If the sorcerer is nearly-identical to the magic-user, then the sorcerer is nearly unchanged from its incarnation in AD&D 30+ years ago. And since it has thus been around in one version or another for 30+ years, it is no more of a newcomer than the wizard.
Epic, have you played AD&D?
The wizard IS the magic user from 30+ years ago. The only major change is the familiar and the specialization. Spellbooks, memorizing spells every morning... if you played one 30 years ago you can almost directly convert an AD&D magic user into a wizard and play it today with almost no changes.
It's a bit on the high side of the power curve but overall the wizard class works well in 3.5. The sorcerer was spawned from the wizard to be an alternate, and has never really worked and it's current incarnation (3.5) is considered weak. The fact that Wizard's released 3-4 alternate incarnations of the sorcerer (battle mage, beguiler, etc...) is a good indication that it is missing something.
So you are suggesting that Jason 'fix' a class that has been around for 30+ years and is largely considered not broken. I suggest that the newer version of the class which is largely considered broken be fixed... I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.
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If the sorcerer isn't nearly-identical to the magic-user, then it also isn't nearly identical to the wizard. And if it isn't identical to the wizard, then it already has its own niche and doesn't need a new one.
If the sorcerer is nearly-identical to the magic-user, then the sorcerer is nearly unchanged from its incarnation in AD&D 30+ years ago. And since it has thus been around in one version or another for 30+ years, it is no more of a newcomer than the wizard.
With all due respect, you are arguing semantics here and while you raise a fair point (I guess), it isn't the central point of the issue.
3.5 already has a prepare-ahead arcane caster. It already has a spontaneous arcane caster (two if you count the assassin - though it appears PFRPG assassins don't do this). The game simply doesn't need a another spontaneous arcane caster. And it is a lot like the Wizard, much more like the Wizard than a Ranger or Barbarian is similar to a fighter or a Druid is similar to a Cleric. The classes are virtually identical, and the only complaint many have is that they aren't exactly identical.
Something radical needs to be done with either the Wizard or the Sorcerer. Given that the Wizard has between 20 and 30 years on the Sorcerer and is tied into game fundamentals like Vancian magic, I vote the Wizard stays the same and the Sorcerer radically differentiates itself from the Wizard. I am even in favor of scrapping the class altogether and replacing it with the Warlock, or alternately, do what Jason seems to be doing, which is making the Sorcerer a configurable Warlock (via the bloodlines) with a sprinkling of arcane magic thrown in. I would like to see the bloodline abilities be powerful and diverse enough that one could create a Warlock with the available abilities or could do something equally intriguing with the class by choosing a different bloodline. Better still would be a reduction in spells per day, down to Bard levels, let's say, but spontaneously cast and drawn from a broader spell list than just the arcane. Perhaps the Sorcerer could use the Psion's approach of having bloodline-only spells and then a smattering of other spells that are more general in nature from which any Sorcerer could choose. The bloodline only spells can be cast at the same level as a wizard, so reaching third level would grant access to the 2nd level bloodline-only spell x time per day.
The greatest mistake the 3.0 designers made in this area was allowing players to think that the Sorcerer was a "master of the arcane" when that role was already completely filled by the Wizard; it is no wonder people are dissatisfied with the Sorcerer given this false impression. Moving the Sorcerer closer to the Wizard (regardless of the reason why) makes no more sense than to create a new class that is to be "the divine's representative in the mortal world" when that role is already covered and then some by the Cleric.
For the sake of backwards compatibility, there's only so much that can be done with the sorcerer.
For example, taking away his arcane magic, or even just weakening it more than a bit will make it a different class
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For the sake of backwards compatibility, there's only so much that can be done with the sorcerer.
For example, taking away his arcane magic, or even just weakening it more than a bit will make it a different class
Exactly, which is what it needs to be so it fills its own niche.Rather than being a Wizard knockoff, the Sorcerer needs to grow up and be it's own class. And by "be its own class" I don't mean become even more like the Wizard. I mean break new ground.
For backward compatibility, the wizard can be substituted in almost all cases, with a few extra scrolls thrown in if having a certain spell count is a requirement for a given scenario.
Exactly, which is what it needs to be so it fills its own niche.Rather than being a Wizard knockoff, the Sorcerer needs to grow up and be it's own class. And by "be its own class" I don't mean become even more like the Wizard. I mean break new ground.
Don't forget there are those of us who like the sorcerer pretty much the way he is. :-(
Spellbooks? Ugh.
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At the risk of being too nonspecific, why don't we take a page from the Expanded Psionics Handbook and bend the sorcerer more towards the Wilder, similar to the parallels drawn between the Psion and the Wizard? Give him an ability to "pump" his caster level, or maybe break some of those dice caps (14d6 fireballs? things of that nature?).
You could even tie this into the bloodlines by putting restrictions on what you could "pump" based on your bloodline, or simply allowing you to pump those more (ex 1: Fire elemental bloodline could only pump fire-based spells, demons only pump evil spells, etc. ex 2: Fire elemental bloodline could pump all spells by 2d6 but could pump his fire spells by 4d6). Just an idea, and not a particularly well thought out one at that, but perhaps it will put you guys on the right track.
--- Magis
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Hey can we bring this thread back to discussion of the actual topic: the staggered casting progression of the Sorcerer? While a lot of this is interesting conversation, it deserves it's own thread (and probably has one).
Jason gave two reasons why the Sorcerer can't be "unstaggered," and those reasons are:
1. Sorcerers get quite a few more spell slots than wizards, and the level lag is a balancing mechanic.
2. Sorcerer bloodlines grant quite a few more abilities than wizard arcane schools.
The end result here is that if we pulled the level lag, sorcerer would be a superior choice to wizard (as many consider it to be right now).
I think this thread should focus on addressing these two points, and not other stuff.
It seems to me that Jason's argument is:
1. Sorcerers get more spell slots than wizards at every level.
2. Sorcerer bloodlines grant more abilities than wizard arcane schools.
3. Therefore sorcerers require the level lag to maintain balance.
The arguments against the level lag include:
* The level lag over-corrects the imbalance of the Sorcerer's greater spell slots.
* The level lag introduces unnecessary complications regarding magical item creation, feat selection, and prestige class eligibility.
* The level lag causes players to perceive the Sorcerer as weak, inferior, and subpar compared to other primary casters.
Why don't we start from there?
The thing is, if Jason tacks on a lot more bloodline stuff, and makes bloodline powers the sorcerer's defining suite of abilities, then the lag might be needed at that point. Discussing the lag vis-a-vis 3.5 has a foregone conclusion: it's excessive to the point of being almost grotesque. For the Beta sorcerer, it might still be excessive. But for the Master of Bloodlines that Jason is hinting at... maybe not.
The arguments against the level lag include:
* The level lag over-corrects the imbalance of the Sorcerer's greater spell slots.
I think this is debatable... I'm not saying you are wrong just that it's really hard to quantify one way or the other.
* The level lag introduces unnecessary complications regarding magical item creation, feat selection, and prestige class eligibility.
I agree with you. In particular in particular I feel it makes the sorcerer a less viable option for classes like the Arcane Trickster and the Eldritch Knight which I feel should fit it rather well. I was planning on mentioning this when the discussion of PrCs came up.
* The level lag causes players to perceive the Sorcerer as weak, inferior, and subpar compared to other primary casters.
The popularity of the class in spite of this perception is impressive then. In particular since the Sorcerer sucked even more under 3.5. In general newer players in my group gravitate towards the sorcerer rather than the wizard and the bloodlines have only increased that draw. In my experience with newer players the sorcerer is not perceived as weak at all.
I've introduced 10 complete newbies to the game over the past year, 5 since the Paizo conversion. Two chose sorcerers and one specifically because the bloodline tie ins. This tells me newer players are less focused on the analytical aspects you seem concerned with and more concerned with flavor.
So my informal survey shows that the sorcerer is more popular and that popularity increased with the introduction of the bloodlines. I know that anecdotal but my personal experience suggest Jason is on the right track. I suggest let the more analytical people choose the wizard, the people more interested in flavor and whatever powers the bloodlines offer.
Ever since 3e originally came out I have been absolutely baffled by the one level in spell access of the sorcerer. My guess is someone somewhere thought this was some sort of balancing factor because spontaneous casting was going to be so powerful. And yet we see over and over again the sorcerer passed over in favor of the wizard because of the difference in power. When 3.5 came out I was stunned that they still refused to fix the poorly thought out design decision that led to the caster lag of the sorcerer. I was sincerely hoping Pathfinder would fix it.
Points I'd like to make.
1. It is common opinion that the wizard is simply better than the sorcerer, and many regard the sorcerer as the worst full spellcasting class of the 4. My conclusion, spontaneous casting has been overvalued, no bonus feats and casting lag, c'mon. The bloodlines are flavorful but I don't think they go very far in making a dent in the difference between the two arcane casters.
2. The logic of a one level lag has baffled me. If the sorcerer is balanced at odd levels, then it must be over powered at even levels. If the sorcerer is balanced at even levels, then surely it must be underpowered at odd levels.
3. There are huge gaps in power between spell levels, especially at lower levels. If you're using an adventure for say 3rd or 5th level characters the difference between a wizard and sorcerer at those levels is massive how can they both be balanced in the same situation. Either the sorcerer is fine for the challenge level and all the other primary spellcasters are overpowered, or all the other primary casters are balanced for the challenge level and sorcerers sadly lacking.
Please fix the sorcerer's spellcasting progression. I bet it still gets less play than the wizard.
I've introduced 10 complete newbies to the game over the past year, 5 since the Paizo conversion. Two chose sorcerers and one specifically because the bloodline tie ins. This tells me newer players are less focused on the analytical aspects you seem concerned with and more concerned with flavor.So my informal survey shows that the sorcerer is more popular and that popularity increased with the introduction of the bloodlines. I know that anecdotal but my personal experience suggest Jason is on the right track. I suggest let the more analytical people choose the wizard, the people more interested in flavor and whatever powers the bloodlines offer.
Flavor, ease of use or even popularity do not equal balance. A great thing about new players is thing like class balance don't enter into their heads they just go for what seems cool, however it makes them a poor example of how a class is just fine. No reason you can't have flavor and balance.
Flavor, ease of use or even popularity do not equal balance. A great thing about new players is thing like class balance don't enter into their heads they just go for what seems cool, however it makes them a poor example of how a class is just fine. No reason you can't have flavor and balance.
I agree. You are replying to a point I didn't make. I was replying to a specific point Gailbraithe's made about perceptions of the class.
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Hey can we bring this thread back to discussion of the actual topic: the staggered casting progression of the Sorcerer? While a lot of this is interesting conversation, it deserves it's own thread (and probably has one).
Jason gave two reasons why the Sorcerer can't be "unstaggered," and those reasons are:
1. Sorcerers get quite a few more spell slots than wizards, and the level lag is a balancing mechanic.
2. Sorcerer bloodlines grant quite a few more abilities than wizard arcane schools.
The end result here is that if we pulled the level lag, sorcerer would be a superior choice to wizard (as many consider it to be right now).
I think this thread should focus on addressing these two points, and not other stuff.
It seems to me that Jason's argument is:
1. Sorcerers get more spell slots than wizards at every level.
2. Sorcerer bloodlines grant more abilities than wizard arcane schools.
3. Therefore sorcerers require the level lag to maintain balance.The arguments against the level lag include:
* The level lag over-corrects the imbalance of the Sorcerer's greater spell slots.
* The level lag introduces unnecessary complications regarding magical item creation, feat selection, and prestige class eligibility.
* The level lag causes players to perceive the Sorcerer as weak, inferior, and subpar compared to other primary casters.Why don't we start from there?
Well to be fair to Jason, he mentioned in a couple of places above that (paraphrasing here, hence no quote):
1. The sorcerer needs to not be a "spontaneous wizard". The wizard role is filled and the sorcerer will not be moved to be more like the wizard.
2. The sorcerer's parity will be raised to that of the wizard by strengthening bloodlines and customizing spell lists that tie to the bloodline's flavor or by other means we can devise.
So what we should be focusing on is how to make the bloodlines stronger so the sorcerer gets the differentiation that is a design goal (there is another thread for that elsewhere) and other aspects of the sorcerer class that might be changed or expanded other than bloodlines to make the class competitive with the other classes.
Why don't we start from there?
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Here's a strange idea:
We could make Sorcerer spells SLAs with all the power that entails. Sure he doesn't have a broad selection, but it does address some of the metamagic concerns, and goes along with the flavor of a Sorcerer's innate/untrained abilities. If that is too powerful, we could allow the sorcerer to choose which spells should be SLAs and which would be more traditional using some ratio/balancing factor or we could tie the choice to the sorcerer's bloodline. Thoughts?
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Or you could just play it clever, and not cripple the sorcerer so that he can't compete with other full spellcasters at about half of the levels in the game, that is, whatever level a different full spellcaster would have access to a tier of spells substantially more powerful...
The sorcerer as designed in 3.5 is a travesty. It had no role that couldn't be filled by the wizard. While that might be said of a good many classes, it is triply true of the sorcerer. The sorcerer is just a crappy variant class and had no business seeing the light of day, especially not as a "core" class. But, alas, we are stuck with it's pathetic nature now. What is being proposed is to turn it into a full blown class, as different from the wizard as a bard is.
I can understand the confusion around the sorcerer; its original intent can only be guessed at. If one reads the flavor, the goal was to make a full spellcasting class. However, the implementation did not carry this out. And a good thing it didn't either, because then you would have a "wizard without a spellbook" and the differences between the classes would be so small as to not warrant the pages used to describe the sorcerer; they could have handled the entire class in the sidebar or in the DMG (or in a splat as they did with the Favored Soul); no two core classes would have been nearly as similar as the sorcerer and wizard had they done this. So the designers moved the sorcerer between the bard and the wizard spellcasting wise and then inexplicably failed to give the sorcerer any skills, abilities or flavor to differentiate it from the wizard. It became a "bard without ability".
Proponents of the "make the sorcerer a full spellcaster" believe the class description's flavor text and want the spell tables "fixed". Those that dissent want the special abilities the original sorcerer should have had all along but was not given and the spell tables left relatively unchanged. By doing the latter, the sorcerer becomes a core class in its own right and the position of "master of the arcane" remains with the wizard, where it has rightfully rested for 30 years.
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Okay, I am personally of the opinion that "game balance" is a ridiculous joke that Pathfinder gamers shouldn't worry about overmuch. You can never have real balance in a game where system mastery makes such an incredible difference in character power. I know that's not a popular opinion, and I generally avoid discussions about balance, but there it is.
I don't think that getting rid of the lag will create meaningful balance issues. I do think it will streamline the use of item creation feats, arcane feats and prestige classes.
I myself am playing a sorcerer in a Pathfinder playtest campaign, and the class as it stands now has a very different feel than wizard, more like a mutant (from the X-Men) than a scholar. By selecting spells thematically, I've created a Celestial sorcerer that is a better Favored Soul than the Favored Soul (I'd like access to real healing spells though). This is kind of how I've always wanted the class to be: a highly themed arcane caster, whose spells would seem more like powers that derive from an innate blood connection to a mystical source.
Individual spell lists for each bloodline, limiting access to a few known spells from a limited list of possible known spells, would be a far more elegant solution to the perceived need for balance and differentiation than the ungraceful and heavy handed lag with its host of unintended consequences.
That may, of course, be too space prohibitive to consider. A simpler but more controversial solution would be to allow sorcerers access to all spells, regardless of class list or divine/arcane (always gaining access at the highest spell level of all possible options), with all spell choices requiring DM approval, and DMs expected to screen for theme.
Okay, I am personally of the opinion that "game balance" is a ridiculous joke that Pathfinder gamers shouldn't worry about overmuch. You can never have real balance in a game where system mastery makes such an incredible difference in character power. I know that's not a popular opinion, and I generally avoid discussions about balance, but there it is.
QFT - I hate seeing people talk about how much better a class or complex combination of PrCs is because some bit of obscure knowledge. To be honest I think after a certain point it degrades from play. There is little in the game that can compete with a well designed Wizard or Druid but for the average player things are much more in sync.
Personally, I would be happy either way the sorcerer goes, either more towards casting or more bloodline themed. I do enjoy the bloodline powers and flavor it gives the class quite a bit though.
Maybe someone good in design could create new sorcerer's tables without staggered casting in PDF and share it with all of us so we can try our own playtesting. After that, we can have a better case to present to Jason?!
Druid has the same casting progression as a Cleric and with additional abilities is different. I do not see why the same cannot be done with the Sorcerer-Wizard.
The sorcerer as designed in 3.5 is a travesty. It had no role that couldn't be filled by the wizard. While that might be said of a good many classes, it is triply true of the sorcerer. The sorcerer is just a crappy variant class and had no business seeing the light of day, especially not as a "core" class. But, alas, we are stuck with it's pathetic nature now. What is being proposed is to turn it into a full blown class, as different from the wizard as a bard is.
I can understand the confusion around the sorcerer; its original intent can only be guessed at. If one reads the flavor, the goal was to make a full spellcasting class. However, the implementation did not carry this out. And a good thing it didn't either, because then you would have a "wizard without a spellbook" and the differences between the classes would be so small as to not warrant the pages used to describe the sorcerer; they could have handled the entire class in the sidebar or in the DMG (or in a splat as they did with the Favored Soul); no two core classes would have been nearly as similar as the sorcerer and wizard had they done this. So the designers moved the sorcerer between the bard and the wizard spellcasting wise and then inexplicably failed to give the sorcerer any skills, abilities or flavor to differentiate it from the wizard. It became a "bard without ability".
Proponents of the "make the sorcerer a full spellcaster" believe the class description's flavor text and want the spell tables "fixed". Those that dissent want the special abilities the original sorcerer should have had all along but was not given and the spell tables left relatively unchanged. By doing the latter, the sorcerer becomes a core class in its own right...
Problem is, that class will suck, and will remain a trap choice, if the current bloodlines, some of which grant utter crap, such as melee enhancements (adding insult to injury, a wizard still can easily outmelee a sorcerer from such bloodline, if he puts his mind to it, thanks to making polymorph line nearly unusable for sorcerers), and other grant minor bonuses and abilities, that simply duplicate what the wizards already has or pale before the might of spells, is any indication.
Considering, how much more awesome the wizard became in beta, unstaggering the spellcasting is absolutely necessary to make the sorcerer somewhat viable. Bloodlines as they stand now only make the sorcerer more of a newbie trap, offering shiny, but, ultimately, weak abilities, which are mostly incoherent with its main source of power (spellcasting). That's while wizards get yet another way to make their metamagic free...
1. Sorcerers get quite a few more spell slots than wizards, and the level lag is a balancing mechanic.
Hm... I'd like to see how those actually hold up to scrutiny:
Let's compare total spells/day for levels 1,5,10,15,20, not counting bonus spells for being smart or pretty:
Level 1
Sorcerer: 3 1st-level spells
Wizard: 1 1st-level spell
Level 5
Sorcerer: 6 1st, 4 2nd. Total slots: 10. Total levels (i.e. spell slot x spell level): 14
Wizard: 3+2 1st, 2+1 2nd, 1 3rd. Total slots: 9. Total levels: 14
Level 10
Sorcerer: 6, 6, 6, 5, 3. Total slots 26. Total levels: 71.
Wizard: 4+5,4+1,3+1,3,2+1. Total slots 24. Total levels: 58.
Level 15
Sorcerer: 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 4. Total slots: 40. Total levels: 154.
Wizard: 4+7, 4+1, 4+1, 4, 4+1, 3+1, 2+1, 1. Total slots: 38. Total levels: 130.
Level 20
Sorcerer: 6 in each. Total slots: 54. Total levels: 270
Wizard: 4 in each, plus 10 1st, and 1 of each except 1st and 4th. Total slots: 57. Total levels: 230.
The difference in slots is not that pronounced. It gets more obvious if you include spell levels.
If you'll includ bonus spells from high ability scores (I'm too lazy for that right now), the numbers look better for the wizard: At odd levels, he'll often, (actually, almost all the time), have one more spell of the highest level - At 5th, for example, he'll have 2 3rd-level spells, while the sorcerer has none.
For me, the real "staggering factor" of the Sorcerer is not the casting spell progression, but rather the number of spells known.
At 20th level, a Sorcerer knows 43 spells (including the 9 spells from Bloodlines - previously, they were only 34 spells) and 9 cantrips.
At 20th level, a Wizard that had 15 Intelligence at 1st level (5 spells known at 1st) and that HAD NEVER found, bought, or researched other spells, knows 43 spells and all cantrips. Obviously, we have to add to this number all the spells that he added to his spellbook during his career.
This is the real staggering factor of the Sorcerer.
If the Bloodlines would add some other spells known (for example, one additional fixed spell known of the previous level - so, at 3rd one extra 1st spell known , at 5th one extra 1st and 2nd spell known, at 5th one extra 2nd and 3rd spell known, and so on), this should fix the gap of spell knowledge.
Just a humble suggestion...
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So the executive decision here appears to be to make the Bloodline powers way, way cool, to try and counter the fact that the Sorcerers spell progression and spell selection sucks compared to a Wizard, Cleric or Druid.
I don't agree with that logic, since it would be more sensible, IMO, to fix the actual spell progression (and add the bonus feats from the Wizard, allowing Bloodline feats to be among them) and having the Sorcerer just be a 'Wizard by other means.' The benefit of having a few more castings per level of spells, and being able to cast those spells flexibly, IMO, is completely balanced out by the flexibility that a Wizard gains in having up to twenty or thirty 'Spells Known' *for each level of spells.*
Note that, much like the SRD Sorcerer, the Pathfinder Sorcerer does not get bonus spells for a high Charisma, meaning that the Wizard (and especially a Pathfinder Specialist Wizard) will quickly outstrip that small advantage in spells per day as well, leaving the Sorcerer with his flexible casting as his *only* advantage over the Wizard, and a tiny list of Spells Known (compared to the potentially infinite Wizard, Cleric and Druid numbers), reduced levels of spells (staggered acquisition, compared to every other full-caster class), a restriction on the use of metamagic *and* no bonus feats.
Bloodline powers don't *have* to fix this. It could be fixed without Bloodline powers, and Bloodline powers, much like Wizard Specialization powers (or, especially, Universalist Wizard powers), could be delicious gravy on a yummy steak. Instead, Bloodline powers are being touted as a masking spice for meat that has 'gone off.'
Note that, much like the SRD Sorcerer, the Pathfinder Sorcerer does not get bonus spells for a high Charisma, meaning that the Wizard (and especially a Pathfinder Specialist Wizard) will quickly outstrip that small advantage in spells per day as well, leaving the Sorcerer with his flexible casting as his *only* advantage over the Wizard, and a tiny list of Spells Known (compared to the potentially infinite Wizard, Cleric and Druid numbers), reduced levels of spells (staggered acquisition, compared to every other full-caster class), a restriction on the use of metamagic *and* no bonus feats.
...??? Uh? I don't get what you mean.
PFRPG, pag.42:
"Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table 4–12. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score."
Official SRD:
"Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score."
So, the Sorcerer DOES get additional bonus spells thanks to his Charisma...
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PFRPG, pag.42:
"Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table 4–12. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score."
I just looked it up before I posted that, and my copy had text saying that a high ability score did not affect number of spells available, that the table on table 4-13 (IIRC, I'm at work now and don't have the Beta here) was 'fixed.' Since your quoted text mentions table 4-12, perhaps I was reading a redundant statement about the Spells Known table (which I call redundant since no class has ever had Spells known modified by an attribute, that I know of, so it's kind of like a textual warning that your Strength modifier doesn't increase your number of starting Feats...).
I'll be delighted if I misread, but one or two more spells per level of spells (depending on level), or less, in the case of Wizards with specialist bonuses, don't make the class overpowered compared to the Wizard, and deserving of the multiple drawbacks they suffer (no bonus feats, staggered progression).
Official SRD:
"Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score."So, the Sorcerer DOES get additional bonus spells thanks to his Charisma...
As for the SRD, you are right, I just checked it myself and it looks like they've changed it back. (I got jumped all over to holy hell for saying on these boards that they *did* get bonus spells for Charisma a few months ago, and the SRD, at that time, clearly stated that they did not get bonus spells for a high Charisma score, as was rather strenuously pointed out to me. I was prepared to ignore it anyway, but it's good to know that it's no longer 'official.')
However the wizard is still going to come ahead on spells per day after level 1 all the way up to level 20, mostly becuase of his specialty bonus spells. Without those he is behind (48 to 54) counting just his 2nd level multiple castings per day bonus he adds ten to that to take the lead (58 to 54), and if you add in the rest of his bonus spells he gets 7 more bringing him up to (65 to 54). Now if the wizard is really smart and didn't just take a high stat for show, he'll grab the 1 level lower for an extra casting bonus available for his specialty castings adding on 7 more spells per day for a total of 72 versus a sorcerer's 54 per day.
Clerics do the same thing, only so much worse becuase they get a second domain, giving them 20 castings from second level spells.
Druids are the only class that actually gets less spells than a sorcerer and that's only if they take the AC instead of a domain. Otherwise they end up competing with the wizard.
Just saying...
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Problem is, that class will suck, and will remain a trap choice, if the current bloodlines, some of which grant utter crap, such as melee enhancements (adding insult to injury, a wizard still can easily outmelee a sorcerer from such bloodline, if he puts his mind to it, thanks to making polymorph line nearly unusable for sorcerers), and other grant minor bonuses and abilities, that simply duplicate what the wizards already has or pale before the might of spells, is any indication.
Considering, how much more awesome the wizard became in beta, unstaggering the spellcasting is absolutely necessary to make the sorcerer somewhat viable. Bloodlines as they stand now only make the sorcerer more of a newbie trap, offering shiny, but, ultimately, weak abilities, which are mostly incoherent with its main source of power (spellcasting). That's while wizards get yet another way to make their metamagic free...
I actually completely agree with you on this. I guess I want to see the bloodlines "done right" with powerful abilities (like Warlock style abilities - at least some of them *not the melee ones*, or at least not exclusively), "bloodline spells" that are thematically tied to bloodline without regard to which spell list they are on (Fey bloodline sees druid spells for example), with those bloodline spells being made available at the same pace a wizard gets its spell levels (so a 3rd level sorcerer would get a 2nd level bloodline spell to cast x times per day) and the like.
Okay, I am personally of the opinion that "game balance" is a ridiculous joke that Pathfinder gamers shouldn't worry about overmuch. You can never have real balance in a game where system mastery makes such an incredible difference in character power. I know that's not a popular opinion, and I generally avoid discussions about balance, but there it is.
I don't think that getting rid of the lag will create meaningful balance issues. I do think it will streamline the use of item creation feats, arcane feats and prestige classes.
I am with you on balance and agree that this change would make the sorcerer better, I guess we just have different goals. I guess I would hate to see a varient class become "core". The sorcerer really has so little going for it flavor and is so indistinguishable from a wizard that one cannot tell which you are dealing with until after the encounter is over and a spellbook search turns up nothing.
The following isn't directed at anyone in particular:
I wanted to point out that it comes across either directly or indirectly that one of the biggest motivators for making the sorcerer equivalent to the wizard is because of a dislike of the Vancian magic system; especially dislike of spellbooks as a management mechanic. Thus "sorcerers need spell equivalence" proponents want the sorcerer to "be a wizard" in almost all ways just to eliminate the Vancian and management mechanics, and are willing to accept a narrower spell list (oh they *and* they still want to keep the additional spells per day) as a balancing factor. I do not want the wizard to lose it's Vancian roots; I want the "master of the arcane" to be bent over his tomes, carefully considering his choices (and yes this means the player doing the same thing). Allowing a variant wizard that does not meet this flavor or require this minuscule investment is a step away from one of the core fundamentals of D&D.
Problem is, that class will suck, and will remain a trap choice, if the current bloodlines, some of which grant utter crap, such as melee enhancements (adding insult to injury, a wizard still can easily outmelee a sorcerer from such bloodline, if he puts his mind to it,...
The sorcerer doesn't suck; he's just weaker than a wizard.
I don't think that all classes need to be made as powerful as the most powerful class(es). Rather, the strongest classes like wizard and cleric should be taken down a peg (and some of that has been done through the nerfing of various spells) and the weakest classes like paladin and monk should be taken "up" a peg (not sure that much has been accomplished on that front, yet).
I think the sorcerer has alot of flavor... it's class mechanically potential that's lacking.
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My comments on the original post's subject:
I've never noticed the delayed spell level gain being a significant problem for sorcerers, at least power-wise. The biggest problem I've had with it is for qualifying for feats, prestige classes, etc., as somebody else mentioned, and for caster levels for magic items. I doubt it would have a significant impact on the sorcerer's power level to bring them in line with the wizard, and it would make a number of things simpler and easier to keep track of. (Which is one of the points of PRPG, isn't it?)
I have one other comment on Jason's posts about his design intentions: Please be careful not to fall into the trap that the D&D 4E designers did. They have all but (if not actually) admitted that their philosophy was "If you're not playing the game in this specific way, you're not having fun." (I'm not saying I think PRPG is actually falling into this trap or not, just giving warning.)
By significantly changing the sorcerer's niche, you're going to have a large impact on how people play the game. A lot of people like the fact that there are two options for the "primary arcane spellcaster" niche. Please be careful before changing one of those options too much.
However the wizard is still going to come ahead on spells per day after level 1 all the way up to level 20, mostly becuase of his specialty bonus spells. Without those he is behind (48 to 54) counting just his 2nd level multiple castings per day bonus he adds ten to that to take the lead (58 to 54), and if you add in the rest of his bonus spells he gets 7 more bringing him up to (65 to 54). Now if the wizard is really smart and didn't just take a high stat for show, he'll grab the 1 level lower for an extra casting bonus available for his specialty castings adding on 7 more spells per day for a total of 72 versus a sorcerer's 54 per day.
Your numbers are way off:
Wizards get 36 spells from their table: 9 levels, 4 spells per level. Add 10 1st-level spells and the 7 other spells, and you get , and you end up with 53 spells.
Sorcerers get 54 spells from their table: 9 levels, 6 spells per level.
So far, the sorcerer still leads.
Of course, you can trade in those 7 extra spells for 14 lower-level spells to get 60 spells. Go you, wizard! Of course, he's basically crippling himself by getting weaker spells. I'd rather get one scorching ray than two magic missiles, and one meteor shower than two rays of frost.
When comparing things like this, I like to compare total spell levels, rather than total spell slots:
Sorcerers get 270 spell levels from their list.
Wizards who take the spells that matter get 14 1st, 4 4th, and 5 of the other levels. That's 230 levels.
Wizards who choose weaker spells get 16 1s5, 4 3rd and 9th, and 6 of the other levels. That's 256 levels.
Those 10 extra 1st-level spells won't turn the 20th-level wizard into an unstoppable juggernaut of destruction, anyway.
Clerics do the same thing, only so much worse becuase they get a second domain, giving them 20 castings from second level spells.
So they get to cast 20 1st-level (it's 1st-level, not 2nd) spells. Wow! I'll gladly trade in those 10 charm persons and those 10 shields of faith for one mass heal at those levels.
At 20th level, a Sorcerer knows 43 spells (including the 9 spells from Bloodlines - previously, they were only 34 spells) and 9 cantrips.
At 20th level, a Wizard that had 15 Intelligence at 1st level (5 spells known at 1st) and that HAD NEVER found, bought, or researched other spells, knows 43 spells and all cantrips. Obviously, we have to add to this number all the spells that he added to his spellbook during his career.This is the real staggering factor of the Sorcerer.
And I think it needs to stay. The sorcerer has a limited amount of spells. They're already not so far behind a wizard that doesn't pay extra for more spells.
If the number of spells a sorcerer knows is enough so he can take everything he needs and then some, it's no downside any more.
I think we may be missing something about the real intent of the sorcerer and it's relation to the wizard. I don't think we're looking at competition for the master of all things arcane but more of a mechanical motivation.
Sorcerers are an answer to the Vancian magic system. There are many people that don't like it, and I think that's the reason we have the sorcerer to give those people a chance to play caster without having to deal with the rules baggage of the Vancian system. Rather than trying to change the sorcerer into something else, since backwards compatability seems to be one of the aims here, why not make it better at what it's supposed to be an alternative casting system.
The level lag needs to be done away with, and then any farther tweaking to power can handled by altering spells known, or with the addition of other class features as needed, once this most fundemental class flaw has been dealt with.
If you want to make it a little more unique, either allow them a chance to choose between arcane and divine spells, or even cherry pick from the various list, that would make them more unique. I've never quite understood why innate magic could only come from the arcane list. Spells known is the real balancer here anyway, no matter how many options you have to choose from you can only have a certain amount no matter what.
I find it interesting that in all these spell comparisons the specialist bonus spells are included in the math but the sorcerer bloodline powers are not. This ignores the continuous increase in class power the sorcerer gains as he levels up. This is the direction Jason is taking the class and this is what ultimately the difference between the 3.5 sorcerer and the Pathfinder one is. Such things as always on energy immunity, natural armor, breath weapons, or wings for the draconic line. At 10th level sorcerer has Energy Resist 10/ energy type, +2 natural armor, a breath weapon (DC 15 + CON).
Jason has fairly directly stated in this thread that he considers these powers the direction the sorcerer is heading in. Rather than dicker about whether the sorcerer is as powerful a straight caster as the wizard (he's not) how about we look at these abilities make the sorcerer into a viable class.
In my opinion, the *vastly* smaller spell-list of the Spontaneous caster is the *only* balancing mechanic needed against the Prepared caster who can have every single core spell, ever (FOR FREE!, in the case of a Cleric or Druid). Again, in my opinion, the Sorcerer could have the same level aquisition as a Cleric, Druid or Wizard, the same ability to use Metamagic Feats (which already are costing a feat, in addition to boosting the level of the spell-slot required) *and* the bonus Feats of a Wizard, and still be balanced against that Wizard, because the Sorcerer may be able to cast more spells per day, and may be able to choose flexibly from his dinky little list of Spells Known, but will never be able to say, 'Okay, let's rest here, I'll prepare a Dispel Magic and a Knock tomorrow so that we can see what's behind this magically-trapped door.'
I completely agree. Fewer spells known is a major limiting factor. The Wizard can be ready for any situation given a day or two. The sorceror cannot. Ever.
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Actually, since nowhere in the rules does it say that Wizard has to prepare his spells at a specific time, a wizard can run around with most of his spells unmemorized and a bag of holding of spellbooks, and given 15 minutes to an hour to study be prepared for almost any challenge.
When I've played wizards with 1 first level spell, I've never memorized spells in advance. Thus, I actually end up using spells like Animate Rope and Hold Portal, because when it only takes 15 minutes to memorize a spell, it makes far more sense to carry your spellbook with a dozen first level spells and memorize what you need on the spot.
That is a HUGE advantage over the sorcerer. And that ability, combined with the wizard's access to all Knowledge skills, goes a long ways towards differentiating the Wizard -- master of the arcane -- from the Sorcerer -- arcane mutant.
I can see a fairly major issue with allowing sorcerers to pick their spells from any of the spell lists.
The issue is monsters with sorcerer levels.
Can you see the consequences of a dragon having "heal" as one of their spells known?
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I can see a fairly major issue with allowing sorcerers to pick their spells from any of the spell lists.
The issue is monsters with sorcerer levels.
Can you see the consequences of a dragon having "heal" as one of their spells known?
The dragon will be slightly less wounded when it's chowing down on my corpse? I mean seriously, that same dragon could instead be casting Finger of Death or Limited Wish.
Heal seems pretty tame when that dragon can nail me with a -7 to my next save, and follow it with Finger of Death.
I think we may be missing something about the real intent of the sorcerer and it's relation to the wizard. I don't think we're looking at competition for the master of all things arcane but more of a mechanical motivation.
Sorcerers are an answer to the Vancian magic system. There are many people that don't like it, and I think that's the reason we have the sorcerer to give those people a chance to play caster without having to deal with the rules baggage of the Vancian system.
This is my real concern. You shouldn't have to play a class with mechanics you hate just to play the character you want to play.
I find it interesting that in all these spell comparisons the specialist bonus spells are included in the math but the sorcerer bloodline powers are not.
Well then we need to account for the wizard's school powers, and both of their cantrips per day, etc.
Truthfully I kind of agree with you, but the sorcerer bloodline powers just aren't that great. They are barely compariable to third level spells at best.
Well Jason was pretty clear on his design goal but still people here continue on.
I would support Jason's ideas if they turn out to be good (and current Bloodlines are not).
As I said before, Sorcerer can have normal casting progression and have a special ability like Druid has.
The way to limit this is to use the current mechanic of only a few known spells per level and change the Sorcerer known spell list from "He can choose whateven a Wizard can" to something unique (like the Bard's).
Let the list change depending on the bloodline chosen.
As for Bloodline powers, maybe follow the Druids way and give Sorcerer's shapeshifting powers connected with his Bloodline (like for celestial, give him ways to transform into more powerful Good Outsiders; for elemental into different elementals). Give the Sorcerer Medium BAB, d8 HP and a spell list with a lot less of offensive Arcane spells.
When I've played wizards with 1 first level spell, I've never memorized spells in advance. Thus, I actually end up using spells like Animate Rope and Hold Portal, because when it only takes 15 minutes to memorize a spell, it makes far more sense to carry your spellbook with a dozen first level spells and memorize what you need on the spot.That is a HUGE advantage over the sorcerer.
Of course. I do nothing else. Whenever we're ambushed, I call out "could you guys wait for a couple of minutes, I'm going to prepare my spells. Say, are you immune to fire? Really? I'll learn lightning bolt, then.
The hold portal one is the best idea yet!
"The monsters are coming, they're trying to get in here! We have to stop them now!"
"Just a little bit more!"
"Little bit? We're pushing against this door for half a minute now, and in 30 seconds, at most, they'll be all here and start pushing. We have no chance to hold them back then! Cast your spell!"
"Just another 14 minutes!"
"WHAT????"
I can see a fairly major issue with allowing sorcerers to pick their spells from any of the spell lists.
The issue is monsters with sorcerer levels.
Can you see the consequences of a dragon having "heal" as one of their spells known?
See? I've experienced it. There are creatures who are able to do this already. It's an exception specially for those critters, not a sorcerer rule, but it's there.
But I agree: Sorcerers should stick to their list.
I just looked it up before I posted that, and my copy had text saying that a high ability score did not affect number of spells available, that the table on table 4-13 (IIRC, I'm at work now and don't have the Beta here) was 'fixed.' Since your quoted text mentions table 4-12, perhaps I was reading a redundant statement about the Spells Known table (which I call redundant since no class has ever had Spells known modified by an attribute, that I know of, so it's kind of like a textual warning that your Strength modifier doesn't increase your number of starting Feats...).
Yes, I think that you read the text about table 4-13:
"At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table 4–13. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table 4–13 are fixed.)"Also, just to be totally sure, on page 7:
"Sorcerers and bards get bonus spells based on their Charisma scores. The minimum Charisma score needed to cast a sorcerer or bard spell is 10 + the spell’s level."
As a side note, I never thought that the Sorcerer was overpowered over the Wizard; I myself am a big Sorcerer fan, and I truly hope that with Pathfinder he finally can take the love he deserves. As I stated some posts above, however, I think that the true "staggering factor" of the Sorcerer is not the staggered spellcasting, but rather the staggered number of spells known.
Just my 2c.
Here's the problem I'm getting out of the discussion here. We basically have two sides arguing about the intended goal of this class. So we have:
1. The Sorcerer is meant to be a full casting alternative to a prepared caster. If someone wants to play a Spontaneous caster, they shouldn't be limited to just Bard.
2. The Sorcerer needs a niche that is more than just "wizard, but different", and bloodlines is the best way to do this. Give more bloodlines abilities.
What I propose is... why can't we have both? These aren't mutually exclusive ideas here.
So how about the following changes:
1. Make Sorcerer base casting exactly the same as all the other casters.
This means capping at 4 spell slots per level, with unstaggered casting.
This gives the class a common baseline in power, from which you can start piling on powers and bonuses to meet the power level of other classes.
Since number of spells and spell levels per day are exactly the same to start, the ONLY difference is the casting methods.
So let's compare:
Cast any spell known without preperation. Small fixed suite of spells known (minor ability to change a spell out upon leveling once in a while, to cut out those "no longer useful against anything I'm fighting spells" that have HD caps, etc).
VS
Cast spells through preperation. Number of spells knowable being unlimited, researchable, and changeable every day. Foreknowledge = having the perfect weapon/tool for the situation.
A smart wizard will try and have a number of general spells for the appropriate unknown, but an ambush or surprise/unknown event could leave him without his perfect tool.
To me, when taking the "power" difference out of the equation (number of casts per day), the benefits and drawbacks are a wash. Short, fixed spell list covers the bonus from having access to all of them.
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2. Use Bloodlines to fill in whatever power differences there are between the Sorcerer and Wizard from that point onward.
So the Wizard gets 5 bonus feats (4 chooseable), arcane bond/familiar, and Arcane School powers (1st, 8th and 20th) and bonus spells (+1 spell per level, plus extra 1st level spells).
Bloodlines can be set up to give at least that much power. I would suggest something like the following:
- At least 5 feats worth of power. Since the class has low HD, low BAB and low AC, these should be feats based on either Magical talent, NON-MELEE combat talent (Ranged, Imp Init, etc), or out-of-combat talent (skill focus, lightning reflexes, leadership, etc).
I'd go so far as to say that the first feat for ALL sorcerers should be fixed, like the Wizard's. So while the Wizard has Scribe Scroll and is assumed to be making scrolls, etc... the Sorcerer could have Eschew Materials, and be assumed to not need minor materials for his magic. - A series of abilities based on the Bloodlines. This doesn't have to be an ability at 1st, 8th and 20th level, specifically. However it should incorporate the power level of those 3 powers, and the Arcane Bond ability.
There should definitely be an ability at first level though, to distinguish the Sorcerer immediately from others.However, the suite of following abilities could be a progression, something based on possible transformation or growth (turning into a dragon, or growing more into a destiny-touched hero, etc).
Maybe make a smaller bonus over more levels. So a minor ability at 1st, along with an ability that grows with your level similar to Arcane Bond (some Bloodlines may actually give the Arcane Bond choice).
Then perhaps some additional abilities every 3rd or 4th level or so (ie. 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th). This would give incentive to stick with Sorcerer past 10th level.Much like the feats, nothing specific to MELEE combat should be applied here, unless the suite of abilities literally change the Sorcerer into something different (give between +5 and +10 attack bonus by 20th level, gives 1-2 extra hitpoints per level, and gives more Armor options, similar perhaps to the Monk's Wis to AC). I wouldn't be totally put off by this, his Attack Bonus would mean he'd hit, while still having less attacks per round. The hitpoints and AC would mean he's at least as capable of surviving melee as the Monk or Cleric. A "battle sorcerer" or "sword mage" might be viable Sorcerer build concept.
However, it shouldn't be the ONLY one, and ranged/magical focused alternatives should be the mainstream. Of course, there's always the Eldritch Knight and Dragon Disciple for those that truly want to go Melee Mage. - Give a bonus spell per day that is thematic to the Bloodline.
Since the Bloodline powers are a bit more plentiful, I'd ignore the added 1st level spells per day.
In the end, what happens is the Sorcerer can still be used as a "spontaneous caster" for those that wish to play a caster class that doesn't have to prepare. While the Bloodlines come into play more with distinguishing the abilities of the class.
So just like how a Druid and a Cleric both do divine casting, and share many of the same spells, the Druid gets a few neato abilities and gets less access to some of the core divine spells (delayed healing spells, less divine might stuff).
And what this gives us in return is to make the Sorcerer fit better with regards to spell level requirements of Feats, Prestige Classes and Magic Items.
Making the class easier to play is one of the goals of Pathfinder, and one that I feel is worth breaking a backward compatibility issue. Especially considering the change is quite simple (where you see Sorcerer spells per day, replace with Wizard slots).
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You can't make a class only about "Master of Bloodlines", because that's a name that doesn't mean anything. Bloodlines can be tweaked to do practically anything.
What role or niche is the bloodlines supposed to create? Hybrid physical/caster class? Skilled caster class? Are the abilities meant to be combat focused? Melee focused?
This is a problem that the Monk currently suffers. He has no niche really. Is he a full blown melee combat person? Or is he a hit-and-run combatant, surviving ranged combat? His Flurry and melee powers are in direct conflict with his low melee defense, high magic/ranged defense and high movement abilities.
And if you go down the route of Bloodlines can do ANYTHING, you get the same problem people have been seeing with the Cleric. The Cleric, in a single build, isn't an "overpowered" class.
The problem with the Cleric has always been that you can build a party of 4 Clerics, and they can interchange their spells and equipment enough to fulfill most of the roles a part will need. Melee combatant, Spell slinger, Healer, troubleshooter.
We don't want to make the Sorcerer good at too many different things, because it means he'll fall into the jack of all trades problem: can't be too powerful at any one thing because he can do so many different things. Or he becomes the "Ultimate Class", capable of being great at everything.
The Sorcerer should be really good at ONE thing, and his abilities should reflect that.
We have the Dragon Disciple and Eldritch Knight to fill in the Melee/Mage builds. Paladins, Rangers and Bards fulfill most hybrid class needs.
Regardless, the game needs at least two fulltime Arcane casters to give players options, and to KEEP the options players had from 3.5e. Changing the Sorcerer into anything but a full caster (even if it fills the niche of the hybrid melee/mage) is not worth the loss.
Make a new class for the Sword Mage. Leave the Sorcerer as a caster. We need our Witches, Voodooists, and Shaman properly represented.
KaeYoss, I just saw and read through your spell level thread, which was a good idea.
However on taking the 2 lower level spells over 1 higher level, I can name off several spells I use almost everyday while playing an arcane caster that would be nice not to memorise. I'll type in a list for a generalist, but I think we can agree from there that each school has something on each spell level that would be nice to cast each day:
2nd level bonus - shield
4th level bonus - 2/day mage armor
6th level bonus - 2/day resist energy (blur)
On the cleric, I meant from second class level, not second spell level, but I didn't make that clear, my bad.
I agree the sorcerer is going to have more high level slots, but many times a spell is only available at a certain spell level, or a lower level spell works just fine.
Beyond all that it's always going to be partly the player too, you have to know when and where and how to use those spells to be effective, instead of just going supernova.
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...some great ideas...
I really like this. I didn't think I would, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. I especially like that the similarities end at spell progression. Modeling it off the cleric/druid is a fine idea.
What I would like to see (and I think this is what is being suggested above) is:
* The sorcerer gets the "classic" spell progression of the wizard but casts spontaneously
* spells known are fewer, can come from other lists (based on bloodline)
* the sorcerer gains Eschew Materials at 1st (great idea)
* the sorcerer does not have the options of familiar/arcane bond
* the sorcerer does not get the bonus feats of the wizard
* the sorcerer is balanced by adding bloodline abilities that replace the wizards familiar/bond, bonus feats, and the like
* like a specialist wizard, the sorcerer gets a bonus spell per day of each level that is thematically tied to his bloodline
The idea is to end up with the same sort of differentiation that there is between a cleric and druid.
Is this about right for an overview (eg nothing set in stone)? If so, then I am really liking this concept. It seems a great compromise powerwise and sets out from the beginning to make the sorcerer different from the wizard.
As a further suggestion, I would like to see the sorcerer be unable to create items (except create potion). The sorcerer just doesn't have the discipline and training to imbue other items with magic; he gets his power by having a highly magical ancestor, not by rigorous study of how magic works. Potions are the exception because they are fairly weak compared to other items and it just seems to fit the flavor of the sorcerer that he could create these simple items. This would also further differentiate the sorcerer from the wizard, who will clearly remain "master of the arcane".
What do the rest of you think?
I posted this in another thread, but after reading this one, I have changed my mind. Perhaps it is not over powered and might be just the right tweak.
"I really like the idea of tinkering with sorcerer, but the trouble is balance. He cannot be better than the Wizard or why play one? For example I love the idea of a sorcerer getting a little armor, maybe go up a hit die, and getting a martial weapon, or even better the natural attacks that some get get now through claws and rays and such. I think this would make the sorcerer unique, it would fit his supposed origin, and would create that fighter/mage base class we all have been whining for. The problem is what does he give up for those add ons. I really like the new ability/bloodline trees, they add alot of RP to a new character and make for some really cool builds. I dont want to further remove any casting ability from them as they are already giving up alot of progression for the versatility. They dont have great saves or skill points so you cant trim them further. I am at a loss. I am thinking perhaps leave casting saves and skills as is, add rogue bab, and hp, allow casting in light armor and alter the abilities tied to bloodline so that all the ones that dont get a natural or ray attack get one martial weapon. I am just not sure this wont unballance the class, despite the fact it sounds like something I would love to play.
tweak."
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I am all for sorcerers having the same casting progression as a wizard, a cleric, or the druid. I do not think it would imbalance them in any way whatsoever, and would effect backwards compatibility much less compared to a lot of the other changes.
Seriously, the classes have all gotten a nice boost, what is the problem here? I was reading this thread last night, and I have to say, this is the first time I've really felt disappointed about the playtesting. When design comes in and basically just says 'no' to a LOT of people clamoring for a change, I have to wonder what the point of our feedback really is.
I don't think I've ever felt as sorry to be a part of this as I did when I first read this thread. I'll get over it, but I just can't understand the absolute stubbornness on this issue. It seems like something people have been wanting to change for years, and Pathfinder seems the best hope for it. I love this company and its products with all my heart (and money) and want nothing more than to see it be the best it can be.
Well Jason didn't say "NO" to fixing or improving the sorcerer, he said, "I don't think this is the way to do it." Quite different really, and truthfully on further thought I agree with him. Let's do something that makes comparing the sorcerer and the wizard a bit like comparing apples and oranges. If they are the same class we don't need both of them, Druids and Clerics both are valued classes and have similiar functions but are completely different on how they do that. I would like the same to be said for the sorcerer and wizard. I believe that's where Jason is going with this.
So lets not complain about not getting this, instead see what else you can get.