Just to nitpick, and a bit off-topic..
If drow are transformed elves in the world of Golarion, wouldn't a template be more appropriate? Or would this be unnecessary paperwork? Also, would they inherit any kind of subtype?
Honestly, I don't know when any of this would ever come up in a game, but just curious...
Creative Director
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Just to nitpick, and a bit off-topic..
If drow are transformed elves in the world of Golarion, wouldn't a template be more appropriate? Or would this be unnecessary paperwork? Also, would they inherit any kind of subtype?
Honestly, I don't know when any of this would ever come up in a game, but just curious...
Nah. It works fine without a template, since humanoid races like elves and drow (and humans, and dwarves, and ANY race that doesn't have hit dice of its own) are basically ALREADY templates.
You can turn an elf into a drow simply by changing its race traits, in other words. Easy! Technically, you could do the same with ANY race like this; drow to dwarf to halfling to goblin to human to whatever.
For my own games, the difficulty with drow==evil is that it tends to cut out roleplaying possibilities. I recall the PC party leader's love affair with a priestess of Vecna in SCAP. He was pretty doubtful that she would ever change her nature, but on the other hand, it wasn't *impossible*--so he went a long way down an increasingly troublesome path, hoping. If the players know for a fact that drow evilness is a moral absolute, situations like this are less likely to arise. (And my player also GMs in Golarion, so I can't assume he hasn't read the support material.)
We are preparing to run SD using tbug's "Winter Council agents" idea--that is, the PCs are working explicitly for the Winter Council from the start. (The plotline as written just can't be made to work for us at all.) My player is currently considering a drow-raised-by-surface-elves PC, and one of his interests in doing so is exploring whether she can, in fact, overcome her heritage--this needs to be an open question, or the interest of the character is lost.
For me personally, any time you say "This is 100% guaranteed good/evil, no possibility of change, no questions" you're reducing the interest of the scenario. One of my frustrations with Paizo's work has been that, while you're very strong on corruption, redemption is often explicitly ruled out--the ending of SCAP is an example. Perhaps there's a vocal faction of players who hate that type of ambiguity and want to kill bad guys with a clean conscience. But my group would have been bitterly disappointed.
Mary
I'm everyone's hero. It goes without saying.I thought Sebastian was your hero?FWS is my new hero.Mine too.
Great, now I've got "Everyone's a hero.." from Dr Horrible stuck in my head... [/threadjack]
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If the players know for a fact that drow evilness is a moral absolute, situations like this are less likely to arise. (And my player also GMs in Golarion, so I can't assume he hasn't read the support material.)
But even if your players know drow = evil.. do their characters? They are some of the first to meet drow face to face in the world. Why wouldn't they suspect that the evil drow don't just kill good drow on their 3rd act of kindness towards an outsider? or that there is a society of good drow that was pushed further into the Darklands by their evil brethren? While the player may know this, the PC has no prior knowledge of the race at all, it is their job (with help from the DM) to separate these facts.
Yup, Golarion drow aren't just evil because of upbringing, society, environment, diet or whatever else that makes Orcs go aaargh and Goblins go squeee. They are evil because they made a choice that taints their blood so strongly, that they are beyond redemption. Or that's how I see it... it runs in the blood, basically.To say that the demonic taint in your blood makes you beyond redemption would mean that there could never be a good tiefling character either, or that, if using Pathfinder, that all sorcerers with Abyssal or Infernal bloodlines have to be evil as well. The first drow did make the choice to consort with the demonic powers, but since then they have become a race that breeds true rather than being born a normal elf and undergoing the transformation later. I think that there is room for the occasional good drow, but they should be rare and an outcast among their own people and the surface dwellers. The player should also have a real good reason why they did not under go the "cure" for their condition that JB mentioned earlier.
Heh...slightly (well, okay, maybe more than slightly) off-topic, if you take a gander at the 3.0 half-outsider templates (and 3.5, I think, but I couldn't get past the massive increased uberness that made them unplayable as PCs), the text for half-fiends reads, and I quote:
"All too rarely, though, one learns from and takes on the characteristics of its nonfiendish parent, turning from its evil heritage." [page 215, 3rd ed. MMI]
which implies it might be possible to be non-evil, at least. Then, on the next page in the summary statistics for Alignment, it lists: Always evil (any), which to me contradicts what was said so well before. In my house rules, half-fiends are any non-good (thus giving them a chance at "redemption" [they didn't ask to be born that way, folks]), while half-celestials are any non-evil. I do have an NPC bouncer/temple guard at The Publican House in Riddleport who's a 3.0 half-demon template on a PF half-orc, Chaotic Neutral worshipper of Cayden Cailean (and bears a slight resemblance to a certain popular red half-demon from our world <G>), and I'd be a more than a bit impressed, if not scared, of a Lawful Neutral "Wrath-of-gods" half-celestial...
....no GOOD DROW EVER!!!!
.... said Joan Crawford, just before beating her daughter with a Drizz't doll...
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....no GOOD DROW EVER!!!!.... said Joan Crawford, just before beating her daughter with a Drizz't doll...
Junkies down in Brooklyn are going crazy
They're laughing just like hungry dogs in the streetPolicemen are hiding behind the skirts of little girls
Their eyes have turned the color of frozen meat
What I hate most is thinking creatures that never change.
I think that Golarion after SD has more potential for non-evil drow: The secret is probably out now, and there will be more interaction between drow and surface races. Only a matter of time before some of those drow have a change of heart, or are converted. I can even see small communities of them on the surface.
It doesn't have anything to do with people who can't think of original character concepts, or with people who have to label everything with four words at most (thus every drow who isn't a mass-murdering psycho is suddenly a "drizzt clone"), it's logical.
Plus, I liked FR's Vhaeraun, and, to some extent, Eilistraee. When they died, they took much of the Realms with them into Oblivion, at least for me.
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Creative Director
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Eilistraee is, hands down, my favorite of all the FR gods.
But that said, while having a non-evil drow PC is perfectly legit and fine in Golarion, we'll probably not be having any non-evil drow NPCs show up in official adventures or products anytime soon. I kind of think that having a lot of non-evil drow is one of the cooler aspects of the Forgotten Realms, honestly. It's one of many things that help to set that world apart form Greyhawk, Golarion, and other "standard" D&D worlds.
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Plus, I liked FR's Vhaeraun, and, to some extent, Eilistraee. When they died, they took much of the Realms with them into Oblivion, at least for me.
You have to embrace the idea of Discontinuity. It makes things a lot easier(incidentally, it works great on comics and Star Wars as well). I used it here and there throughout 3.x, and pretty much everywhere for 4E so far. Some Guy's word on what may have happened in the Realms is just that as far as I'm concerned: some guy's word. It doesn't matter to me.
Of course, I never really used Elistraee in a Realms sense, but she is the goddess of all elvenkind in my homebrew, so I'm fairly attatched to her.
Then, on the next page in the summary statistics for Alignment, it lists: Always evil (any), which to me contradicts what was said so well before.
I just noticed how old this post was, but just in case you pass by again, keep in mind that "Always _____" doesn't actually mean "always ______". According to the Monster Manual itself, even. (this also applies to the any non-______ bit)
Eilistraee is
having a lot of non-evil drow is one of the cooler aspects of the Forgotten Realms
Was. On both counts.
Eilistraee is dead, and all non-evil drow have been magically transformed into dark-skinned elves - and everyone who is a drow is beyond redeption. At least that's what I've read about it - I stopped reading that crap long before it got that far.
Still, I got far enough to see that in the Realms, you can kill gods with spells. Sure, it was elven high magic, but you got to wonder why the elves haven't wiped out the drow and orc pantheon long ago.
You have to embrace the idea of Discontinuity. It makes things a lot easier(incidentally, it works great on comics and Star Wars as well). I used it here and there throughout 3.x, and pretty much everywhere for 4E so far. Some Guy's word on what may have happened in the Realms is just that as far as I'm concerned: some guy's word. It doesn't matter to me.
Yeah, but that means that my setting doesn't get any support at all now. I used to get novels for the setting, I used to get rulebooks. That will never happen again.
I like a setting that is still supported, so I'll rather play Pathfinder Chronicles (and run adventure paths there, which means I don't have to refit everything) and read PFC fiction.
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Creative Director
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Eilistraee is
having a lot of non-evil drow is one of the cooler aspects of the Forgotten Realms
Was. On both counts.
Eilistraee is dead, and all non-evil drow have been magically transformed into dark-skinned elves - and everyone who is a drow is beyond redeption. At least that's what I've read about it - I stopped reading that crap long before it got that far.
Still, I got far enough to see that in the Realms, you can kill gods with spells. Sure, it was elven high magic, but you got to wonder why the elves haven't wiped out the drow and orc pantheon long ago.
Reason #234 why 4th edition is not for me. And its easy enough to ignore. So, as far as I'm concerned (and as far as, I suspect, most FR fans and creators are concerned), "is" remains the correct word to use. On both counts.
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Eilistraee is
having a lot of non-evil drow is one of the cooler aspects of the Forgotten Realms
Was. On both counts.
Eilistraee is dead, and all non-evil drow have been magically transformed into dark-skinned elves - and everyone who is a drow is beyond redeption. At least that's what I've read about it - I stopped reading that crap long before it got that far.
Still, I got far enough to see that in the Realms, you can kill gods with spells. Sure, it was elven high magic, but you got to wonder why the elves haven't wiped out the drow and orc pantheon long ago.
LALALALALALA
never happened...
the realms in my mind are as they were and Eiliastree is still on of the coolest gods.... in this I agree with both you and James
Reason #234 why 4th edition is not for me. And its easy enough to ignore. So, as far as I'm concerned (and as far as, I suspect, most FR fans and creators are concerned), "is" remains the correct word to use. On both counts.
agreed
Pleas understand it is not that I don't like the idea of a classic Anti-Hero. It's all the chaootic Good Drow running around that kills it for me. Back in the day the only good Drow was the dead one. I loved the books just tired of the clones. There need to be a few foes left that when you run into them, they are evil, they are beyond redemption, they know it and you know it. Truth be known even the other non-ogl evil races have some character who is ok. even the Mindflayers. enough I say. sometimes its good to have a evil just be evil. no ambiguity allowed. But hey maybe its just me. Or maybe thats why so many people like demons/devils. They are evil
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However I don't nessecarily want to play a good drow... neutral will do just fine for me. I can understand the thought that the evil is so ingrained you just can't get past a certain point, but getting up to neutral doesn't seem like it should be so impossible.
Heck that drow merc that the assassin in the drizzt series (forgot the names forgive me, got a kid and more important things now) seemed more neutral to me than evil (as did the drow wizard in the war of the spider queen series).
Reason #234 why 4th edition is not for me. And its easy enough to ignore. So, as far as I'm concerned (and as far as, I suspect, most FR fans and creators are concerned), "is" remains the correct word to use. On both counts.
Yes, I know, it's easy to ignore. It still turns the once-living and breathing Forgotten Realms into a stale world that gets no more official updates.
One of the things I really loved about the Realms was that there was a lot going on. But the new material is useless and unusable, so one of the major reaons for choosing the Realms as my prime setting are gone. Now there isn't really any setting that appeals to me in general flavour and that gets that kind of support.
In regards to support, Golarion doesn't even come close to FR at its height (though it might come close once we get novels). Part of that is by design (the accessories are intentionally left incomplete so the GM can flesh it out himself. Which is good, but I did like the FR way quite a lot, too: Explain the world in great detail)
Pleas understand it is not that I don't like the idea of a classic Anti-Hero. It's all the chaootic Good Drow running around that kills it for me. Back in the day the only good Drow was the dead one. I loved the books just tired of the clones.
There are no hordes of Drizzt clones. Not in my version of the world. In fact, I guess every version of th world, there will only be a handful. It's just that a lot of people have their own versions, with their own handful.
There need to be a few foes left that when you run into them, they are evil, they are beyond redemption, they know it and you know it.
I don't see why. Sure, it's great in Diablo - if you can attack-click it, it's obviously worth XP (whether it's hostile doesn't come into it) - but in RPGs, I like to keep people on their toes. You can never be 100% sure.
Plus, if we needed evil beyond redemption, we should look for them in the outsider section, especially fiends. Those guys are made of evil. And even then, there can be redeemed ones. And if those incarnations of malignity can change, a mere humanoid can overcome his cultural programming.
It doesn't mean you have to subdue rather than kill everyone in order to attempt to redeem them, but it does mean that there is a chance that redemption is impossible.
Seriously: Humans can be any alignment, and have no preferred alignment at all.
But even dervishes of Serenrae, goddess of redemption, will only give them one chance to surrender, and will not go out of their way to try to redeem everyone. And they're the really nice ones.
So why is the chance (however small, and certainly a lot smaller than humans) that a drow might be redeemable that bad? It won't really stop anyone from slaughtering them wholesale.
no ambiguity allowed.
Give me ambiguity, or give me "ambiguity".
Upon reflection, I believe that if there was a practise of using the novel lines to add details to the FR, such as you seem to me to suggest was occuring (if I understand you correctly), that that may have been where the FR started to go wrong.
The novels did change the Realms. I have no problem with that.
But going from Realms-Shaking Events in every novel to Realms-Shattering Events in every novel, and then making it even worse in the RPG book, that was when it went wrong.
If novel lines and campaign-settings exist for the same Campaign world, then in my opinion the campaign setting should be left to detail the world, and the novels should get on with telling great stories about people, whilst strictly observing Campaign Setting canon.
The novels must be allowed to change the world, otherwise nothing could happen.
It's all a matter of scale, though, and of timing.
To compare the FR to Golarion: If Golarion were made by wizards, we'd have Earthfalls every other week (not every week, because the other weeks would be occupied by Aroden dying)
(And I would like to add that feeling obliged to buy novels or out-of-print earlier edition game material to check things that hadn't been given in 3.5 FR Setting material annoyed me greatly.)
The Campaign Setting cannot contain all the information, ever. Unless you make it ten times as big as it was before.
And that's the problem: People complained that they couldn't know everything about the setting just from the Campaign Setting, but instead of just getting into another setting, they whined and whined until wizards gave in and killed the Realms.
The problem is: If you did want the level of detail you used to get in the Realms, with all the novels and all that, you're now left out in the cold, since there isn't anything like that out there. The whiners could have used a different setting. You cannot.
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Plus, if we needed evil beyond redemption, we should look for them in the outsider section, especially fiends. Those guys are made of evil. And even then, there can be redeemed ones. And if those incarnations of malignity can change, a mere humanoid can overcome his cultural programming.
It doesn't mean you have to subdue rather than kill everyone in order to attempt to redeem them, but it does mean that there is a chance that redemption is impossible.
Seriously: Humans can be any alignment, and have no preferred alignment at all.
But even dervishes of Serenrae, goddess of redemption, will only give them one chance to surrender, and will not go out of their way to try to redeem everyone. And they're the really nice ones.
So why is the chance (however small, and certainly a lot smaller than humans) that a drow might be redeemable that bad? It won't really stop anyone from slaughtering them wholesale.
I think some players are worried that, if the possibility of good drow is made official, their DMs will demand that they try to spare every one, and take them back to the surface, to be love-bombed back to the bosom of their elf-brothers and -sisters.
There's enough evidence of DMs with a hate for paladins, only too willing to declare that a PC has fallen from grace, because he didn't give Eclavdra a cup of tea and ask about her difficult childhood.
I think some players are worried that, if the possibility of good drow is made official, their DMs will demand that they try to spare every one, and take them back to the surface, to be love-bombed back to the bosom of their elf-brothers and -sisters.
Nothing that cannot be cured with liberal amounts of violence.
If you suspect your GM of being worthy of a World of Pain, ask yourself this: Does he require you to spare every single human, dwarf, elf, halfling, orc, goblin, etc. in order to redeem them? If no, you're save and can keep killing drow unless they show really strong signs of not being evil NPTs that are supposed to give you treasure and XP.
If yes, play it safe and torture your GM a bit, to make sure that you're not to be messed with.
If any of my players read it: Don't even think about it. You'll fail, anyway. Plus, I wouldn't pull such a cheap trick, anyway. I have far more expensive tricks! Ask any paladin who was attacked by his lover in a final fight...
And yet strangely TSR/WotC managed all that detail in second edition with their boxed sets and Volo's guide type series.
Was a different managament back then, probably. Current made the error of listening to non-fans and firing fans to accomodate non-fans.
On a different topic do I understand you to be european? If so, have you seen our website for PaizoCon UK?
No. But I don't think I can manage to attend, anyway. I might keep it in mind for next year, though.
I don't understand why some people so desperately want to have good drow.
I want the possibility of good drow. Not a lot of them, maybe not even a sizable minority, but it has to be possible.
The original Drizzt story hits it spot on: One in a million chance where a drow is strong enough to stay good despite all the pressure, and manages to escape his race.
The concept of Eilistraeeans, and, to an extent, Vhaeraunans, intriguies me as well: A small number of individuals escaping their society and settling down elsewhere. Maybe not thousands, maybe not even hundreds, but a dozen or three should be possible.
If there's Tarnished Metallic Dragons, Redeemed Chromatic Dragons, Fallen Angels, and the like, just flat out saying "all drow are evil, there are never, NEVER, any non-evil drow" totally destroys credibility for me. Plus, never is a dumb word.
Exceptions to the rule need to be VERY few and far between, otherwise the rule is a rule no more.
It's a rule for outsiders, and nearly so for dragons. It's not for humanoids. It's a very strong guideline at best.
Plus, this isn't about forcing players into moral quandaries or nonsense like that - there's plenty of potential for that with a hundred other critters.
I think some players are worried that, if the possibility of good drow is made official, their DMs will demand that they try to spare every one, and take them back to the surface, to be love-bombed back to the bosom of their elf-brothers and -sisters.There's enough evidence of DMs with a hate for paladins, only too willing to declare that a PC has fallen from grace, because he didn't give Eclavdra a cup of tea and ask about her difficult childhood.
Worst DM ever.
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Just to be clear, I'm not calling out any DM of mine on this.
But there are plenty of horror stories of this sort of thing.
One long-running thread in the Dragon Magazine forums ran for years, with examples of;
- the ranger, forced to defend a sleeping wyvern, until it awoke and proved it was a bloodthirsty beast,
- the paladin, forced to stabilise the wounds of every last surviving cultist, and lead them round for the rest of the adventure in a giant conga-line, until they could be walked hundreds of miles back to face trial,
- the druids, forced to portray multiple personality disorders ('Did you do some good yesterday? Save some villagers? Well, guess what? Today, you have to kill them! It's essential to Preserve the Balance!').
- and many, many, oh, god, so many more....
So let's say you were going to have a PC play a non-evil drow. As DM(and considering the beta rules) what racial stats would you give the drow?
I don't understand why some people so desperately want to have good drow.I want the possibility of good drow. Not a lot of them, maybe not even a sizable minority, but it has to be possible.
The original Drizzt story hits it spot on: One in a million chance where a drow is strong enough to stay good despite all the pressure, and manages to escape his race.
The concept of Eilistraeeans, and, to an extent, Vhaeraunans, intriguies me as well: A small number of individuals escaping their society and settling down elsewhere. Maybe not thousands, maybe not even hundreds, but a dozen or three should be possible.
If there's Tarnished Metallic Dragons, Redeemed Chromatic Dragons, Fallen Angels, and the like, just flat out saying "all drow are evil, there are never, NEVER, any non-evil drow" totally destroys credibility for me. Plus, never is a dumb word.
This was a great post KaeYoss. Pretty much, exactly the way that I feel about it. I would like to elaborate a bit. What happens to the Drow that are forced to flee their home city? Are they supposed to wander around the under dark until they're eaten by hook horrors or whatever? You gotta figure that eventually, some of them are going to have to hit the surface. Once there, the whole domineering, back stabby schtick that they've got going isn't gonna fly quite so well. They're going to need friends to help them survive and not get lynched. I'm not saying that this will be the case for evey drow that manages to bubble up to the surface, but it's got to happen every once and a while, right? That was a bit long and ranty, sorry.
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]the ranger, forced to defend a sleeping wyvern, until it awoke and proved it was a bloodthirsty beast, the paladin, forced to stabilise the wounds of every last surviving cultist, and lead them round for the rest of the adventure in a giant conga-line, until they could be walked hundreds of miles back to face trial, the druids, forced to portray multiple personality disorders ('Did you do some good yesterday? Save some villagers? Well, guess what? Today, you have to kill them! It's essential to Preserve the Balance!'). and many, many, oh, god, so many more....[/list]
IMO these all stem from an overly simplistic or immature understanding of the alignment sytem and morality in general. Life, whether in IRL or RPG, is complicated. There are no simple problems or simple solutions.
An understanding that the world is a grey scale, not black and white is essential, because only Sith deal in absolutes.
Do or do not. There is no try
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I disagree. No good drow in any game anywhere ever, ever. If you make a good drow and run it in Golarion I will personally send Sutter to your house to stare at you sternly. You have all been warned.And it bears repeating.
If you want good drow in your campaign, go for it. We don't want good drow NPCs in Golarion at this point, so that's why we're being pretty strict about it. And Second Darkness doesn't work well with drow PCs anyway.
What does Sutter like on pizza? I shall leave the porch light on.
The thing most people who play drow forget is they are still DROW.
Even my favorite PC (CN drow ftr/rog) was prone to doing whatever it took to destroy his foes, his heart was in the right place but he saw nothing wrong with poisons, or slitting a sleeping enemys throat while they slept... the rest of the group often said "I'm just glad he's on our side."
Just to be clear, I'm not calling out any DM of mine on this.
But there are plenty of horror stories of this sort of thing.One long-running thread in the Dragon Magazine forums ran for years, with examples of;
- the ranger, forced to defend a sleeping wyvern, until it awoke and proved it was a bloodthirsty beast,
- the paladin, forced to stabilise the wounds of every last surviving cultist, and lead them round for the rest of the adventure in a giant conga-line, until they could be walked hundreds of miles back to face trial,
- the druids, forced to portray multiple personality disorders ('Did you do some good yesterday? Save some villagers? Well, guess what? Today, you have to kill them! It's essential to Preserve the Balance!').
- and many, many, oh, god, so many more....
Those are some pretty stupid examples. But I've seen just as bad in games and in many of the D&D novels.
In fact, I've seen Salvatore use some pretty infantile alignment-type stuff. Like the book where they're nowhere near civilization, and they find evidence of hill giants heading to the Spine of the World. And Drizz't essentially says that they're evil, so they must kill them.It's not that group of people would just decide to off a group of wandering hill giants that bothers me. I can think of many reasons that make total sense to do it. It's that Salvatore basically said, "They're evil! We're good! Let's go kill them!"
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Just to be clear, I'm not calling out any DM of mine on this.
But there are plenty of horror stories of this sort of thing.One long-running thread in the Dragon Magazine forums ran for years, with examples of;
- the ranger, forced to defend a sleeping wyvern, until it awoke and proved it was a bloodthirsty beast,
- the paladin, forced to stabilise the wounds of every last surviving cultist, and lead them round for the rest of the adventure in a giant conga-line, until they could be walked hundreds of miles back to face trial,
- the druids, forced to portray multiple personality disorders ('Did you do some good yesterday? Save some villagers? Well, guess what? Today, you have to kill them! It's essential to Preserve the Balance!').
- and many, many, oh, god, so many more....
Yeah, but they also published an article entitled "Good isn't Stupid: Paladins and Rangers", written by the Man himself, in issue #33. ;)
I think it was in "Best of" #2 as well.
So let's say you were going to have a PC play a non-evil drow. As DM(and considering the beta rules) what racial stats would you give the drow?
I'd keep the stats as they are but lower the LA by 1. I'd also allow a "Sunwalker" feat that gets rid of the penalties in light.
What happens to the Drow that are forced to flee their home city? Are they supposed to wander around the under dark until they're eaten by hook horrors or whatever? You gotta figure that eventually, some of them are going to have to hit the surface. Once there
...what happens next is whether SD has taken place in your campaign yet or not. Because if it hasn't, those drow are dead as soon as the Lantern Bearers find out that they're here.
, the whole domineering, back stabby schtick that they've got going isn't gonna fly quite so well. They're going to need friends to help them survive and not get lynched.
Not necessarily. A small group (as little as, say, three) can make it ont he surface without outside help. Of course, they do have to stick together to benefit from their numbers.
Still, they could also try to insinuate themselves into other cultures, using disguises and the like to blend in.
drows
The plural of drow is drow, not drows.
(I know, I'm a Spelling Asmodean, but what can I say?)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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" Of course , there are GOOD drows. a friend of a friend has met a bard who adventured with one!'
In fact , just the rumour that there might be GOOD drow is one of the more potent weapon in the Evil arsenal drow ... And Charm Person is a great spell to convince people so .
Flaw with that in Golarion. People who spout off like that are likely to get elves in their house in the middle of the night, and they're not there to cobble.
Pre-SD, the elves are going to extremes to crush any rumours of drow, dark elves, etc.
And I agree with Kae-yos (shudder) There has to be redemption. it doesn't have to be easy, it shouldn't be as easy as 'dipping the demon in the care-bear pool of light' but it should be there.
...what happens next is whether SD has taken place in your campaign yet or not. Because if it hasn't, those drow are dead as soon as the Lantern Bearers find out that they're here.
Ah, I see. I haven't played or read through SD yet. I'm fairly uninformed when it comes to the Drow of Golarian. I was mostly making generalizations about drow in.... um.... general..
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" Of course , there are GOOD drows. a friend of a friend has met a bard who adventured with one!'
In fact , just the rumour that there might be GOOD drow is one of the more potent weapon in the Evil arsenal drow ... And Charm Person is a great spell to convince people so .
Flaw with that in Golarion. People who spout off like that are likely to get elves in their house in the middle of the night, and they're not there to cobble.
Pre-SD, the elves are going to extremes to crush any rumours of drow, dark elves, etc.
And I agree with Kae-yos (shudder) There has to be redemption. it doesn't have to be easy, it shouldn't be as easy as 'dipping the demon in the care-bear pool of light' but it should be there.
The problem is, if I'm reading all of this right (the fluff from the Golarion books), a normal elf can transform into a drow if their soul grows dark enough.
So, if a drow were to be redeemed, wouldn't they revert to a normal elf?
And I agree with Kae-yos (shudder)
Relax, we still disagree about the way my name is spelled. By the way, it's "Kae'Yoss" or "KaeYoss" for short.
The problem is, if I'm reading all of this right (the fluff from the Golarion books), a normal elf can transform into a drow if their soul grows dark enough.
So, if a drow were to be redeemed, wouldn't they revert to a normal elf?
So, if a drow were to be redeemed, wouldn't they revert to a normal elf?
Nope. One-way street. As stupid as it is otherwise, "once you go black, you never go back" does apply here.
Either that, or there just hasn't been a single case of a drow becoming good enough to revert.
Note that there's more to the transformation than just being evil. There's dark energies involved. That means you'd need light energies to become a normal elf again.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Relax, we still disagree about the way my name is spelled. By the way, it's "Kae'Yoss" or "KaeYoss" for short.
And I agree with Kae-yos (shudder)
Umm, KaeYoss is the English version and Kae-yos is the American?
Note that there's more to the transformation than just being evil. There's dark energies involved. That means you'd need light energies to become a normal elf again.
To use 3rd party products (gods, I get a giggle when I can call WotC products '3pp') Savage Species has a ritual where a typed creature can exchange that type for the opposite (making a Succubus the 'Outsider (good)' type for example).
I'd assume something similar, likely with a priest or holy site of Saranae, would work. Or it would fry the drow, but he'd die 'free'.