Welcome to the fifth stage of the playtest for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. We have now wrapped up the first four stages of the playtest, which took a look at the Ability Scores, Races, and most of the Classes (Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, and Rogue). We are now coming to the end of the classes playtest, finishing up with a look at sorcerers and wizards. Comments on the other classes, or other parts of the rules (such as spells), should wait until we reach their portion of the playtest. As a general note, if the rules would not be placed in this chapter, then it should probably wait (so discussing Sorcerer Bloodlines is perfectly relevant here, but particular wizard spells are not). When discussing the Classes, start your thread title out with the name of the class, followed by the issue you want to discuss. For example, if you wanted to talk about the Wizard's arcane bond ability, your thread subject might read: Wizard - Arcane Bond.
Note that discussion about Wizard Arcane Schools are permitted during this portion of the playtest.
To get things started here, we need to take a look at both of these classes. Here are some areas that need a good solid look at.
- Sorcerer: Does the powers granted by the bloodline, combined with the larger number of spells per day, make up for the slightly slower spell progression as compared to the wizard and his arcane schools? Are the bloodlines balanced against one another? Which ones are too good? Which ones are not good enough? Which powers need clarification, enhancement, or reduction?
- Wizard: Are the arcane schools balanced against one another? Which ones are too good? Which ones are not good enough? Which powers need clarification, enhancement, or reduction?
- Are there any other general abilities that these arcane spell casting classes should possess?
This is an area of the rules that can be quite contentious. To keep things clean, I would appreciate that you label your threads appropriately and keep things civil. Presenting entirely rebuilt classes is not very useful to us at this point, but presenting fixes to the rules we have is quite useful. Please keep that in mind, when you are posting. Finally, lets try not to stray all over the book in these discussions. It is really easy to start talking about feats and spells when we discuss classes and I would really like to stay on focus.
The first three class playtests were very productive and I am excited to see where this one leads us.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Would it be appropriate for us to discuss multiclassing of spellcasters (not just arcane ones)? Because there has been a long discussion about Pathfinder multiclassing on EN World, here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-rules-discussion/239938-proposed-f ix-spellcaster-multiclassing.html
Ok the wizard I will go though my thoughts.
1. Prohibited schools: They should be just that , You should not be able to cast from them period.
2.Universal School: They give nothing up so should lose the extra spells at 2,4,6,10,12,14,16,18 levels
* with that lose I see nothing wrong with keeping the 1,4,8,20 th powers as is
3.Abjuration: Seems fine to me
4.Conjuration: +2 AC is weak. I would bump this to +4 and +1 per 5 levels to a max of +8[ or have thought of +5 with a +1 per 4 levels [max +10]
5.Divination:I would also grant them a +2 to Initiative on top of not being surprised
6.Enchantment: The bluff ability I would go +3 with +1 per 4 levels [max of +8]
I would change daze touch as so
*Dazing glance (Su): You can cause a living creature to become dazed as a ranged touch attack. This ability has rang of 30 ' and has no effect on creatures of a higher level than you or with more HD. Once a creature has been affected by dazing Glance, it is immune to its effects for 1 day.
7 Evocation:The damage should be +1 per die of damage[or per 2 dice of damage]
8.Illusion: looks good to me
9.Necromancy: Oh boy ok. The control 8 HD is nice however he needs a means to gain control of it becomes a pointless power to have from day 1.
*Touch of the grave
Grave bolt (Su): As a standard action, you can make a ranged touch attack that deals 1d6 points of cold damage + 1 for every two caster levels you possess. Creatures damaged by this attack automatically fail all stabilization checks made within 1 minute of your touch
10.Transmutation: this seems fine to me
Will post later on blood line thoughts
Ok, first of all, I have to say that Sorcerer Bloodlines are simply a stroke of genius and a really fun way to reinvent the old 3.x Sorcerer.
Having said that, the old Sorcy needs just a bit of more love to become a perfect class to play.
1) The staggered casting: well, it would be awesome to make the spell progression of Sorcerer in par with that of the Wizard, but since Jason has already stated that this is not his intention, we have to find some other thing (and admittedly, I can easily live with the progression as is now)
2) The power creep of the Wizard: the fact that a Wizard now has (almost) the same number of spells per day of the Sorcerer (well, actually more) slightly bothers me. The fact that a 20th level Sorcerer has 6 - plus bonus - 1st level spells vs the 4 - plus bonus - 1st level spells AND 10 more 1st level spells (although they are all the same) of the Wizard... this is a thing I don't like. Especially from Generalist Wizards (from Specialists, I could still live with it). Please, Generalists already have potent supernatural abilities on their own; don't overshadow the Sorcerer with extra spells either !
3) Spells known. This is where Sorcerers really get hurt. The real problem with the class is that the number of spells known is REEEEALLY low (almost low as the Bard, but Bards have other class features, while Sorcerers NOW have the Bloodlines features - previously, not even them - and nothing else). A spell known progression increased by one or two spells per level, perhaps linked again to the Bloodlines - something like an extra 1st level known when they take the extra 2nd or 3rd level, scaled for the spell levels (and so, extra 1st at 3rd level, extra 1st and 2nd at 5th, extra 2nd and 3rd at 7th, and so on).
This is the most important issue of the Sorcerer; at 20th level, a Sorcerer with the current rules has (Cantrips excluded) a total of 34 spells known plus the 9 Bloodline spells. At the same level, a Wizard with an Intelligence of 15 at 1st level and who has NEVER bought, found or researched a spell (something almost unheard of) has the same number of spells known (Cantrips excluded). But a Wizard can easily transcribe any scroll he finds - especially lower level spells, who are easily found, has a low cost, and are easy to add to a spellbook.
Please Jason, you have already made an excellent work with the Sorcerer - please, just give him just a bit of more love !!!
(...and tone down the Generalist Wizard !!!)
...oh, and 4 skill points per level to the Sorcerer would not hurt at all !
Making a Cleric/Druid analogy: the Cleric gains 2 skill points per level; he spent almost all his time in youth praying and meditating in order to receive the illumination from his God/Order/whatever. Even when he became a full-fledged holy warrior-priest of his faith, his training cannot bring him strained from his narrow path of prayer and fulfilment of his vows (game rule: he cannot take more than 2 skill points per level because he has to fully focus on his spellcasting and martial abilities). The Druid instead has to live in full contact with the nature, and his spiritual training is strict and harsh, but more practical than that of the Cleric so (game-wise) he gains more skill points per level because he has more time to dedicate to this.
(Same goes for Fighters and Barbarians...)
In analogy, while the Wizard is obviously more skilled (= more Intelligence bonuses) than the Sorcerer, all his time is absorbed in the studies of Magic itself. Although he lives in secluded labs, filled with dusty libraries, he has not so much time left to study anything else which is not Magic itself - he can compensate thanks to his high Intellicenge, but that's all.
Now the Sorcerer - well, he is a scapegoat, a scoundrel, all this "magick-stuff" come easily to him. He is a self-learner - probably he never took a formal education, he was a tomboy with a knack for convincing others to leave him alone, lest who knows what could happen if he glared you with his "evil-eye"? He had a lot of time in order to learn to use simple weapons (the Wizard not...), and has some more "roguish" skills on his list - for all the aforementioned reasons. So why not giving him more skill points per level as well ?
Just my 2c.
The Wraith wrote: ...oh, and 4 skill points per level to the Sorcerer would not hurt at all ! I have never understood the "underpowered" nature of the sorcerer. Being able to cast on the fly more than makes up for the slower spell progression, and players in my games have always favored the sorcerer over the wizard.
That said, I agree whole-heartedly with The Wraith. The Sorcerer has never lived up to it's "outcast, self-taught" background to me. 4 Skill points a level and an expanded skill list (Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Survival?) would shore that up nicely.
Ryn, who likes his outcasts
The 20th level power of the Universalist wizard is far to good. It makes a Universalist better at charming monsters than a 20th level enchanter. It makes a Universalist better at banishing demons than a 20th level Abjurer. It makes a Universalist better at reading a subjects mind than a 20th level Diviner. Many signature spells of the Specialist schools (specifically Abjuration, Enchantment and Divination) have their power and effect based soley on the Saving throw. When a Universalist gets a +2 bonus to all DC this give him higher DCs than a specialist. Even if the Specialist takes spell focus and greater spell focus he is only matching the Universalists DC. If the Universalist also takes Spell Focus in the school he is BETTER than the specialists in that regard.
Take Dismissal or Banishment for example. Not only will the Universalist DC be 2 points higher than an Abjurer the Universalist gets a +4 bonus to overcome the spell resistance that most Outsiders have. This makes a Universalist far better at banishing demons and outsiders than an Abjurer? Doesnt this just seem a tad bit wrong?
Who's charm person should be harder to resist? Enchanter or Universalist?
Who's Dismissal should be more likely to banish a demon? Abjurer or Universalist?
Who's Illusion should be harder to detect? Illusionist or Universalist?
Who's Detect Thoughts Spell should have a greater chance of revealing the subjects desires? Diviner or Universalist?
But with the current 20th level power the Universalist wins every single time. The Specialist at most can break even by taking two feats and then only if the Universalist chooses not to take one of them.
Sorcerer: Bloodlines are really cool. I like the option of the arcane bloodline as it lets someone who doesn't really want to focus on a bloodline play a sorcerer. I have never though sorcerers needed something to make up for their slightly slower spell progression. The major reasons bloodlines are good are they give incentive to not simply take a prestige class (all sorcs should always prestige before) and they add flavor.
Bloodlines:
Aberrant: all the abilities past the starter make me twinge. I am not sure that they are broken, but they should be examined carefully.
Abyssal: This seems fine. It is obviously weaker than aberrant though.
Arcane: Very strong. On par with aberrant except offensive rather than defensive.
Celestial: This seems fine. It is on par with abyssal. Wings of heaven could be at will.
Destined: is really cool/strong. Better than celestial or abyssal but not as good as arcane or aberrant.
Draconic: Cool, slightly better than celestial?
Elemental: Good, on par with Draconic.
Fey: I dislike laughing touch even if it only works 1 round per creature per day. Fleeting glance needs to be clarified as to what kind of action it is. Fey magic is really strong and soul of the fey is stronger. This is on par with aberrant or arcane.
Infernal: mostly good, I don't like multiple effect things in general so the penalty on saves vs enchantment bothers me a little. I like the flavor behind it though. Same complain for hellfire but it seems fine ever all. Same level as draconic, maybe a little better.
Undead: is good. There needs to be clarification as to what kind of action a bunch of the effects are but it is otherwise fine. (One of us is an awesome name/ability)
Wizard: arcane schools
Abjuration: is really weak but cool
Conjuration: is really good. The 8th level power is a bit iffy but I think overall it is fine.
Divination: is amazing. Maybe too good.
Enchantment: mostly good. I dislike aura of despair having no save.
Evocation: Straight forward. Good if maybe a little weak. I would rather the 8th level power be something different. I have never found creating walls of energy very iconic for evokers.
Illusion: very good. Invisibility field might be too powerful.
Necromancy: seems fine but will probably never be played in a heroic game.
Transmutation: this seems good. I wouldn't call it weak or overpowered.
Universal: even without a power this is by far the best choice which I feel is a shame. Hand of the apprentice lets the wizard be insanely good at dealing damage at levels one and two. Meta-magic mastery is amazing and mastery of all schools is amazing.
As for other changes, I feel that when a character chooses to specialize they should not be able to stop for a day. Maybe they should only have one banned school but they should never be able to cast from their banned school.
Ray of enfeeblement is still too strong, even lasting only a round per level (especially at higher levels with empowered ray of enfeeblement). It needs a fort save for partial effect (-1 or -2 str on a successful save)
Also, while an arcane bonded item is cool, it seems to be better than a familiar to the point that there would never be a reason to take a familiar.
I have a player who wasn't too happy about his two 'best' choices for the kind of character he wanted to play ... he didn't see his character as a Sorcerer or a Bard ... but he felt it was kinda like a Variant Sorcerer with better fighting abilities, better HP and worse spell-casting to balance it out. There is a variant Core Sorcerer in the Unearthed Arcana that he thought was interesting, but to make it more 'Pathfinder' I spent a few hours rewriting it, borrowing heavily on the Bard and Sorcerer from the Pathfinder Beta.
I know the tables would turn to mush if posted here but I also don't want to violate Do not post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party. so can anyone explain or direct me to where I could find out about both of these ... questions?
Battle Sorcerer looks like it's OGL.
Me, personally, I would add in the bloodline powers of pathfinder (perhaps in the same proportion as the spell classing), adjust the skills, and make sure the hit points match the the Pathfinder norm.
What questions do you have?
PetRock wrote: Battle Sorcerer looks like it's OGL.
Me, personally, I would add in the bloodline powers of pathfinder (perhaps in the same proportion as the spell classing), adjust the skills, and make sure the hit points match the the Pathfinder norm.
What questions do you have?
Well, your suggestions are exactly what I had done ... if it's OGL ... then here it is.
Battle Sorcerer
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
The sorcerer’s class skills are Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcane) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks Per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the battle sorcerer.
Weapon and Armour Proficiency: A battle sorcerer is proficient with all simple weapons, plus a single one-handed or light martial weapon of the character’s choice. Battle sorcerers are also proficient with light armour and shields (except tower shields). A battle sorcerer can cast battle sorcerer spells while wearing light armour and using a shield without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a battle sorcerer wearing medium or heavy armour or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass battle sorcerer still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
Spells: A battle sorcerer casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a battle sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a battle sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the battle sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a battle sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the table below. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
The battle sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A battle sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of the battle sorcerer’s choice. At each new battle sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on the Table below. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a battle sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score. The numbers below for Known Spells are fixed.)
Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third battle sorcerer level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a battle sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the battle sorcerer “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level battle sorcerer spell the battle sorcerer can cast. A battle sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
As noted above, a bard need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.
Cantrips (Sp): Battle sorcerers know a number of cantrips. They can cast these spells at will as a spell-like ability. The number of cantrips a battle sorcerer knows is noted on the table below under 0-level spells known. Cantrips are treated like any other spell cast by the battle sorcerer in terms of duration and other variables based on level.
Eschew Materials: A battle sorcerer gains Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 3rd level.
Bloodlines: Each battle sorcerer has a source of magic somewhere in her heritage that grants her spells, bonus feats, an additional class skill, and other special abilities. This source can represent a blood relation or an extreme event involving a creature somewhere in the family’s past. For example, a battle sorcerer might have a dragon as a distant relative or her grandfather might have signed a terrible contract with a devil. Regardless of the source, this influence manifests in a number of ways as the battle sorcerer gains levels. A battle sorcerer must pick one bloodline upon taking her first level of battle sorcerer. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.
At 8th level, and every two levels thereafter, a battle sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the battle sorcerer’s list of spells known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels (although variations might exist, with GM permission).
At 7th level, and every six levels thereafter, a battle sorcerer receives one bonus feat, chosen from a list specific to each bloodline. The battle sorcerer must meet the prerequisites for these bonus feats.
For the record: the difference between a sorcerer and a battle sorcerer in how this bloodline manifests. The additional class skill and bonus feats are unchanged. Using the appropriate Bloodline table for Sorcerer’s the Bloodline Powers and Bonus Spells are calculated as if they were a Sorcerer five levels less than their Battle Sorcerer level. The table below reflects these changes. If the Bonus Spell it would grant is a spell that would ordinarily be of a spell higher level than the Battle Sorcerer can cast (based on spell levels known) it is treated as a spell-like ability the battle sorcerer can cast once per day.
Battle Sorcerer: Standard Magic System
Base
Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Lvl Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Cantrips 1 — — — — —
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 2 — — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 eschew materials 3 — — — — —
4th +3 +1 +1 +4 3 1 — — — —
5th +3 +1 +1 +4 4 2 — — — —
6th +4 +2 +2 +5 Bloodline Power (as 1st Lvl Sorcerer) 4 3 — — — —
7th +5 +2 +2 +5 Bloodline Feat 4 3 1 — — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +2 +6 Bloodline Power & Bonus Spell (as 3rd Lvl Sorcerer) 4 4 2 — — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +3 +6 5 4 3 — — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +3 +7 Bonus Spell (As 5th Lvl Sorcerer) 5 4 3 1 — —
11th +8/+3 +3 +3 +7 5 4 4 2 — —
12th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 Bonus Spell (As 7th Lvl Sorcerer) 5 5 4 3 — —
13th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 Bloodline Feat 5 5 4 3 1 —
14th +10/+5 +4 +4 +9 Bloodline Power & Bonus Spell (as 9th Lvl Sorcerer) 5 5 4 4 2 —
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +5 +9 5 5 5 4 3 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 Bonus Spell (As 11th Lvl Sorcerer) 5 5 5 4 3 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 5 5 5 4 4 2
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +6 +11 Bonus Spell (As 13th Lvl Sorcerer) 5 5 5 5 4 3
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Bloodline Feat 5 5 5 5 5 4
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Bloodline Power & Bonus Spell (as 15th Lvl Sorcerer) 5 5 5 5 5 5
Battle Sorcerer: Mana Magic System Standard Known Table
Base
Attack Fort Ref Will Mana Max Spell Known Spells
Lvl Bonus Save Save Save Special Mult. Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Cantrips 1 1st level 4 2 — — — — —
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 2 5 3 — — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 eschew materials 3 6 4 — — — — —
4th +3 +1 +1 +4 4 2nd level 6 4 2 — — — —
5th +3 +1 +1 +4 5 6 4 3 — — — —
6th +4 +2 +2 +5 Bloodline Power (as 1st Lvl Sorcerer) 6 6 4 4 — — — —
7th +5 +2 +2 +5 Bloodline Feat 7 3rd level 6 5 4 2 — — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +2 +6 Bloodline Power & Bonus Spell (as 3rd Lvl Sorcerer) 8 6 5 4 3 — — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +3 +6 9 6 5 4 4 — — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +3 +7 Bonus Spell (As 5th Lvl Sorcerer) 10 4th level 6 5 5 4 2 — —
11th +8/+3 +3 +3 +7 11 6 6 5 4 3 — —
12th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 Bonus Spell (As 7th Lvl Sorcerer) 12 6 6 5 4 4 — —
13th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 Bloodline Feat 13 5th level 6 6 5 5 4 2 —
14th +10/+5 +4 +4 +9 Bloodline Power & Bonus Spell (as 9th Lvl Sorcerer) 14 6 6 6 5 4 3 —
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +5 +9 15 6 6 6 5 4 4 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 Bonus Spell (As 11th Lvl Sorcerer) 16 6th level 6 6 6 5 5 4 2
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 17 6 6 6 6 5 4 3
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +6 +11 Bonus Spell (As 13th Lvl Sorcerer) 18 6 6 6 6 5 4 4
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Bloodline Feat 19 6 6 6 6 5 5 4
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Bloodline Power & Bonus Spell (as 15th Lvl Sorcerer) 20 6 6 6 6 6 5 5
Sorry about the table looking ... crappy here but if you're really interested I'm sure you'll figure it out. You will of course notice that the spells per day, maximum spell level and known spells is based on the Bard instead of the Sorcerer. I honestly think this works better ... sort of an Arcane Warrior ... think Psychic Warrior with Magic instead.
Takeda
What is this mana magic system you speak of? Was it in the beta pdf and I just didn't notice it?
Rubio wrote: What is this mana magic system you speak of? Was it in the beta pdf and I just didn't notice it? Err ... I should have taken that out of there I guess. It's my own homebrew system. If you message me with your email I can send it to you.
It rewards memorizing spells for those that usually prepare but you don't have to memorize necessarily. It makes your use of Mana more efficient to memorize if you are not a spontaneous caster. It also makes Spell Mastery for prepared casters very cool!
I think it's be great for Pathfinder ... ?! (Shrug)
Here's my two cents on the wizard I am currently playing. I chose universalist because I hate the thought of giving up any school at all. I like the way you allowed the specialists to lose their ability's if they really need to and then can go back to get their bonuses.
One house rule we made was to allow HUMAN wizards to take the human weapon feat and use it as a extra martial only type of feat. My DM hated the fact that a wizard that happened to be human I could wield a great axe with no problem. We compromised and he said I get a extra martial feat but it HAS to DIRECTLY relate to the weapons a wizard already knows. NP I took two weapon fighting and now when my spells run out I can still be a kick but type character.
The unlimited cantrips, my group loved them, don't change a thing.
The scribe scroll and other bonus feats a mage gets are fine and I am making my case right now for MORE SKILL POINTS PLEASE!!!. The wizard is a man of learning not some mutant that can throw a fireball. the skill points should reflect that. I am not trying to say sorcerer should get any less but I have always felt that just because you know a mage player is going to have a high INT score is no reason to punish/meta game the class. To put it in comic book terms, the scarlet witch is a mutant mage she has no control over her power and she's a mutant so she has all kinds of martial training to reflect that. Doctor strange learned all his magic and had to undergo years of study to do it, thus one punch(assuming they can get though his sheild spell) and he's out.
I guess to sum up I can say my group likes the way mages have been changed and the everything else so if your not going to give more skill points Dont take anything away.
Takeda wrote: Rubio wrote: What is this mana magic system you speak of? Was it in the beta pdf and I just didn't notice it? Err ... I should have taken that out of there I guess. It's my own homebrew system. If you message me with your email I can send it to you.
It rewards memorizing spells for those that usually prepare but you don't have to memorize necessarily. It makes your use of Mana more efficient to memorize if you are not a spontaneous caster. It also makes Spell Mastery for prepared casters very cool!
I think it's be great for Pathfinder ... ?! (Shrug) I'd certainly be interested in seeing it. Maybe fire it off to ssjrubio (that at symbol-thingie) yahoo (Dmg Over Time) com
Many spells other than the instantaneous ones need longer durations to be realistic. For example, mage armor (a glorified chain shirt) of 1 hour per level. In an encounter I as a DM require low level characters to roll a D12 /D8/ D6 to determine if their mage armor is still active. For a 1st level character they have to roll a 1 in 12 to have the bonus, otherwise the spell has expired. Given the cost of a 1st level spell at low levels, the duration is woefully insufficient. Summoning spells also have this issue. I would suggest upgrading the buff spell's durations to fixed times like 1 day, 1 hour, etc...
Rubio wrote: Takeda wrote: Rubio wrote: What is this mana magic system you speak of? Was it in the beta pdf and I just didn't notice it? Err ... I should have taken that out of there I guess. It's my own homebrew system. If you message me with your email I can send it to you.
It rewards memorizing spells for those that usually prepare but you don't have to memorize necessarily. It makes your use of Mana more efficient to memorize if you are not a spontaneous caster. It also makes Spell Mastery for prepared casters very cool!
I think it's be great for Pathfinder ... ?! (Shrug) I'd certainly be interested in seeing it. Maybe fire it off to ssjrubio (that at symbol-thingie) yahoo (Dmg Over Time) com I tried to send it to you Rubio .. but Yahoo would not let me send it to your address. I'm pretty sure I interpreted it correctly ... try me at abraxus9999 (symbol-thingie) yahoo (damage over time) co (damage over time)uk
Rynthief wrote:
I have never understood the "underpowered" nature of the sorcerer. Being able to cast on the fly more than makes up for the slower spell progression, and players in my games have always favored the sorcerer over the wizard.
That said, I agree whole-heartedly with The Wraith. The Sorcerer has never lived up to it's "outcast, self-taught" background to me. 4 Skill points a level and an expanded skill list (Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Survival?) would shore that up nicely.
Ryn, who likes his outcasts
As an "early arriver" in this thread... :p
I agree with Rynthief: Not everyone thinks sorcerors to be underpowered.
I witnessed in the groups I played:
If you want many choices and like to tinker with magic, you select a wizard.
If you hate "magic book keeping" and want instantaneous spell casting, you choose a sorceror.
In my experience no need for making sorcerors more "wizardlike".
One appeal to this thread: Please don't forget those players who are content with less choices, but easier use of the sorceror class.
Btw. I really like the concept of bloodlines!
Kr,
Günther
Guennarr wrote: As an "early arriver" in this thread... :p
I agree with Rynthief: Not everyone thinks sorcerors to be underpowered.
I witnessed in the groups I played:
If you want many choices and like to tinker with magic, you select a wizard.
If you hate "magic book keeping" and want instantaneous spell casting, you choose a sorceror.
In my experience no need for making sorcerors more "wizardlike".
One appeal to this thread: Please don't forget those players who are content with less choices, but easier use of the sorceror class.
Btw. I really like the concept of bloodlines!
Kr,
Günther
Fair enough ... I guess the only real difference with my Mana Points system is with a Wizard you can blur the lines a bit ... but at a cost. If you want to follow the Rules As Written you can and things are unchanged. If you want to use free mana to cost spells more slowly but with added flexibility you can. If it is something you have truly mastered (Spell Mastery) then you can always cast those spells as easily as a Sorcerer.
For those that haven't seen the this posted before, here's the description ... the Mana Multiplier per class/level is a bunch of tables that would not look right here.
Takeda wrote: Sorcerers and 0-Level Spells: Also called cantrips, 0-level arcane spells have a special Mana Point cost. A sorcerer can cast any cantrip he or she knows for free a number of times per day equal to his or her level +3. After exhausting his or her daily allotment, the sorcerer must pay 1 Mana Point per casting of a 0-level spell for the rest of the day.
Wizards and 0-Level Spells: Also called cantrips, 0-level arcane spells have a special Mana Point cost. A wizard can cast any cantrip he or she knows for free a number of times per day equal to his or her level +2. After exhausting his or her daily allotment, the wizard must pay 1 Mana Point per casting of a 0-level spell for the rest of the day and it takes longer to cast (as noted below with regards casting unprepared spells).
Clerics or Druids and 0-Level Spells: Also called orisons, 0-level divine spells have a special Mana Point cost. A Cleric or Druid can cast any orison he or she knows for free a number of times per day equal to his or her level +2. After exhausting his or her daily allotment, the Cleric or Druid must pay 1 Mana Point per casting of a 0-level spell for the rest of the day and it takes longer to cast (as noted below with regards casting unprepared spells).
Bards and 0-Level Spells: Also called cantrips, 0-level arcane spells have a special Mana Point cost. A bard can cast any cantrip he or she knows for free a number of times per day equal to his or her level +1. After exhausting his or her daily allotment, the bard must pay 1 Mana Point per casting of a 0-level spell for the rest of the day.
Spontaneous casters can cast any spell they ‘know’ in the time as stated in the PHB.
Non-spontaneous casters have the option of preparing spells ahead of time and doing so has a considerable benefit. Non-spontaneous casters who do not prepare a spell ahead of time can still cast it if they have the requisite Mana Points available (with the addition of 1 extra MP) but the time to cast increases significantly. Spells that can normally be cast in 1 action take a full round, full round castings take 1 minute, 1 minute castings take 10 minutes, 10 minute castings take 1 hour, etc. Applying a Meta-Magic feat to a non-prepared spell further doubles casting time! As well, casting a spell that had not been prepared ahead of time also prompts a Spellcraft check at DC 10+total Mana Points spent (*) to cast or the spell is disrupted and 1 Mana Points is lost to the ether.
*Spells are automatically cast at the minimum level necessary to cast the spell. For every Effective Caster Level added it costs 1 Mana Point. Once a spell is memorized the Mana Points are not available for boosting Effective Caster Level. The maximum amount of Mana Points that can be cast at one time are equal to the caster level of the caster. This also means that as you can't cast a spell that has more Mana Points (including the +1 for casting with available Mana) than your caster level and thus a 1st level Wizard MUST memorize all spells ahead of time unless they are Mastered.
Clerics casting Domain spells or spontaneously converting Mana Points or spells into cure/inflict spells, Druids spontaneously converting Mana Points or spells into Summon Nature’s Ally spells, Specialist Wizards casting their bonus spells or Spell Casters converting Mana Points into Mastered Spells (using the Spell Mastery Feat) do not need to prepare them and do not need to make a Spellcraft check, take extra time to prepare it or pay the +1 MP cost. Clerics casting Domain spells or specialist wizards casting bonus speciality spells also cast them for free.
Spell Level (left)------MP Cost=Base ECL
0-----------------------1
1-----------------------1
2-----------------------3
3-----------------------5
4-----------------------7
5-----------------------9
6-----------------------11
7-----------------------13
8-----------------------15
9-----------------------17
Additions to the effective spell level of the spell cast by Metamagic Feats raises the cost of the spell cast. A 3rd level spell at Base Effective Caster Level costs 5 MP to cast. If a Metamagic raised that to a 5th level, it would cost 9 MP at BECL. If the caster wanted to cast the same spell at ECL 12 (as they are a 12th level caster, that is their maximum ECL) it would cost 12 MP.
Spell Resistance checks are based upon the MP in the spell, not the Caster Level. All a caster has to do to raise the ECL is by adding MP to the spell, maximum is Caster Level of course.
The ‘Effective’ Caster Level of the spell cast is used to determine the duration, range, damage, number of targets, etc. of the spells cast.
The amount of Mana available to a spellcaster is based upon their Class-Level and the bonus modifier of their spell-casting stat. A spellcaster can determine their basic amount of mana available daily by (Mana Multiplier * Casting Statistics Bonus Modifier) to determine Base Mana available. (I.E. A 14th level Sorcerer has 21 Charisma (+5 Modifier) and has a Mana Multiplier of ‘42’ which means they have 5*42=210 Mana!) Once a spellcaster ‘has’ a Mana Multiplier they have a minimum of 1 MP per Caster-Level. (I.E. a 9th level Paladin who has had their Wisdom drained to 11 would still have (Caster Level = 9/2) 4 Mana Points but would be limited to 1st level spells. An 18th level Wizard drained to 11 Intelligence would not normally have any MP but has the minimum for their level of Caster Level=18 MP but they would be limited to 1st level spells as well.)
Spell Casters can use Vitality Points in order to help them cast spells when needed but at a cost. Vitality can only be used to take the place of MP if the caster has no MP available for normal casting. The Vitality used is considered to be ‘Drained’ and does not come back at the usual rate. Drained Vitality cannot be healed or regenerated by any means and can only be recovered with rest. If a person rests for an entire day they will recover Drained Vitality equal to their Character Level. If a caster ever uses this method to power a spell and exceeds their available Vitality the excess will be Drained Wounds and is primarily treated like typical Wound Damage. Where Drained Wounds differ from typical Wound Damage is that it cannot be healed by magical means or via regeneration and only the intervention of a Deity or the use of a Wish or Miracle can affect this type of injury. Drained Wounds heal at a rate of 1 per day of complete rest and no known means to speed up this recovery exists. If a spellcaster ever exceeds their Wound threshold solely by Drained Wounds they are irrevocably dead having depleted their very essence or soul completely and nothing was left to go on to the afterlife.
Here's the Cleric Table:
--------Mana---------Max Level of
Lvl-----Multiplier---Spell Castable
1-------2------------Up to 1st level
2-------4
3-------6------------Up to 2nd level
4-------8
5-------10-----------Up to 3rd level
6-------12
7-------14-----------Up to 4th level
8-------16
9-------18-----------Up to 5th level
10------20
11------22-----------Up to 6th level
12------24
13------26-----------Up to 7th level
14------28
15------30-----------Up to 8th level
16------32
17------34-----------Up to 9th level
18------36
19------38
20------40
Recent threads in Classes: Sorcerer and Wizard
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