Similar in what way? Paizo has already done 3 adventure paths that go from level 1-20 (Shackled City, Age of Worms, Savage Tide); is there something else that makes the Burning Sky adventure path unique? (I don't know much about it.)
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As I understood it, Paizo chose the roughly 1-15 window for Pathfinder because of D&D 3.5's difficulties in the highest levels. We'll have to see how 3.P does at fixing that problem. James Jacobs has said elsewhere on the boards that they would consider different level spread for an AP anytime that it suited the story they wanted to tell.
That said, Runelords runs roughly 1-17, not 1-15. It wouldn't take too much work to write in a few minor side-treks, adjust up the encounters in the last couple books, and you've got 1-20 right there waiting for you.
As I understood it, Paizo chose the roughly 1-15 window for Pathfinder because of D&D 3.5's difficulties in the highest levels. We'll have to see how 3.P does at fixing that problem. James Jacobs has said elsewhere on the boards that they would consider different level spread for an AP anytime that it suited the story they wanted to tell.
That said, Runelords runs roughly 1-17, not 1-15. It wouldn't take too much work to write in a few minor side-treks, adjust up the encounters in the last couple books, and you've got 1-20 right there waiting for you.
And from what I have seen, IMHO I would prefer they go the other route, and make APs that go from 1-12 (Literally 2 levels per book), as it gives more options for story and character. :)
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With the campaigns going to near epic, rather than epic itself, the endings are left much more open, and with a little work can are easily expanded to 20th and beyond. RotRL and CotCT both give ideas for further campaigning, and it wouldn't be surprising if the rest of the APs follow suit.
That said, finishing a campaign like AoW or ST did with not just a BBEG but an uber BBEG was always rewarding. Of course, those campaigns were set in the Greyhawk setting, and Golarion is still unfolding as we speak.
The potential is there, all it takes is a little work.
And from what I have seen, IMHO I would prefer they go the other route, and make APs that go from 1-12 (Literally 2 levels per book), as it gives more options for story and character. :)
Actually, it gives less options for story and character. Things like the title (and PrC) of archmage will not be available, and neither will the upper third of spell levels, not to mention capstone abilities.
The characters will not be able to explore the limits of what is possible (according to general opinion) and see how it goes on.
They will never face the most challenging foes (or even the more challenging ones).
While I know that they won't do a 20-level path again in the near future (though maybe #5 will do it - it will be the first Pathfinder RPG adventure path and maybe they want to show off everything you can do there.), I'm against lowering the cap even further.
I for one love the higher level parts of the AP everyone knows how to write a low level adventure it helps when the pros write the high level ones
Similar in what way? Paizo has already done 3 adventure paths that go from level 1-20 (Shackled City, Age of Worms, Savage Tide);Weren't those done under the auspices of WotC? It would be interesting to see what Paizo could do without such supervision.
I dont think WOTC supervised the adventure paths in any meaningful sense- it was pretty much the Paizo crew who did those three.
I am happy with the AP's as they are- if I want to slow them down (more likely for me) I can give out less exp and throw in a few sidetreks. If I want to go to higher level- well the characters finish up about 1 adventure from 20th if I really want to push it.
I reckon there are probably a few fan based '7th adventures' for the adventure paths out there if you are looking for inspiration.
I dont think WOTC supervised the adventure paths in any meaningful sense- it was pretty much the Paizo crew who did those three.
Agreed. Because the verdict is in: wizards' adventures can rarely hold a candle to Paizo's adventures - and if they can, it's written by Paizo staffers. :D
It would make sense to have a larger lvl range for the PFRPG APs.
I would prefer APs where level progression is MUCH slower. I think my party in AOW will go from 1-20 in less than one year of time in the game world. Yet, there are centuries old elves that are not even first level.
It should take many years or decades, to get to level 20.
I for one love the higher level parts of the AP everyone knows how to write a low level adventure it helps when the pros write the high level ones
True.
When Pathfinder RPG is finalized and improves high level play, I wonder what people would think if Paizo did a 5-20 AP. Personally, I don't see the need to always start at level 1 for the APs.
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I would prefer APs where level progression is MUCH slower. I think my party in AOW will go from 1-20 in less than one year of time in the game world. Yet, there are centuries old elves that are not even first level.
It should take many years or decades, to get to level 20.
Clearly elves don't progress at anything like the same rate. This was even true in Tolkien, where some of the earliest humans were worthwhile allies despite hardly living for any time at all.
PFRPG does have the option for slower progression, although that would mean you'd need to intersperse more stuff between AP sections to avoid TPK.
I hope that Paizo do the odd high-level adventures, although maybe the odd 15+ Pathfinder Module with a hook to the AP would be best. How better to illustrate that PFRPG is a better game at high levels than 3.5?
Creative Director
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Similar in what way? Paizo has already done 3 adventure paths that go from level 1-20 (Shackled City, Age of Worms, Savage Tide);Weren't those done under the auspices of WotC? It would be interesting to see what Paizo could do without such supervision.
Aside from approving outlines and art and words during the 1-hour approval meetings we'd have for each issue of Dungeon, WotC had very little to do with the adventure paths we did in Dungeon. The one exception to that, I suppose, was the outline to Age of Worms. The original outline used the words Bucknard, Tenser, and Greyhawk, and WotC asked us to change those names (to Balakarde, Manzorian, and The Free City) since they felt those were TOO associated with Greyhawk. Also, the original outline for Age of Worms had MUCH less dungeon adventures in it; the large number of dungeon crawls in Age of Worms is a direct result of WotC asking for a second draft of the adventure with more dungeons. We snuck "Prince of Redhand" in anyway.
For Savage Tide, there was very little from WotC in the realm of changes or advice; what ended up in print was pretty much the way the campaign was envisioned from the start.
So! Without WotC's "supervision," Shackled City would have turned out more or less the same, Savage Tide would have turned out the same, and Age of Worms would have been more Greyhawky and less dungeon-filled.
Also, the original outline for Age of Worms had MUCH less dungeon adventures in it; the large number of dungeon crawls in Age of Worms is a direct result of WotC asking for a second draft of the adventure with more dungeons. We snuck "Prince of Redhand" in anyway.
Amazing. My group's biggest AoW complaint was a constant clamor of "there's WAY too much dungeon crawling in this thing !!!"
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Creative Director
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Also, the original outline for Age of Worms had MUCH less dungeon adventures in it; the large number of dungeon crawls in Age of Worms is a direct result of WotC asking for a second draft of the adventure with more dungeons. We snuck "Prince of Redhand" in anyway.Amazing. My group's biggest AoW complaint was a constant clamor of "there's WAY too much dungeon crawling in this thing !!!"
For what it's worth, I agree. Which is why I was so happy that Savage Tide didn't get hit with the same request. It ended up doing relatively well without lots of dungeons, after all...
For what it's worth, I agree. Which is why I was so happy that Savage Tide didn't get hit with the same request. It ended up doing relatively well without lots of dungeons, after all...
Yup. Which all goes to say, you guys at Paizo really don't need any second-guessing by corporate overlords.
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Also, the original outline for Age of Worms had MUCH less dungeon adventures in it; the large number of dungeon crawls in Age of Worms is a direct result of WotC asking for a second draft of the adventure with more dungeons. We snuck "Prince of Redhand" in anyway.
A totally unrelated question: does this mean that we'd have seen a city-based adventure instead of Hall of Harsh Reflections? It always struck me as a too dungeon-esque adventure for the City of Greyhawk.
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For what it's worth, I agree. Which is why I was so happy that Savage Tide didn't get hit with the same request. It ended up doing relatively well without lots of dungeons, after all...Yup. Which all goes to say, you guys at Paizo really don't need any second-guessing by corporate overlords.
While I certanly agree that the qualty of Paizo is grater than that of WotC (and that some of the greatest WotC books are done by Paizonians [I loved Fiend Folio-great work, James!]), I think your comment is somewhat unfair. wasn't it supposed to be forbidden to pupsefully flame other companies in the messgeboards?
While I certanly agree that the qualty of Paizo is grater than that of WotC (and that some of the greatest WotC books are done by Paizonians [I loved Fiend Folio-great work, James!]), I think your comment is somewhat unfair. wasn't it supposed to be forbidden to pupsefully flame other companies in the messgeboards?
Lord Snow,
Thanks for the heads-up. I intended it more as a "Go Paizo!" cheer than a "boo somebody else" jeer, but I could see how you could interpret it that way. Let me clarify that I have no wish to take anything away from WotC, and let me strongly state that in no way do I intend, advocate, or otherwise feel tolerant towards any "flaming."I just notice that, when it comes to writing adventures, Paizo is more in tune with what I personally like to play.
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How about a few 15-20th level stand alone modules? These could be played by people who want to take their AP characters as high as they can, or they could also be used for people who want to occassionly play high level adventures without having to go through the steps of playing the characters to build them up.
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While I certanly agree that the qualty of Paizo is grater than that of WotC (and that some of the greatest WotC books are done by Paizonians [I loved Fiend Folio-great work, James!]), I think your comment is somewhat unfair. wasn't it supposed to be forbidden to pupsefully flame other companies in the messgeboards?Lord Snow,
Thanks for the heads-up. I intended it more as a "Go Paizo!" cheer than a "boo somebody else" jeer, but I could see how you could interpret it that way. Let me clarify that I have no wish to take anything away from WotC, and let me strongly state that in no way do I intend, advocate, or otherwise feel tolerant towards any "flaming."I just notice that, when it comes to writing adventures, Paizo is more in tune with what I personally like to play.
that's more like it, and now I can say that I agree completley- Paizo rocks!
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Creative Director
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Also, the original outline for Age of Worms had MUCH less dungeon adventures in it; the large number of dungeon crawls in Age of Worms is a direct result of WotC asking for a second draft of the adventure with more dungeons. We snuck "Prince of Redhand" in anyway.A totally unrelated question: does this mean that we'd have seen a city-based adventure instead of Hall of Harsh Reflections? It always struck me as a too dungeon-esque adventure for the City of Greyhawk.
Probably so, yes. It also means that the 2nd adventure would have been a LOT more about Balabar Smenk and adventuring in Diamond Lake, with the dungeon element a LOT smaller.
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Creative Director
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How about a few 15-20th level stand alone modules? These could be played by people who want to take their AP characters as high as they can, or they could also be used for people who want to occassionly play high level adventures without having to go through the steps of playing the characters to build them up.
That's actually something we've been talking about. The problem remains that high level adventures are traditionally not good sellers; not enough folk like them. But is that because they're unpopular? Or because ones that were made were lame? Hard to say.
ANYway... we've got a 15th-level module coming next year, and we're using that to test waters. Once the PF RPG launches in August, I hope that high-level play will be a bit easier to handle and hope to get some more stuff out there...
ANYway... we've got a 15th-level module coming next year, and we're using that to test waters. Once the PF RPG launches in August, I hope that high-level play will be a bit easier to handle and hope to get some more stuff out there...
Here's hoping it is a followup to Runelords, or at least set in Varisia and made with hooks for the three currently published APs.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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For what it's worth, I agree. Which is why I was so happy that Savage Tide didn't get hit with the same request. It ended up doing relatively well without lots of dungeons, after all...Yup. Which all goes to say, you guys at Paizo really don't need any second-guessing by corporate overlords.
QFT.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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How about a few 15-20th level stand alone modules? These could be played by people who want to take their AP characters as high as they can, or they could also be used for people who want to occassionly play high level adventures without having to go through the steps of playing the characters to build them up.
It's very likely we will produce one or more of these in the months and years to come.
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I am not sure where all the expense comes in publishing modules but if it is in fact the printing of the modules then maybe doing some PDF only high level adventures would be a good idea. I know that does not fit the focus of Paizo's plans but could lower the cost and allow for more high level adventures.
Just a thought really.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Probably so, yes. It also means that the 2nd adventure would have been a LOT more about Balabar Smenk and adventuring in Diamond Lake, with the dungeon element a LOT smaller.Also, the original outline for Age of Worms had MUCH less dungeon adventures in it; the large number of dungeon crawls in Age of Worms is a direct result of WotC asking for a second draft of the adventure with more dungeons. We snuck "Prince of Redhand" in anyway.A totally unrelated question: does this mean that we'd have seen a city-based adventure instead of Hall of Harsh Reflections? It always struck me as a too dungeon-esque adventure for the City of Greyhawk.
The original Age of Worms outline had three City of Greyhawk-based adventures that involved getting entangled with Balabar Smenk's patron on the Directing Oligarchy and intrigue with the Guild of Wizardry. The Hall of Harsh Reflections was one of the three adventures, and Zyrxog's network of doppelganger spies would lead directly to the plot involving the oligarchs. This would have all come to a head in the final battle in "The Champion's Belt," with a return visit by Smenk and a few other surprises.
They said no, and asked for fewer modules and more dungeons. So that's what they got.
A lot of what I'd been planning to do ended up making it into the City of Greyhawk section of "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk," which included cameos from several Age of Worms characters (notably Khellek and Tirra, who originally came from the 1980s comic book ads for D&D and who served as the "rival adventurers" in the Age of Worms AP.
So all's well that ends well, but I prefer getting to make our own decisions about what to include or not include in our adventure paths.
The original Age of Worms outline had three City of Greyhawk-based adventures that involved getting entangled with Balabar Smenk's patron on the Directing Oligarchy and intrigue with the Guild of Wizardry. The Hall of Harsh Reflections was one of the three adventures, and Zyrxog's network of doppelganger spies would lead directly to the plot involving the oligarchs. This would have all come to a head in the final battle in "The Champion's Belt," with a return visit by Smenk and a few other surprises.
They said no, and asked for fewer modules and more dungeons. So that's what they got.
A lot of what I'd been planning to do ended up making it into the City of Greyhawk section of "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk," which included cameos from several Age of Worms characters (notably Khellek and Tirra, who originally came from the 1980s comic book ads for D&D and who served as the "rival adventurers" in the Age of Worms AP.
So all's well that ends well, but I prefer getting to make our own decisions about what to include or not include in our adventure paths.
I know you are really busy, but as one who is looking to run AOW in the near future- do you have any old 'adventure plot summaries' lying around for these bits that would enable you to elaborate?
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I know you are really busy, but as one who is looking to run AOW in the near future- do you have any old 'adventure plot summaries' lying around for these bits that would enable you to elaborate?
Sadly, things never progressed far beyond the outline stage, so there are no mysterious notebook pages with these sorts of details. The sparse outline didn't have much to go on, I'm afraid, so even posting that (which I probably shouldn't do and can't find anyway) would be of limited help.
I suggest checking out "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk," specifically the city portion of the book (which I wrote). The "home tavern" in Age of Worms was originally supposed to be the Green Dragon Inn, which I later incorporated into that module.
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Creative Director
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I know you are really busy, but as one who is looking to run AOW in the near future- do you have any old 'adventure plot summaries' lying around for these bits that would enable you to elaborate?
The original Age of Worms outline had three City of Greyhawk-based adventures that involved getting entangled with Balabar Smenk's patron on the Directing Oligarchy and intrigue with the Guild of Wizardry. The Hall of Harsh Reflections was one of the three adventures, and Zyrxog's network of doppelganger spies would lead directly to the plot involving the oligarchs. This would have all come to a head in the final battle in "The Champion's Belt," with a return visit by Smenk and a few other surprises.
They said no, and asked for fewer modules and more dungeons. So that's what they got.
A lot of what I'd been planning to do ended up making it into the City of Greyhawk section of "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk," which included cameos from several Age of Worms characters (notably Khellek and Tirra, who originally came from the 1980s comic book ads for D&D and who served as the "rival adventurers" in the Age of Worms AP.
So all's well that ends well, but I prefer getting to make our own decisions about what to include or not include in our adventure paths.
Erik worked a lot of those extra plots into our office Age of Worms game. My character's journal of that campaign's probably the best place to go for those notes... although said notes are in fiction format...
I suggest checking out "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk," specifically the city portion of the book (which I wrote). The "home tavern" in Age of Worms was originally supposed to be the Green Dragon Inn, which I later incorporated into that module.
I'm starting to see why my weaving together of Age of Worms with Expedition made such a perfect fit...
Erik worked a lot of those extra plots into our office Age of Worms game. My character's journal of that campaign's probably the best place to go for those notes... although said notes are in fiction format...
Thanks for the clues, I shall investigate these resources.
I think your comment is somewhat unfair. wasn't it supposed to be forbidden to pupsefully flame other companies in the messgeboards?
You can criticise a company without flaming it.
And from all I've heard and seen, wizards can't do decent adventures. That's not an attack on their personality, and I'm not saying "their adventures suck because their parents are siblings" or something.
It should take many years or decades, to get to level 20.
Where's the fun in that? I don't want to play decades, but I do want to get to level 20.
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I know you are really busy, but as one who is looking to run AOW in the near future- do you have any old 'adventure plot summaries' lying around for these bits that would enable you to elaborate?Sadly, things never progressed far beyond the outline stage, so there are no mysterious notebook pages with these sorts of details. The sparse outline didn't have much to go on, I'm afraid, so even posting that (which I probably shouldn't do and can't find anyway) would be of limited help.
While I completely understand such issues as NDAs and copyright, it always saddens me that they mean that we never get to see any of this stuff. I'd love to get a copy of the deltas that a published adventure goes through while being worked on. Some commentary on why options were discarded and things were changed would be great, but that then makes it costly to do. I just think that it would be a valuable insight into the workings of some clever minds.
While I completely understand such issues as NDAs and copyright, it always saddens me that they mean that we never get to see any of this stuff. I'd love to get a copy of the deltas that a published adventure goes through while being worked on. Some commentary on why options were discarded and things were changed would be great, but that then makes it costly to do. I just think that it would be a valuable insight into the workings of some clever minds.
Man, you wound not believe the rows of filing cabinets we have locked away in the Paizo basement. It a practical vault filled with discarded Adventure Path workbooks, unrealized adventure submission, and monsters too terrible to unleash upon the world. It's like the warehouse at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark. We keep them all down there in hopes that maybe one day the world will be ready for such ideas, out of fear that they can't be destroyed, and as insurance should some fool ever force us to reveal our true hand.
Gaze not into the abyss, dude... 'cause there's nothing there.
Honestly (as much as I just wanted to press submit and leave it at that), aside from a few notes that might get jotted down in a notebook or a Word file here or there, the vast majority of the prewriting for an Adventure Path becomes the outline we send to authors and publish in the first volume of an AP. That's why sometimes the outline is different from the actually adventures as things evolve over the course of months. I'd love to say that tomes are written in the development of APs, but honestly we just don't have the time for it. In fact, most get hashed out in grueling brainstorms/mental duels/endurance matches between James and I late at night or in the car going to lunch--and usually sparked by Erik threatening us with the next round of book and game store solicitations.
So yeah, as much as we'd love to provide a director's cut AP, and I guess that's not outside the realm of possibility, that info largely resides in the heads of the designers and developers. So, sorta, these message boards are it. What do you wanta know?
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While I completely understand such issues as NDAs and copyright, it always saddens me that they mean that we never get to see any of this stuff. I'd love to get a copy of the deltas that a published adventure goes through while being worked on. Some commentary on why options were discarded and things were changed would be great, but that then makes it costly to do. I just think that it would be a valuable insight into the workings of some clever minds.Man, you wound not believe the rows of filing cabinets we have locked away in the Paizo basement. It a practical vault filled with discarded Adventure Path workbooks, unrealized adventure submission, and monsters too terrible to unleash upon the world. It's like the warehouse at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark. We keep them all down there in hopes that maybe one day the world will be ready for such ideas, out of fear that they can't be destroyed, and as insurance should some fool ever force us to reveal our true hand.
Gaze not into the abyss, dude... 'cause there's nothing there.
Honestly (as much as I just wanted to press submit and leave it at that), aside from a few notes that might get jotted down in a notebook or a Word file here or there, the vast majority of the prewriting for an Adventure Path becomes the outline we send to authors and publish in the first volume of an AP. That's why sometimes the outline is different from the actually adventures as things evolve over the course of months. I'd love to say that tomes are written in the development of APs, but honestly we just don't have the time for it. In fact, most get hashed out in grueling brainstorms/mental duels/endurance matches between James and I late at night or in the car going to lunch--and usually sparked by Erik threatening us with the next round of book and game store solicitations.
So yeah, as much as we'd love to provide a director's cut AP, and I guess that's not outside the realm of possibility, that info largely resides in the heads of the designers...
Then perhaps it is time to drain your minds of that knowledge! ~I look at my brain scanning machine~ Get the knowledge out of Mr. Schneider's head! ~It begins scanning your mind, then bursts into flames~ Curses! Foiled again! I will have my REVENGE!!!
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Man, you wound not believe the rows of filing cabinets we have locked away in the Paizo basement. It a practical vault filled with discarded Adventure Path workbooks, unrealized adventure submission, and monsters too terrible to unleash upon the world.
...that info largely resides in the heads of the designers and developers.
We can thus conclude that you have a basement full of heads in filing cabinets. Even on the West Coast, that is probably illegal.
We can this conclude that you have a basement full of heads in filing cabinets.
Yes. Yes you can.
Even on the West Coast, that is probably illegal.
Even cops gotta game, that's all I'm saying.
With the last module of the WotBS AP released by EN World (did you see the stats on the BB!?!), has there been talking among the Paizo staff to see if they, too, could do a similar AP?
For those not familiar with War of the Burning Sky, I was the lead designer.
In my opinion, 1st to 20th was a bit too much for us to tackle. You'll notice we put out the last adventure 10 months late. Now Paizo has a much larger staff and better budget, so I'm sure they wouldn't have a problem logistically. But there is the trouble of having a concept that can stretch over 20 levels (and probably a year and a half or more of gameplay) without getting stale.
I originally wanted to go 5th through 20th with WotBS, since at least then you'd start as heroes rather than everyday people, but Morrus wanted to follow Paizo's lead and do 1st through 20th.
It's just a little odd to have the same character go from having trouble getting out of a burning building as bounty hunters attack (the first encounter in the first adventure) to cleaving his way through dozens of devils, elite palace guards, undead phalanxes, and unholy clerics in order to seal a rift to Hell (the first encounter in the last adventure).
Paizo makes great adventures on their own, so even I don't know what they might be inclined to mine from WotBS. I mean, it's not like we did anything ridiculously innovative; we just created what is in my opinion a damn fine story, and made sure the PCs were able to shape that story as they saw fit.
But to all the Paizo folks, if you're interested in taking a look at Burning Sky, let me know and I'll send you the pdfs.
But there is the trouble of having a concept that can stretch over 20 levels (and probably a year and a half or more of gameplay) without getting stale.
We went through Rise of the Runelords in 6-9 months, and that took the players from 1 all the way to 16 (and they rushed ahead at the end, or they'd have been 17). Not that much of a stretch to make it go all the way up.
I think it can be done with a regular adventure path and a couple of modules that pick up where the path left. If they called them official aftermath modules or something, and extended the Pathfinder Advantage to them (the getting free PDFs part, and maybe even the 30% off part), it could work quite well.
It's just a little odd to have the same character go from having trouble getting out of a burning building as bounty hunters attack (the first encounter in the first adventure) to cleaving his way through dozens of devils, elite palace guards, undead phalanxes, and unholy clerics in order to seal a rift to Hell (the first encounter in the last adventure).
You call that odd. I call that D&D.
Paizo makes great adventures on their own, so even I don't know what they might be inclined to mine from WotBS.
I think it's not their style. They like to do their own thing, maybe inspired by classics.
And I must say that they're more than capable of coming up with awesome stuff. Way awesome. I just finished reading Children of the Void and damn! It even has an outcast drow in it that is awesome. Not soppy ranger who'd like to nurse hurt birdies back to health awesome, but drow awesome!
I'd say the drow have come home.