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Spells: Up through second level these are find. After that the bard lags behind everyone else too much. Lets give 0 third level spells at 6th level, 0 fourth level spells at 8th level and 1 at 9th level, 0 fifth level spells at 11th level and 1 at 12th, and finally open up sixth level spells at 14th level with 0 and 1 at 15th.May I also suggest adding more direct damage to the spell list as well. They have none. Even a Cause X Wounds would be nice at this point. I think the lack of spell "punch" is a drawback for the "Ultimate Generalist" class.
Or the ability to convert any spell into "raw" sonic damage, i.e. 1D6 per spell level?
My top five list:
1. More/better music
2. Better spell access (spell list is ok)
3. Perform as a class ability instead of eating up skills
4. None musical abilities just a dash really but something better than the trash the bard has now maybe two or three bonus feats or something.
5. I'm done, you can keep this one.
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My top five list:
1. More/better music
2. Better spell access (spell list is ok)
3. Perform as a class ability instead of eating up skills
4. None musical abilities just a dash really but something better than the trash the bard has now maybe two or three bonus feats or something.
5. I'm done, you can keep this one.
Beyond agreeing with your above points, I went through a couple splatbooks and decided to beat up 2 bard PrC's (Lyric Thaumaturge & Seeker of the Song) and take their stuff (as well as a nifty feat). These are the things from those PrC's that I think the bard should have:
Rapture of the Song (Su): This was an ability gained at ECL 10 that granted +2 AC while performing, at 14 it also granted +2 on saves, at 17 DR 2/-, and at 20 it granted the benefits of freedom of movement.
Spell Secret: - this ability granted extras spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list
At ECL 9th, gain one extra 1st & one 2nd-level spell known.
At ECL 12th, gain one extra 3rd & one 4th-level spell known.
At ECL 15th, gain one extra 5th & one 6th-level spell known.
MELODIC CASTING - this feat allowed a bard to make a Perform check in place of Concentration and cast spells/activate magic items while using bardic music.
if they really want it to be a support character that fills in where it is needed, then I propose they add an ability along these lines...
Bardic Emulation: The experience of your travels allows you to spend a Bardic Performance usage to gain various effects. May only spend bardic performance in this way 1/day at level ??, 2/day at level ??, 3/day at ??, 4/day at ??, and 5/day at ??. Each ability can only be chosen once.
Gain rage and rage points as a barbarian of CL - 3
Add a cleric, druid, or sorcerer/wizard spell to spells known list of the highest level the bard can cast for a number of rounds = CL
May channel energy as a cleric of CL - 3 for a number of rounds = CL
May wild shape as a druid of CL - 3 for a number of rounds = CL
Gain bonuses from weapon training with 1 weapon as a fighter of CL-3 for a number of rounds = CL
May flurry of blows as a monk of CL-3 for a number of rounds = CL
May smite evil as a paladin of CL-3 for a number of rounds = CL
May sneak attack as a rogue of CL-3 for a number of rounds = CL
May form an arcane bond with an object as a wizard for a number of rounds = CL, if lost or destroyed cannot use Emulation in this way for 2 weeks
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I thought about that myself, but there is no resistance to sonic in D20 D&D, and (a) that's what we're supposed to base everything one and (b) it would be far too powerful. As it stands, with my system anyway, everything would fall under "speech" reliant, thus susceptible to Bard countersongs, which doesn't really count as power type, as such, but it's still pretty tough.
Plus, if other spell-like effects are selected and slotted into the Performance lines at those levels, based on power dished out, effect, etc., then Bards would effectively get more "spells", but they'd be able to do it more often, essentially effectively "casting spells" every round or whatever, but it's actually a Bard Performance based off a skill check that generates any DC to resist the performance.
Let me ask the forum more directly: What abilities should the Bard have, and at what level? I've seen stuff like granting an extra Attack, increasing Move by 10', granting Rage, all sorts of things. How about giving me a list of your top five powers you'd like to see the Bard have.
a) Yet there are spells and effects that inflict Sonic damage, and also spells that grant protection to it. Also note that there are feats (i.e. Energy Substitution and such) that let you convert any energy damage (e.g. from a Fireball) to Sonic damage.
b) The Archmage PrC could convert spells into "raw" magical damage (Arcane Blast?) and it did not "break" the game or feel overpowered. And what about the Warlock?
My point is that this kind of effects and mechanics already *exist* in the 3E rules, and I think the bard sorely needs something like this. As he stands now, he's the "ultimate generalist", who often shines better out of combat. In combat, he might get some nice abilities at 11+ levels, but before that, his morale-boosting effects are (usually) covered by "buffs" cast by the cleric, druid, paladin or wizard. And as a combatant (both with melee and missile weapons) and a spellcaster he loses to other classes. In more combat-heavy campaigns, I think the only "fun" option to play a bard would be to multiclass into another core class or PrC (such as a Duelist or Arcane Archer). Of course, when they hit 20th level, they can pretty much kill one high-level monster or NPC (with "poor" WILL save progression) per round. Yet is the class balanced? Is it fun to play at every level?
But it's not just about damage -- I'd also like to see bards gaining "Musical Focus" and more Performance-based talents/abilities.
The Problem with the Bard? It sucks. Yes I know it not eloquent or productiv to say it but it's true.
The scout? - Rogue. monks and rangers are better.
Skills? - Rogue are better. And possibly are rangers even better (don't need perform or charisma)
Buffs - Clercis are better....and druids are better, and wizards are better and Sorcerers are better.
Damage? - all other classes are better.
Social characters - rogues are just as good. Clerics and paladin can be just as good.
Bards. They are best at being not good at anything. Well they are good if you want to roleplay. .....but fights? No good.
And you can play a bard as a gnome - suck
And you can play a bard as a hafling - suck
And you can play a bard as a human - OK (bonus feat + skills + can use longbow)
And you can play a bard as a half-elf- kind of suck (skill focus perform is nice though)
and And you can play a bard ...but it sucks
- great spells? No
- Know many spells? - no
- Many spells per day - no
- Weapon damage - no good (and awful if you are gnome or hafling), no sneak, no strength, No longbow, no anything. Hurra my gnome bard hit you with his rapier or use his shortbow.
- Damage spells - no
- Good AC? - no
- Cast spells and use shield - no
- good BAB - no
- MAD character - yes
Wanna be social? Why play a bard if you can just as well play a rougue / wizard or a rogue/ beguiler.....or why not just play a Beguiler. ..or a charisma cleric.
Bard spells? How great are the DC? The highest spell level they get is level 6. Hurra!
Bards suck, Bards suck, Bards suck, Bards suck, Bards suck, Bards suck.
I would love to play a bard. If the were any good.
and at level 20? I don't care about level 20 I care about:
level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, ...etc etc.
Bards suck, Bards suck, Bards suck, Bards suck, Bards suck, Bards suck.
Zark aka TomJohn
I would suggest using all of your Bardic Music at a beginning of a day, with each ability only usable once. The bard then will role a perform check that determines how big the bonuses will be for the bardic music (like, say an 18 will give a +2 for Inspire Courage etc.) Then the effect lasts for the entire day. That way, the bardic buffs will be more useful than spells at the same level because it is basically automatic. Also, it gives more time for the bard to do other fun things.
<long post>Please, tell me how you really feel about the bard.
I actually like the bard. Or the idea. I usually play rogue, cleric or Paladin so I tend to focus on social charecters. I think the bard could be really funny to play but let's face it. The game is a lot about battles. And the bard simply isn't good enough. I think they should get more spells per day and they should - like the beguiler- be able to use the whole list. Take See Invisibility. Why on earth is it at spell level 3? Isn't divination a bit of a bard thing (lore and all that). Yes I know enchantment and ilussion are also the bard thing. Better spells, more spells known and more spells per day. Also: A great spell at a lower spell level isn't that good because the DC will suck. Give them level 7, 8 and 9 spells.
Or perhaps add a lot of spell like Abilitys. SM 7, 8 and 9.Give them a feat tree like rangers but focus on spells.
Summon or enchantment. Feats like Augment Summoning or spell focus enchanment...or something. Let's face it Summon Monster VI is a joke at level 16.
The 3/4 BAB is useless cause they can't do any damage with weapons - so full BAB won't help.
Jason and Paizo need to sit down and have a serious think. Do it different - do it right.
Zark aka TomJohn.
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I actually like the bard. Or the idea. I usually play rogue, cleric or Paladin so I tend to focus on social charecters. I think the bard could be really funny to play but let's face it. The game is a lot about battles. And the bard simply isn't good enough. I think they should get more spells per day and they should - like the beguiler- be able to use the whole list. Take See Invisibility. Why on earth is it at spell level 3? Isn't divination a bit of a bard thing (lore and all that). Yes I know enchantment and ilussion are also the bard thing. Better spells, more spells known and more spells per day. Also: A great spell at a lower spell level isn't that good because the DC will suck. Give them level 7, 8 and 9 spells.
Or perhaps add a lot of spell like Abilitys. SM 7, 8 and 9.
Give them a feat tree like rangers but focus on spells.
Summon or enchantment. Feats like Augment Summoning or spell focus enchanment...or something. Let's face it Summon Monster VI is a joke at level 16.The 3/4 BAB is useless cause they can't do any damage with weapons - so full BAB won't help.
Jason and Paizo need to sit down and have a serious think. Do it different - do it right.
Zark aka TomJohn.
Speaking on spells, since I'm bored and that seems like a good tangent for now, what with the piss-poor spell list available to the bard, I don't see any reason why their spellcasting has to be so crippled. Lowering the levels of spells for bards has no impact when they get their spell levels so late, with so few spells known/per day, and with a max of 6 spell levels.
I would definitely prefer the bard gain full 9 level spell progression (meaning they would get their spells at roughly the same time as everyone else) and include the sonic & illusion spells that were omitted from the bard:
Wail of the Banshee (sorceror/wizard 9), weird, screen, scintillating pattern, phantasmal killer, invisibility (mass), illusory wall, color spray, simulacrum, shadow evocation (greater), shadow conjuration (greater), shades, phantom trap
I say this even though the pidgeon-holing of the bard into the role of piss-poor illusionist angers me to no end. As I have said before, the 2 PrCs Lyric Thaumaturge and Seeker of the Song are some of my favorite takes on the bard and I would love it if either of these PrCs were murdered and assimilated by the bard.
EDIT: Odd idea, given that bards have that 3/4 BAB, why not let them put it to better use than the sorceror/wizard by giving them ranged touch spells? (this would need more spells per day/known in order to be effective though...)
One of my happiest accomplishments with the 3.x version of the bard was tricking my DM into believing that Countersong effected Charm spells (since they require verbal commands), we never faced a charm spell since that day.
My top five list:
1. More/better music
2. Better spell access (spell list is ok)
3. Perform as a class ability instead of eating up skills
4. None musical abilities just a dash really but something better than the trash the bard has now maybe two or three bonus feats or something.
5. I'm done, you can keep this one.
I like most of this but I don't think it's enough. To me the spell list is not OK.
"Perform as a class ability instead of eating up skills" - yes :-)...or more skill pointsZark aka TomJohn
stuffSpeaking on spells, since I'm bored and that seems like a good tangent for now, what with the piss-poor spell list available to the bard, I don't see any reason why their spellcasting has to be so crippled. Lowering the levels of spells for bards has no impact when they get their spell levels so late, with so few spells known/per day, and with a max of 6 spell levels.
I would definitely prefer the bard gain full 9 level spell progression (meaning they would get their spells at roughly the same time as everyone else) and include the sonic & illusion spells that were omitted from the bard:
Wail of the Banshee (sorceror/wizard 9), weird, screen, scintillating pattern, phantasmal killer, invisibility (mass), illusory wall, color spray, simulacrum, shadow evocation (greater), shadow conjuration (greater), shades, phantom trap
I say this even though the pidgeon-holing of the bard into the role of piss-poor illusionist angers me to no end. As I have said before, the 2 PrCs Lyric Thaumaturge and Seeker of the Song are some of my favorite takes on the bard and I would love it if either of these PrCs were murdered and assimilated by the bard.
EDIT: Odd idea, given that bards have that 3/4 BAB, why not let them put it to better use than the sorceror/wizard by giving them ranged touch spells? (this would need more spells per day/known in order to be effective though...)[...]
I agree with you. But I do thínk they sould get something other classes don't have. Better songs and some Spell like abilities.
And some bonus feats.And the 3/4 BAB. Whats it suppose to be good for? Melee? No strength bad AC. or is it the short bow. LOL
Zark aka TomJohn.
cliff my comment on your new system is "interesting but not happening."
My reasoning is:
1. Backwards compatibility, it's not there and your rewrite would cause problems with non OGL stuff,
2. the fact it's so complicated,
3. and it's a bit late in the game to completely add a new mechanic into the system.
I like your idea, alot it's what the bard should have been... but I can't see it making the cut becuase of the break with what has come before it, and how late in the design focus it is.
Somewhere, out there in the expanse of D&D boards - someone came up with this idea for Bardic Music:
Every time a bard used a bardic music ability - they had to make a Perform check. The higher the result, the better it got.
Ex. Inspire Courage gave a +1 for every 10 on the skill check result.
(I just made that up, that's not the system the person designed.. just a rough example).
I really liked it since it made taking ranks in Perform actually worthwhile for the bard and it was actually useful to invest those skill points rather than a requirement.
I also like the idea someone mentioned about Bards gaining an extra skill point for Perform each level - though doesn't that just mean a bard always has max ranks in the skill? (Barring multiclassing of course).
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2) Unique Spellcasting (Spell Performance): Bards no longer get "spells per day". Instead, they get an increased number of Bardic Performances per day (say ((1+Cha modifier)X level)/day) that they can apply to either use for traditional Bardic Performance (Inspire Courage, etc.) or to cast their spells. Spells are cast at 1 Bardic Performance per spell. Metamagic Feats may still be used, but increase the number of Bardic Performances used by the number of levels by which it would normally raise the caster level. The bard would use a Perform check in place of a Spellcraft check to maintain concentration. I imagine it would also increase the difficulty of other spellcasters to identify the spells being cast.
Hopefully, this gets some creative juices flowing.
Hmmm... that is what I have also been thinking about. Although I would probably make it work via "Performance Points", or whatever (i.e. similar to 'Rage Points'). The trouble is whether to include any bard spell list at all, or would he draw the spells for his performances from the wiz/sor list?
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Also, the Rules Compendium noted that all too many Divine "buffs" use MORALE bonus, instead of Sacred/Profane. Maybe if the bonus type for cleric spells were changed, the bard's abilities would become more useful?
All too often I've seen the frustration on the face of a bard's player, as he realizes that his abilities don't stack with the cleric's Bless/Chant/Recotation/Etc. And that is something that would be quite easy to mend, actually.
Thoughts?
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Although Cliff will probably argue with this suggestion, I'm still re-posting it! ;)
What if the bard could convert his Performances/Performance Points into direct Sonic damage dice (i.e. 1D6 for 1 level/use/point) in the same way Archmage can convert his spells into "raw" magical energy?
And, maybe there should be some sort of 'Musical Bond' for the bard?
Backwards Compatibility is good and shine, but sometimes, one must realize that a concept is just corrupted from the very base.
The Bard just offers several unanswered questions:
1) Why is he a spont-caster? Has he the same magical ancestors like the sorcerer? Why doesn't he get Bloodline powers? Is the blood weakend? So is every "weak-sorcerer" automatically a bard?
2) Are his "songs" magic? They can dispel magic, can their effects be dispelled too? Or is this a completely new/different type of magic? Like Runemagic, Names-magic, something like Music-magic?
But it also functions with performance skills like orating, or comedy!
3) The Bard might be something like the Rogue/Mage. But then, why can the Rogue disable magical traps and the Bard cannot?
There might be more points, but those are my main concerns.
Actually, I can't see any thing the Bard offers that couldn't be either done by a rogue or a mage.
You could just drop the whole class and:
1) Make Bardic Knowledge (aka Lore) and Jack-of-all-trades Rogue Talents (where they belong anyway)
2) Create a feat that allows a wizard/sorcerer to replace the somatic and vocal components by dance/instrument and singing/orating - with the benefit that it's harder to recognize that he is actually casting a spell.
Maybe make some other feats like lingering song/spell to make those enchantments last longer if used via "Magical Music".
3) You want to play a Rogue/Mage? Go for Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster
More spells - why? Better play a Sorcerer, wizard or a Beguiler.
The Bard is hopeless. Make it an NPC class or a prestige class or make the songs an otion for rogues as rogue talents.
Bards suck, Bards suck, Bards suck, Bards suck, Bards suck, Bards suck.
/Zark aka TomJohn
I have an idea for fixing the bard, and it's really simple. Give the bard the union of the bard spell list and the sorcerer spell list. 2e bards were like that and they worked great.
Of course I've never played bards as performers. (Don't get me wrong, Elan is awesome!) But in game, I've always used them as jack-of-all-trades types, more like a fighter/mage/thief/cleric with a whip.
Thanks for the inciteful and constructive comments.
<sigh>
Fair enough. But Irony isn't much better.
If you don't find: "Make it an NPC class or a prestige class or make the songs an otion for rogues as rogue talents" constructive well OK.You want more?
First of all. I do think the Bard as it is now is hopeless. And saying so is constructive because I truely think the Bard need a total rework and not just some changes here and there. And a total rework won't happen because of the Backwards compatibility Straitjacket. So again: I think the bard is hopeless, but I don't want it to be. I'd would like to see Paizo do a total rework on it. My thoughts on how?
The first step in a rework process: What is the Bard suppose to be?
Melee class?
Archer class?
Spell caster class? (buff, healer, deviner or damage or what?)
Rogue class?
Bardic music class?
My thought is:
- Spells? To be frank I don't see better spells or more spells as the solution. Better play other spellcasters. Yes that's my firm belief. I don't believe in fixing the bard by adding more spells per day or/and more known spells or better spells. Other spell casters do it better.
- I don't believe in giving it full BAB and making it a light armor full BAB class - That's the ranger.
So make it a prestige class and tie it to the rogue (or light armored fighters) or make it an alternative class to rogue that can find and disable traps. If not, then remove all spells and focus on bardic music and spell like abilities and some bonus feats.
Removing spells and giving it spell like abilities. It's different from other casters and it makes it more or less useless to dip into the bard just to get the spell list (and thus be able to use wands). This way it will be possible to boost The Bards 'casting abilities' without worring about power dipping.
Create better and more flexible songs, and see to it that Bards do not have to max out 9 different perfom skills to get 9 different forms of entertainment.
Give them ability boosts like the Dragon Disciple and/or give them auras like the Paladin or Dragon Shaman.
And give them some bonus feats.
...but I don't know. Perhaps I'm all wrong. I could add posts again and again. The Problem remains:
- what is the Bard suppose to be?
If you find the answer you're on your way to the sollution.
/ Zark aka TomJohn.
Monks get more attacks with flurry of blows and deal more damage
Clerics have Divine Power & Divine Favor plus a whole host of really GOOD buffs
Bards... sing a little song getting + 4 to hit and + 4 to damage... at most, which by the way benefits everyone else too.
You say that last like it's a bad thing, or a small thing. Respectfully, if that's what you think, you havn't played a non-caster class nearly enough.
Also, Bards can cast Divine Favor and Divine Power too, through wands and Use Magic Device - though, honestly, Haste is comparable to Divine Power since it affects the entire group and doesn't stack with DP, and Bards get Haste on their spell list.
As for Monks doing more damage - no, not really. You're forgetting that Bards A) benefit from magical weapons, and B) improve the whole party's attack and damage rolls. A stereotypical party with a fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric will deal FAR more damage with a bard than a monk as their 5th party member - and a pary missing one of those other four could use the bard to fill any of those holes. Though, I admit, the Fighter role is hardest for them to fill and pretty much requires splats.
Make the inspire line of performances a swift action to maintain
That's a nerf. They're currently a "no action required" to maintain. Only the bardic performances that specifically state that they require concentration to maintain do so. As of the beta document, that is only Inspire Competence, Song of Freedom, and Soothing Performance. None of the other Bardic Performances require any actions past the standard action to start them.
Honestly, bards are absolutely fine. You can build them to be good combat characters (especially with the d8 HD now) and good out-of-combat characters at the same time, which is something not every class can say (*coughFightercough*). That's even with just the SRD; once you get into even just a couple supplements bards become incredibly strong.
Respectfully, if that's what you think, you havn't played a non-caster class nearly enough.
What do you know? I have played all kind of charecters I agree with Abraham spalding. No need to be condescending just because you don't agree with Abraham.
Bards can cast Divine Favor and Divine Power too, through wands and Use Magic Device".
Well whose gonna use a divine favor with a caster level of 15? And whose gonna spend money on a wand of Divine Power ? And UMD can fail.
As for Monks doing more damage - no, not really. You're forgetting that Bards A) benefit from magical weapons
So does Monks and every others class.
and B) improve the whole party's attack and damage rolls. A stereotypical party with a fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric will deal FAR more damage with a bard than a monk as their 5th party member
No.
- and a pary missing one of those other four could use the bard to fill any of those holes. Though, I admit, the Fighter role is hardest for them to fill and pretty much requires splats.
This last bit here i just plain silly. I think you are way of base.
Fill the hole of the rouge without trapfinding? - NoFill the hole of the cleric? - No.
Fill the hole of the fighter - No (MAD charecter, light armor, 3/4 BAB no bonus feat)
Fill the hole of the wizard - No.
Make the inspire line of performances a swift action to maintain
That's a nerf.
I agree with you here.
Honestly, bards are absolutely fine.
Honestly, they are not.
/Zark
A stereotypical party with a fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric [...]
...well one more thing.
The monk isn't that great.I agree.But a Bard as a 5:th party member? I rather pick a Druid, or a Paladin or one more Cleric or a Sorcerer or a Barbarian or one more Wizard..... not a Bard and not a Monk.
/Zark
Agreed which I think is the easiest test to see if the bard is good enough... again I come up with the answer of no.
However where we differ is I think the basics from 3.5 can be used and improved upon, and Zark thinks it's a lost cause and that we should start all over on this class (not a bad idea... I just don't think it is nessecary).
Agreed which I think is the easiest test to see if the bard is good enough... again I come up with the answer of no.
[...]
What do you mean?
Zark thinks it's a lost cause and that we should start all over on this class (not a bad idea... I just don't think it is nessecary)
Glad you understand me even if you don't agree
:-)
I left out a comma, it should read:
Agreed, which ....
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What I meant:
I agree with your thought (I stated it eariler too) that if a bard doesn't work in a four person party it won't work in a 5, 6, 7 or more person party, you are better off without it at all becuase it's not good enough.
Which is why I think paizo should do what they can and add more now. It's not like any of the suggestions presented so far are going to competely over power the bard even if taken together... which maybe a sign you could be right (though I'm not willing to give in to that yet!).
I left out a comma, it should read:
Agreed, which ....What I meant:
I agree with your thought (I stated it eariler too) that if a bard doesn't work in a four person party it won't work in a 5, 6, 7 or more person party, you are better off without it at all becuase it's not good enough.
Which is why I think paizo should do what they can and add more now. It's not like any of the suggestions presented so far are going to competely over power the bard even if taken together... which maybe a sign you could be right (though I'm not willing to give in to that yet!).
Thanx för the clarification. My english is not that good.
What if the Bard got trap finding and Disable Device as class skill. Then a party could leave out a rogue and use a bard?
...I don't expect you to 'give in' if you don't want to
:-)
Having trapfinding as at least an option would be good in my opinion. They've had it in every other edition they've shown in to date, and I never understood why 3.x left it out, the rogue had/has enough to differentiate from the bard that it shouldn't be the only class that can see a trap.
My main thoughts are a bit faster spell progression, more music, and a dash of generalist/ grab bag of stuff abilities. I really don't expect the HP, BAB, Saves, equipment, or the fundemental nature of bards to change... I just want it all enhanced some more.
Wait... what if instead of giving them "Trapfinding" we gave them "Song of the Undisturbed path"
[...]
Whithout Trapfinding. How would a Bard find/know where the trap is and then bypassing it using Undisturbed path?
Undisturbed path is more of a Disable Device thing, isn't is?If not: The Bard can't wast all his Bardic Music on searching for traps.
Also if the Bard got to use his/her Bardic music to search for traps (cool idea) the bard would have to hava many, many, many more bardic music per day.
I would say this thread is the most importent of all the class threads. And now I think we got a solution in another thread. The solution is Bard Talents (and add some minor patches/fixes). Check this out.