good option for dex fighters w/o overpowering it for rogues who go this route (who will be spending all their feats on improving BS)
Go down the Duelist path like I did. Problems solved. High avoidance, especially hitting lvl 7 duelist, and you dish out some decent damage too. Undead might be a problem but there are items and clerics to handle that anyway.
If you haven't, check out the PRPG's updated Prestige Class list, it has the duelist in there in updated glory.
Valid attempts at solving that problem are:
- blocking through interposing oneself (immediate action: move) between opponent and opponent's target
- punishing for not focusing on tank (i.e. bonus to actions against opponent ignoring tank)
- special abilities usable during AoOs (like Trip, Bull Rush, Intercept)
- parrying attacks intended for someone else
- providing concealment bonus for someone else
- providing defense bonus for someone else
- sharing damage (Shield Other, for example)Regards,
Ruemere
Agreed. All good ideas for improving a 'defender' character's ability at defending in combat.
There's a feat in the Psionics SRD (it's not a psionic based feat), called Stand Still.
Basically, if someone provokes an AoO due to movement, you can forego normal damage to provoke a Reflex save or end all movement for the round.
The best part? The DC is damage based (10 + damage rolled), which can end up very high and competitive for the high levels.
Which is something non-casters tend to lack... high level competitiveness.