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<checks difference between D&D 3.5 (quoted above), and Beta rules>
That is indeed, an improvement, and one that was long overdue.
For those who are interested, the changes in Quicken can be seen by comparing PHB p88 & 98, and Beta p77.
I am suitably chastened, and everyone should ignore that part of my previous post. Serves me right for only looking at the classes, and assuming casting rules had stayed the same.
(But, given the rest of the post still stands, I'd still rather play a wizard).
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Okay, so now I've proved I'm a dumbass, and sorcerors can actually Quicken their spells, the question still remains;
Why do they pay the full-round action tax on most metamagic?
The backgrounds make constant reference to their magic being natural, innate, 'in the blood', yet this isn't reflected in the mechanics, which show them as rather poor casters. Staggered progression, few spells known, fewer bonus feats, gained later (of which, not all are magic-related), just doesn't scream 'magical heritage' to me.
Normally, when a creature has an innate power, they perform it more easily. See how spiders don't get caught in their own webs. See how creatures with a natural Swim speed can always take 10, and make Run actions.
I think lifting the tax on metamagic is long overdue. After all, they've only got a few spells, they should know them inside out, no?
Okay, so now I've proved I'm a dumbass, and sorcerors can actually Quicken their spells, the question still remains;
Why do they pay the full-round action tax on most metamagic?
Wizards would kill for the option to meta as a full round action on the fly. This is probably the biggest reason the Universalist is such a bargain.... As a wizard if I were given the choice between meta magic mastery and the bonus spells I would take the meta magic in a heartbeat. It also erases one of the few advantages the sorcerer had over the wizard. In general I think full round meta is fine... but it's pretty F*ed up that the wizard now trumps the sorcerer in this as well.
I agree that some people don't want the bookkeeping hassle of playing a wizard, and prefer to pick as they go from a shorter list, but that doesn't justify the sorceror being castrated by waiting an extra level to gain a new level of spells, or their slower casting time for Metamagic.
You're missing the point, or ignoring it. As usual :-) The role-playing reason to have a sorceror outweighs any crunch. Some characters don't fit having a spell-book, especially multi-classed ones.
That's not saying I don't think sorcerors need de-nerfing, but it does mean that players don't need to be dumb to want to play one. It's just that wanting to play one involves accepting your lesser power in relation to a wizard. So bugger off.
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Going through the class, point by point:
Hit Die: d6. A bit more survivability is always nice. But the Wizard and the Commoner got the same boost.
Skills: Ouch. That's a short list. Even with the bloodline bonus, that's a short list. OK, so some skills have been rolled together, and all skills cost the same, so your only missing out on the +3 trained bonus. But you're missing out quite often.
Skill Points/level: 2 + Int. Ouch. That's low, especially since, unlike the wizard, you are less likely to max your Int. I would have liked to see an increase in this area, to reflect the fact that, since magic comes naturally, all that time that would have been spent poring over dusty tomes could have been spent carousing in the city's seedy underbelly.
Weapon Proficiencies: All simple weapons. No change there, and it fits (see above, for the more free time/seedy underbelly argument).
Spells Known: Not affected by Cha. Hmm. A wizard gets an initial freebie based on his innate Int, though this effectively translates to an increase to starting gold of (Int bonus x 100)gp. Not sure if the sorceror should get lots of level 1 spells, but why not 1/spell level, up to innate Cha bonus? Would that break the game?
The ability to swap out spells is useful from a metagame perspective, in that they may not have scaled, may have a HD cap, may be covered by an item or better spell, etc. However, I would have expected the player to have taken that into account in his initial choices. It's a long time to be dragging around a lame-duck spell, considering that at 4th level, you are only just re-evaluating your cantrips.
It also calls into question the nature of these spells, if they can be swapped. Many players (at least in 3.5) picked these spells to reflect their bloodline, their focus, their theme, their core being. Obviously, we now have the new bloodline rules to help define the lineage of the character, but it could seem bizarre.
"I thought you could cast Burning Hands?"
"Yeah, I did, but I forgot."
It could also invalidate the very origin of a PC.
"I was driven from my village because of my strange necromantic powers...Hang on! I don't have any necromantic powers! Let's pack our cases, and get the first cart home! Bring out the fatted calf; I'm clean!".
Eschew Materials: Very nice, and fits the theme of 'natural caster'. Useful if you're stripped of your gear, possibly useful if you're grappled, though I don't know how many spells would have required materials that didn't also require somatic gestures, so you may still be up S@@~ Creek. Possibly worth someone making a list of the spells affected which sorcerors cast as verbal-only?
Should this feat require a caveat, that it only applies to the spells cast as a sorceror?
-------------end of class summary. Bloodlines examined later--------------
To this I would add Heighten Spell as a bonus feat, again, only applicable to spells cast as a sorceror. There will be times when you just need to cast a spell, and you've used all the slots of that level, or you just really want the extra level punch, for extra save DC, or to breach a Globe of Invulnerability, etc. If you use a higher-level slot than normal, you should get the benefit.
It seems to me that, with a smaller list of spells known, and no need for a tutor, a sorceror should be more familiar with each of his spells. As such, raising the effective spell level should come as easily as raising his voice.
Using the same justification, I would also push for removing the full-round casting time tax on metamagic spells. These spells are part of you, this should be second nature.
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So bugger off.
Now, now. Some people may not be aware that we know each other well, and like to spar with each other.
For people who have never met him, he is the current holder of the 'Erik Mona: Separated at Birth' title.
Remember last time we had our knuckles rapped for arguing in character as our PCs? Or when Tycho nearly re-opened the Baklunish-Suel War, with that transvestite from Sasserine?
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Wizards would kill for the option to meta as a full round action on the fly.
Isn't that covered by Scribe Scroll?
Make meta versions of everything you're likely to need, and you even cast them at standard speed.
Have a stash of all your boring utility spells, or spells that don't scale with level, then you can fill your head with all the "OMFG! get us outofherenowshitshitshit!" spells, like Silent Dimension Door, and suchlike.
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Edit: Was there a 'spells and magic' second edition wizard variant that was effectively a sorcerer, and if so how did that one work?
The spell points options included ones where wizards could cast spells other than the ones that they'd 'prepared' but at a higher spell point cost, IIRC. It was at least a nod in the direction of that sort of flexibility.
The Scarred Lands setting had an 'Arcane Trinity' feat that allowed a Wizard to prepare three different spells of a particular level in a pair of spell slots of that level, and then, during the day, cast any two of them. That was kind of a neat concept.
I've also seen one that allowed a Wizard to cast a few of the spells he has mastered via Spell Mastery spontaneously (spell levels per day equal to his Int modifier, IIRC).
I'm starting to wonder if a 2nd edition style staggered level progression for some character classes might be a solution, a la 2nd edition AD&D (and possibly before that- not too sure on this count though having only come to the game during 2nd Edition)?
Yeah, in 1st edition, the same number of XP could put your fighter at 15th level and your wizard at 10th or something -- XP total was a more or less realistic gauge of a character's power. In standardizing the xp tables in 3.0, but not re-scaling the fighter's abilties to match the wizard's, we're left with a situation in which class is a better indicator of viability than xp or level. Which is just absurd.
Now, now. Some people may not be aware that we know each other well, and like to spar with each other.
For people who have never met him, he is the current holder of the 'Erik Mona: Separated at Birth' title.
Remember last time we had our knuckles rapped for arguing in character as our PCs? Or when Tycho nearly re-opened the Baklunish-Suel War, with that transvestite from Sasserine?
Point taken. Sorry all. My language is due to me knowing just how... delightful a person Snorter is IRL. My comments about decent players having non-crunch reasons to play a sorceror stand.
So there.
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Yeah, in 1st edition, the same number of XP could put your fighter at 15th level and your wizard at 10th or something --
[flashback] Oh, that was glorious, especially if you could convince your DM that 20th level exp for the Bloodstone modules could be applied to a multiclassed or dual-classed character, because you could easily be an 18th level Wizard, 12th level Cleric *and* 8th level Fighter! [/flashback]
I'd like to see the staggering changed slightly:
level 1 - 1st level spells
level 3 - 2nd level spells
level 5 - 3rd level spells
level 8 - 4th level spellsAnd then continuing as normal.
The only two levels that I really think are hard on sorcerers are 4th (When they're still firing the same type of spells they did at level 1) and 5th, where as others have mentioned the sorc just can't keep up with the firepower of the rest of the party.
I totally agree with this. The power disparity between 1st level and 2nd level spells is pretty glaring and even worse going from 2nd to 3rd. If the sorcerer were at least allowed some dignity early on I think it would go a long way to appeasing everyone. As is, they are gimped to start. Not being gimped to start and having bloodlines to flesh them out would do the trick IMHO.
Wizards would kill for the option to meta as a full round action on the fly.Isn't that covered by Scribe Scroll?
Make meta versions of everything you're likely to need, and you even cast them at standard speed.
Have a stash of all your boring utility spells, or spells that don't scale with level, then you can fill your head with all the "OMFG! get us outofherenowshitshitshit!" spells, like Silent Dimension Door, and suchlike.
I suppose if your DM lets you keep all 20-30+ scrolls you have available as a swift action then yes... Generally retrieving a scroll is at least equivalent to drawing a weapon so is a move action... if it's in your pack it's a full round action. Much of that depends on the DM, a haversack of course gets you any item as a move action. Which gets you back to a full round action plus the cost of the scroll...
Regardless, scrolls don't give the flexibility to cast grease on the fly 3 times per day shaped or to use energy substitution to alter your scorching ray to just the right type of energy every time. Nor can you use quicken on scrolls.
On a tangent...
Sorcerers can also UMD very well now and use cleric/ druid/ bard wands to best price their magical gear. At first level an average sorcerer can have +10 UMD skill (Spell focus +3, CHA 16 +3, Class Skill Bonus +3, Rank +1) which means every wand in the game works 50% of the time... making the sorcerer more versatile out of combat than the wizard. Is Raise Dead, Freedom of Movement, or heal in the wizards scroll case? What happens when the cleric dies?
By 10th level the sorcerer can use nearly every scroll or wand in the game 90+% of the time which means they are now potentially more flexible in combat also.
So yes the sorcerer pays more for some scrolls... but he has twice the spell list to choose from when he chooses scrolls/ wands/ whatever.
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I totally agree with this. The power disparity between 1st level and 2nd level spells is pretty glaring and even worse going from 2nd to 3rd. If the sorcerer were at least allowed some dignity early on I think it would go a long way to appeasing everyone.
I think I see a way this could be improved, and fix another big problem.
Currently, the bloodlines grant a bonus spell, at levels 3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17/19, which is nice, but it's a spell level they already know.
What's more, the player might actually have wanted that spell as one of his known spells, the level before, especially since they are meant to fit the theme of the bloodline.
If, say, you have yearnings to play a necromantic sorceror with the Undead bloodline, you may want to take Chill Touch as one of your first choices, at level 1. Animate Dead? That's the cornerstone of Necromancy, the flagship spell. You want that as soon as you're able, at level 8. Same with the others. Finger of Death? Yes please! Energy Drain? Don't mind if I do! Same thing applies to all the other bloodlines; the bonus spells fit the theme, and therefore, are the very spells the player would want to learn first.
Yet if you do, you're penalised.
If you take these spells, the 'right' spells, the spells which are in character, you miss out on getting bonus spells. Because you already have them.
"No bonus spell for you! You were greedy! You took Animate Dead at 8th level! You didn't wait till 9th level to get your signature 4th level spell!"
So, you wait.
So, not only do you get all your spells a level late, but your signature spells, the flavourful spells, the spells which are in your blood, and fit the theme you wanted, get delayed even further.
You don't take Animate Dead at level 8, despite it being top of your want-list. You wait till level 9, to get it as a 'bonus'.
Meanwhile, the wizard (specialist or not) is laughing at you, since he's been casting it since level 7, raised an army and burnt your village to the ground.
And you realise your character concept doesn't work, that you're getting the spells you really wanted, two levels late, not just one.
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So, what to do?
1) Offer a multiple choice of bonus spells. A partial solution, but not if you wanted all of the choices as soon as possible.
2) Say, "if you already have this spell, pick another"... Not really any different to just giving a free choice in the first place. In which case, just increase the spells known on Table 4-13.
3) Offer a spell the character won't have yet. Radical solution here. Instead of offering a bonus spell of the level they can already cast, and forcing them to delay getting their iconic spells, offer a higher level spell, one level early. A taster of the spells to come, initially castable once per day.
Once they officially gain that spell level, at the next class level on, this bonus bloodline spell joins the single, new, free-choice spell as one of those the character can spontaneously cast.
Keep the list of bonus spells the same, but change the acquisition to levels 1/3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17, with the first on the list being freely castable, in addition to the 2 1st-level spells known (essentially, this was gained as a level 0 adolescent, and is now known by heart).
3) Offer a spell the character won't have yet. Radical solution here. Instead of offering a bonus spell of the level they can already cast, and forcing them to delay getting their iconic spells, offer a higher level spell, one level early. A taster of the spells to come, initially castable once per day.
Once they officially gain that spell level, at the next class level on, this bonus bloodline spell joins the single, new, free-choice spell as one of those the character can spontaneously cast.
Keep the list of bonus spells the same, but change the acquisition to levels 1/3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17, with the first on the list being freely castable, in addition to the 2 1st-level spells known (essentially, this was gained as a level 0 adolescent, and is now known by heart).
This is an awesome idea... I'm amazed it took so long for someone to figure it out!.
Obviously, I agree with the idea. Solves a lot of the Feat/ PrC/ whatever prerequisite problems as well.
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Bloodlines *are* a good idea. I still am wholly against the sorcerer's current casting progression. I don't think making it equal to every other caster would in any way imbalance the sorcerer, and in fact would make a lot of things for the DM and players a LOT easier to figure out. Some crafting was already mentioned, spells in general...
I don't see a reason not to do it. Please Jason, please reconsider? You'll make my kitten cry if you don't. :(
Bloodlines *are* a good idea. I still am wholly against the sorcerer's current casting progression.
Just curious -- have you ever seen the warmage or beguiler base classes (from Complete Arcane and PHB 2, respectively) used? If so, do you think that they should use the same casting progression as the wizard/cleric/druid?
Ya know I had completely forgot those two classes. Well there goes there "But the sorcerer is the only one argument"
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This is an awesome idea... I'm amazed it took so long for someone to figure it out!.
Well; there you go.
Obviously we are kindred spirits, joined at the soul.
LOL
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Bloodlines *are* a good idea. I still am wholly against the sorcerer's current casting progression.Just curious -- have you ever seen the warmage or beguiler base classes (from Complete Arcane and PHB 2, respectively) used? If so, do you think that they should use the same casting progression as the wizard/cleric/druid?
I have seen them before, and I have seen them used. Not often though, everyone I've played with is under the idea that sorcerers (and their counterparts) are useless in a standard party of 4, so I've rarely seen them. I do think they should use the same casting progression though. I think *all* full casters should go by the spell level squared minus two progression. It just makes things simpler and makes judging spells a lot easier.
Regardless of those classes, I still think the sorcerer needs to be bumped up to have casting fit with the others. With a playtest and Beta going on like this, I try to avoid comparing the classes within to other '3rd party' (as WotC is at this point) material for balance.
Ya know I had completely forgot those two classes. Well there goes there "But the sorcerer is the only one argument"
It is the only core class, and the only one that will carry officially over to Pathfinder. Also there is a significant difference in mechanics given the pool of spells they can pull from to cast spontaneously. Even that arguement isn't exactly blown out of the water, but there are many stronger ones anyway so it hardly matters.
3) Offer a spell the character won't have yet. Radical solution here. Instead of offering a bonus spell of the level they can already cast, and forcing them to delay getting their iconic spells, offer a higher level spell, one level early. A taster of the spells to come, initially castable once per day.
Once they officially gain that spell level, at the next class level on, this bonus bloodline spell joins the single, new, free-choice spell as one of those the character can spontaneously cast.
Keep the list of bonus spells the same, but change the acquisition to levels 1/3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17, with the first on the list being freely castable, in addition to the 2 1st-level spells known (essentially, this was gained as a level 0 adolescent, and is now known by heart).
While I still advocate simply normalizing the spellcasting progressions between classes you bring up a couple of interesting things here.
First of all I agree with you entirely about the levels at which bloodline spells are gained, I noted the same oddity the first time I looked at the bloodlines. If you want a spell that is already in your bloodline you're effectively penalized in when you can take it without hurting yourself.
Second a compromise is better than nothing, and I think there is merit in your idea. I do see an issue in that some spells offered by bloodline X are definately more useful than spells offered by bloodline Y, i.e. you're going to get a lot more milage out of Fly than you are Tongues.
I would also suggest that it could be implemented a bit more elegantly, by actually working it into spell progression.
Perhaps changed the spells per day and spells known tables to go something like this.
Spells per Day.
Level
1st: 3
2nd: 4
3rd: 5_1
4th: 6_3
5th: 6_4_1
6th: 6_5_3
7th: 6_6_4_1
8th: 6_6_5_3
et c.
Spells Known
Level
1st: 4_2
2nd: 5_2
3rd: 5_3_B
4th: 6_3_1+B
5th: 6_4_2+B_B
6th: 7_4_2+B_1+B
7th: 7_5_3+B_2+B_B
8th: 8_5_3+B_2+B_1+B
et c.
(B=Bloodline spell)
Hopefully my rudimentary tables make sense.
I would suggest having more than one optional bloodline spell to choose from at each level for variety and so that you don't get stuck with a not so useful choice just because you happened to like a specific bloodline (I'm looking at you again Tongues).
In typing this out it reminded me of something not only do 3rd and 5th level suck mightily, but 2nd gets you the amazing payoff of knowing 1 more 0th level spell. Is there any class with a lamer second level? (After a brief flip through I think the answer to that question is no.)
[edit: one additional suggestion. 1st level bloodline spell to be selected at 2nd level since that is basicaly a barren level for the class.]
It's a discrepancy between two supposedly equal classes. :shrugs:
Don't know if more bloodline powers are needed, but equality between them needs to be worked on a bit.
Eh that is one of the issues. I am not sure if they should be equality like that.
Ok here what I am getting at. The sorcerer needs to step up and be his own class. It's time for him to stop being the wizard clone.
One of the main reasons (in 3.5) that the sorcerer is a wizard clone is they have the same spell list, with a sprite's handful of exceptions (so that's a really small handful). Clerics & druids have (almost) identical spellcasting progression, but differ in special abilities & spell lists. I'm not saying that I think sorcerers should have a different spell list (because I don't); just wanted to state it outright for the discussion.
For me, bloodlines (& spontaneous casting) is enough of a difference. Bloodlines should accentuate the difference, but not take over the spot that spellcasting occupies.
I have seen alot of them played and never once has the staged casting been the issue.
Conversely, in my group, I can count the number of sorcerers played on one hand, with four fingers chopped off (& that was a sharn). Staggered casting & the small amount of spells known were the culprits.
3) Offer a spell the character won't have yet. Radical solution here. Instead of offering a bonus spell of the level they can already cast, and forcing them to delay getting their iconic spells, offer a higher level spell, one level early. A taster of the spells to come, initially castable once per day.
Once they officially gain that spell level, at the next class level on, this bonus bloodline spell joins the single, new, free-choice spell as one of those the character can spontaneously cast.
Keep the list of bonus spells the same, but change the acquisition to levels 1/3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17, with the first on the list being freely castable, in addition to the 2 1st-level spells known (essentially, this was gained as a level 0 adolescent, and is now known by heart).This is an awesome idea... I'm amazed it took so long for someone to figure it out!.
Obviously, I agree with the idea. Solves a lot of the Feat/ PrC/ whatever prerequisite problems as well.
That's actually kinda' what my group currently does (or would do, if someone played a full sorcerer): at every odd level, she would get one spell known & one spell slot for it (plus any bonus for high Charisma) of the next higher spell level. Limiting it to the bloodline spell (or choice of spells if bloodline bonus spells can be increased to two or even three per level) is an even better version.
As for beguilers, warmages, & I think dread necromancers(?), I'd revise them to be similar to the sorcerer: at each odd level, get a choice of one of the next higher level spells as known, & get one slot (plus any for high Cha) per day for it. When the even level comes around, full # of slots & spells known.
I would not change any of them. It again is an unneeded change. And now we have more then one class that has staged casting so that augment can die.
If staged is the issue well then no one would ever play the warmage, dread necromancer or the Beguiler, but they do.
So if folks like them and there played were as the staged casting is just unbearable for the sorc ,why do they play the other 3?
I'll tell ya why. Both of those class have class features.
Are they unbalanced , horribly weak,? No many preach of how good they are.
So the staged casting is not the issue. Lack of class features and class identity is the issue.
Bloodlines fix that.
Add favored soul and Shugenja to that list.
Thats 5 class other then the sorcerer with that progression.
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I would not change any of them. It again is an unneeded change. And now we have more then one class that has staged casting so that augment can die.
But none of those other classes are core.
If staged is the issue well then no one would ever play the warmage, dread necromancer or the Beguiler, but they do.
That's because they have VASTLY broader spell selection, and incredibly good special abilities. The bloodline abilities don't even compare to the abilities of the beguiler and warmage (can't say anything to the dread necromancer, as I've never allowed it in my campaigns).
All of the classes mentioned, except the Shugenja, are all built as more combat oriented classes.
They either get armor and weapon proficiencies, higher BAB, skill oriented bonuses, or other melee/physical combat specific bonuses.
The Shugenja is built exactly the same as the 3.5e Sorcerer, it suffers the same exact problems. It is exactly as lower powered compared to the rest of the classes as the Sorcerer was. If we were to pathfinderize the Shugenja, he'd need something along the lines of Bloodlines to get beefed up.
Not exactly a good example.
.
My point? I'd rather not see the Sorcerer become the weak melee, nerfed caster hybrid class.
And unfortunately it looks like that's what's going to happen. People calling for a Gish class. Claws.
What about those that want a full caster spontaneous caster? The one that was promised by 3.5e, and has a chance to be fixed and upgraded in PF?
That's because they have VASTLY broader spell selection, and incredibly good special abilities.
Warmage has a horrible spell list... It is extremely limited and one dimensional... To be
Beguiler is better, at least it is one dimensional in something interesting.
Why don't they make a warmage type class that has a decent spell list?
Because there isn't such a thing Dennis! ;D
Beyond that the limited spells really really really hurts the sorcerer beyond what being a spontaenous caster helps him.
As pointed out the wizard gets his scribe scroll for free, and that allows him to have almost anything (especially since he's not paying xp anymore for them) available when he wants it. If the DM doesn't let you have them normally available, grab quick draw and make a bandoleer!
Wizard: "Was that 5 magic missiles I cast from scrolls or 6? Well punk... you feeling lucky?" *Wizard then quicken casts a magic missile spell with metamagic mastery from memory*
The sorcerer can almost do the same thing... but not. First he isn't going to have every spell available to make his own scrolls with. Second he's going to have to buy the Scribe Scroll Feat which is truthfully near useless to him.
Eschew Materials would be a nicer bone if it actually did something. Let the sorcerer have it as a class feature that scales over levels so he can ignore more expensive spell components. That would be useful, as he could laugh as the wizard runs out of Diamond Dust for his Stoneskin spells while the sorcerer casts another one for free.
I know you're all talking about the limited spells of the sorcerer, but there is one one more thing we should keep in mind. There is another weakness to the sorcerer, that just might not be as apparent:
The wizard uses intelligence for skills. The sorcerer uses charisma.
And both get 2+Int modifier skill points. If you think about an imbalance of the sorcerer compared to the wizard and balancing each two against each other, not only the "staggered" casting should be considered, but also their abilities away from casting. And here the sorcerers lack.
If I were to propose some kind of balancing for sorcerers it would not as much be "unstaggering" the casting but rather up their skill points to 4+int and add some skills to their in-class-skills.
Because there isn't such a thing Dennis! ;D
Beyond that the limited spells really really really hurts the sorcerer beyond what being a spontaenous caster helps him...
and some other stuff...
Huh? What exactly are you replying to? My post about the Warmage?
You are retreading a post by snorter above which really covered a bunch of unrelated stuff that was off topic at the time. Is there some point you are trying to make?
If I were to propose some kind of balancing for sorcerers it would not as much be "unstaggering" the casting but rather up their skill points to 4+int and add some skills to their in-class-skills.
+1... I would love to see the sorcerer get 4 skills per level. Wizard is pretty well covered in skills. Considering sorcerer is pretty much maxed out with Spellcraft and UMD it would be nice to have a few ranks for the Bloodline skill and maybe diplomacy or... anything really.
If I were to propose some kind of balancing for sorcerers it would not as much be "unstaggering" the casting but rather up their skill points to 4+int and add some skills to their in-class-skills.+1... I would love to see the sorcerer get 4 skills per level. Wizard is pretty well covered in skills. Considering sorcerer is pretty much maxed out with Spellcraft and UMD it would be nice to have a few ranks for the Bloodline skill and maybe diplomacy or... anything really.
4 skills a level would be sweet.
That's because they have VASTLY broader spell selection, and incredibly good special abilities. The bloodline abilities don't even compare to the abilities of the beguiler and warmage (can't say anything to the dread necromancer, as I've never allowed it in my campaigns).
Ah, but the staged casting wasn't the issue. Besides many people want to keep using them and rearranging there spell progression is messy. The sorc needs a new direction and it has it. That direction just needs work.
If staged is the issue well then no one would ever play the warmage, dread necromancer or the Beguiler, but they do.That's because they have VASTLY broader spell selection, and incredibly good special abilities. The bloodline abilities don't even compare to the abilities of the beguiler and warmage (can't say anything to the dread necromancer, as I've never allowed it in my campaigns).
Right -- my preferred solution is to give the sorcerer some flashy special abilities too, rather than have no special abilities and improved spellcasting.
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I would suggest having more than one optional bloodline spell to choose from at each level for variety and so that you don't get stuck with a not so useful choice just because you happened to like a specific bloodline (I'm looking at you again Tongues).
I could agree with that, so that all sorcerors are not identical.
This reduces the enemy second-guessing them, and makes the class more interesting. It also reduces potentially redundant choices for multi-classed characters, who may have one choice on their other list.Just as long as it's a spell from the next level up.
Think of this as like a specialist wizard's obliatory school spell, or a cleric's domain choice. It should fit the theme of the bloodline, and be the first spell learned of that spell level, rather than one of the last.
I'm saying that on a sorcerer with his limited spells known has a larger problem then he is helped by being able to cast his 1 spell of level 'X' 3 to 4 times a day.
Lets compare a wizard and sorcerer at 6th level.
The sorcerer has:
6 - 1st level spells (5 different spells)
5 - 2nd level spells (3 different spells)
3 - 3rd level spells (1 spell)
The Wizard has:
3 - 1st level spells (up to 3 different ones)
3 - 2nd level spells (up to 3 different ones)
2 - 3rd level spells (up to 2 different ones)
Plus
3 - 1st level spells (1 spell)
1 - 2nd level spell (1 spell)
1 - 3rd level spell (1 spell)
So the wizard has just as many first level spells as the sorcerer, one less second level spell, and just as many 3rd level spells as the sorcerer. Of these he is only fixed on 1 first level spell cast 3 times, 1 second level spell, and 1 third level spell. The wizard can choose any spell he needs beyond those fixed spells. The sorcerer is basically a living wand for his 3rd level spell. The sorcerer does have more potential choices of spells for his first level spells at this point. On every level beside first level the wizard has more potential choices.
Now lets assume that both the Wizard and the Sorcerer maximized their casting Stat and have an item that provides a + 2 to that stat. Giving them both a Casting Stat 23 for their bonus spells.
This gives both of them 2 extra first level spells, 2 extra second level spells, and 1 third level spell.
For the sorcerer these are just extra castings...
For the wizard this is expanded potential. He can choose any spell he can cast, and choose which ones are the best for that day. He gains another 2 potential choices for first and second level, and 1 extra choice for 3rd level, giving him the lead in each level, and only 1 spell behind the sorcerer, a second level spell.
Other than that 1 second level spell the wizard can match the sorcerer spell slung for spell slung.
The wizard however can also use his versitility to create scrolls for other spells leaving him better prepared for the day. If the sorcerer chooses scribe scroll he is just giving himself more castings of the same spells, no extra potential.
That's the rub of the sorcerer. Everyone knows it of course, you go in eyes open, but I'm spelling it out here... cause I can.
At 3rd level the wizard has 3 first level spells 1 second, the sorcerer has 5 first level spells.
At 4th level the wizard has 5 first level spells 3 second, the sorcerer has 6 first level spells and 3 second
at 5th level the wizard has 5 first level spells 3 second 1 third, the sorcerer has 6 first level spells 4 second
The sorcerer only ever sits one spell per day before the wizard, and the wizard still can over come that with scrolls and a huge variety of different spells.
At 3rd level the wizard has 3 first level spells 1 second, the sorcerer has 5 first level spells.
At 4th level the wizard has 5 first level spells 3 second, the sorcerer has 6 first level spells and 3 second
at 5th level the wizard has 5 first level spells 3 second 1 third, the sorcerer has 6 first level spells 4 secondThe sorcerer only ever sits one spell per day before the wizard, and the wizard still can over come that with scrolls and a huge variety of different spells.
That's why I like the idea of giving Pathfinder sorcerers something like the feat "Versatile Spellcaster" (trade in 2 Nth level slots for a (N+1)th level slot). Then your 4th level sorcerer can have 7 2nd level spells and 0 first level spells if he wishes; that starts to look good compared to the 4th level wizard's 3 2nd level spells and 5 1st level spells.
The only problem with that Hograth is making sure people understand you can't trade in 0th level spells for 1st level spells, otherwise, well I'm sure you see....
The only problem with that Hograth is making sure people understand you can't trade in 0th level spells for 1st level spells, otherwise, well I'm sure you see....
Definitely. :-)
I'm saying that on a sorcerer with his limited spells known has a larger problem then he is helped by being able to cast his 1 spell of level 'X' 3 to 4 times a day.
Yes, I have never disputed this. Maybe next time you put my name on the top of a post and run off for a bit you should take a closer look at what I have actually said.
To reiterate my earlier point, I do not think that a comparison between the sorcerer and the wizard- when the latter is arguably the most overpowered, broken, class in the game- is a sound basis for a case that in some way, in terms of 'power' a sorcerer is hard done by.
Indeed. Here are some better questions to ask:
- Is the class appealing enough for people to want to take it? (Yes)
- Is the power level significantly below the average power level in the game? (No)
- Could the class use some improvements thematically? (Definitely Yes)
- Has the class been significantly improved in the beta? (Hell Yes)
Indeed. Here are some better questions to ask:
- Is the class appealing enough for people to want to take it? (Yes)
- Is the power level significantly below the average power level in the game? (No)
- Could the class use some improvements thematically? (Definitely Yes)
- Has the class been significantly improved in the beta? (Hell Yes)
All fine points thats why I think it needs more bloodline tie ins
I'm saying that on a sorcerer with his limited spells known has a larger problem then he is helped by being able to cast his 1 spell of level 'X' 3 to 4 times a day.Yes, I have never disputed this. Maybe next time you put my name on the top of a post and run off for a bit you should take a closer look at what I have actually said.
...
Your name wasn't at the top of that post...
and I stated I was just saying that to make clear what the problem areas of the sorcerer where... at the bottom of my post.
I'm not attacking or disputing you, I'm just fully stating what I see as the problem.